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[ejoslin]

The_Abyss wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Sure is. But Isolde was charged with the care of those people. She broke the law many times, and because of this nearly wiped out most of Redcliff. She had no concern for other people's children, or parents, or anything. And would not acknowledge how much suffering her actions caused for these people who should have come first.

*shrug* She's human. Its always easy being the armchair general and say "she should have done so and so" when you aren't actually experiencing the situation yourself firsthand. 90% of the people condemning her would probably do some kind of mistake (perhaps not as bad as hers, yes, she was pretty stupid) if they were in her shoes. Like I said, rational thought is not always possible with regards to your loved ones when something pops up.

Most of the people she was charged to protect DIED because of her actions.  That's beyond just "stupid."  She made illegal choices knowingly, and as things spiraled out of control, she kept clinging to these awful choices. 

So I give her the chance to redeem herself.  It doesn't bring all those people back, but at least it prevents any chance of any more suffering.

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

The_Abyss wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Sure is. But Isolde was charged with the care of those people. She broke the law many times, and because of this nearly wiped out most of Redcliff. She had no concern for other people's children, or parents, or anything. And would not acknowledge how much suffering her actions caused for these people who should have come first.

*shrug* She's human. Its always easy being the armchair general and say "she should have done so and so" when you aren't actually experiencing the situation yourself firsthand. 90% of the people condemning her would probably do some kind of mistake (perhaps not as bad as hers, yes, she was pretty stupid) if they were in her shoes. Like I said, rational thought is not always possible with regards to your loved ones when something pops up.

Most of the people she was charged to protect DIED because of her actions.  That's beyond just "stupid."  She made illegal choices knowingly, and as things spiraled out of control, she kept clinging to these awful choices. 

So I give her the chance to redeem herself.  It doesn't bring all those people back, but at least it prevents any chance of any more suffering.

Exactly. In some ways, Isolde is to the Arling what Loghain is to Ferelden. She engages in illegal activities. When they spiral out of control, she compounds them by significantly lowering the survival rate of those under her care again. And then she accuses everyone else, lies about the situation, and almost ends the life of the one she wanted to protect.

[Mlai00]

It's the same as knowing your kid has schizophrenia, but attempting to hide him in your house rather than taking him to the doctors to get him treatment. "Omigawd, my son isn't normal! No I can fix it!" Isolde was in simple denial.

Ofc, there's also the selfish aspect of "Oh noes my son cannot inherit?! Eamon might take another wife!!" I really don't think giving Connor to the Circle means him never seeing his parents again. As said, the Circle is only a day's ride away. She's a noble she doesn't have to work; she can go visit her son in a carriage every single week. She can build a villa in that fishing town next to the Circle, if she wants to.

So, you might think she was acting out of motherly love... but really, she was acting out of more selfish and material reasons.

[Tarua]

Well, I am not sure if she would be allowed to see her son that often in the tower, from what I understood from Wynne they grow up very isolated. And I completely disagree comparing her to Loghain, he knew completely well what he was doing and that many people would die because of it, Isolde never intended anybody to die or to suffer. The dieing started after Connor was possessed, there was nothing she could do to stop it after her mistakes had been made.
I don't claim she was not responsible in some part, only that what she did was done out of love and stupidity, no harm was ever intended.

[ejoslin]

Mlai00 wrote...

It's the same as knowing your kid has schizophrenia, but attempting to hide him in your house rather than taking him to the doctors to get him treatment. "Omigawd, my son isn't normal! No I can fix it!" Isolde was in simple denial.
Ofc, there's also the selfish aspect of "Oh noes my son cannot inherit?! Eamon might take another wife!!" I really don't think giving Connor to the Circle means him never seeing his parents again. As said, the Circle is only a day's ride away. She's a noble she doesn't have to work; she can go visit her son in a carriage every single week. She can build a villa in that fishing town next to the Circle, if she wants to.
So, you might think she was acting out of motherly love... but really, she was acting out of more selfish and material reasons.

Hmmmm, and there would also be a difference if your son had a severe mental illness, and learning your son had killed hundreds of people and buried the bodies all over your yard, and has let you know he will keep on killing until there's no one else left alive. There comes a point where "I love him and want to protect him," goes beyond that and you become an accessory.

[Sabriana]

Tarua wrote...

Well, I am not sure if she would be allowed to see her son that often in the tower, from what I understood from Wynne they grow up very isolated. And I completely disagree comparing her to Loghain, he knew completely well what he was doing and that many people would die because of it, Isolde never intended anybody to die or to suffer. The dieing started after Connor was possessed, there was nothing she could do to stop it after her mistakes had been made.
I don't claim she was not responsible in some part, only that what she did was done out of love and stupidity, no harm was ever intended.

Yes, she should have known that hiding a mage and hiring an apostate could very well lead to utter disaster. She knows first-hand about mages, she has several in her family.

The comparison is valid. Bad decisions lead to disaster - lead to more bad decisions - lead to utter disaster, and if the PC warden doesn't stop it the populace dies.

Both think their positions entitles them, both defend their decisions to the bitter end. Teagan finally manages to make her see that she is to blame - solely, the PC whacks reason into Loghain. Neither ever stop and think about the havoc they are wreaking.

And furthermore, I didn't want to touch on this, but Mlai00  makes a good point. The first thing out of Alistair's/Jowan's mouth when asked why Isolde wants to hide her sons' magic is "A mage can't inherit..." It struck me as very telling, but because it's just conjecture and a gut feeling of mine, I never brought it up.

Jowan: "It infuriated her that Eamon would do the right thing."  Great girl that. Wonderful. My first choice for a trusted friend. Really.

[ejoslin]

filaminstrel wrote...

Well, I don't know what else to say. Like I said, her actions aren't the only actions that "set all the following events in motion." And continuing to call them criminal is rather meaningless considered what is considered a crime in Ferelden-- apostates are also illegal, but that doesn't stop most PCs from lugging one around for the whole game...

Hmmm, I could be wrong, but I don't think Morrigan was killing all the people the Grey Warden is charged to protect.  Did I miss something?

[The_Abyss]

ejoslin wrote...

The_Abyss wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Sure is. But Isolde was charged with the care of those people. She broke the law many times, and because of this nearly wiped out most of Redcliff. She had no concern for other people's children, or parents, or anything. And would not acknowledge how much suffering her actions caused for these people who should have come first.

*shrug* She's human. Its always easy being the armchair general and say "she should have done so and so" when you aren't actually experiencing the situation yourself firsthand. 90% of the people condemning her would probably do some kind of mistake (perhaps not as bad as hers, yes, she was pretty stupid) if they were in her shoes. Like I said, rational thought is not always possible with regards to your loved ones when something pops up.

Most of the people she was charged to protect DIED because of her actions.  That's beyond just "stupid."  She made illegal choices knowingly, and as things spiraled out of control, she kept clinging to these awful choices. 

So I give her the chance to redeem herself.  It doesn't bring all those people back, but at least it prevents any chance of any more suffering.

She loved her son - She didn't want to lose him. Personally to me that was the biggest reason she made those choices. Illegal? Yes. Many people in positions of power in history have made illegal choices. Were her son never a mage, she would probably have been a normal arlessa and nothing would have happened. Like I said - when it comes to someone you love, you will not always be able to do the right things.

Was she wrong for doing what she did? Yes. But personally she's to be pitied in my eyes, not condemned.

[ejoslin]

filaminstrel wrote...

That's only because Morrigan hasn't gotten emotional enough to rip a hole in the Fade, become possessed by a demon, and go on a killing rampage yet. But rest assured, by committing this illegal act, it's your fault when she does it.

Hmmm, and I think the moment that happened would be the moment Morrigan died.

Edit: But of course, it doesn't happen.  And as I think you said earlier, the Grey Wardens are not bound by the laws of the land.  My warden doesn't hide the apostate.  It's just that most realize that the Grey Warden business comes before everything else.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 01:28 .

[Sabriana]

Morrigan going on a killing spree certainly would be the PCs fault, and mine would stop her any which way they could. But she is an ally fighting the Blight. Ser Bryant's reaction to Morrigan's words should tell you something there. Isolde is prideful and selfish. Because when innocent people start dying because of misplaced pride and blind motherly love, it's wrong.

I have kids. I would do anything to protect them. But I would never take a route that I know is very dangerous. Dangerous to my kids and to those around them.

She is not an average woman, she is the arlessa. Those people are her people. Hiding a mage and hiring/hiding an apostate is illegal. It's against Chantry law. Breaking the law is a criminal act. No way to sugar-coat it.

[ejoslin]

filaminstrel wrote...

Your Warden also committed a criminal act by betraying Ferelden at Ostagar, for that matter (according to certain definitions of "criminal", that is ). My point is just that, what she did -- hire an apostate to train a mage in secret -- yes, these are "criminal" acts, but it seems this "crime" is being conflated with the crime of summoning an undead army to attack Redcliffe, for which only the Desire Demon herself is 100% culpable. You might say, what she did was criminal precisely because it often leads to such demonic scenarios, and I would agree... and that's why I would say she's partially responsible.

I suppose "meaningless" doesn't quite describe the use of the word "criminal" there, as I originally described it. My mistake.

Hmmmm, I say she's fully responsible because, well, she's the ARLESSA and she is willing to let her demon-possessed son kill with impunity rather than handing him over to the templars.  What do you think would happen to any other parent who was willing to let her child do such a thing?  Her dying to stop any more risk to anyone else is fitting, it's right, and it's a shame that it didn't happen before all the elves got their ears cut off and fed to the dogs . . .

[Sabriana]

Yeah. After more than half the village and castle is dead/turned undead. And after she lures Teagan to the abomination. As soon as she realized that Connor has become an abomination, she should have tried to get to the templars. She of all people should know better. Apparently it took a while for the demon to perhaps get used to the mortal world. Jowan alludes to that. She had the time, and the opportunity. Instead she imprisons Jowan and tortures him.

She's the Arlessa. There are no excuses. I know you don't see it that way, and discussing it is pointless. You think her actions are excusable. I look at the dead, the doomed, the terrified, and the orphans, and say it is inexcusable. There is no way my PC will risk going to the tower - ever. Isolde set everything in motion - my PC agrees with Teagan there - and she will need to stop it. One way or the other.

[mousestalker]

What's intriguing is her sending the knights off on the quest to find the Sacred Urn. Part of it is obviously her grasping at straws. Every person who discusses it mentions how mad the quest is. But was she also trying to protect the knights from her son?



Does anyone have any information on the timing? I suspect that it is rather vague as the writers like to keep us guessing, which is of course, part of the fun.



What's also interesting is the question of how many of the servants survive the zombie apocalypse. Nigella in the Denerim palace mentions that she came up from Redcliffe, and there seem to be some servants in the castle after its liberation.

[Sabriana]

Or vice versa, Mousestalker, maybe she wanted to protect Connor from the knights. Or both. But I think the knights were sent out before the demon showed herself. Ser Perth was genuinely shocked at what he was seeing, and he mentioned that he just returned (as did his knight-buddies) from the quest and was a clueless as everyone else pertaining to the castle.



The castle has quite a few guards and servants after the situation was dealt with, you are right. Makes one wonder where all the numerous undead came from. Perhaps the demon was also emptying out graveyards all over the place.

[Mlai00]

My HN male warrior went to the Circle in order to save both Isolde and Connor. Partly because he's innately biased, subconsciously placing the welfare of nobles above that of commoners. Also because he's as naive as a Hollywood hero, thinking that heroism doesn't have to involve sacrifice.

I like how the game nailed a big sharp one to his heroic naivete at the end of the game. Oh no, I'm not talking about Morrigan. Anybody can see that one coming 10 miles away. I'm talking about when Alistair totally screwed you over, out of the blue. Well, "out of the blue" for those who are heroically naive.

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

What's intriguing is her sending the knights off on the quest to find the Sacred Urn. Part of it is obviously her grasping at straws. Every person who discusses it mentions how mad the quest is. But was she also trying to protect the knights from her son?

Or her son from the knights! (edit:  ninja'd by Sabriana )

Interesting that with certain dialogue options, you can convince Owyn the smith to pass on some gossip from his daughter about the arlessa using blood magic and having an affair with a mage.  Some people, at least, knew something was up.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mars 2010 - 04:41 .