570 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

It confirmed how !$@#ed we are.

[Sirsmirkalot]

Mass effect 1 for story, Mass effect 2 for combat. Hasn't this been said enough times already?

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 15 mars 2010 - 01:53 .

[Yeled]

Actually, I think maybe looking for major plot progression is a red herring when you're talking the middle chapter of a trilogy. While I for one would have appreciated seeing some, if you think about it, few move the story forward in terms of defeating the bad guy.



What the middle chapters usually accomplish is character development. They add depth and complexity to existing characters, move them forward in terms of their own personal strengths, and further develop existing relationships.



If you don't believe me, look at Empire Strikes Back again for a prime example. Luke develops his understanding of the force and the Jedi order, and comes to learn about his place in the universe (Luke, I am your Father!). Han develops from a scoundrel into a war hero and leader. Leia softens from hardnosed political leader and symbol of the rebellion (and damsel in distress, if you can call her that) to a caring member of the group. Han and Leia become romantically involved,



In terms of defeating the Empire, the major movement forward comes in terms of Luke's progression as a Jedi and his first test when confronting the dark side directly (though the real test is yet to come).



Though Mass Effect 2 fails (in my opinion) to move the plot forward in a significant way, the real failure is that the characters don't develop in any way significantly.

[Knoll Argonar]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...
The plot is based around taking down an enemy associated with the Reapers, the big ultimate antagonist, who is abducting thousands of humans and getting away with it. Combating the Reapers is the ultimate goal, but the immediate threat to humanity is the more pressing issue between that and researching whatever leads about them may be out there. In fact, as it turns out, it's a synergy of both, since we learn about the Reapers as we combat the collectors.

It's coherent and it moves the story forward intelligently when you are talking about a foe that, again, is not pounding its chest like a jackass in plain sight waiting for you to beat its ass. The Reapers are operating through its agents, and you have to deal with the agents to learn about their leaders.

You make some good points; it's nice to see an enemy that doesn't flaunt itself at every--ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL..........turn.  Okay so maybe Harbinger has a bit of an over-inflated ego but they still rely on organics.

My only real problem with the Collectors is that they virtually came out of nowhere yet everyone seems to know about them (though granted, there was no reason to know about them in ME1). 

Then I got to thinking...the Collectors would only show up now because it was humanity that defeated a Reaper.  The Reapers are intrigued by this show of strength and begin abducting hundreds of thousands of human colonists in order to find out what makes them so special and absorb their essence.

It sounds a bit funky at the outset but it makes sense when you connect the dots.

Well, Harbinge quite says that the only species good enought to be a reaper are Humans during combat. Well, unless you want a biotic god reaper or an slow-mo talk one I think that since humanity defeated the Vanguard of their destruction they needed another reaper, and humans were just fine for that role.

And they are quite a Legend in Citadel Space. Only in the Terminus Systems some people know they actually exist, and only because they trade people for tech. So, as you said, there's no reason to know about them in ME1. At least they talk about them in Ascencion.

EDIT

Yeled, you really are pissed about Liara xDDD

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 15 mars 2010 - 01:55 .

[Sirsmirkalot]

Yeled wrote...

Actually, I think maybe looking for major plot progression is a red herring when you're talking the middle chapter of a trilogy. While I for one would have appreciated seeing some, if you think about it, few move the story forward in terms of defeating the bad guy.

What the middle chapters usually accomplish is character development. They add depth and complexity to existing characters, move them forward in terms of their own personal strengths, and further develop existing relationships.

If you don't believe me, look at Empire Strikes Back again for a prime example. Luke develops his understanding of the force and the Jedi order, and comes to learn about his place in the universe (Luke, I am your Father!). Han develops from a scoundrel into a war hero and leader. Leia softens from hardnosed political leader and symbol of the rebellion (and damsel in distress, if you can call her that) to a caring member of the group. Han and Leia become romantically involved,

In terms of defeating the Empire, the major movement forward comes in terms of Luke's progression as a Jedi and his first test when confronting the dark side directly (though the real test is yet to come).

Though Mass Effect 2 fails (in my opinion) to move the plot forward in a significant way, the real failure is that the characters don't develop in any way significantly.

I'd agree with this, if we'd actually keep the characters we recruited for ME3. And at the moment, I doesn't look like it. An early interview about Mass Effect 3 already revealed that Bioware isn't planning to stick with the ME2 squadies and is already creating some new ones.

If the squad members of ME2 were the squad members of ME3, I would be able to forgive Bioware for what they did plot wise. But otherwise, it just feels like ME2 is half a game, when we got up to speed it just stopped. Mass Effect 2 is as it stands a lunchbreak. Something to give us in anticipation of the real sequel, Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 15 mars 2010 - 02:01 .

[Yeled]

Knoll Argonar wrote...


Yeled, you really are pissed about Liara xDDD

Heh.  Well, that didn't help, and I probably would have enjoyed the game more if I had been able to interact with her in a satisfying way.  But honestly I think I'd feel the same way even without the Liara issue.  That's just the most glaring example.

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...

smudboy wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

If the story was crap, no one would care. There wouldn't be any emotional attachment to the story and people would, by and large, be much more disappointed than satisfied. Clearly, plenty of people do care and are looking forward to ME3 which says enough by itself. There are hordes of people itching for more DLC. Anything BioWare says about future content is gobbled up immediately. ME2 upped the ante, gameplay wise, and the story was a different one than maybe some expected but still viable when the main enemy is operating a distance and uses agents to carry out the dirty work, saving their immense power as the last resort.

There are fans of media for a number of reasons.  Media Property X is simply not that important to those people who don't care about it.

What emotional attachment to the main plot in ME2 are you referring to?  Apologies, as I am not arguing the story in general, merely the main plot.  The side missions are quite wonderful.  They're just in the wrong game.

Whether the enemy is having a proxy war or is directly involved is irrelevant.  It is the clarity and coherencey of how that story is told.  Especially if there is continuity (sequels.) I still believe that because BioWare wanted to improve game play.  They first did that (e.g. clips), then tried to form a story around it (i.e. Geth codex exaplanation entry) to explain the change.  Story has become an afterthought, instead of the focus. (Like the intro and ending of ME2.) 

This, and a few other things, is what is keeping ME2 from being great.

The plot is based around taking down an enemy associated with the Reapers, the big ultimate antagonist, who is abducting thousands of humans and getting away with it. Combating the Reapers is the ultimate goal, but the immediate threat to humanity is the more pressing issue between that and researching whatever leads about them may be out there. In fact, as it turns out, it's a synergy of both, since we learn about the Reapers as we combat the collectors.

It's coherent and it moves the story forward intelligently when you are talking about a foe that, again, is not pounding its chest like a jackass in plain sight waiting for you to beat its ass. The Reapers are operating through its agents, and you have to deal with the agents to learn about their leaders.

Again I ask: what emotional attachment?

We barely learn anything about the Reapers, and how to stop them.

I'd say Harbinger controlling the main opposing force and taunting you the entire time was akin to a foe beating his chest like a jackass.

What exactly is coherent and moves the story forward?  The Collector story, or the "defeat the Reapers" story?  Because neither is really that explained, let alone coherently.

[JeanLuc761]

Yeled wrote...

Actually, I think maybe looking for major plot progression is a red herring when you're talking the middle chapter of a trilogy. While I for one would have appreciated seeing some, if you think about it, few move the story forward in terms of defeating the bad guy.

What the middle chapters usually accomplish is character development. They add depth and complexity to existing characters, move them forward in terms of their own personal strengths, and further develop existing relationships.

-snip-

Though Mass Effect 2 fails (in my opinion) to move the plot forward in a significant way, the real failure is that the characters don't develop in any way significantly.

I don't mean to come across as offensive but you're certain we played the same game?  I know Liara and Ashley/Kaiden weren't given much in the way of character development but as for everyone else...

Wrex - Now the leader of Urdnot clan on Tuchanga; a unifying force for the Krogan (huge character development)
Garrus - From disgrunted C-Sec officer to honorable vigilante who gets s*** done.  (mild character development)
Tali - From the fairly naive young woman at the start of Mass Effect, we now have this strong hero of the Quarian people.  Not only is she tasked with important duties, but she her entire loyalty quest is dedicated to expanding both her character and her influence.  That doesn't even include the incredible romance plot she has, assuming Shepard goes for her. (huge character development)

I personally fail to see where the ME1 characters didn't develop significantly.  Maybe it's just me...

[Yeled]

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

I'd agree with this, if we'd actually keep the characters we recruited for ME3. And at the moment, I doesn't look like it. An early interview about Mass Effect 3 already revealed that Bioware isn't planning to stick with the ME2 squadies and is already creating some new ones.

Do you have a link to that interview?!!!

[JeanLuc761]

Yeled wrote...

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

I'd agree with this, if we'd actually keep the characters we recruited for ME3. And at the moment, I doesn't look like it. An early interview about Mass Effect 3 already revealed that Bioware isn't planning to stick with the ME2 squadies and is already creating some new ones.

Do you have a link to that interview?!!!

Yeah, this.  I haven't seen or heard ANYTHING about that.

[Rheinlandman]

 Gotta admit once I finished it, as fun as it was, it felt like the second Pirates of the Caribbean movie.  Its like a freaking intro to the 3rd movie.  (really hated that movie)

I think forging the alliances (Wrex's peeps, starting reconciliation between Geth and Quarian (Legion and Tali)) was important, because that definitely will effect ME3 alot.

Also Grunt and Mordin... totally worth it for those two characters.'

Edit : @ JeanLuc about them switching out the teams,  at the GDC they said that was something they didn't want to do.  Link goes to a slide from the powerpoint at Joystiq.

www.joystiq.com/2010/03/13/bioware-designer-talks-about-goals-for-mass-effect-3/

Modifié par Rheinlandman, 15 mars 2010 - 02:09 .

[Terraneaux]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

It's as simple as telling you that SoI&F is one of the best fantasy series and yet, pick up one book and it's full of those "unexplained plot holes" you hate so much. But no one even dares to say they are poorly written, because they aren't.

Oh, well, not bothering more saying something you won't read.

You're an idiot.  **** that isn't explained is different from plot holes.  SoI&F is a great series, but you obviously are incapable of understanding any literature well enough to make any valid points about them.  

ME2 is poorly written.  It introduces an enemy, then kills that enemy in the same game, like a crappy episodic sci-fi TV show.  It doesn't really explain the enemy's motivation, or even why the Reaper looks like a human.  It's just like LOOK IT'S ARNOLD COWER IN FEAR.  It retcons the beliefs of important NPCs like the council, simply because the writers were too lazy to write a story where the PC actually enjoyed the support of the populace.  

To be honest, I actually enjoy the gameplay changes (sans scanning, but everyone hates that).  The graphics look great, too.  But an RPG needs to have either good story or good characters to be good, and ME2 doesn't have an especially compelling plotline, especially compared to ME1, and your character has pretty much zero personality (I guess because EA knows that Master Chief polls well among the 13-24 crowd).  I'm really, really hoping for a good ME3, but I will definitely be reading the reviews before I buy it, which is something I've never done for a Bioware game before.

[Yeled]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I don't mean to come across as offensive but you're certain we played the same game?  I know Liara and Ashley/Kaiden weren't given much in the way of character development but as for everyone else...

Wrex - Now the leader of Urdnot clan on Tuchanga; a unifying force for the Krogan (huge character development)
Garrus - From disgrunted C-Sec officer to honorable vigilante who gets s*** done.  (mild character development)
Tali - From the fairly naive young woman at the start of Mass Effect, we now have this strong hero of the Quarian people.  Not only is she tasked with important duties, but she her entire loyalty quest is dedicated to expanding both her character and her influence.  That doesn't even include the incredible romance plot she has, assuming Shepard goes for her. (huge character development)

I personally fail to see where the ME1 characters didn't develop significantly.  Maybe it's just me...

I'm not offended by you disagreeing with me.  I'll try to clarify my points, though.

Wrex and Garrus are changed, but they changed outside the context of the story.  The game wasn't about their development.  It told us that they developed.  We didn't see it, and it wasn't because of our interactions with the characters.  The same is true of Liara, btw.

Tali is similar, but I really liked what they did with Tali so its hard for me to complain.  I felt she was much more compelling in ME2 than in ME1.  And you're right...we actually saw a lot of that development in her loyalty mission.  It was a really good mission.

That Liara and Ash/Kaiden are supposed to be really important but basically don't show up at all is a huge problem, of couse.  But that's been debated enough and I don't want that argument to rear its ugly head again.  Well, not here anyway.

The biggest problem, of course, is that our hero remains flat throughout the course of the middle chapter.  That doesn't work if you aren't going to advance the plot.  Shep doesn't grow in a significant way.  She doesn't get stronger.  She isn't more capable of defeating the Reapers than she was at the outset.  She's just unchanging (undying) Shep.  I honestly think this is the biggest weakness.

[JMA22TB]

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Actually, I think maybe looking for major plot progression is a red herring when you're talking the middle chapter of a trilogy. While I for one would have appreciated seeing some, if you think about it, few move the story forward in terms of defeating the bad guy.

What the middle chapters usually accomplish is character development. They add depth and complexity to existing characters, move them forward in terms of their own personal strengths, and further develop existing relationships.

If you don't believe me, look at Empire Strikes Back again for a prime example. Luke develops his understanding of the force and the Jedi order, and comes to learn about his place in the universe (Luke, I am your Father!). Han develops from a scoundrel into a war hero and leader. Leia softens from hardnosed political leader and symbol of the rebellion (and damsel in distress, if you can call her that) to a caring member of the group. Han and Leia become romantically involved,

In terms of defeating the Empire, the major movement forward comes in terms of Luke's progression as a Jedi and his first test when confronting the dark side directly (though the real test is yet to come).

Though Mass Effect 2 fails (in my opinion) to move the plot forward in a significant way, the real failure is that the characters don't develop in any way significantly.

I'd agree with this, if we'd actually keep the characters we recruited for ME3. And at the moment, I doesn't look like it. An early interview about Mass Effect 3 already revealed that Bioware isn't planning to stick with the ME2 squadies and is already creating some new ones.

So in other words, all the character building in ME2 was for nothing...oh wait it was ! So we could go and soccerpunch the collectors, you know, those dudes of that sidequest. ME2 is simply something to keep us bussy for the real sequel, Mass Effect 3.

Just because a squad member isn't still on your squad doesn't mean they don't contribute to the story. Wrex is the most important figure in Tuchanka right now if you save him. Ashley or Kaidan has the potential to become your biggest Alliance ally or rival, depending how much you jump into bed with cerberus. I imagine that the entire squad, if they all survived, will have a role in Mass Effect 3, just not necessarily the squad mate role.

It would make sense that having the whole crew survive will help you out in ME3. I actually want to see some new faces on the crew, because there are always more stories to learn about and it would be intriguing to see a batarian on the team or a spectre.

[smudboy]

Yeled wrote...

Actually, I think maybe looking for major plot progression is a red herring when you're talking the middle chapter of a trilogy. While I for one would have appreciated seeing some, if you think about it, few move the story forward in terms of defeating the bad guy.

Is it just me?  I'm getting a bit tired of "middle of story/it's a bridge" arguments.

Now, main plot progression (The Reapers) is a red herring, because ME2 = 2 of 3?

I'm going to go pickup my bookcase and spin it on my finger.

What the middle chapters usually accomplish is character development. They add depth and complexity to existing characters, move them forward in terms of their own personal strengths, and further develop existing relationships.

If you don't believe me, look at Empire Strikes Back again for a prime example. Luke develops his understanding of the force and the Jedi order, and comes to learn about his place in the universe (Luke, I am your Father!). Han develops from a scoundrel into a war hero and leader. Leia softens from hardnosed political leader and symbol of the rebellion (and damsel in distress, if you can call her that) to a caring member of the group. Han and Leia become romantically involved,

There is 0 characterization or development of Shepard, our protagonist.  And there should be, if they can do it for 11 other side-characters that are all replaceable or useless to the ME2 plot, they can do it for the character we chose to play (with our 6 different selectable backgrounds.)

In terms of defeating the Empire, the major movement forward comes in terms of Luke's progression as a Jedi and his first test when confronting the dark side directly (though the real test is yet to come).

Though Mass Effect 2 fails (in my opinion) to move the plot forward in a significant way, the real failure is that the characters don't develop in any way significantly.

The side-characters do develop quite significantly.  However, that and they are not related to the main plot.  It's essentially 11 other stories whose only continuity is (aside from ME1)  "they're on the same ship, and Shepard asked us to come."  A wasted effort.  Thane could've been any other merc, Samara could've been any other Asari (e.g. oh wait ,we can get her daughter!), Grunt, Jack, Zaeed, etc.  In ME1, we had Tali, Liara and Ashley having multiple motivations for trying to save the galaxy, that were all part of the main plot.

[R34P3RR3D33M3R]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

I'd agree with this, if we'd actually keep the characters we recruited for ME3. And at the moment, I doesn't look like it. An early interview about Mass Effect 3 already revealed that Bioware isn't planning to stick with the ME2 squadies and is already creating some new ones.

Do you have a link to that interview?!!!

Yeah, this.  I haven't seen or heard ANYTHING about that.

I'd also like to see this.

[Rheinlandman]

R34P3RR3D33M3R wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

I'd agree with this, if we'd actually keep the characters we recruited for ME3. And at the moment, I doesn't look like it. An early interview about Mass Effect 3 already revealed that Bioware isn't planning to stick with the ME2 squadies and is already creating some new ones.

Do you have a link to that interview?!!!

Yeah, this.  I haven't seen or heard ANYTHING about that.

I'd also like to see this.

That isnt what they said at the GDC

Link to recap of panel.

www.joystiq.com/2010/03/13/bioware-designer-talks-about-goals-for-mass-effect-3/

Although they will probably give you your surviving ME1 teammates (Kaiden/Ashley and Liara), especially if they were your romance that you stuck with.

Modifié par Rheinlandman, 15 mars 2010 - 02:12 .

[JeanLuc761]

Yeled wrote...
That Liara and Ash/Kaiden are supposed to be really important but basically don't show up at all is a huge problem, of couse.  But that's been debated enough and I don't want that argument to rear its ugly head again.  Well, not here anyway.

The biggest problem, of course, is that our hero remains flat throughout the course of the middle chapter.  That doesn't work if you aren't going to advance the plot.  Shep doesn't grow in a significant way.  She doesn't get stronger.  She isn't more capable of defeating the Reapers than she was at the outset.  She's just unchanging (undying) Shep.  I honestly think this is the biggest weakness.

I can agree with this.  Ashley/Kaiden should have had a bigger role in ME2 rather than to spent 3 minutes talking to you and disappearing.  So much wasted potential...

As for Shepard...that's a tricky one.  On the one hand, if he changes too much then people will **** that "Well...that's not how I would react!"  On the other, if he doesn't change at all, then people say he's flat.  Shepard is and always has been more of a "vessel character" for me as we're supposed to push our own thoughts and feelings into him, as though he was an extension of ourselves. 

I am hoping that Mass Effect 3 can do something with this character though, even if it's just a friendly night on the town with his squad before all hell breaks loose.

[smudboy]

Rheinlandman wrote...

That isnt what they said at the GDC

Link to recap of panel.

www.joystiq.com/2010/03/13/bioware-designer-talks-about-goals-for-mass-effect-3/

Although they will probably give you your surviving ME1 teammates (Kaiden/Ashley and Liara), especially if they were your romance that you stuck with.

You might want to look at this:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

Modifié par smudboy, 15 mars 2010 - 02:15 .

[Urazz]

Yeled wrote...

Actually, I think maybe looking for major plot progression is a red herring when you're talking the middle chapter of a trilogy. While I for one would have appreciated seeing some, if you think about it, few move the story forward in terms of defeating the bad guy.

What the middle chapters usually accomplish is character development. They add depth and complexity to existing characters, move them forward in terms of their own personal strengths, and further develop existing relationships.

If you don't believe me, look at Empire Strikes Back again for a prime example. Luke develops his understanding of the force and the Jedi order, and comes to learn about his place in the universe (Luke, I am your Father!). Han develops from a scoundrel into a war hero and leader. Leia softens from hardnosed political leader and symbol of the rebellion (and damsel in distress, if you can call her that) to a caring member of the group. Han and Leia become romantically involved,

In terms of defeating the Empire, the major movement forward comes in terms of Luke's progression as a Jedi and his first test when confronting the dark side directly (though the real test is yet to come).

Though Mass Effect 2 fails (in my opinion) to move the plot forward in a significant way, the real failure is that the characters don't develop in any way significantly.

ME2 actually moved things forward by giving us a more specific reason why the Reapers are doing their routine harvests of organic species, We learn the council is sticking it's head in the sand again no matter what version of the council you get, and we also learn that Saren was right that the reapers wouldn't discard their organic slaves as long as they stay useful like he said (though obviously not in the way he wanted I think) with learning what happened to the Protheans.

We learn quite alot about the Geth (if you dont' sell legion) and the Quarians as well in which both are being set up as major players in ME3.

And finally, we learn about Dark Energy which may play a role in ME3 in some form.

Also, on The Empire Strikes Back, you can't really count Luke's progression as a Jedi as defeating the Empire.  That was more setup for defeating the empire in the 3rd part of that trilogy, Return of the Jedi.  There wasn't any actual defeating of the Empire in The Empire strikes back.

[Throw_this_away]

Op

I agree that not much was advanced in regards to the overall story (we just fought off a different Reaper invason strategy), but we did get insigt into the forces that are working to stop the reapers (Cerberus).  

Did ME2 accomplish anything plotwise?  I think it did so long as it plans to bring back the majority of characters for ME3 to use as squadmates.  The reapers may be the big bad guys here... but the characters of the story are a huge part of the story/plot.  I liked the focus on them in ME2.    If the plan is not to bring most everyone back as squadmates, then ME2 was just a amazing game that does little to advance the overall trilogy. 

[Yeled]

smudboy wrote...

 However, that and they are not related to the main plot.  It's essentially 11 other stories whose only continuity is (aside from ME1)  "they're on the same ship, and Shepard asked us to come."  A wasted effort.  Thane could've been any other merc, Samara could've been any other Asari (e.g. oh wait ,we can get her daughter!), Grunt, Jack, Zaeed, etc.  In ME1, we had Tali, Liara and Ashley having multiple motivations for trying to save the galaxy, that were all part of the main plot.

Sometimes I can't tell who's side you're on, Smud.  But I do agree 100 percent with your last point.  It is amatuerish to introduce a bunch of characters who could be any characters of similar archetype and force them into the main plot and call that a good cast.

Jacob and Miranda fit.  Tali and Garrus fit because they fit with Shep, and honestly that's a stronger tie than even Jacob has.  The others are basically unimportant to the main storyline.

[JMA22TB]

smudboy wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

smudboy wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

If the story was crap, no one would care. There wouldn't be any emotional attachment to the story and people would, by and large, be much more disappointed than satisfied. Clearly, plenty of people do care and are looking forward to ME3 which says enough by itself. There are hordes of people itching for more DLC. Anything BioWare says about future content is gobbled up immediately. ME2 upped the ante, gameplay wise, and the story was a different one than maybe some expected but still viable when the main enemy is operating a distance and uses agents to carry out the dirty work, saving their immense power as the last resort.

There are fans of media for a number of reasons.  Media Property X is simply not that important to those people who don't care about it.

What emotional attachment to the main plot in ME2 are you referring to?  Apologies, as I am not arguing the story in general, merely the main plot.  The side missions are quite wonderful.  They're just in the wrong game.

Whether the enemy is having a proxy war or is directly involved is irrelevant.  It is the clarity and coherencey of how that story is told.  Especially if there is continuity (sequels.) I still believe that because BioWare wanted to improve game play.  They first did that (e.g. clips), then tried to form a story around it (i.e. Geth codex exaplanation entry) to explain the change.  Story has become an afterthought, instead of the focus. (Like the intro and ending of ME2.) 

This, and a few other things, is what is keeping ME2 from being great.

The plot is based around taking down an enemy associated with the Reapers, the big ultimate antagonist, who is abducting thousands of humans and getting away with it. Combating the Reapers is the ultimate goal, but the immediate threat to humanity is the more pressing issue between that and researching whatever leads about them may be out there. In fact, as it turns out, it's a synergy of both, since we learn about the Reapers as we combat the collectors.

It's coherent and it moves the story forward intelligently when you are talking about a foe that, again, is not pounding its chest like a jackass in plain sight waiting for you to beat its ass. The Reapers are operating through its agents, and you have to deal with the agents to learn about their leaders.

Again I ask: what emotional attachment?

We barely learn anything about the Reapers, and how to stop them.

I'd say Harbinger controlling the main opposing force and taunting you the entire time was akin to a foe beating his chest like a jackass.

What exactly is coherent and moves the story forward?  The Collector story, or the "defeat the Reapers" story?  Because neither is really that explained, let alone coherently.

Well, for one, your opposition to the story's plot. All the threads wondering what's going to happen next. All the unanswered questions that are the focus of a ton of speculation.

Again, the Collectors are agents of the Reapers. Stopping them removes the threat they pose to humanity, introduced more knowledge about the Reapers, and frees Shepard up to focus on stopping the Reapers, following leads that will help you fight them. They were the next wave sent by the Reapers to facilitate their return with as little opposition as possible. Take out the colonist humans for processing, ****** off the ones who already want more power in the council, potentially cause a civil war that further destabilizes the galaxy, and maybe even catch Earth off guard. The Reapers want the path of least resistance, and the Collectors, up until the point you stopped them, were the best way to do that.

Also, Harbinger taunting you is not what i mean at all. I meant the Reapers keeping their existence secret and evidence of their influence. He can taunt you all he wants; he knows you can't convince anyone the Reapers exist until you have proof and wants to get in your head as much as possible.

Modifié par JMA22TB, 15 mars 2010 - 02:26 .

[Yeled]

Urazz wrote...

Also, on The Empire Strikes Back, you can't really count Luke's progression as a Jedi as defeating the Empire.  That was more setup for defeating the empire in the 3rd part of that trilogy, Return of the Jedi.  There wasn't any actual defeating of the Empire in The Empire strikes back.

Right.  That is what I was saying.  Luke's personal progression is how the story moved forward, and will ultimately lead to the defeat of the Empire.  But it doesn't occur in the middle chapter.