570 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

Yeled wrote...

Right.  That is what I was saying.  Luke's personal progression is how the story moved forward, and will ultimately lead to the defeat of the Empire.  But it doesn't occur in the middle chapter.

Well, it does.  He challenges Vader before he's ready, and he has to recover from his loss and get himself spiritually centered or whatever.  Shep doesn't do any of that, Shep doesn't learn a damn thing over the course of ME2.  

[smudboy]

Yeled wrote...

smudboy wrote...

 However, that and they are not related to the main plot.  It's essentially 11 other stories whose only continuity is (aside from ME1)  "they're on the same ship, and Shepard asked us to come."  A wasted effort.  Thane could've been any other merc, Samara could've been any other Asari (e.g. oh wait ,we can get her daughter!), Grunt, Jack, Zaeed, etc.  In ME1, we had Tali, Liara and Ashley having multiple motivations for trying to save the galaxy, that were all part of the main plot.

Sometimes I can't tell who's side you're on, Smud.  But I do agree 100 percent with your last point.  It is amatuerish to introduce a bunch of characters who could be any characters of similar archetype and force them into the main plot and call that a good cast.

Jacob and Miranda fit.  Tali and Garrus fit because they fit with Shep, and honestly that's a stronger tie than even Jacob has.  The others are basically unimportant to the main storyline.

Haha.  I'm on the side of reason and logic.  I am the enemy of enthusiasm.

Let alone the plot being a suicide mission.  Did you even notice why they're coming, let alone their point?  I go over the character motivations here:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/912920/3#976205

All suicide missions roles fit those 4 characters, but unfortunately, they're all replaceable.  The only one that comes remotely close to being main plot specific is Mordin, who merely acts as a plot device (his defense against swarms.)

[JMA22TB]

Terraneaux wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Right.  That is what I was saying.  Luke's personal progression is how the story moved forward, and will ultimately lead to the defeat of the Empire.  But it doesn't occur in the middle chapter.

Well, it does.  He challenges Vader before he's ready, and he has to recover from his loss and get himself spiritually centered or whatever.  Shep doesn't do any of that, Shep doesn't learn a damn thing over the course of ME2.  

Nope, Shepard is an ignorant jackass that doesn't know:

-The Reapers are a biosynthetic fusion of AI programs and millions of processed organics
-The Collectors are the manifestation of the Reapers' genetic rewriting
-The base centered in the galactic core has more information about the Reapers than anywhere else in the galaxy.

[Yeled]

smudboy wrote...

Rheinlandman wrote...

That isnt what they said at the GDC

Link to recap of panel.

www.joystiq.com/2010/03/13/bioware-designer-talks-about-goals-for-mass-effect-3/

Although they will probably give you your surviving ME1 teammates (Kaiden/Ashley and Liara), especially if they were your romance that you stuck with.

You might want to look at this:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

While that is certainly interesting, Christina Norman is speaking to gameplay changes, not story changes.

[Terraneaux]

JMA22TB wrote...

Nope, Shepard is an ignorant jackass that doesn't know:

-The Reapers are a biosynthetic fusion of AI programs and millions of processed organics
-The Collectors are the manifestation of the Reapers' genetic rewriting
-The base centered in the galactic core has more information about the Reapers than anywhere else in the galaxy. 

I didn't mean learn as in 'absorb information.'  I meant learn as in 'grow and evolve.'  Also technically we don't know that all Reapers are like that thing in the Collector Base, that's just speculation.  Yes, we found out the Collectors are the Protheans, but does it really matter?  Honestly, Shep should have been able to figure that out on his or her own, considering he or she has the Cipher and the beacon message in their head, but apparently it's too much for Shep to do *any* figuring out of things on their own in this game, it always has to be prompted by an NPC.  

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...

Well, for one, your opposition to the story's plot. All the threads wondering what's going to happen next. All the unanswered questions that are the focus of a ton of speculation.

Again, the Collectors are agents of the Reapers. Stopping them removes the threat they pose to humanity, introduced more knowledge about the Reapers, and frees Shepard up to focus on stopping the Reapers, following leads that will help you fight them. They were the next wave sent by the Reapers to facilitate their return with as little opposition as possible. Take out the colonist humans for processing, ****** off the ones who already want more power in the council, potentially cause a civil war that further destabilizes the galaxy, and maybe even catch Earth off guard. The Reapers want the path of least resistance, and the Collectors, up until the point you stopped them, were the best way to do that.

Also, Harbinger taunting you is not what i mean at all. I meant the Reapers keeping their existence secret and evidence of their influence. He can taunt you all he wants; he knows you can't convince anyone the Reapers exist until you have proof and wants to get in your head as much as possible.

I don't oppose the story's plot, nor am I emotional for or against it.  I merely know it was a hack job.  That's not drama for me: that's me laughing at people who think there's some masterful work of fiction because Heavy Weapons are so much fun, and you attack a disembodied embryo terminator in the eyes for massive damage.

No offense, but what you stated about the Collectors sounds like speculation.  1) They aren't the next wave, they've been around for 50k years (and magically weren't at the siege of the Citadel with the Geth), 2) How are they pissing off the council?, 3) How are they creating a civil war?, 4) Why/how are they catching Earth off guard?  If you were referring to that comment one of your squadmates make about "their next target is Earth", that's speculation on their behalf, 5) I can assure you, the path of least resistance/most efficient does not involve playing "will it blend?" with humans in constructing a bio-metal human Reaper, nor is it the best.  Unless you're stupid (which the Reapers clearly are.  With all that technology they could've made one massive ship, let alone severeal superior ships, along with the Collector cruiser, sieged the Citadel, and won.  After 50k years, I think they'd have the time and resources.)

How does he know Shepard can't convince anyone?  Again, I apologize, but I strongly feel you're speculating again.

Modifié par smudboy, 15 mars 2010 - 03:02 .

[Ellestor]

It seems to me that it accomplished what the middle of a trilogy usually does: darkening the story, raising the stakes, encouraging doubt, and raising more questions than it answers.

[JediPilot0]

Okay, so this thread has grown by 5 pages since I've last been here. Another thing about ME2 vs 1 is even though ME2 is touted as being much more "personal" it's quite the opposite. Nothing in this game had as great personal moments as when you became a Spectre, or emerged limping from the Citadel rubble.



Here's a good link about it:



http://metagame.org/...ffect-2-part-2/

[JediPilot0]

Ellestor wrote...

It seems to me that it accomplished what the middle of a trilogy usually does: darkening the story, raising the stakes, encouraging doubt, and raising more questions than it answers.

What stakes were raised that weren't present in ME1?

[smudboy]

Yeled wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Rheinlandman wrote...

That isnt what they said at the GDC

Link to recap of panel.

www.joystiq.com/2010/03/13/bioware-designer-talks-about-goals-for-mass-effect-3/

Although they will probably give you your surviving ME1 teammates (Kaiden/Ashley and Liara), especially if they were your romance that you stuck with.

You might want to look at this:

http://prezi.com/6xe...y-inventory-go/

While that is certainly interesting, Christina Norman is speaking to gameplay changes, not story changes.

I was just throwing it out there.  Not related to my story arguments.

But look at one of the last slides:
"Same team", "Gameplay focus", "Core gameplay", "More combat options", "More complex enemies."  Obviously I doubt they'd put a story presentation in public, let alone if she listed "make a better story/fix plot holes" as one of the things to fix with her magical programming powers.

The only two that sound remotely hopeful are "richer RPG features" and "polish everything."  Which hopefully translates to "richer story" and "polished story."

One can hope.

[Ellestor]

JediPilot0 wrote...

Ellestor wrote...

It seems to me that it accomplished what the middle of a trilogy usually does: darkening the story, raising the stakes, encouraging doubt, and raising more questions than it answers.

What stakes were raised that weren't present in ME1?

Point.

I suppose that I should say that they are emphasized.

Knowing something more of the fate of the Protheans, given the mystery of Harbinger's special interest in Shepard, given the revelation that the Reapers are built to resemble the species harvested to create them (which raises questions about all the identical cephalopodic Reapers shown at the end), given first-hand insight into the quarian/geth situation, and making influential choices in regards to some of these things—it all seems to be a wind-up, to me.

Modifié par Ellestor, 15 mars 2010 - 02:52 .

[smudboy]

JediPilot0 wrote...

Okay, so this thread has grown by 5 pages since I've last been here. Another thing about ME2 vs 1 is even though ME2 is touted as being much more "personal" it's quite the opposite. Nothing in this game had as great personal moments as when you became a Spectre, or emerged limping from the Citadel rubble.

Here's a good link about it:

http://metagame.org/...ffect-2-part-2/

Good find.

I'm sure you probably read this, too:

www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/

[Yeled]

JediPilot0 wrote...

Okay, so this thread has grown by 5 pages since I've last been here. Another thing about ME2 vs 1 is even though ME2 is touted as being much more "personal" it's quite the opposite. Nothing in this game had as great personal moments as when you became a Spectre, or emerged limping from the Citadel rubble.

Here's a good link about it:

http://metagame.org/...ffect-2-part-2/

Didn't read the article, but I agree with your point.  ME1 was immersive because it was so very personal.  I never felt that in ME2.  It was always about the squadmates.

I don't know if this plays out in all ME1 playthroughs, because is might only be part of the Liara romance, but there is a scene after the Council rejects what you're saying about Saren.  Shepard is frustrated and distraught, and Liara comes to comfort her and encourage her.  This is where their relationship deepens and they almost kiss (Joker interrupts them).  For those who know it, it occurs on the floor by the lockers.

It was such a touching, personal moment.  I still remember it and I haven't played that scene in two years.  It was a great romance scene, but more than that it showed Shepard in the raw, full of anguish as she faced an impossible situation and was getting thwarted by the politicians at every turn.  It was part of the main plot, and it was absolutely fantastic storytelling because Shepard wasn't just being tough guy Jack Bauer in space.  She was being a real person. 

There is no scene like it in ME2.

(And yes, the Liara reunion in ME2 hurts!)

Modifié par Yeled, 15 mars 2010 - 02:50 .

[KnotEngaged]

This is the problem that the 2nd entry in any trilogy always has to be weary of. Feeling incomplete. You see it all the time in movie trilogies, where the 2nd film feels more like a bridge/set-up for the 3rd film, rather than a stand alone entry. ME2 has this problem, it is dependent on what the 3rd game has in store when it comes to finishing out the story. I enjoy serialized narratives, but it can feel unsatisfying when you don't have the "true ending".

[smudboy]

Yeled wrote...

JediPilot0 wrote...

Okay, so this thread has grown by 5 pages since I've last been here. Another thing about ME2 vs 1 is even though ME2 is touted as being much more "personal" it's quite the opposite. Nothing in this game had as great personal moments as when you became a Spectre, or emerged limping from the Citadel rubble.

Here's a good link about it:

http://metagame.org/...ffect-2-part-2/

Didn't read the article, but I agree with your point.  ME1 was immersive because it was so very personal.  I never felt that in ME2.  It was always about the squadmates.

I don't know if this plays out in all ME1 playthroughs, because is might only be part of the Liara romance, but there is a scene after the Council rejects what you're saying about Saren.  Shepard is frustrated and distraught, and Liara comes to comfort her and encourage her.  This is where their relationship deepens and they almost kiss (Joker interrupts them).  For those who know it, it occurs on the floor by the lockers.

It was such a touching, personal moment.  I still remember it and I haven't played that scene in two years.  It was a great romance scene, but more than that it showed Shepard in the raw, full of anguish as she faced an impossible situation and was getting thwarted by the politicians at every turn.  It was part of the main plot, and it was absolutely fantastic storytelling because Shepard wasn't just being tough guy Jack Bauer in space.  She was being a real person. 

There is no scene like it in ME2.

(And yes, the Liara reunion in ME2 hurts!)

Agreement.  That whole "slump against the locker" was subtle as hell.  But we at least got it!  Also, the fact that after that, Shepard then betrays the Council to go save the universe is classic Hero's Journey stuff.

Mmm, writing. Isn't it beautiful when done well?

[Yeled]

JediPilot0 wrote...

Okay, so this thread has grown by 5 pages since I've last been here. Another thing about ME2 vs 1 is even though ME2 is touted as being much more "personal" it's quite the opposite. Nothing in this game had as great personal moments as when you became a Spectre, or emerged limping from the Citadel rubble.

Here's a good link about it:

http://metagame.org/...ffect-2-part-2/

Ok, now I read it.  I agree, especially about how the story isn't about Shep.  Good article.

[smudboy]

KnotEngaged wrote...

This is the problem that the 2nd entry in any trilogy always has to be weary of. Feeling incomplete. You see it all the time in movie trilogies, where the 2nd film feels more like a bridge/set-up for the 3rd film, rather than a stand alone entry. ME2 has this problem, it is dependent on what the 3rd game has in store when it comes to finishing out the story. I enjoy serialized narratives, but it can feel unsatisfying when you don't have the "true ending".

No, no it doesn't.

I refuse to believe "because it's 2 of 3, it will suck" philosophy.  That's like saying "every quest story will end in an anti-climax", or some ridiculous maxim.

ME2 could've felt incredibly engaging, logical, personal and dramatic.  And stood alone, and been a sequel.  But the focus of ME2 was game play and side-characters; not main plot, not ME2 main plot, and definitely not main character development.

You'd have hoped with all these talking heads and voice actors they could still tell a decent story, huh?  (REGARDLESS of it being numbero deuce.)

[Yeled]

Agreed, Smud. ME2 doesn't fail for me because it feels incomplete. It fails for me because it dosent resonate personally or emotionally for me. Its not about Shepard or her story, or if it is its an incidental part.

[JMA22TB]

smudboy wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Well, for one, your opposition to the story's plot. All the threads wondering what's going to happen next. All the unanswered questions that are the focus of a ton of speculation.

Again, the Collectors are agents of the Reapers. Stopping them removes the threat they pose to humanity, introduced more knowledge about the Reapers, and frees Shepard up to focus on stopping the Reapers, following leads that will help you fight them. They were the next wave sent by the Reapers to facilitate their return with as little opposition as possible. Take out the colonist humans for processing, ****** off the ones who already want more power in the council, potentially cause a civil war that further destabilizes the galaxy, and maybe even catch Earth off guard. The Reapers want the path of least resistance, and the Collectors, up until the point you stopped them, were the best way to do that.

Also, Harbinger taunting you is not what i mean at all. I meant the Reapers keeping their existence secret and evidence of their influence. He can taunt you all he wants; he knows you can't convince anyone the Reapers exist until you have proof and wants to get in your head as much as possible.

I don't oppose the story's plot, nor am I emotional for or against it.  I merely know it was a hack job.  That's not drama for me: that's me laughing at people who think there's some masterful work of fiction because Heavy Weapons are so much fun, and you attack a disembodied embryo terminator in the eyes for massive damage.

No offense, but what you stated about the Collectors sounds like speculation.  1) They aren't the next wave, they've been around for 50k years (and magically weren't at the siege of the Citadel with the Geth), 2) How are they pissing off the council?, 3) How are they creating a civil war?, 3) Why/how are they catching Earth off guard?  If you were referring to that comment one of your squadmates make about "their next target is Earth", that's speculation on their behalf, 4) I can assure you, the path of least resistance/most efficient does not involve playing "will it blend?" with humans in constructing a bio-metal human Reaper, nor is it the best.  Unless you're stupid (which the Reapers clearly are.  With all that technology they could've made one massive ship, let alone severeal superior ships, along with the Collector cruiser, sieged the Citadel, and won.  After 50k years, I think they'd have the time and resources.)

How does he know Shepard can't convince anyone?  Again, I apologize, but I strongly feel you're speculating again.

I laugh at people who just like the game for Heavy Weapons too, which is not relevant at all to the points I have been making.

I was speculating what would happen if the Collector plan succeeded, which would make the battlefield more favorable. Obviously that didn't happen, but it punctuates the threat by considering what would have happened if it wasn't contained. That adds context to the threat, which you seem to think was negligible when it certainly wasn't.

The Reapers have been caught off guard with their main plan, activating the Citadel relay, being screwed up by the Protheans through the Ilos scientists. They did not anticipate that or know about it until the time came where they felt it was opportune to harvest. That started the ****storm that has them on the brink of being defeated. If they knew about it at the time, they'd have simply fixed the problem and their plans would have been unimpeded. They have to adjust against a vastly stronger batch than they've faced before so they have to do it the way they are. They had also been carrying out that plan, which was genius, for millions of years, so why would they anticipate that. Sure, building a fleet for the collectors would be smart, but it was hardly necessary under the paradigm they have had for as long as they had of knowing the Citadel would work and that it's the perfect trap.

They aren't omniscient but they are well-informed, as indicated by the trap they laid on the cruiser, their usage of the Shadow Broker regarding Shepard's body and their possible usage of him to gather intel (again speculation but based on a precedent set in the comic), which makes my guess about Harbinger well-informed because that it is likely aware of how Shepard is viewed politically.

Is it all spelled out neatly? No. It doesn't need to be. Some parts of the plot are unsaid hints, which is more intruiging than what you seem to prefer, a basic and uncomplicated spelling out of the story that lacks complexity.

In a sense, you're thinking a bit like the Council, requiring a bunch of solid evidence without thinking outside the confines of logic. Open up a bit Besides, all those questions raised will be answered in ME3 one way or another and will, in retrospect, add more to the experience, just like how Empire Strikes back became more appreciable once Return of the Jedi came out.

[Kalfear]

Did ME2 accomplish anything [plot wise?

Nope.

What it did was close up alot of annoying opened ended situations from ME1 that the new shooter first devs of ME2 didnt want hanging over their heads.

Please notice we didnt get any NEW option situations in ME2, everything had closure with no future promises beyond the Floatilla and message from Rachni (if you played and saved them in ME1).

ME2 was all about closing off communications and getting more linear in design.

Plot wasnt advanced at all from my veiw point, which is one of my main complaints with ME2.

[JMA22TB]

Ellestor wrote...

It seems to me that it accomplished what the middle of a trilogy usually does: darkening the story, raising the stakes, encouraging doubt, and raising more questions than it answers.

Which is more valuable than answering a bunch of questions that really should be left for the end of the story

[Arhka]

Plotwise, I doubt we'll see any actual progression from ME2 by itself. However, once ME3 comes out, the connection that ME2 makes between ME1 and ME3 should become more clear. ME2 was more character development and background into the Reapers.

[JediPilot0]

smudboy wrote...

JediPilot0 wrote...

Okay, so this thread has grown by 5 pages since I've last been here. Another thing about ME2 vs 1 is even though ME2 is touted as being much more "personal" it's quite the opposite. Nothing in this game had as great personal moments as when you became a Spectre, or emerged limping from the Citadel rubble.

Here's a good link about it:

http://metagame.org/...ffect-2-part-2/

Good find.

I'm sure you probably read this, too:

www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/

Wow, that was an amazing read. I just read all 3 parts. Aside from a few errors here and there, it pretty much exactly mirrors how I feel. What the hell, Bioware?

Thanks, Smudboy. Everyone should read those 3 pages.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 15 mars 2010 - 03:26 .