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[RhythmlessNinja]

To sum this up without a long winded pointless text wall, ME2 you are still preparing for the reapers, killing off the collectors helped that cause. From doing so, you gained more strong allies and made one huge enemy (if you destroyed the base). Makes plenty of sense to me, part 3 is the huge battle, ME2 is the calm before the storm. And there you have mass effect 2.

[Yeled]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


I'm not saying that each of these party members was particularly inspired. But I don't see how Thane looking for an opportunity to die is any less than Garrus' desire to break free of C-sec restrictions.

Garrus wasn't looking to break free of C-Sec restrictions.  Well, he was.  But that's not his motivation.

He was motivated to hunt Saren because he was assigned that case by C-Sec before it was shut down.  He wanted to pursue that case because he knew Saren was eviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil.

[Sigma Tauri]

Yeled wrote...
Garrus wasn't looking to break free of C-Sec restrictions.  Well, he was.  But that's not his motivation.

He was motivated to hunt Saren because he was assigned that case by C-Sec before it was shut down.  He wanted to pursue that case because he knew Saren was eviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil.

He wanted to experience what it's like to be a Spectre, where justice can be pursued through any means. His motivation against Saren is as well him projecting his previous frustrations on bureaucracy as well as perceiving him as a real threat. It's still only a motivational tangent as Thane's.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 15 mars 2010 - 09:32 .

[IoCaster]

Well I've read up to page thirteen and I've got a lot to say. First off, I've got a nit that needs to be picked. The perception that the ME2 squad is either 'Elite' and/or 'Best' of anything related to combat is silly. They are simply what the devs thought would be cool characters and nothing else. The only ME2 squad members that would conceivably be part of any Spec Ops team are:

1) Jacob - Military training and experienced combatant.
2) Mordin - Retired member of Salarian STG. A bit old in my opinion, but at least has experience.
3) Zaeed - This is pushing it, but at least has a wide range of experience with small combat teams (mercs)
4) Garrus - This is also pushing it, but he has more experience than the rest of the misfits on board the ship.

The rest of the bunch wouldn't make the cut.

1) Jack - A murderous criminal psycho with no self control. What elite military unit would even consider her for membership? Honestly, I'm at a loss to even understand why anyone would want her as a romance option. Different strokes, I guess. 

2) Tali - Cool character, great tech and well written, but what qualification as an elite soldier does she have?

3) Samara - An Asari vigilante on a 400 year running manhunt. Seriously, aren't there any real Asari commando types available? You know, someone with actual team combat experience and military training. Maybe a bit younger. Oh, I guess we can at least swap her out for Morinth. Huh?

4) Miranda - She admits to not having any military training. I'm not going to go off on another rant about her, but I will if anyone is really interested. Suffice it to say that I thought her character was perhaps the worst written in the game. Strictly included for gamers to ogle and romance. Not to be taken seriously for the role she's tasked with in the game. 

5) Grunt - A recently hatched pure berserker. Awesome...not! No military discipline and suitable only as cannon fodder. Certainly not elite by any definition. 

6) Thane - An assassin for hire. No known experience in a military unit. Why bother when you can get a real military specialist that's younger and just as capable with a sniper rifle? Beside the fact that there wasn't any particular need for an assassin on the mission anyway. Included in the game with the express purpose of being a cool alien romance option for female gamers.

7) Legion - A case could be made for it's utility as an elite squad member, but the late arrival and uncertain motivation raises legitimate questions.

I can understand including Tali and Garrus to satisfy the demands of the fans and as a simple gesture of good will by BioWare. The rest of the squad are a disparate group of individuals that were included in the game because the devs thought they were cool characters. There is nothing about them that specifically defines them as elite Spec Ops type operatives.

Cool characters are cool, but how the heck are they a necessary part of the main story plot to defeat the Reapers when you can literally kill them off? All you need to do is keep Garrus and Tali, or any other duo, alive at the end of the game for your own Shep to survive. So the end result is that the 'elite' squad you recruited to help you save the galaxy is totally unnecessary for the series to continue in ME3. Any claim that the game serves the purpose of assembling this 'elite' squad to help defeat the Reapers in ME3 is dubious at best and a real stretch.

If you didn't play ME you won't have Wrex to supposedly rally the Krogan to the cause. You won't have the Rachni. If you didn't bother with the Tali loyalty mission and/or if you sold Legion to Cerberus, how do you acquire the Geth or Quarians as allies? How can any of this stuff be crucial to the main plot if it's entirely optional in ME2?

The end result is that we've come full circle and find ourselves back where we were at the conclusion of ME. We know a bit more about the Reapers and...? 

There's a whole bunch of speculation and attempts to fill in the gaps of the main plot progression with wholly made up 'facts' by some of the posters in this thread. This sh!t wouldn't be necessary in the first place if the writers had done a credible job of stitching together the two stories that take place across both games. It's already been outlined upstream in this thread how nonsensical it is for the player to be working for Cerberus and all of the other inconsistencies that crop up in ME2. They rebooted the series for gameplay or design reasons and did a ****** poor job of writing themselves out of the corner they placed themselves in. 

It's a great game that makes very little sense in the grand scheme. Perhaps they'll pull off the greatest comeback in game writing history, but I really can't imagine how they'll put Humpty Dumpty back together again. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

smudboy wrote...
1) I heard the little sound bite someone found about Liara and the Shadow Broker.  Odd how BioWare doesn't clean its own asset list...
2) The fact that I played as an Akuze survivor and was brought back to life by Cerberus should've been insta-conflict.  Instead we get nothing.  This would've been key.
3) I'm referring to the scope of the plot . We're talking GALACTIC GENOCIDE.  "Hello?  Shepard?  Could you please pick up the diplomatic/influencial skills here?  Get some hard evidence?  Fate of the galaxy and all?"  No other plot has come close, and the protagonist (who's worthy of being called as such) needs to be MUCH more effective at convincing fellows to help him save the galaxy, instead of just shrugging them off.  One, kidnap the Turian and Solarian councellor.  Two, mind meld with the Asari councellor, showing her the fate of the Protheans and all those nasty Reaper/Cipher/Ilos memories you've got buried in your brain.  Hell, get Shiala and Liara to do it too.
4) The fact he's a hero and officially Space Jesus should command some attention and influence aside from "discounts at a store."

2) See, I thought otherwise. Perhaps they have their own motives, but Cerberus *did* just bring you back from the dead. That at least would necessitate hearing them out.
3) The Illusive Man does indicate several problems with this. Commander Shepard killed a Reaper. Collectors begin exclusively harvesting humans in the tens of thousands in the Terminus Systems. TIM indicates a clear connection between the two. I would say the more immediate threat of the Collectors, who had just gone about blowing Shepard to hell I might add, would be a little higher on the priority list than machines who are just emerging from dark space. The Council is being stupid, yes, but that's also standard politics for you even in the face of genocide. There was not enough material evidence, even from the Reaper corpse, to force them to see reason. So you went about it your own way with Cerberus.
4) This is 100% accurate.

Laugh all you want.  At least it was there.  Ditto with the MAKO for a sense of scope of the world we're in.

I'm sorry but exploring world after world of generic content does not give a better scope of the universe. It indicates laziness on the part of the developers. ME was entirely a main quest experience; I don't even consider it as having side quests.

Back to the backgrounds, they're lame period. I realized it the minute I saw the opening screen with Udina and Anderson talking. I'd chosen Earth-born and ruthless. 'Two lines of dialogue on why Earth-born is the best type of soldier followed by two lines of dialogue on why ruthless is the best type of soldier'. And it's the same with any 2 combinations. That is not gaming depth; that's laziness.

I did enjoy the scene with Shepard holding his side after battling sovereign, but if anything this is expanded on in ME2. ME1 evolved the game in terms of giving you a spoken character. ME2 improved this further by adding realistic motions and hand gestures for you and your companions. Those little instances that you describe are honestly everywhere in ME2. I particularly enjoyed watching Thane look out at the stars while he was explaining his life to you.

This is true.  But it needs to tie into the main plot.  Talking heads and prettier graphics mean zip if it doesn't progress the story, provide backstory, and characterization, and not just for side characters.

This I can agree with, but it's still simply errors that each game possessed. Second game had less story. First game had pretty unbelievable character interaction. I'm talking to Garrus for five minutes....and he stays in the same exact position all that time? That does not add to the emotional depth factor. Let's hope ME3 ties both of them together in a better fashion.

And it goes nowhere.  They don't argue.  They just nod their heads.  No conflict, no change, no argument.  Just "Yeah Jacob, I'm thinking exactly what you're thinking.  Cerberus is a pretty shady place." *crickets chirping*

Weren't you just describing on how the Mako and backgrounds were 'at least something'? Well, this is yet another instance of that. My point is that we do see issues spring up because Shepard agrees to work with Cerberus. In fact, everyone seems to have an issue with it to the point that Miranda clearly could not have fulfilled that function herself in recruiting a team of specialistis. I'd say everyone, from Ashley to Jack to Anderson, questioning you as a human being fits the definition of 'conflict' pretty well. To top it all off, at the end of the game you can further define your relationship with Cerberus if you choose to blow up the facility. I chose not to, 'everyone' seems bothered by this.

In case you haven't noticed, Commander
Right.  So he's brought back for a symbol?  Okay.  He's got some notoriety, and the fact he's now Space Jesus.  But does anyone (aside from some NPCs and Garrus) care?

And if the Collectors are so mysterious, why don't we learn about them and how to attack them (who/what/where/etc), before just getting random people on board?  Why do we need a band of mercs and combat specialists, as opposed to ship/sensor/information specialists?  We need to know our enemy before any planning is invovled.  We're assembling a squad: for what?  First get a physical, known enemy target, then plan for it.  A poster above stated they'd want to get some nuclear warheads, and I'd agree: you could be attacking ANYTHING.  You don't need an army or specialists, because you don't know what they're going to be used for.  Getting an extra character was the equivalent of buying fish, or quality food rations for the mess seargent: why the f*ck not.

I'd say it extends a little farther than that. The first human Spectre, his squad took down a Reaper, tracked Saren, Shepard right now represents the best of the best. Cerberus wants to capitalize on that. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

And is it hard to imagine that while you're off recruiting your team and such that the Illusive Man is doing the information gathering himself? He says so in fact before you're given the Normandy. You're told to recruit your team while he gains any information on what the Reapers are planning. This is why he's responsible for handing out all your missions- he does have specialists on the job. Were you hoping that Shepard was going to be on another investigation hunter as with Saren?

It also was never his plan to send you through the Omega IV relay unprepared. He explains that no ship has survived, so it would have been pointless. The human colony mission, collector ship, reaper ship, etc. These are all related to understanding your new enemy, how they function, and what is beyond the Omega IV relay. The team, the ship, the AI were all designed to prepare for any Unforseen Consequences, to quote Half-Life. Biotic specialist? Grab Jack. Need to fix something? Tali. Identify enemy aircraft? EDI.

The goal of ME1 was to stop Saren, find the Conduit.  We didn't know what or where the Conduit was.  But we slowly find these things out.  But, we weren't trying to destroy it, let alone an entire species.  We were exploring to discover it, and prevent Saren from having it, and we still didn't know till we actually got really close to it via Vigil (and could argue its validity/usefulness in response to Saren's poor behavior.)

In ME2 our goal is to "Fight the Collectors."  This is a very specific kind of goal that involves violence.  What kind of violence?  What is the scope of that violence?  What is the scope of the Collectors? What kind of ordinance would be required for said violence to successfully "Fight the Collectors"?  Does such violence constitute building a team or an army?  I understand the need to upgrade the ship, to explore and discover how to do all these things, but not to have a military ground operation for something we don't know of yet.  Ilos was a planet.  The Collector base luckily had some atmosphere for our breather-mask squaddies.
 

And doesn't all this fall within the range of 'suicide mission'? Going into this, the idea is that not everyone will be coming out alive for one reason or another. You say find information on the Collectors. I respond- how? It's a point made that no ship is capable of passing through the Omega IV relay. In addition, most if not all information on the collectors is limited beyond knowing they possess incredible technology and are working with the Reapers. The Normandy is able to investigate the derelict reaper and obtains the ability to pass through the Omega IV relay. Being the best ship available, the need to rescue its crew, and stop whatever plot the collectors are concocting, it does so.

Perhaps not the best available story, but how does this truly differ from not knowing what resistance Shepard will find on Ilos? We know Saren has a massive warship available, a fleet of Geth at his command, and we choose to go in without a 'plan' as you say. Well, if the entire fleet had been waiting there, or even just Sovereign, the Normandy would be dust. If anything, it's even more foolish to think Shepard would attempt the feat alone given he has a definiteive knowledge what they are capable of.

If he gave us the best weapons and ordinance to "deal with it" (aka blow something up), what do we need an army/really good team for?

Clearly they were necessary since the final mission required a ground team. Again, the good team could have been entirely useless. You could have passed through the relay, realized all you needed was a nuke, and come home without using your team. But is the opposite scenario better? It's better to have the team of specialists and not need them, then need them but not have them. Thane had no special role for the final mission, but knowing he is the best it's better to have him than not. Plus, who's to say this incredible unit is not designed to deal with the Reaper threat in ME3?

And what if the Collectors greatest weakness was coffee?  That may sound stupid.  But you know, after that info, I'd really want a barista over an assassin, if that's what it took to "Fight the Collectors."  And Juan Valdez.

Now this is just being foolish. It was a team designed for any possible scenario, with a ship for every possible scenario, with an AI for the same reason. Or would you not agree that circumstances are everything when you plan something out? I feel Cerberus really did take into account any possibilities they could deal with.

In regards to Ashley, I'd say she had more motivation than any character in ME2: she had firsthand knowledge of the Geth, having her entire unit wiped out, and she believes in the mission, enough to curb her xenophobia and work with Shepard and aliens to save the universe.  She also has little comments and opinions about each plot point of the story.  Ditto with Kaidan.  Wrex, here and there, I think.  They at least had things to comment on the main plot.

Well, I could say the same for Jacob/Miranda in that advisory role. And Ashley's knowledge of the Geth was no more than what any Quarian could tell you. I'd say Legion had more of a reason to join your party than Ashley, or Tali. When recruiting Tali, we aren't even really given a reason for why she's so necessary.

Again, I mentioned before, we wanted to stop Saren from finding the conduit.  That does not necessarily mean kill Saren, but if it did, we knew 1) our taget, 2) pretty much how to kill him and what that'd take.

Compare that to "Fight the Collectors."  Whereas Ilos is a planet in a solar system far far away, NO ONE knows what's beyond the Omega-4 relay, the scope of the threat, what we need to stop it, etc.  If we were somehow able to communicate/scan what was going on in there early on (I'm thinking something like a DS9 wormhole communication thing), then we could go "Oh.  Now we've got some idea of what to do."

So it's better that we know Saren has a gigantic flagship and an army of Geth and choose to jump in anyway? Even if killing Saren wasn't the goal, he can still choose to force combat. Stealth systems or not, I'm curious what exactly the plan would have been if Saren had not gone ahead to the conduit with Sovereign.

[JedTed]

Terraneaux wrote...

JedTed wrote...
I also think that the Collector=Prothean revelation is really profound and gives us an insight into why the Reapers harvest organic races.

I don't think so at all.  It doesn't really change much; we're still ****ed if the Reapers win.  And honestly, who was thinking of having the Collectors be Protheans without Shep being able to figure it out?  He/she can read and write Prothean and has one of their databases in his or her brain.  It would be sweet to be able to be like 'There's something familiar about these Collectors...' and then have your revelation moment, and at first Mordin doesn't believe you, but then when you scan a Collector on their ship he agrees.  Instead, staying true to the theme of the game, they take the ability to be a protagonist away from the main character.  

I don't think Shepard can recognize the Collectors as Protheans solely from his vision.  EDI says that the Collectors far from the Protheans so it's reasonable to assume that the Reapers experiments transformed the Protheans into what they are now.

Yes, the beacon that you find on the uncharted planet has vision which clearly shows a Collector but that's a minor plot hole.

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Well, I could say the same for Jacob/Miranda in that advisory role. And Ashley's knowledge of the Geth was no more than what any Quarian could tell you. I'd say Legion had more of a reason to join your party than Ashley, or Tali. When recruiting Tali, we aren't even really given a reason for why she's so necessary.

Well, she's not so necessary for a combat role, but she's an extremely talented engineer who has a lot of experience working on a Normandy-type drive core and systems.  People with that kind of experience would be hard for Cerberus to come by.  

[JediPilot0]

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
....Episode V was not the insta-success you claim it was.
[/quote]

I have NEVER claimed that ESB was instantly successfull. I pointed out that Vader being Luke's father was a huge trilogy-affecting event, wether or not ESB's main Rebellion vs Empire plot was recieved well. I mentioned how the people making the movie knew how earth-shattering that revelation was going to be, which is why they kept it a secret, even from the film-crew and actors.

And ESBs whether or not ESB was an instant success is a complete Red Herring and has nothing to do with ME2s poorly written plot. As I said, the original trilogy was groundbreaking and shook hollywood to it's core. Star Wars changed how movies were made. ME2, being compared to ESB by Bioware, is not groundbreaking in the least. The comparison between ESB and ME2 regarding plot reaction is a false one.

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
No, I simply feel that everyone has become filled with such nostalgia for their party members in ME1 that they don't realize the potential to take it in a new direction.
[/quote]

You don't write trilogies and dump most of the main characters away in the sequel, I'm sorry. Since everyone insists on pointing to trilogies like LOTR and StarWars, guess what? Most of the crew in those movies are exactly the same, plus some new ones. It's obvious this game had to reboot tons of stuff to draw in new players.


[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Is this not a question to possibly be answered later? What could they do with humans?
[/quote]

This only reinforces the fact that ME2 didn't fill us in very much. All it did was present more questions, and have your crew and EDI "speculate." You could skip ME2 and the only thing you'd miss about the Reapers is that the Protheans are the Collectors, which does not change the stakes at all. Everything else, like what purpose the human paste is for, is either going to be skipped over, making it irrelevant, or it will be explained in ME3, in which case presenting it in ME2, and simply everyone going "huh?" was a waste.

Case in point: We don't even know what the hell they were going to do with the human reaper, and so we don't even know what the hell we actually stopped in ME2. The human reaper didn't even exists until 5 minutes before the credits. No discussion about it or anything, just "let's find a way to take it down."

We're on a derelict reaper, talk about it? Explore it? No, just "let's get out of here asap", oh I almost forgot we were here for the IFF. Lickily it's on a table right before the Mass Effect core. Designers and writers almost forgot about that one, luckily they caught it. That wasn't lazy or anything.

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Or maybe the situation has changed? The Reapers had never met anyone capable of killing them before. Humans proved they were in exceptional in a way no other race had ever done.
[/quote]

Maybe.

Surely the Reapers have had casualties before. Derelct Reaper? What about the Protheans completely screwing their plans by tampering with the Keepers?


[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
See, here's the problem 'they weren't used enough'.......... What I gather from this is that you require having a public face at all times to fight against. The Collector storyline was doomed to begin with because there was no clear-cut enmy.
[/quote]

The ME2 squadmates required almost no convincing. For a game that is about recruiting people for a suicide mission, you sure don't discuss the remifications or have to do much to convince them. They pretty much all go "Golly gee, Shepard, you helped me with my current task, I'll scratch your back by DYING for you on a mission that is labeled 'suicide' up front"?

And yeah, the Collectors not having a main face of the enemy has been brought up. I don't think they need to, but I would have thought this crew would need a LITTLE more convincing to join the cause. Hell, Shepard doesn't even bat an eye that he was KIA and brought back to life by the hands of a terrorist. We get like 2 dialogue options.

Good stories are written that give the person experiencing them time to digest what is going on. ME2 rushes along without stopping to breathe.

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Well, if you want to talk about the final suicide mission, what ME1 character was actually relevant on  Ilos? No one was instrumental, they just became gameplay mechanics. Ashley wasn't a more critical choice than Garrus than Tali.
[/quote]

The ME1 squaddies had ALREADY helped us out. The ME2 squaddies were all just sitting around waiting for a SINGLE mission that was given to us at the outset. They had one purpose, the suicide mission, and they all were just used as soldiers.


[quote]Miranda-Brought you back to life. Employed by Cerberus.
[/quote]

Yes, and it's clearly stated that she's there to watch Shepard and send reports to TIM

[quote]
Jacob-Head of security for Lazarus Project.
[/quote]
Why do we need him again? The Lazarus project was bringing me back. It's over. Miranda is monitoring me again. But I'm willing to cede his purpose because he was under orders from TIM.

[quote]
Garrus-Member of original squad
Tali-Member of original squad.
[/quote]

Yeah, both of these understand the Reaper threat. Makes sense to join, because we've worked together already.

[quote]
Thane-Essentially looking for penance and an opportunity to die.
[/quote]

Right. Has nothing to do with the Collectors OR the Reapers. We could have recruited him to go hunting space pirates. We never needed his assassin abilities either. What role did he take that helped me take on the Reapers? He was just used as a generic soldier. Could be replaced by anyone and nothing would change.

What unique abilities does he bring? What does he contribute?


[quote]
Samara-A Justicar, able to relate to Shepard's role as a Spectre. Takes an oath to aid after Shepard finds her daughter's ship.
[/quote]

How does relating to Spectres mean she will want to die for me? If finding the name of her daughter's ship means she'll die for me, then that cop on Illium almost had a Justicar pet, had she been able to solve the crime herself.

Again, she doesn't necessarily care about the Collectors themselves. And it takes NO convincing to get her to  join me. "That...is a noble cause." Gee thanks, but you have no stake in the Collectors abducting humans. I could have asked you for anything. You'd think this would require some discussion about what exactly is required of her.

And why did we need specifically a Justicar? Is there something unique that Samara brings to the team that other biotics don't? We're never told she's the most powerful biotic in existence.

[quote]
Mordin-Scientist, professional interest. Also in exchange for aiding disease situation on Omega.
[/quote]

Well, it's a strange exchange. I'll help you cure a plague, you can DIE for me.

But At least Mordin contributed by creating the counter for the seeker-swarms. He has a clear place and function on the team.

[quote]
Grunt-Lack of identity. Is in stasis until released by Shepard.
[/quote]

Grunt, I will give to you. You made the point about it being originally about Okeer, who had collector knowledge (another clear reason to bring him). But yes, Grunt was a "plan B" for Okeer.

And I actually like Grunt's Krogan pride about fighting tough enemies, now that I think about it. It works at least. He has a personal motive for fighting the collectors, because all Krogans seem to be proud of the enemies they aquire.

[quote]
Legion-For some inexplicable reason, intrigued by Shepard. Agrees with 'Geth' to aid against Collectors, Reapers, and heretics.
[/quote]

Legion was also a plan B. He wasn't a dossier, so I can understand bringing him even though we may not have needed someone/thing like him in the first place. He doesn't serve a clear function, but having a Geth on our side would be useful.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 15 mars 2010 - 10:14 .

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


Back to the backgrounds, they're lame period. I realized it the minute I saw the opening screen with Udina and Anderson talking. I'd chosen Earth-born and ruthless. 'Two lines of dialogue on why Earth-born is the best type of soldier followed by two lines of dialogue on why ruthless is the best type of soldier'. And it's the same with any 2 combinations. That is not gaming depth; that's laziness.

So you're saying they're only lame because they weren't explored sufficiently?  Why, that's exactly my opinion.  We got some sidequests in the first game, but I'd like to see more in ME3 - optimally we'd see Earth, Mindoir, and some alliance cruiser as locations in ME3, with additional content and context if your character is an Earthborn, Colonist, or Spacer, respectively.  They could do something similar with Elysium, Torfan, and Akuze.  

[Mallissin]

Did *this thread* accomplish ANYTHING plot wise?

[Yeled]

Mallissin wrote...

Did *this thread* accomplish ANYTHING plot wise?

I'm not sure advancing plot or developing characters was the stated goal of the thread.

[JMA22TB]

Terraneaux wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Well, I could say the same for Jacob/Miranda in that advisory role. And Ashley's knowledge of the Geth was no more than what any Quarian could tell you. I'd say Legion had more of a reason to join your party than Ashley, or Tali. When recruiting Tali, we aren't even really given a reason for why she's so necessary.

Well, she's not so necessary for a combat role, but she's an extremely talented engineer who has a lot of experience working on a Normandy-type drive core and systems.  People with that kind of experience would be hard for Cerberus to come by.  

In ME, you can actually refuse her joining, which Udina rebukes, stating that she survived a run-in with the geth, so she'll do.

Beneath the surface, though, it would seem that the quarians are a very important race for the ME trilogy; they're the only race, besides maybe the krogan, you learn the whole nine yards about in terms of culture, government, etc. You don't ever really learn, at least outside of the codex, about the asari, turians, or even humanity(!), as much as you do the quarians. Ascension establishes an interest of TIM in the quarians as well, wanting to study their technology that has kept them alive for so long while just living on starships.

Modifié par JMA22TB, 15 mars 2010 - 09:59 .

[JediPilot0]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Perhaps not the best available story, but how does this truly differ
from not knowing what resistance Shepard will find on Ilos? We know
Saren has a massive warship available, a fleet of Geth at his command,
and we choose to go in without a 'plan' as you say

I don't really have a point to make, but remember that the Collectors were the only ones able to actually detect the Normandy. We operated in Geth space a few times in ME2 with no problems.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

IoCaster wrote...
I can understand including Tali and Garrus to satisfy the demands of the fans and as a simple gesture of good will by BioWare. The rest of the squad are a disparate group of individuals that were included in the game because the devs thought they were cool characters. There is nothing about them that specifically defines them as elite Spec Ops type operatives.

Cool characters are cool, but how the heck are they a necessary part of the main story plot to defeat the Reapers when you can literally kill them off? All you need to do is keep Garrus and Tali, or any other duo, alive at the end of the game for your own Shep to survive. So the end result is that the 'elite' squad you recruited to help you save the galaxy is totally unnecessary for the series to continue in ME3. Any claim that the game serves the purpose of assembling this 'elite' squad to help defeat the Reapers in ME3 is dubious at best and a real stretch.

You're looking at this the wrong way. This isn't a team designed strictly with military intent in mind, where characters like Garrus would be top notch. This is a team capable of handling any type of situation possible, of people who are the best in their respective fields, though not necessarily in a firefight. Plus, I can make my Shepard a tech specialist. I wouldn't exactly call that being the height of military prowess.

Being killable also doesn't make a character valueless. Most people play through RPGs multiple times. Before ME2, I did a final run through of the original game to make certain all the decisions I wanted (Wrex and Ashley surviving, etc) would occur. I view ME2 much the same way. Before ME3, most people will do a final play through, choosing what characters they want to live or die to impact the story in a certain fashion.

[smudboy]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Then I guess Empire Strikes Back is doomed on its own, as others have pointed out. It wasn't exactly the phenomenon that it is now. What made the 'No, I am your father' line so powerful was the significance it played in the third one. The overall plot of the original trilogy was about the Rebels versus the Empire. Hoth aside, nothing significant at all happens in this capacity. As a stand alone, Empire Strikes Back utterly fails.

But I thought we were discussing the significance of that one minor plot detail, how Reapers are made, which many would disagree with you on it being 'hilarious'. It adds a stroke of irony to the Reapers and also says something about their own composition. This point was not about ME2 as a whole and about the role a small detail can have. I think it's pretty clear certain things were set up for ME3.

You can judge ME2 to be a failure of plot, if you so choose. It wasn't the best, I agree. But then ME1 failed in developing particulary exciting characters. I did not see another HK-47, or Alistair, or Black Whirlwind anywhere in the game. They just felt like they were attached to the main plot in a lackluster manner.

The problem I have with your "I think it's pretty clear certain things were set up for ME3" is I also think it was pretty clear certain things were set up for ME2.  But guess what happened?

NOTHING

A story is told by the quality of the writing and the progression of the plot.  I agree, character development is helpful toward that.  But what is key is plot development.  ME1 had decent character development and great plot development.  ME2 had NONE OF THAT.

[JediPilot0]

smudboy wrote...

The problem I have with your "I think it's pretty clear certain things were set up for ME3" is I also think it was pretty clear certain things were set up for ME2.  But guess what happened?

NOTHING

Win.  : D

EDIT - That's something wrong. Everything addressed in ME2 came out of nowhere and wasn't set up in ME1. Everything set up in ME1 was ignored by killing shepard and rebooting everything for a new audience.

smudboy wrote...
ME1 had decent character development and great plot development.  ME2 had NONE OF THAT.

Well, if you mean character development relevant to the story. I actually like ME2's charcters quite a bit, but the problem was ME2 seemed to serve as just a huge demonstration of Bioware's ability to create characters.

Bioware: Look at all these charcters we can create! Look at all their problems and help them out! Get to know them!

Me: That's nice but what about the Reapers?

Modifié par JediPilot0, 15 mars 2010 - 10:26 .

[Sigma Tauri]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
You're looking at this the wrong way. This isn't a team designed strictly with military intent in mind, where characters like Garrus would be top notch. This is a team capable of handling any type of situation possible, of people who are the best in their respective fields, though not necessarily in a firefight. Plus, I can make my Shepard a tech specialist. I wouldn't exactly call that being the height of military prowess.

I'm convinced that was the intent of building a team of 12, but unfortunately the Collector base didn't have enough opportunities to utilize whatever skills your team built. I mean I can forgive recruiting redundant allies, but still Bioware could've convinced a lot more people if there were moments that made each member of your team critically important.

[tertium organum]

JediPilot0 wrote...


Me: That's nice but what about the Reapers?

This really is the essence of it all. I get more worried about ME3 the more I read these ridiculous arguments explaining everything away as setup or filling in points that were not in the game - with fans like this, why improve the story?

[Randy1012]

Terraneaux wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Well, I could say the same for Jacob/Miranda in that advisory role. And Ashley's knowledge of the Geth was no more than what any Quarian could tell you. I'd say Legion had more of a reason to join your party than Ashley, or Tali. When recruiting Tali, we aren't even really given a reason for why she's so necessary.

Well, she's not so necessary for a combat role, but she's an extremely talented engineer who has a lot of experience working on a Normandy-type drive core and systems.  People with that kind of experience would be hard for Cerberus to come by.

You know who else is an extremely skilled engineer who has a lot of experience working on a Normandy-type drive core and systems? Adams, the SR1's actual Chief Engineer, who probably has far more engineering experience and knowledge than a young quarian who's just barely finished her Pilgrimage.

Adams also would have had a strong motivation to join Cerberus and take the fight to the Collectors: they killed his good friend, Pressly. He's also human, and I think Cerberus would rather trust their massive investment to a human engineer with all the required experience and motivation over a quarian.

[IoCaster]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You're looking at this the wrong way. This isn't a team designed strictly with military intent in mind, where characters like Garrus would be top notch. This is a team capable of handling any type of situation possible, of people who are the best in their respective fields, though not necessarily in a firefight. Plus, I can make my Shepard a tech specialist. I wouldn't exactly call that being the height of military prowess.

Being killable also doesn't make a character valueless. Most people play through RPGs multiple times. Before ME2, I did a final run through of the original game to make certain all the decisions I wanted (Wrex and Ashley surviving, etc) would occur. I view ME2 much the same way. Before ME3, most people will do a final play through, choosing what characters they want to live or die to impact the story in a certain fashion.

Thanks anyway, but I'm looking at it logically. The military has competent people in every field and they don't require a bunch of hand holding or a shoulder to cry on before the mission. It's a video game and therefore any adherence to reality is disposable. That doesn't mean that I won't poke holes in it. I'm also very skeptical that these are the very best that the galaxy has to offer in their respective fields. The writers didn't do a very good job of convincing me of that because the characters themselves didn't act the part. 

What you do in your particular game has no bearing on the number of contingencies that the devs have to account for. The vast majority of the squad members in ME2 can be killed off. How does anyone figure that they will play a crucial role in ME3? Cameo roles and an overflowing email inbox are certainly possible, but an important plot related role is extremely questionable. 

[Akeashar]

ME2 managed to fill in one of the huge WTF plot points in ME1 for me. Which was the Reapers harvests. We were told that once Galactic Civilization reaches a certain tipping point, that they come through and harvest the resources of the organic races. It always bothered me exactly what they were after. They'd likely no have an interest in technology, the mineral resources seemed unlikely considering they'd just wander into Dark Space once they were done. The revelation that they were actually after sufficiently involved organics themselves from some kind of reproductive process filled in that particular query nicely. That they'd use the remaining Protheans as a form of measuring and testing the genetic potential of the races to find ones that would be suitable for their needs (after the failure of the Protheans) makes sense, and gives more of a reason for when Sovereign would know it would be time to begin their plans for returning for their Harvest. The completion of Shepard's vision from the beacon, tying the Protheans and Collectors together was a nice touch as well.

So, we have filling in the blanks in the past by ME2 *check*

As for moving forward? The Normandy is shown as becoming a craft that is capable of taking out a Prothean ship. The technology devised, and put into practice, in that battle, could be seen as at least one craft that would have a better fighting chance against the Reapers. And if it could be done with the Normandy, chances are it could be done with other craft.

So new weapons against the Reapers *check*

The continued movement of gathering of potential allies against the Reapers (specifically the Quarian and Geth, with the repeated assertation of the Rachni assisting and having begun to amass their army) is also a sign of the gathering and preparation *moving forwards*

The only blatant, and frustrating, inaction is the apparent inaction of the Council, which is back to its ME1 rut. However, there are other aspects of the plot where movement has occurred.

[Knoll Argonar]

IoCaster wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You're looking at this the wrong way. This isn't a team designed strictly with military intent in mind, where characters like Garrus would be top notch. This is a team capable of handling any type of situation possible, of people who are the best in their respective fields, though not necessarily in a firefight. Plus, I can make my Shepard a tech specialist. I wouldn't exactly call that being the height of military prowess.

Being killable also doesn't make a character valueless. Most people play through RPGs multiple times. Before ME2, I did a final run through of the original game to make certain all the decisions I wanted (Wrex and Ashley surviving, etc) would occur. I view ME2 much the same way. Before ME3, most people will do a final play through, choosing what characters they want to live or die to impact the story in a certain fashion.

Thanks anyway, but I'm looking at it logically. The military has competent people in every field and they don't require a bunch of hand holding or a shoulder to cry on before the mission. It's a video game and therefore any adherence to reality is disposable. That doesn't mean that I won't poke holes in it. I'm also very skeptical that these are the very best that the galaxy has to offer in their respective fields. The writers didn't do a very good job of convincing me of that because the characters themselves didn't act the part. 

What you do in your particular game has no bearing on the number of contingencies that the devs have to account for. The vast majority of the squad members in ME2 can be killed off. How does anyone figure that they will play a crucial role in ME3? Cameo roles and an overflowing email inbox are certainly possible, but an important plot related role is extremely questionable. 

Not at all, but there're some other Topics that treat that issue, so there's no need to add more.

[JediPilot0]

tertium organum wrote...
This really is the essence of it all. I get more worried about ME3 the more I read these ridiculous arguments explaining everything away as setup or filling in points that were not in the game - with fans like this, why improve the story?

I'm dreading ME3.

Bioware pushed ME2 out in less time than ME1, and they've said they want to push ME3 out even sooner.

I don't see how they can make a huge epic ending to this trilogy. They have to tie every loose end up. They have to deal with the Reapers once and for all. They have to address many species (apparently) allying with Shepard and going to war.

Somehow we have to have a squad even though EVERYONE in ME2 can die, meaning they will all be secondary characers OR will ahve no character development.

The only way I can see the Reaper plot getting its spotlight is if there are no side missions whatsoever and like 25 missions dealing ONLY with the Reapers (instead of like 20 character recruitement/sidequests and 5 or so main plot missions)

I want Bioware to take their time with ME3. I want a huge 3 disc or more conclusion. I don't want to go recruiting again. Do it right, Bioware. Don't screw it up because of EA.

[phatpat63]

Cosmicinator wrote...

In regard to the title:

Short answer, No.

Long answer, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Agreed

[Knoll Argonar]

JediPilot0 wrote...

tertium organum wrote...
This really is the essence of it all. I get more worried about ME3 the more I read these ridiculous arguments explaining everything away as setup or filling in points that were not in the game - with fans like this, why improve the story?

I'm dreading ME3.

Bioware pushed ME2 out in less time than ME1, and they've said they want to push ME3 out even sooner.

I don't see how they can make a huge epic ending to this trilogy. They have to tie every loose end up. They have to deal with the Reapers once and for all. They have to address many species (apparently) allying with Shepard and going to war.

Somehow we have to have a squad even though EVERYONE in ME2 can die, meaning they will all be secondary characers OR will ahve no character development.

The only way I can see the Reaper plot getting its spotlight is if there are no side missions whatsoever and like 25 missions dealing ONLY with the Reapers (instead of like 20 character recruitement/sidequests and 5 or so main plot missions)

I want Bioware to take their time with ME3. I want a huge 3 disc or more conclusion. I don't want to go recruiting again. Do it right, Bioware. Don't screw it up because of EA.

Hey, my 2 cents: in videogame industry, what takes more time in development is the Engine that makes everything run smoothly. So, the technical part.

They built ME1 from scratch, so there was a hell of a lot to create. They built ME2 based on ME1's engine. And they said there's no need to push the graphic line further, so creating a hell of a game in 2 years with an already created engine is not bad news.