285 réponses à ce sujet

[Multifarious Algorithm]

I think the best argument is simply that there's no way Bioware are going to just redux the "recruit your squad -> final mission" gameplay in ME3.

I think we're mostly all freaking out because, well, they're all pretty excellent characters, and it feels a little like we were short-changed on ME1 squadmates (to which I say: really, we weren't - we got Garrus and Tali back. We got a whole lot of satisfying awesome from Wrex. Only the potential LIs weren't there, and Ecael points out why - waaaay too many possibilities crop up if they can die for ME3).

My final point would also be this: to an extent, cameos are more problematic then squadmates. Squadmates need a bunch of a dialog true, but cameos means that person is supposed to have been off affecting the world in-between games. Whereas if they've just been on your ship, then their entire story is rather neatly packaged and they have otherwise not changed anything in the outside world that Shepard himself did or did not touch. For a game as big as the ME's - dialog recording is cheap, dealing with thousands of possible outcomes is expensive - because it involves more then just VA'ing work to present.

[jlb524]

Ecael wrote...

With your logic, none of the squadmates will return to Mass Effect 3, and we'll spend not just 90%, but 95% of the game recruiting 14-15 squadmates again.

I never said that none of the ME2 squad mates would return.  I said probably 4 squad mates from ME2 would return as squad mates, unless they died.  I think that's manageable.  They are going to have to make a few new squad mates for ME3, just in case someone got most of their team killed in the suicide run.  Since this is the case, I don't think they'll take the time to make the entire ME2 squad recruitable but just a few.

[Ecael]

jlb524 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

With your logic, none of the squadmates will return to Mass Effect 3, and we'll spend not just 90%, but 95% of the game recruiting 14-15 squadmates again.

I never said that none of the ME2 squad mates would return.  I said probably 4 squad mates from ME2 would return as squad mates, unless they died.  I think that's manageable.  They are going to have to make a few new squad mates for ME3, just in case someone got most of their team killed in the suicide run.  Since this is the case, I don't think they'll take the time to make the entire ME2 squad recruitable but just a few.

BioWare doubled the number of useable squadmates from ME1 to ME2. I don't think they intend on decreasing it by a large amount for the next game, so it's safe to say that at least 10+ squadmates are usable next game. Designing new characters and hiring new actors to voice them takes more time than keeping a character (even if they can die). The fact that Liara, Ashley and Kaidan even have any lines at all in ME2, seeing as they took the time to bring the old voice actors back for about 5 minutes of recording, supports this.

That being said, I would think at least 6-8 squadmates from ME2 will become squadmates into the next game. I don't care which 6-8 they are, as long as they are there. Trying to lower that number will ultimately make the final mission of ME2 feel useless, as it hardly mattered who died or not.

[jlb524]

Ecael wrote...

Designing new characters and hiring new actors to voice them takes more time than keeping a character (even if they can die).

I used a similar argument prior to ME2's release when defending my belief that bringing back Ashley and Kaidan as ME2 squad mates would be feasible, even though one or the other would be dead.  I was wrong apparently.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

jlb524 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Designing new characters and hiring new actors to voice them takes more time than keeping a character (even if they can die).

I used a similar argument prior to ME2's release when defending my belief that bringing back Ashley and Kaidan as ME2 squad mates would be feasible, even though one or the other would be dead.  I was wrong apparently.

Except as Bioware themselves have said - they needed to make sure Ashley or Kaiden would be alive for ME3. ME2 was done as the middle chapter of a trilogy. ME3 is the last game so the gloves can come off on anyone from ME1.
Ecael has pointed out the problems with how many possibilities you end up with otherwise.

[Ecael]

jlb524 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Designing new characters and hiring new actors to voice them takes more time than keeping a character (even if they can die).

I used a similar argument prior to ME2's release when defending my belief that bringing back Ashley and Kaidan as ME2 squad mates would be feasible, even though one or the other would be dead.  I was wrong apparently.

And if you were a Tali or Garrus fan, you'd be right, apparently. Those fans are now in the same position with Mass Effect 2. I've also noticed that Liara fans (especially) have some kind of latent pessimism about the returning squad in Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Ecael, 15 mars 2010 - 02:54 .

[jlb524]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Except as Bioware themselves have said - they needed to make sure Ashley or Kaiden would be alive for ME3. ME2 was done as the middle chapter of a trilogy. ME3 is the last game so the gloves can come off on anyone from ME1.
Ecael has pointed out the problems with how many possibilities you end up with otherwise.

Why make sure Ashley or Kaidan are alive for ME3 when they're going to bring back all the ME2 squad for ME3 regardless of possible death in ME2?  If Ash/Kaidan were in ME2 they'd still be in the same boat as Tali or Jack or Thane. 

[jlb524]

Ecael wrote...

And if you were a Tali or Garrus fan, you'd be right, apparently. Those fans are now in the same position with Mass Effect 2.

Tali or Garrus couldn't die in ME1 though.  This is why most thought it would be feasible to have them return in ME2 as opposed to Ashley or Kaidan.  As we've seen, they decided to make a bunch of new characters instead of bringing back the potentially dead Ash or Kaidan.

Ecael wrote...

I've also noticed that Liara fans (especially) have some kind of latent pessimism about the returning squad in Mass Effect 3.

We've been burned once...why should we let it happen again?

[Multifarious Algorithm]

jlb524 wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Except as Bioware themselves have said - they needed to make sure Ashley or Kaiden would be alive for ME3. ME2 was done as the middle chapter of a trilogy. ME3 is the last game so the gloves can come off on anyone from ME1.
Ecael has pointed out the problems with how many possibilities you end up with otherwise.

Why make sure Ashley or Kaidan are alive for ME3 when they're going to bring back all the ME2 squad for ME3 regardless of possible death in ME2?  If Ash/Kaidan were in ME2 they'd still be in the same boat as Tali or Jack or Thane. 

Because you can't have a character play an important role in the storyline if they could've died in earlier games more then once? As it stands they simply need the same dialog for two possibilities in ME3, and can rely on one of those two characters still being alive to play the role. The same is probably true of Liara and Wrex.

Garrus and Tali, by definition - can't have important roles in the ME3 main plot, even if they can be there. The same is true of all the squadmates of the current Normandy crew.

EDIT: Also - there is a very good reason I could imagine why you need one of those two alive. They're alliance military, high ranked enough to be on the inside of whatever counter-Reaper program they have going. However ME3 goes down, the Alliance may be a dominant power in the universe (possibly the only credible one if you killed the council) but you're Cerberus for all of ME2. They're the only credible "in" you can guarantee having is with the Alliance since you could also have put Udina in-charge as Councillor.

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 15 mars 2010 - 03:23 .

[Ecael]

jlb524 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

And if you were a Tali or Garrus fan, you'd be right, apparently. Those fans are now in the same position with Mass Effect 2.

Tali or Garrus couldn't die in ME1 though.  This is why most thought it would be feasible to have them return in ME2 as opposed to Ashley or Kaidan.  As we've seen, they decided to make a bunch of new characters instead of bringing back the potentially dead Ash or Kaidan.

And at the same time, they could have made Tali or Garrus cameos if they wanted. This is regardless of their past or present fanbase or whether they can die, since the point we're debating is whether it's worth the effort to bring them back. Liz Sroka (Tali) and Brandon Keener (Garrus) are either incapable or prohibited from playing any additional roles with their voice, so it would highly inefficient to keep them on board.

Ecael wrote...

I've also noticed that Liara fans (especially) have some kind of latent pessimism about the returning squad in Mass Effect 3.

We've been burned once...why should we let it happen again?

Wait. You're trying to get Liara to return to Mass Effect 3... by arguing that most of the past squadmates won't make it to ME3?




Try being optimistic of BioWare's writers. It might help with the gloom that surrounds some of the unsupportive 'support' threads around here (which is part of the reason I ignore all of those threads).

Modifié par Ecael, 15 mars 2010 - 03:39 .

[JeanLuc761]

Ecael wrote...
And at the same time, they could have made Tali or Garrus cameos if they wanted. This is regardless of their past or present fanbase or whether they can die, since the point we're debating is whether it's worth to effort to bring them back. Liz Sroka (Tali) and Brandon Keener (Garrus) are either incapable or prohibited from playing any additional roles with their voice, so it would highly inefficient to keep them on board.

Wait, you confused me here.

You're saying that since Liz Sroka and Brandon Keener are contractually obligated to play Tali and Garrus...that it would be inefficient to bring them back as squadmates?

Sorry, I'm a little lost.

[Ecael]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Ecael wrote...
And at the same time, they could have made Tali or Garrus cameos if they wanted. This is regardless of their past or present fanbase or whether they can die, since the point we're debating is whether it's worth to effort to bring them back. Liz Sroka (Tali) and Brandon Keener (Garrus) are either incapable or prohibited from playing any additional roles with their voice, so it would highly inefficient to keep them on board.

Wait, you confused me here.

You're saying that since Liz Sroka and Brandon Keener are contractually obligated to play Tali and Garrus...that it would be inefficient to bring them back as squadmates?

Sorry, I'm a little lost.

I'm not talking about contractual obligations - we don't know what they're actually signed on for (it would spoil the story, anyway). I'm talking about bringing veteran voice actors who can play several different roles (Steve Blum, D.C. Douglas, etc.) instead of keeping voice actors who are restricted to playing just one.

[JeanLuc761]

Ecael wrote...
I'm not talking about contractual obligations - we don't know what they're actually signed on for (it would spoil the story, anyway). I'm talking about bringing veteran voice actors who can play several different roles (Steve Blum, D.C. Douglas, etc.) instead of keeping voice actors who are restricted to playing just one.

Oh, I gotcha.

You're right, it would be more efficient to have actors fill multiple roles but there's a flip side to that:
I would much rather have an actor do a single role perfectly than to do multiple roles decently.  I think that's one of the things about Brandon Keener and Liz Sroka; they do their characters flawlessly in every single scene.

Plus, as we all know, the fanbase will go into civil war if Garrus and Tali don't return.

[Ecael]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm not talking about contractual obligations - we don't know what they're actually signed on for (it would spoil the story, anyway). I'm talking about bringing veteran voice actors who can play several different roles (Steve Blum, D.C. Douglas, etc.) instead of keeping voice actors who are restricted to playing just one.

Oh, I gotcha.

You're right, it would be more efficient to have actors fill multiple roles but there's a flip side to that:
I would much rather have an actor do a single role perfectly than to do multiple roles decently.  I think that's one of the things about Brandon Keener and Liz Sroka; they do their characters flawlessly in every single scene.

Plus, as we all know, the fanbase will go into civil war if Garrus and Tali don't return.

As I mentioned, people like Steve Blum and D.C. Douglas are veterans - they not only do multiple roles, but they do them well. I'm sure we can argue about the quality of Garrus' and Tali's voice actors, but it would be irrelevant to this thread.

If I were a BioWare writer, I wouldn't let myself be influenced by fanbases. That way, I don't have to cater to them as if Mass Effect were some giant romance novel. I would more likely worry about how their survival or role affects the main story of Mass Effect, as Mass Effect 1 and 2 have a lot to make up for -- especially with the disjointed Collector plot.

[JeanLuc761]

Ecael wrote...
If I were a BioWare writer, I wouldn't let myself be influenced by fanbases. That way, I don't have to cater to them as if Mass Effect were some giant romance novel. I would more likely worry about how their survival or role affects the main story of Mass Effect, as Mass Effect 1 and 2 have a lot to make up for -- especially with the disjointed Collector plot.

I can agree with that; I wasn't necessarily looking at Tali and Garrus in terms of their romance subplots anyway (though they are fairly major for a lot of people).  I was thinking more along the lines of "These two have been with Shepard since the absolute beginning.  They trust him implicitly and would follow him to hell and back; what possible reason would they have for leaving?"

That's all *shrug*

[Ecael]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Ecael wrote...
If I were a BioWare writer, I wouldn't let myself be influenced by fanbases. That way, I don't have to cater to them as if Mass Effect were some giant romance novel. I would more likely worry about how their survival or role affects the main story of Mass Effect, as Mass Effect 1 and 2 have a lot to make up for -- especially with the disjointed Collector plot.

I can agree with that; I wasn't necessarily looking at Tali and Garrus in terms of their romance subplots anyway (though they are fairly major for a lot of people).  I was thinking more along the lines of "These two have been with Shepard since the absolute beginning.  They trust him implicitly and would follow him to hell and back; what possible reason would they have for leaving?"

That's all *shrug*

I'm not a rabid fan of Tali, Garrus, or Legion, but I think those three are linked.

As you said, Tali and Garrus are the most loyal characters to Shepard right now, joining him even though he is with Cerberus. Tali and Legion also shyly admit -- in different ways -- that they've always had feelings toward Shepard. There's no reason that any of the three will want to leave Shepard or run away from the fight against the Reapers.

And no, I do not wish to make, find or look at any Rule 34 involving Shepard, Tali, Garrus and Legion.

[jklinders]

In my opinion the reason we spent so much of ME2 putting together a team was so that the element of introducing new party members would not be required in ME 3. Let's face it, ME3 has a lot of ground to cover as it is.

It remains my opinion that Bioware should not feel obligated to create replacements for lost squaddies from the suicide mission. If this really is about choices and consequences then having a gimped squad should be a direct consequence of not keeping everyone alive. Spending 3/4 of the game in ME2 putting together and getting to know your team only makes sense if Bioware intends to focus on bring the story to it's conclusion next game.

this makes it a lot easier to create binary choices in the game script and removes the need for a lot of new characters that would serve mainly to clutter things up for many people in act 3.

once the whole trilogy is out I think I'll play a game where I screw myself as much as possible. Kill the council, blow up the collector base and get half my squad killed and see how it plays out. Heck , see if it is even possible to win.

[Collider]

Ecael wrote...
I've also noticed that Liara fans (especially) have some kind of latent pessimism about the returning squad in Mass Effect 3.

No kidding. I had a Liara fan that suggested that no squad mates from Mass Effect 2 shoul return because they were no good

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Man does efficiency really factor into it with voice actors? Whether they're good at doing it is one thing but recording dialog takes time regardless of whether one guy is doing a few characters or just one. And probably more importantly - you can't double up without penalty, no matter how good someone is they only have a limited range.

Plus, Liz Sroka needs some sort of award for ME2 because wow. Also Michael Beattie, but that should just go without saying.

Also Ecael: I'm pretty sure there was some sort of time-crunch at the end of ME1 because it's not just Tali, it seems to be all the characters have oddly recorded lines for that. Kaiden is another one which just doesn't fit. Pressley (going to Ilos) too.

[JeanLuc761]

Ecael wrote...
I'm not a rabid fan of Tali, Garrus, or Legion, but I think those three are linked.

As you said, Tali and Garrus are the most loyal characters to Shepard right now, joining him even though he is with Cerberus. Tali and Legion also shyly admit -- in different ways -- that they've always had feelings toward Shepard. There's no reason that any of the three will want to leave Shepard or run away from the fight against the Reapers.

And no, I do not wish to make, find or look at any Rule 34 involving Shepard, Tali, Garrus and Legion.

Seems we're agreed on Garrus and Tali so far as that goes.  But Legion having feelings for Shepard...oh dear. 

[Multifarious Algorithm]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm not a rabid fan of Tali, Garrus, or Legion, but I think those three are linked.

As you said, Tali and Garrus are the most loyal characters to Shepard right now, joining him even though he is with Cerberus. Tali and Legion also shyly admit -- in different ways -- that they've always had feelings toward Shepard. There's no reason that any of the three will want to leave Shepard or run away from the fight against the Reapers.

And no, I do not wish to make, find or look at any Rule 34 involving Shepard, Tali, Garrus and Legion.

Seems we're agreed on Garrus and Tali so far as that goes.  But Legion having feelings for Shepard...oh dear. 

He found a piece of your armor and decided to weld it himself. He has some adorable hero worship going on. He was also specifically dispatched by the Geth - hell, specifically built by the Geth - to find you, and evidently, act as your terminal for the Geth.

[jklinders]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm not a rabid fan of Tali, Garrus, or Legion, but I think those three are linked.

As you said, Tali and Garrus are the most loyal characters to Shepard right now, joining him even though he is with Cerberus. Tali and Legion also shyly admit -- in different ways -- that they've always had feelings toward Shepard. There's no reason that any of the three will want to leave Shepard or run away from the fight against the Reapers.

And no, I do not wish to make, find or look at any Rule 34 involving Shepard, Tali, Garrus and Legion.

Seems we're agreed on Garrus and Tali so far as that goes.  But Legion having feelings for Shepard...oh dear. 

"No data available..."

[sagefic]

i agree that the 3rd game just would not have the same magic if the squad members were not back.



sort of reminds me of tolkien's comments on the 3 vol. of his trilogy - he'd incurred such deep narrative debts, he had to make things hella more complicated before he could get to an ending that fit the story.



ME is about the most ambitious game story-wise that i have ever seen, and as a result, it's amazing. to really give the full plot arc justice, i think the story has to follow out all logical squadmate possibilities or it's going to sell itself short.

[Ecael]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm not a rabid fan of Tali, Garrus, or Legion, but I think those three are linked.

As you said, Tali and Garrus are the most loyal characters to Shepard right now, joining him even though he is with Cerberus. Tali and Legion also shyly admit -- in different ways -- that they've always had feelings toward Shepard. There's no reason that any of the three will want to leave Shepard or run away from the fight against the Reapers.

And no, I do not wish to make, find or look at any Rule 34 involving Shepard, Tali, Garrus and Legion.

Seems we're agreed on Garrus and Tali so far as that goes.  But Legion having feelings for Shepard...oh dear. 

FemShepard: That still doesn't explain why you tried to infiltrate my cabin and take off my N7 armor and panties last night.

[JeanLuc761]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm not a rabid fan of Tali, Garrus, or Legion, but I think those three are linked.

As you said, Tali and Garrus are the most loyal characters to Shepard right now, joining him even though he is with Cerberus. Tali and Legion also shyly admit -- in different ways -- that they've always had feelings toward Shepard. There's no reason that any of the three will want to leave Shepard or run away from the fight against the Reapers.

And no, I do not wish to make, find or look at any Rule 34 involving Shepard, Tali, Garrus and Legion.

Seems we're agreed on Garrus and Tali so far as that goes.  But Legion having feelings for Shepard...oh dear. 

He found a piece of your armor and decided to weld it himself. He has some adorable hero worship going on. He was also specifically dispatched by the Geth - hell, specifically built by the Geth - to find you, and evidently, act as your terminal for the Geth.

I was making a joke, dont' take me so seriously