285 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

I have seen a few threads where people have claimed that it is unlikely or nearly impossible to account for all of the variations possible with the suicide mission in Mass Effect 2, that it would be a logistical nightmare.

Not only is it not impossible, it's not such a daunting task as some people would make it.
Basically, whether or not a squad mate could return is binary - 0 or 1. Either 0 they did not survive or 1 they did survive.

Here is a clear way how deceased squad mates could be handled in Mass Effect 3. These possibilties are not mutually exclusive.

a)
Another NPC assumes their position. An example of this would be Urdnot
Wreav, who is the head of the Urdnot Clan if Wrex was killed. This NPC
would not be a squad mate.Quests involved with this NPC may be altered slightly or significantly due to the squad mate associated being deceased.

Some or all quests associated with the squad mate would either be
altered or unavailable. An example of this would be in Mass Effect 2 -
you cannot do the loyalty mission of the squad mate that was killed.
c)
The changes are minor or nonexistent so it almost appears as they had
never died. An example in Mass Effect 2 would be the news story of the
posthumous awards and dedications to the squad mate who died on Virmire.
d)
Not all squad mates would have to return. Zaeed, Kasumi, Samara and
other squad mates for example could very realistically have other
things to do.

Some people have noted because any squad mate can die in the suicide mission, those who did survive could not conceivably or realistically return or have large roles. This is very false. Take for example Ashley or Kaidan both of which can die, yet were said by Bioware as having a large role in Mass Effect 3, in addition to being squad mates. It is a fair point that Ashley or Kaidan have been interchangeable in their roles so far, as one or the other appears on Horizon. However, what I have said goes to show that potentially deceased characters can have large roles.

Bioware has created the high quality games of Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, both of which required ample amounts of effort and talent. It is not beyond their ability to have fan favorites return in ways that are satisfying to the fans.

In addition, as we have seen in Mass Effect 2, we have squad mates that can have important roles in the game or suicide mission yet do not exclude the possbility of having a satisfactory ending if they are not recruited.

Also take into account that the fans clearly want squad mates to return. And as Christina Norman has shown with her comments on additional RPG features in Mass Effect 3, Bioware listens to its fans.

social.bioware.com/892908/polls/2652/
This poll has almost 50% of respondents saying outright that they would not purchase Mass Effect 3 if the squad mates did not return. 8% do not know whether or not they buy the game. Clearly these characters make Mass Effect what it is.

social.bioware.com/892908/polls/1974/
This poll has over 80% of voters saying that Mass Effect 3 MUST have squad mates return in more significant ways than cameos.

Would like to hear your feedback on the subject matter.

Modifié par Collider, 15 mars 2010 - 05:18 .

[DirtyVagrant]

Bioware is gunna have a loooooooooot of dialogue to record.

[Collider]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Bioware is gunna have a loooooooooot of dialogue to record.

They had a lot of dialogue to record in Mass Effect 2. ~12 squad mates each with several lines.
Take out Zaeed, Kasumi, Mordin, Samara and add Ashley Kaidan and Liara and you have ~11 squad mates for ME3.

[JeanLuc761]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Bioware is gunna have a loooooooooot of dialogue to record.

While true, they'd have a lot MORE to record if they had to come up with 6-12 new characters in addition to cameo roles for the squadmates in ME1 and ME2.

Think about it; ME1 and ME2 characters are established, therefore you don't have to worry about their "recruit" dialogue and "getting to know them," at least not to the extent that a new character would warrant.  It would actually be less work to just do dialogue for the characters that already exist.

Also, I know I'm beating a dead horse here but my point still stands.  Mass Effect 2 was centered around building the best team the galaxy has ever seen.  If Mass Effect 3 sent them all off then they're essentially invalidating the entirety of ME2 and pissing off a massive percentage of their fanbase.  It's simply not a good idea.

[Collider]

JeanLuc761 wrote...
Think about it; ME1 and ME2 characters are established, therefore you don't have to worry about their "recruit" dialogue and "getting to know them," at least not to the extent that a new character would warrant.  It would actually be less work to just do dialogue for the characters that already exist.

Very true. It's easier to use existing characters rather than creating new ones with their personalities, voice actors, dialogue, writing, background and what have you.

Also, I know I'm beating a dead horse here but my point still stands.  Mass Effect 2 was centered around building the best team the galaxy has ever seen.  If Mass Effect 3 sent them all off then they're essentially invalidating the entirety of ME2 and pissing off a massive percentage of their fanbase.  It's simply not a good idea.

Very true. If squad mates don't return, the suicide mission is reduced to a gimmick.

[Akrylik]

here's how it works from bio's perspective:
make content for character, allowing for 2 possible ME3 scenarios
1.character is alive, apply content.
2.character is dead, DON'T APPLY THE CONTENT.
this gives the issue of subplot (squadies) cannot be significant to mainplot, with the exception of liara, who can't die no matter what you may try to attempt.
another prevalent issue i see here is how total losers on the suicide mission get punished with less content than those who kept their squadies alive.

Modifié par Akrylik, 14 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[Collider]

Akrylik wrote...
this gives the issue of subplot (squadies) cannot be significant to mainplot, with the exception of liara, who can't die not matter what you attempt.

That's not true. They can be significant. What they can't be is vital and necessary. Having Wrex alive may give you a Krogan army against the Reapers, but wouldn't mean that you still can't beat the game, may just mean it's easier to beat the reapers.

another prevalent issue i see here is how total losers on the suicide mission get punished with less content than those who kept their squadies alive.

They SHOULD get punished. Otherwise the suicide mission means jack ****. People can easily reload and do the suicide mission over.

[DirtyVagrant]

It's tough to predict what will happen in ME3, will we be rewarded for getting our team through the Suicide Mission or will they simply be regulated to cameo roles (I think it's safe to say that this is what they'll do with them at the MINIMUM, obviously, a lot of us want more than that). In a way, it could encourage people to go back to ME2 (buy it in the case for a few) and redo the mission to bolster your ranks better.

[JeanLuc761]

Collider wrote...

Akrylik wrote...
this gives the issue of subplot (squadies) cannot be significant to mainplot, with the exception of liara, who can't die not matter what you attempt.

That's not true. They can be significant. What they can't be is vital and necessary. Having Wrex alive may give you a Krogan army against the Reapers, but wouldn't mean that you still can't beat the game, may just mean it's easier to beat the reapers.

another prevalent issue i see here is how total losers on the suicide mission get punished with less content than those who kept their squadies alive.

They SHOULD get punished. Otherwise the suicide mission means jack ****. People can easily reload and do the suicide mission over.

Exactly.  Another example is that if Tali and Legion survive, then you can get the Geth fleets to support, give the Quarians their homeworld back, and have Quarian backing as well.  While none of that is essential, it's extremely important to the people who care (and there's a lot) and it will give you an advantage in the finale.

As you said, people who lost damn near everyone in the suicide mission SHOULD be punished for rushing through.  Seriously, it's not that damn hard to keep people alive.

[Tlazolteotl]

How is canon a problem? Wrex is in my game, so obviously he's not dead.

Canon has no relevance for mass effect games. Unless you start a new game in ME3, of course.

[Tlazolteotl]

That's crazy talk.

You're selling bioware short by saying there's no point to doing well in the suicide mission since you can't have anybody back anyway.

[glasgoo21]

Even if fan favorites do not return, I can assure you they will buy, they'll just run hell at the forums, can't get worse then with all those support threads, who are useless by the way as their content is worth squat

[Tlazolteotl]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

That's crazy talk.
You're selling bioware short by saying there's no point to doing well in the suicide mission since you can't have anybody back anyway.

I am not trying to sell Bioware or anyone short.  That is the reality of it though. 

I guess we'll see, but I think you're wrong.

Since we're all speculating, you should remember that in order to complete ME2 with Shep alive, 2 other squad members will also be alive.
I.e. a valid transferrable save includes a team of 3.
Also, the focus of ME2 is in the building of the team, and not the space opera .. due to the "middle of a trilogy" syndrome.

Also, irregardless of whether you imported a save from ME1 or started a new game in ME2, at least Liara and (one of) Kaidan/Ashley will be alive.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'll have to say ME3 will have very few (if any) new squad members, less focus on squadmate quests, and a return to grand space opera.
The purpose of Liara + Kaidan/Ashley not being recruitable in ME2 is in order to guarantee their survival for ME3.
Hence, with 0 new squad members, you'll have at least a team of 5.

[Collider]

Johnny, you have NO idea who the default Shepard will have alive in ME3. The only precedence we have is Wrex. The ONLY one.

[Collider]

Johnny Dollar, that is simply not correct. Characters can - it is humanly possible to do so - play prominent roles, the only distinction that they could not reasonably have to be alive for the player to finish the game. Again, you don't know what the "canon" for Shepard in ME3 is.

[Tlazolteotl]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
If a squad member can die then they are dead in the canon

Dude, no.
Canon = official story.
I.e. what the "real" Shepard did, and what events the "real" Shepard went through, not what could have happened.
For instance, in the canon, Ashley is alive in ME2.

[Collider]

That's if your male shepard, Tlaz. I would argue that there is no canon Shepard yet established. There is a default Shepard, but not a canon Shepard. And I would also argue that most people had most squad mates survive whether on their first try or through reloading or replaying.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

JohnnyDollar there's nothing really wrong with having modified versions of major story events for different combinations of dead squadmates provided it doesn't involve too many of them. As it goes, there's only two I can think of who really matter in that regard based on what we know: Tali and Legion. Possibly only Tali (in a big way), due to the nature of Legion's existence as has been established.
While all the others could certainly have important arcs which you just wouldn't get otherwise, I'm not sure their are any which would really represent crippling complexity - especially as there's some obvious wittling down which can be done of the major cast (though I kind of hope we just get to keep everyone...that would be damn cool).
Even with Legion and Tali, the only differences I can imagine is some dialog which goes differently and (I would hope) a whole bunch of extra dialog in dealing with major events (of which I hope Quarians and Geth will be one).
EDIT: The biggest single problem is how much additional extra dialog would be needed for all the in-mission banter. Given that I'd say you have very good plot reasons to not have Samara/Morinth, Thane, Zaeed and possibly Jack still on the team, you can easily make enough room for full mission VA'ing for the ME1 characters (going with the idea that 12 is close to the limit of what would be done for in-mission stuff).

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 14 mars 2010 - 10:18 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Collider wrote...

That's if your male shepard, Tlaz. I would argue that there is no canon Shepard yet established. There is a default Shepard, but not a canon Shepard. And I would also argue that most people had most squad mates survive whether on their first try or through reloading or replaying.

It's canon, because outside of mass effect games, that's what happened.
Graphic novels, spinoffs, etc.
'cos outside of mass effect games, there's only John Shepard, and he looks crap.

That's the canon, but it doesn't have any bearing on our games.

[Collider]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Collider wrote...

That's if your male shepard, Tlaz. I would argue that there is no canon Shepard yet established. There is a default Shepard, but not a canon Shepard. And I would also argue that most people had most squad mates survive whether on their first try or through reloading or replaying.

It's canon, because outside of mass effect games, that's what happened.
Graphic novels, spinoffs, etc.
'cos outside of mass effect games, there's only John Shepard, and he looks crap.

That's the canon, but it doesn't have any bearing on our games.

Not exactly. It's only canon if Bioware says it is. There are several examples of spin offs in other series such as Star Wars which were said by the company or writers themselves not to be canon. Anyway, we don't have anything canon about Shepard regarding who survived and who didn't of those who could possibly die, nor do we know Shepard's canon gender. The advertisements have John Shepard, but that's an advertisement. KOTOR II marketed the male exile, but the canon was that the exile was female.