285 réponses à ce sujet

[NICKjnp]

I think the recruitables will be any surviving team mates that are/were LI's for Shepard (Liara, Kaiden, Ashley, Miranda, Jacob, Jack, Thane, Garrus and Tali) as well as (probably) four more "new" squadmates.... most people tried there best to make sure that their entire team survived (except for Ecael). Those that tried their hardest to have their entire team killed probably want to see how the game will play out with as few NPC's as possible anywase so not a problem.

Modifié par NICKjnp, 15 mars 2010 - 04:57 .

[SimonTheFrog]

I don't see a problem with the deceased squadmates. Didn't you know they all have brothers?? Or sisters in Miranda's case...

[Ecael]

ratzerman wrote...

Uncooperative?  Who am I supposed to be cooperting with?

All of your arguments aren't helping Liara come back in ME3 - in fact, you're making it seem like you don't want any squadmate to be in ME3 at all because you're disappointed. BioWare can see this as 'Liara fans will be disappointed no matter what, so let's just give her the Shadow Broker DLC to tie up her story so she never has to appear again' (and it's an actual possibility).

I was OK with Liara not being recruitable. But the lengths Bioware went to push her fans away has destroyed any faith I once had in the company.  Not only did they tell you right off the bat that she can't be trusted, they also (seemingly) turned her into a stone-cold killer.  Then they hid her most important cutscene, where she breaks down and explains why she was acting so strangely, behind a one-chance decision on the dialogue wheel.  Miss it, and her drastic changes went unexplained.

If one character in BioWare's massive character roster of all their games produced from Baldur's Gate destroys your faith in the company - and you're arguing as if Liara shouldn't be in the game at all - why are you still here? Liara's DLC is not even remotely close to being developed yet, so BioWare - and you - can't dismiss her immediately.

Nearly two months after release, I still see posts all over this (and other) forums saying "what happened to Liara?  She's a crazy beee-otch now. I dumped her blue butt, and boned Tali instead. WIN."  Do you have any idea how much that hurts?  To see a beloved character unjustly belittled and mocked?

On top of all that, they made her and Shepard all but ignore their romance.  The only difference in the entirety of her scenes for those who romanced her was an awkward kiss.  There isn't one dialogue option for Shepard that even HINTS at a romance.  How did Bioware go from "She's so important, she can't go on the suicide mission" all the way down to "she's so unimportant, we're going to assume the romance never happened."

You take offense when a video game character gets verbally assaulted by an anonymous person on the Internet? Do you happen to be married to Liara your last name here T'Soni? Your Shepard character is meant to be much stronger than that. You need to be stronger than that.

Have some hope in BioWare's writers - they know what they are doing. Look at this situation objectively. Don't let your pessimism turn into reality or the game's reality.

Modifié par Ecael, 15 mars 2010 - 05:46 .

[superimposed]

Bioware definitely understands about Character Development, it understands the importance of fleshing out characters, but for whatever reason ME:2 just lacked any of that. That said, ME:1 wasn't exactly character rich either, inspite of what a lot of people say. Nothing about the ME series even comes close to the characters in their previous RPG's. Hopefully ME:3 can rectify this.

I'm not pessimistic, as I know Bioware can do it. It's merely a matter of seeing if they DO manage it.

Hopefully they don't pull a 'dark tower' on us and completely bunk up the finale.

[Barquiel]

Ecael wrote...

Do you simply ignore previous and future posts that do not fit your argument?

You can make Oghren have -100 disapproval, ruin his love life with both Branka and Felsi, kill him several times through gameplay (once in camp too!), and THEN tell him to leave your party permanently before ever seeing Fort Drakon. Yet they're still bringing him back. Why? Probably because Steve Blum was just finished voicing Mass Effect 2.

I read that Oghren isn't killable during the duel (if his approval rating is -100), he just leaves the party. I haven't found anything on youtube either. At least it is hard to kill him.

previous arguments?
Do you mean "This game is irrelevant" ?

...and don't worry. I won't be disappointed if Shiala isn't recruitable;)

[ratzerman]

Sigh..... so you took the "If you don't like it, just leave" and "You know it's a videogame, right?" routes, huh?

Modifié par ratzerman, 15 mars 2010 - 05:19 .

[RobbertDewulf]

I think we will all be disappointed when we'll se our squad in ME3, we all want our old squadmates to return but the truth is that there have to be new ones too, so how will Bioware be able to please us and which characters will we loose?



Hmm... Shepard will need an army, all squadmates could be usefull, but it really gives Bioware a handfull of costs, so I guess they better begin to make payable DLC's (with quality of course).



Dunno, and seriously don't want to think about ME3, I'm still enjoying ME1 and ME2, jeez.

[Ecael]

ratzerman wrote...

Sigh..... so you took the "If you don't like it, just leave" and "You know it's a videogame, right?" routes, huh?

Except I'm being serious, even if you try to exaggerate or simplify my responses.

Romances are a side story to Mass Effect. They're nice to have, but you don't have to ogle a specific character constantly. If you want a dialogue-based game to play where you feel fulfilled in getting to know a character and a selective dialogue structure, you can download and play translations for Japanese visual novels instead.

Kanon and Clannad are very good (and the Kyoto Animation versions of both anime are as well). Both visual novels are made by Key, whose 'presence' in Japan as game writers is probably larger than BioWare.

I read that Oghren isn't killable during the duel (if his approval
rating is -100), he just leaves the party. I haven't found anything on
youtube either. At least it is hard to kill him.

previous
arguments?
Do you mean "This game
is irrelevant" ?

...and don't worry. I won't be
disappointed if Shiala isn't recruitable

And what would be Oghren's reaction to you doing all that? Probably nothing. Zero consequences. Just like how sacrificing yourself to the Archdemon and importing to DA:O:A makes the expansion assume that you resurrected yourself and had sex with Morrigan along the way (even if you told her to leave early as well!). I guess they channeled the spirits of phallic Mage Tower for you to impregnate her while she is in Orlais.

And I hope you won't be disappointed when if Liara isn't recruitable in ME3 either. Really, have some faith.

[SimonTheFrog]

I wouldn't mind 16 loyalty quests

[ratzerman]

And now you're telling me to try a dating sim? LOL! The trifecta!

[jlb524]

Ecael wrote...

All of your arguments aren't helping Liara come back in ME3 - in fact, you're making it seem like you don't want any squadmate to be in ME3 at all because you're disappointed.

That's a huge logical leap.  Most Liara fans do want other squad mates back in ME3.  There are a few ME2 squad mates that I loved and would like to see back again.  I'm just not getting my hopes up for this, knowing what happened with ME1 squad mates in ME2.

BioWare can see this as 'Liara fans will be disappointed no matter what, so let's just give her the Shadow Broker DLC to tie up her story so she never has to appear again' (and it's an actual possibility).

Doubt it.  Though I'm sure some people would like for this to happen.

If one character in BioWare's massive character roster of all their games produced from Baldur's Gate destroys your faith in the company - and you're arguing as if Liara shouldn't be in the game at all - why are you still here? Liara's DLC is not even remotely close to being developed yet, so BioWare - and you - can't dismiss her immediately.

Where do you get that he was arguing that Liara shouldn't be in the game at all?

There's even an Intimidate option for Shepard that responds quite well to what you said (and I apologize in advance for even using this picture, because it's ad hominem and I hoped I never would have to use it in a thread):

At least you recognize the inherent lameness of ad hominems.  I have no idea why you still restorted to it though.

[Ecael]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ok here I go:

In some of my posts earlier I used the word canon.  Perhaps a better word is default.  I am not even touching the books, comics and who the canon Shepard is.  I am only speaking of the ME video game and it's characters.

Frankly Bioware can do anything as long as they make money and stay in business.
With that said, I would expect some continuity in the trilogy.

Except BioWare writers aren't people in dress suits and ties who only care about how much money they make at the end of the day. Don't presume to judge them or their methods.

Every character in the game could be killed so far with the exception of Shepard, Liara, Dr. Chockwas, Joker, Capt. Anderson, Udina, TIM, and a few others.
*Ashley and Kaiden are a weird exception:  Only one of them is dead depending on Shep's Gender.

Shepard can die, but is not importable.

Liara - Tells you that if you didn't do her Observer quest correctly, she could have been killed. Possible liability.
Dr. Chakwas - If you don't send an escort at all, Dr. Chakwas dies along with the rest of the crew.

Just about everyone that steps foot in the Normandy can die -- period. Joker almost died the first time. EDI can go beserk and kill him first as well. It makes you wonder if the Normandy, with Reaper technology installed, is 'out' to get them! (Just kidding...)

I have seen the argument that perhaps only Tali and Legion are necessary for ME3 because of the Quarian Geth issue.  What if I killed Tali and Legion in the suicide mission?  That would support the idea that Tali and Legion's roles would be diminished and not matter.  A perfect example is Wrex/Wreave.  It doesn't matter who the leader at Tuchanka is for you to accomlpish the mission there.  Hence Wrex is not a squadmate and is diminished to eye candy(so to speak) for those who saved him.  The same analogy can be made for every other character that has been killed or could have been killed.

You must have misunderstood my argument then. Tali and Legion are linked, primarily because they are on distinct sides and have the same reasons to defeat the Reapers and/or turn against each other. They are also relying on Shepard. This means that either BOTH will become cameos or BOTH will be squadmates.

The death of Tali and Legion can have serious consequences (although moreso for Tali, for obvious reasons).

There is the possibility that at the beginning of ME3 there could be some kind of rift in space that would cause the Normandy to travel back in time and relive the suicide mission with no one dieing or only certain characters dying with or without the player having control over it. 

There is the possibility certain squad members can be resurrected in the Lazarus project with or without the player choosing who is resurrected.  Although these sound like wild theories, they would support the idea of past squad members that could have died, but can be in your ME3 squad.

There is the possibility that you could have temporary squad members that survived in your ME2 game save.  You could do a small mission or side quest  and/or a romance scene with them and then they could die or just say goodbye and you move one.  These would have no impact on the game mission.  Their role would be diminished.

There is the possibility that you could have DLC for past squad members.  Again though, I can't see these being critical to the game.  They would be diminished in their role just like Zaeed and Kasumi.  You can win ME3 without downloading and installing them into the game, but when starting a new game you install them and you could pick them up and play the rest of the game with them.

There is the possibility that EA could collapse from reporting several consecutive losses and choose to dismantle BioWare & Friends. Therefore, Mass Effect as a series can die.

You heard it here first, folks. BioWare and Mass Effect can possibly die before the release of Mass Effect 3, so there's a possibility that your Mass Effect won't be in your Mass Effect, even though I heard you like Mass Effect.

[Ecael]

[quote]jlb524 wrote...

[quote]Ecael wrote...

All of your arguments aren't helping Liara come back in ME3 - in fact, you're making it seem like you don't want any squadmate to be in ME3 at all because you're disappointed.

[/quote]

That's a huge logical leap.  Most Liara fans do want other squad mates back in ME3.  There are a few ME2 squad mates that I loved and would like to see back again.  I'm just not getting my hopes up for this, knowing what happened with ME1 squad mates in ME2.[/quote]
Not really a logical leap. If it was, we would not be arguing about the viability of squadmates returning in the next game.


[quote][quote]

BioWare can see this as 'Liara fans will be disappointed no matter what, so let's just give her the Shadow Broker DLC to tie up her story so she never has to appear again' (and it's an actual possibility).
[/quote]

Doubt it.  Though I'm sure some people would like for this to happen.[/quote]
There's the pessimism again. I'll try to remain optimistic and believe that the large Liara DLC in the future is not some attempt at the writers trying to write her off before ME3.

[quote][quote]If one character in BioWare's massive character roster of all their games produced from Baldur's Gate destroys your faith in the company - and you're arguing as if Liara shouldn't be in the game at all - why are you still here? Liara's DLC is not even remotely close to being developed yet, so BioWare - and you - can't dismiss her immediately.
[/quote]

Where do you get that he was arguing that Liara shouldn't be in the game at all?[/quote]
Again, read my first reply.[/quote]

[quote][quote]
There's even an Intimidate option for Shepard that responds quite well to what you said (and I apologize in advance for even using this picture, because it's ad hominem and I hoped I never would have to use it in a thread):

[/quote]

At least you recognize the inherent lameness of ad hominems.  I have no idea why you still restorted to it though.[/quote]
At this point I can't even remember who I used it on or what it was in response to - I think three or four of you all have Liara as your avatar.

Again, I apologize. I'll edit it out.

Modifié par Ecael, 15 mars 2010 - 05:47 .

[Booglarize]

Ecael wrote...
 BioWare and Mass Effect can possibly die before the release of Mass Effect 3, so there's a possibility that your Mass Effect won't be in your Mass Effect, even though I heard you like Mass Effect.

Yo dawg, you just blew my mind. 

[Knoll Argonar]

Booglarize wrote...

Ecael wrote...
 BioWare and Mass Effect can possibly die before the release of Mass Effect 3, so there's a possibility that your Mass Effect won't be in your Mass Effect, even though I heard you like Mass Effect.

Yo dawg, you just blew my mind. 

LOL, that's awesome.

But I completely agree with Ecael.

[jlb524]

Ecael wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

That's a huge logical leap.  Most Liara fans do want other squad mates back in ME3.  There are a few ME2 squad mates that I loved and would like to see back again.  I'm just not getting my hopes up for this, knowing what happened with ME1 squad mates in ME2.

Not really a logical leap. If it was, we would not be arguing about the viability of squadmates returning in the next game.

Arguing against the viability of squad mates returning is not the same as wishing they wouldn't return.   I don't think Jack will return as a squad mate in ME3 but this doesn't mean I don't want her to.

[jlb524]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Liara - Tells you that if you didn't do her Observer quest correctly, she could have been killed. Possible liability.
Dr. Chakwas - If you don't send an escort at all, Dr. Chakwas dies along with the rest of the crew.

Liara is a possibility then.  I didn't realize that about Dr. Chockwas

.

Liara can't die....your chain is getting yanked.

[Ecael]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Except BioWare writers aren't people in dress suits and ties who only care about how much money they make at the end of the day. Don't presume to judge them or their methods.

My statement was not a judgement.  I was simply stating the reality that regardless of continuity or what we think or want in the game, Bioware can do what they want as long as they are in business.  I think your are misreading my intentions.

Shepard can die, but is not importable.

That is irrelevent.

Liara - Tells you that if you didn't do her Observer quest correctly, she could have been killed. Possible liability.
Dr. Chakwas - If you don't send an escort at all, Dr. Chakwas dies along with the rest of the crew.

Liara is a possibility then.  I didn't realize that about Dr. Chockwas

Just about everyone that steps foot in the Normandy can die -- period. Joker almost died the first time. EDI can go beserk and kill him first as well. It makes you wonder if the Normandy, with Reaper technology installed, is 'out' to get them! (Just kidding...)

Almosting dying is not good enough.

You must have misunderstood my argument then. Tali and Legion are linked, primarily because they are on distinct sides and have the same reasons to defeat the Reapers and/or turn against each other. They are also relying on Shepard. This means that either BOTH will become cameos or BOTH will be squadmates.

I wasn't referring to your statements specifically.

The death of Tali and Legion can have serious consequences (although moreso for Tali, for obvious reasons).

Explain how.

(You nitpicked some details.  Your not refuting my argument though.)

I replied to every part of your post. If I were really nitpicking, Johnny, I would respond to one line and claim I won the argument using airquotes.

Yes, Joker and EDI dying are almost irrelevant as Shepard's death, but that's in the extreme case that Seth Green and Tricia Helfer are not able to return for ME3. When it comes to writing for games (BioWare especially), you always have to have an 'out' - some way to kill off a character without making the whole story useless or removing it of all sense.

And about Tali and Legion, I'll take my comment back since I misunderstood that you misunderstood, so I'm not going to misunderstand what I previously misunderstood about your misunderstanding (dawg).

But anyway, Tali and Legion, even though Tali and Legion are 'young' in their own ways, are powerful, influential characters because they worked with Shepard. In addition, Tali is the daughter of one of the Admirals and is a Quarian hero for destroying the geth (she's not quite ready to take power though!) and Legion is THE representative of the true geth. Killing either ought to have major consequences, don't you think?

Modifié par Ecael, 15 mars 2010 - 06:08 .

[Ecael]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Liara - Tells you that if you didn't do her Observer quest correctly, she could have been killed. Possible liability.
Dr. Chakwas - If you don't send an escort at all, Dr. Chakwas dies along with the rest of the crew.

Liara is a possibility then.  I didn't realize that about Dr. Chockwas

.

Liara can't die....your chain is getting yanked.

Ok then I'll take your word for it then.  I don't doubt that you know more about the details of Liara than just about anyone on the forum.

Then she should have mentioned that Nyxeris, her assistant, has biotic abilities similar to Liara, and is in fact, working for the Shadow Broker as the Observer. Liara even confides in you outright (assuming the mission is completed successfully) that if it weren't for you, Nyxeris could have jumped her at any time with the advantage, especially once she got suspicious. 

The entire quest you that.

Liara tells you that.

Now consider: Why would a seemingly minor quest with a major character like that be in the game if it did not have consequences for doing it wrong?

Modifié par Ecael, 15 mars 2010 - 06:17 .

[Blackveldt]

I could not care less about default Shepard. Default Shepard is simply in-game marketing since default Shepard is only triggered by a player who has not imported a save (and very possibly has not played ME1/ME2). To place significance on this is rather silly.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Ecael wrote...

Then she should have mentioned that Nyxeris, her assistant, has biotic abilities similar to Liara, and is in fact, working for the Shadow Broker as the Observer. Liara even confides in you outright (assuming the mission is completed successfully) that if it weren't for you, Nyxeris could have jumped her at any time with the advantage, especially once she got suspicious. 

The entire quest you that.

Liara tells you that.

Now consider: Why would seemingly minor quest with a major character like that be in the game if it did not have consequences for doing it wrong?

Now consider: Why would a massively important character be relegated to a minor quest, and told that its to make sure she doesnt get killed and block off whats been planned for her in ME3, only to have her killed as a consequence to said minor quest and block off whats been planned for her in ME3?

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 15 mars 2010 - 06:16 .

[Wittand25]

One possible compromise between pleasing the fans and keeping a budget that I can imagine is that many of the recurring npcs become like Kelly Chambers. That is to say they stay on the normandy or at a space station that serves as Shepard´s homebase and Shepard is able to interact with them there but they wont be available as squadmates.
Because with the mandatory new members (for those that did not play ME2 and have no attachment to the current NPC´s , those who want new ones and those who got a big portion of their ME2 team killed) the cast would simply be to big if 16 of the 17 squadmates from ME1+2 would return.
Having them as stationary npc´s would mean a lot less work for animation, armor and their combat abilities while still allow those that liked them in ME2 to talk and continue their relationship with them.