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[IoCaster]

Knoll Argonar wrote...




Not at all, but there're some other Topics that treat that issue, so there's no need to add more.

Excuse me? Are you moderating this discussion? If you aren't then you'd be well advised to direct your comment to someone that cares about your opinion. 

[JediPilot0]

Akeashar wrote...
So, we have filling in the blanks in the past by ME2 *check*

That is only a means to what end? What purpose do the Reapers need to reproduce for? We didn't really answer anything. We answered how but not why. We still don't know what the Reapers want, or who made them or anything. Honestly, does using organic paste for reproduction change the stakes?

So new weapons against the Reapers *check*

There's no way to say for sure if these same weapons will be effective against the Reapers themselves. That's a problem with all the "answers" ME2 provides: It's never clear or said for certain. Everyone "speculates" at every turn, and we're supposed to think they are correct every single time?

The continued movement of gathering of potential allies against the Reapers (specifically the Quarian and Geth, with the repeated assertation of the Rachni assisting and having begun to amass their army) is also a sign of the gathering and preparation *moving forwards*

Those are all sidequests. If they were the main plot and direction the series is going, why are they not the MAIN PLOT? Bioware just wasn't clear about their intentions in this game, imo.

Is EDI's analysis of everything Collector and Reaper related inteded to be fact now?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

JediPilot0 wrote...
I have NEVER claimed that ESB was instantly successfull. I pointed out that Vader being Luke's father was a huge trilogy-affecting event, wether or not ESB's main Rebellion vs Empire plot was recieved well. I mentioned how the people making the movie knew how earth-shattering that revelation was going to be, which is why they kept it a secret, even from the film-crew and actors.

And ESBs whether or not ESB was an instant success is a complete Red Herring and has nothing to do with ME2s poorly written plot. As I said, the original trilogy was groundbreaking and shook hollywood to it's core. Star Wars changed how movies were made. ME2, being compared to ESB by Bioware, is not groundbreaking in the least. The comparison between ESB and ME2 regarding plot reaction is a false one.

Yes, and I'm saying that Episode V's revelation at the time, though mind-blowing, did not develop the plot in a specific direction, which seems to be everyone's issue with ME2. 'I am your father' was a personal revelation to one particular character that later proved to be instrumental in how things played out.

This is my exact point about why people are premature in downplaying ME2. Episode V did not become the huge success it was until much later, after the release of Episode VI and when everyone was able to look at it and understand its role in the scheme of things. I'm simply postponing judgement on ME2 until it's actually seen what relevance it has to the third game. Everyone now is saying 'the plot is bogus'. Well, if information such as how reapers are made, proves instrumental and ME3 is a major success because of it, suddenly ME2 was not a waste of time.

You don't write trilogies and dump most of the main characters away in the sequel, I'm sorry. Since everyone insists on pointing to trilogies like LOTR and StarWars, guess what? Most of the crew in those movies are exactly the same, plus some new ones. It's obvious this game had to reboot tons of stuff to draw in new players.

Hmmm, 'most of the characters'. We have Ashley/Kaidan (as the other is killed off), Garrus, Tali, Liara, and Wrex. Garrus and Tali are both incorporated fully into the sequel, so they're checked. Wrex may or may not be dead depending on how things play out. Even if alive, we see that his role has changed immensely since the first game, but he's not exactly stripped. Liara I'm honestly iffy on. And Ashley/Kaidan I admit we got ****ed on.

Within the context of Shepard dying, I am fully able to understand why certain characters are not going to play the roles they used to. Dragon Age Origins is shafting some of my favorite characters in the expansion and I get....Oghren. Wonderful. That doesn't necessarily mean I won't bond with new ones.

This only reinforces the fact that ME2 didn't fill us in very much. All it did was present more questions, and have your crew and EDI "speculate." You could skip ME2 and the only thing you'd miss about the Reapers is that the Protheans are the Collectors, which does not change the stakes at all. Everything else, like what purpose the human paste is for, is either going to be skipped over, making it irrelevant, or it will be explained in ME3, in which case presenting it in ME2, and simply everyone going "huh?" was a waste.

Case in point: We don't even know what the hell they were going to do with the human reaper, and so we don't even know what the hell we actually stopped in ME2. The human reaper didn't even exists until 5 minutes before the credits. No discussion about it or anything, just "let's find a way to take it down."

We're on a derelict reaper, talk about it? Explore it? No, just "let's get out of here asap", oh I almost forgot we were here for the IFF. Lickily it's on a table right before the Mass Effect core. Designers and writers almost forgot about that one, luckily they caught it. That wasn't lazy or anything.

We don't know what they were going to do? Were we playing the same game? I was under the impression that reapers harvest all life. We stopped Harbinger from getting his hands on another addition to his fleet and learned how a reaper is constructed. How was Vigil any better? Were we given much time to reflect then? Immediately after the convo with him, you're back to racing through the relay.

The entire story revolved around figuring out what the Collectors/reapers wanted with humans. We also obtained a treasure trove of data and possibly an entire facility that can be used to combat them for ME3.

Maybe.

Surely the Reapers have had casualties before. Derelct Reaper? What about the Protheans completely screwing their plans by tampering with the Keepers?

I don't recall. Did they explain how exactly the reaper was destroyed, or even if done by the protheans? If it was them, this just illustrates the fact that the reapers prefer using the 'best' of organic species in constructing their own kind. Some say the purpose of life is to survive and thrive. We wonder why exactly the Reapers harvest organics. Could it simply be to thrive in their very own way?

The ME2 squadmates required almost no convincing. For a game that is about recruiting people for a suicide mission, you sure don't discuss the remifications or have to do much to convince them. They pretty much all go "Golly gee, Shepard, you helped me with my current task, I'll scratch your back by DYING for you on a mission that is labeled 'suicide' up front"?

And yeah, the Collectors not having a main face of the enemy has been brought up. I don't think they need to, but I would have thought this crew would need a LITTLE more convincing to join the cause. Hell, Shepard doesn't even bat an eye that he was KIA and brought back to life by the hands of a terrorist. We get like 2 dialogue options.

This is inconsistent now. You're saying the Collectors didn't need a public face. Check. Wasn't the issue earlier how your party members tied into the main plot? Without a public face, it's going to be difficult if impossible to give companions a reason to join the party in the way you're suggesting if it's fine for the Collectors to remain anonymous. They have no motivation as pertains to the Collectors. But I agree, in some cases recruitment could have been handled better, as Mordin.

The ME1 squaddies had ALREADY helped us out. The ME2 squaddies were all just sitting around waiting for a SINGLE mission that was given to us at the outset. They had one purpose, the suicide mission, and they all were just used as soldiers.

Well, no, they were not just 'sitting around' as you say. If you notice, they're all doing their own business when you go to recruit them, especially in the cases of Thane and Samara. Again, they are specialists they were not just chilling out in the local bar or C-sec office, which ironically is the style in which both Garrus and Wrex are recruited in ME1. *That* is the definition of waiting around.

The complaint seems to be that ME2 was too combat oriented. But wait, you're recruiting a team of dangerous (although not necessarily combat) specialists. So shouldn't they be off doing what they do best~in the midst of danger? Thane-assassinating people. Samara-bringing her own sense of justice to the world. They were not all just sitting around waiting for you; they were busy doing their own thing.

Thane-Essentially looking for penance and an opportunity to die.

Right. Has nothing to do with the Collectors OR the Reapers. We could have recruited him to go hunting space pirates. We never needed his assassin abilities either. What role did he take that helped me take on the Reapers? He was just used as a generic soldier. Could be replaced by anyone and nothing would change.

What unique abilities does he bring? What does he contribute? 

 
What unique ability does Tali bring in the first game? As has been mentioned, Udina mentions that she's 'survived an encounter with the Geth'. Does she develop any anti-Geth tech for me? No. Does she reveal combat upgrades? No. She sat on my ship twiddling her thumbs.

Thane would not have agreed to go with you if it were anything short of spectacular. He is an honorable warrior/assassin, looking for a fitting end-which I chose to gave him in my run through. Think of him in terms of the Spartan wish for a 'beautiful death' as in 300. He wanted to go out with a bang. Not every character needed to be attached to the main plot in some clear cut fashion- Jacob, Miranda, Legion, Tali/Garrus, all filled that role.

How does relating to Spectres mean she will want to die for me? If finding the name of her daughter's ship means she'll die for me, then that cop on Illium almost had a Justicar pet, had she been able to solve the crime herself.

Again, she doesn't necessarily care about the Collectors themselves. And it takes NO convincing to get her to  join me. "That...is a noble cause." Gee thanks, but you have no stake in the Collectors abducting humans. I could have asked you for anything. You'd think this would require some discussion about what exactly is required of her.

And why did we need specifically a Justicar? Is there something unique that Samara brings to the team that other biotics don't? We're never told she's the most powerful biotic in existence.

Unlike Thane, Samara is not *looking* to die. Justicar bring their own twisted sense of justice to the world and believe it or not love 'noble' causes. Her ability to relate to Shepard's role as a Spectre, which are similar to Justicars if I remember the codex correctly, made her view the cause as a just one. That you aid her dealing with Morinth is just icing on the cake and is a practical matter.

Mordin-Scientist, professional interest. Also in exchange for aiding disease situation on Omega.

Well, it's a strange exchange. I'll help you cure a plague, you can DIE for me.

But At least Mordin contributed by creating the counter for the seeker-swarms. He has a clear place and function on the team.

It's strange. Having read your comment, I honestly feel like Mordin had probably the weakest recruitment mission. I don't really see the motivation in why he would attempt a suicide mission because you aided him slightly. I'll have to play through that again and see if Shepard mentions anything about the Collectors.

[Bwaksson]

I think ME2 accomplished alot.
You got to know that the major opposition during ME1 ,the geth IMO, was reaper-controlled.
It is hinted that the Rachni were too during the Rachni wars.
You get to know that the Protheans weren't completely annihilated. ME1 the prothans were just neatly exterminated but in ME2 they add a new level on the reapers (and it's a god OMG!? moment), making them not just dangerous. But evil. Which seems to be a big point ME2 tries to make.
You get to see direct results of you reducing a reaper to space junk AND you learn that you are not the first who managed it. It makes the reapers more intimidating IMO. It's like 'you beat one. Great. That didn't help the first fifty-twelve times someone did it though'.
And even though there are more theories than people on it, you get to "know" why the reapers bother at all. It prooved my theory wrong. They weren't in it just for the XP. They've got an agenda and presumably you get it explained in ME3.

Basically, ME2 tells us that ME1 was more or less luck and that ME3 likely contains alot more Reapers.
'It wonders if the Shepard considers itself fortunate'.
It also gives more depth to the reapers themselves. They aren't just evil machines trying to whipe out everything, because that story has been done ALOT. The thought that they do it because they wan't to get something out of us has only been done a couple of times.

Comparing it to the first Star Wars Trilogy isn't all that bad. In ANH I get the feeling that the Empire is just a mass of poorly organised guys in white plastic inhabiting Death stars. ESB shows me that they are badass guys in White plastic and makes RotJ much more tense. Atleast when I didn't know the movie by heart.

Character development was not as good in ME2 IMO, but in ME1 you only really had three people to get to know properly. The same effort spread over 12 is obviously lower. Peronally I like the level it is in ME2. My hope is that ME3 won't contain to much new personalities but will rather use what they've established in ME2

[JediPilot0]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Hey, my 2 cents: in videogame industry, what takes more time in development is the Engine that makes everything run smoothly. So, the technical part.

They built ME1 from scratch, so there was a hell of a lot to create. They built ME2 based on ME1's engine. And they said there's no need to push the graphic line further, so creating a hell of a game in 2 years with an already created engine is not bad news.

This is true. I just get worried because even though the engine was done for ME2, they put everything plot related off until the 3rd (which is how I feel, and what I've been arguing). So my worries are a combination of ME2's plot and the shorter timeframe for release.

I think they only spent about 3 or 4 months getting the combat completely overhauled for ME2, so all that other time must have went into designing the game itself, not necessarily the technology.

But this is all guesswork on my part.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 15 mars 2010 - 11:10 .

[JMA22TB]

smudboy wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Then I guess Empire Strikes Back is doomed on its own, as others have pointed out. It wasn't exactly the phenomenon that it is now. What made the 'No, I am your father' line so powerful was the significance it played in the third one. The overall plot of the original trilogy was about the Rebels versus the Empire. Hoth aside, nothing significant at all happens in this capacity. As a stand alone, Empire Strikes Back utterly fails.

But I thought we were discussing the significance of that one minor plot detail, how Reapers are made, which many would disagree with you on it being 'hilarious'. It adds a stroke of irony to the Reapers and also says something about their own composition. This point was not about ME2 as a whole and about the role a small detail can have. I think it's pretty clear certain things were set up for ME3.

You can judge ME2 to be a failure of plot, if you so choose. It wasn't the best, I agree. But then ME1 failed in developing particulary exciting characters. I did not see another HK-47, or Alistair, or Black Whirlwind anywhere in the game. They just felt like they were attached to the main plot in a lackluster manner.

The problem I have with your "I think it's pretty clear certain things were set up for ME3" is I also think it was pretty clear certain things were set up for ME2.  But guess what happened?

NOTHING

A story is told by the quality of the writing and the progression of the plot.  I agree, character development is helpful toward that.  But what is key is plot development.  ME1 had decent character development and great plot development.  ME2 had NONE OF THAT.

Yup

You're right nothing happened at all in ME2. It was a huge waste of time because all Shepard did was wake up, rip ass, and go back to sleep. There was no plot, the characters were pointless, and there was no reason to even put the CD in the drive.

That's the kind of statement that derails any good point you make.

You obviously can't figure out that you learn more about the Reapers than you did in the first game. Is it conclusive 'we're gonna wup their ass' kind of magic bullet? No, and the game would be a disgrace if that's how it turned out.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The Reapers are operating at a distance. They do not handle the dirty work themselves, because they use mind control and agents to do the work for them, so that when they do finally step in, they don't lose any or very few of their ranks and leave no evidence they even exist. Is that spelled out to you by way of a Prezi? No. You actually have to think to figure that out.

You constantly demand the events of the game to be completely spelled out to you when you're dealing with established unknowns. It is established from the beginning that the Reapers are, by and large, a huge threat that no one knows anything about. The Geth in ME? They operate behind cover, don't let anyone come in to study or communicate with them and not even the quarians know much about them anymore and they created them. The Collectors? Once again, there is a precedent that no one knows anything about them.

How do you plan for that? You don't. Would taking nukes be beneficial to a fight? Sure. But TIM also sets a strong precedent that he wants to use any lead he can find, regardless of the cost. This is established in Ascension, in the Mission complete logs for most of the missions in the game, from political scenarios to technology to military operations. If you nuke the base to hell, you can't use it and that's not on TIM's agenda. When or if you overload the base, you royally ****** him off so why would he give you that option before even having a chance to find out what's out there? He was willing to sacrifice you and your entire team for any technology that the Collectors have, he sent you into a trap once already so why would he care if you died to obtain an edge?

The plot was advanced because now we know what the Reapers are. You stopped their most well-protected agent, and now, if their advancing toward the Milky Way is any indication, have forced their hand. You have an entire squad of loyal fighters at your side, a small-scale Reaper with EDI unshackled, and, maybe most importantly, a mountain of recorded data collected throughout the story that proves what the Collectors are, how they came to be, and the Reapers' involvement in their rewriting. Proof that the Reapers exist and were orchestrating the colony attacks. Is that spelled out at the end of the story? No. But EDI is an AI and has stored data dating all the way back to when the first Normandy was blown up. It's logical to assume correctly that she has proof the Reapers exist. That lets you work with the Council in the future and combine their resources to the coming battle. Not to mention, if you keep the base, the biggest compilation of practical Reaper technology you've encountered at any point in the damn story. Not a taunting conversation with one that only you ever saw, or some fizzed out VI terminal that doesn't work anymore. Tangible, working Reaper technology.

Is this put in a Power Point presentation at the end of the game that neatly prints it to you? No. You actually have to put your displeasure with the lack of background stories, minor comments by squadmates regarding the status of the mission (which Jacob actually performs for you if you cared to look, ask him about the mission progress), and whiny arguments with Cerberus that would only delay the inevitable of working with them anyway, aside to see the point that ME2 moved the story forward by combining learning more about your archenemy and taking down their nastiest, most difficult to thwart agent at the same time, while equipping yourself with a bad ass ship, crew, soon to be a tank to conduct seige operations, and the hinted and very probable notion that future content that BioWare has repeatedly said will be released throughout the year to expand on the story.

Modifié par JMA22TB, 15 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[Knoll Argonar]

IoCaster wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Not at all, but there're some other Topics that treat that issue, so there's no need to add more.

Excuse me? Are you moderating this discussion? If you aren't then you'd be well advised to direct your comment to someone that cares about your opinion. 

No, but this topic is argued better in somewhere else in this forums, so it would be wise to go there and see "what people think about characters playing a role in ME3".

But anyway, if your intention is to just whine about the game, then ignore this post

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Thanks anyway, but I'm looking at it logically. The military has competent people in every field and they don't require a bunch of hand holding or a shoulder to cry on before the mission. It's a video game and therefore any adherence to reality is disposable. That doesn't mean that I won't poke holes in it. I'm also very skeptical that these are the very best that the galaxy has to offer in their respective fields. The writers didn't do a very good job of convincing me of that because the characters themselves didn't act the part. 

What you do in your particular game has no bearing on the number of contingencies that the devs have to account for. The vast majority of the squad members in ME2 can be killed off. How does anyone figure that they will play a crucial role in ME3? Cameo roles and an overflowing email inbox are certainly possible, but an important plot related role is extremely questionable. 

Awww, I'm sorry. If we can only pay attention to things that are logical, I'll stop looking at your posts. =)

Now, let's get onto the business at hand. This 'millitary is competent' deal of yours.

1) This isn't the military anymore buddy. Cerberus has branched out into many other fields.

2) It's been stated many times that the Alliance is only now discovering its potential in biotics. Kaidan, as an l2, is an example of the risk human biotics possess. Samara is an asari and a justicar, a species noted for being exceptional within the field of biotics. Tali is a Quarian, a species noted for *living* inside spaceships and are required to display competency in all manner of electronics. Garrus is a turian, a species that lives for warfare and is very reminiscent of Rome. Mordin is a salarian, a species noted for producing brilliant scientists which five minutes with him should demonstrate all you need. Grunt is a krogan, a species designed to produce brutally effective warriors and he is engineered to be the best of them.

If you are incapable of reading your codex, I am not going to spare your stupidity.

And let's move onto your final paragraph (this might be excess reading for you, I know). They can easily do with companions in ME3 what they did with ME2. In the case of Wrex, if he lives, make him a prominent story character. If he dies, replace him with any idiot with a less prominent role.

How will this work with companions? Well, if Mordin lives through ME2, he can be your party member in ME3. If he does not, then you make do with whose left. If they design the combat system the way they did with ME2, I will have no issue rolling out with any two party members because unlike ME1, even if that's all I have because they had great mechanics and useful abilities. If my party is at most me, Ashley, and Garrus, there will be no problem.

[IoCaster]

Knoll Argonar wrote...


But anyway, if your intention is to just whine about the game, then ignore this post

Listen you condescending weasel. I've read every post in this thread and you've added nothing of significance to the discussion. It seems likely that English is not your native language so I'm not inclined to judge you harshly, but you can take your backseat modding and ****** off.

[Xaijin]

Mallissin wrote...

Did *this thread* accomplish ANYTHING plot wise?

No. It was lost the second someone started analogizing to another product.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

This is true. I just get worried because even though the engine was done for ME2, they put everything plot related off until the 3rd (which is how I feel, and what I've been arguing). So my worries are a combination of ME2's plot and the shorter timeframe for release.

I think they only spent about 3 or 4 months getting the combat completely overhauled for ME2, so all that other time must have went into designing the game itself, not necessarily the technology.

But this is all guesswork on my part.

If Bioware ****s up ME3, which is always a possibility, I will be with you guys and calling for blood. If ME3 is a success and heavily references ME2, I will love both. If ME3 is a success but takes a separate direction, I will say ME2 sucked. And if ME3 blows, I will say this is a repeat of the Matrix/Pirates of the Caribbean/many a movie 'trilogy'.

[smudboy]

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
2) See, I thought otherwise. Perhaps they have their own motives, but Cerberus *did* just bring you back from the dead. That at least would necessitate hearing them out.
3) The Illusive Man does indicate several problems with this. Commander Shepard killed a Reaper. Collectors begin exclusively harvesting humans in the tens of thousands in the Terminus Systems. TIM indicates a clear connection between the two. I would say the more immediate threat of the Collectors, who had just gone about blowing Shepard to hell I might add, would be a little higher on the priority list than machines who are just emerging from dark space. The Council is being stupid, yes, but that's also standard politics for you even in the face of genocide. There was not enough material evidence, even from the Reaper corpse, to force them to see reason. So you went about it your own way with Cerberus.
4) This is 100% accurate.
[/quote]

2) Yes.  TIM said his hello.  Now it's time to reign holy terror on his terrorist ass for killing the humans he's supposed to be protecting.  Instead you're railroaded into doing whatever he says, because.  Whether P or R, Shepard has CERBERUS issues that MUST BE ANSWERED.

Oh wait.  This is ME2.  **** ME1.

[quote]
I'm sorry but exploring world after world of generic content does not give a better scope of the universe. It indicates laziness on the part of the developers. ME was entirely a main quest experience; I don't even consider it as having side quests.

Back to the backgrounds, they're lame period. I realized it the minute I saw the opening screen with Udina and Anderson talking. I'd chosen Earth-born and ruthless. 'Two lines of dialogue on why Earth-born is the best type of soldier followed by two lines of dialogue on why ruthless is the best type of soldier'. And it's the same with any 2 combinations. That is not gaming depth; that's laziness.
[/quote]
I'm not saying it's a fantastic character development either.  I'm saying it's at least there.  If you're ****ing that there's a lazy attempt at it in ME1, they completely removed it in ME2.
[quote]
This I can agree with, but it's still simply errors that each game possessed. Second game had less story. First game had pretty unbelievable character interaction. I'm talking to Garrus for five minutes....and he stays in the same exact position all that time? That does not add to the emotional depth factor. Let's hope ME3 ties both of them together in a better fashion.
[/quote]
First game had good character interaction, and what they said had value, compared to the conversations in ME2.  "Tell me more about Justicars..." Obviously not as large a quantity as 2, but I don't recall any other game having high-res lip-synched high-res talking heads in a sci-fi world.  The lack of character animations argument is completely moot in both games.  Thane and Jack are the only ones that are bloody sitting down.
[quote]
Weren't you just describing on how the Mako and backgrounds were 'at least something'? Well, this is yet another instance of that. My point is that we do see issues spring up because Shepard agrees to work with Cerberus. In fact, everyone seems to have an issue with it to the point that Miranda clearly could not have fulfilled that function herself in recruiting a team of specialistis. I'd say everyone, from Ashley to Jack to Anderson, questioning you as a human being fits the definition of 'conflict' pretty well. To top it all off, at the end of the game you can further define your relationship with Cerberus if you choose to blow up the facility. I chose not to, 'everyone' seems bothered by this.
[/quote]
Yes.

Sure she could have.  The SR2 had no problems going anywhere it wanted.  There was no reason to have Shepard.

My argument was an example of Jacob and Shepard talking about "Cerberus grr" and nothing coming of it.  No Cerberus mutiny, let's all follow Shepard!  Nothing like that.  Instead Shepard may flip TIM the bird at the end.  And who knows what the rest of the (potentially saved) crew would've said.  That would've been something.

The choice to destroy the base is more of an example of whether being an idiot, or actually giving ME2 some plot point value.  It has nothing to do with TIM.  He just makes the suggestion.  If it does, it's a thought of people who can't think beyond one hour.
[quote]
I'd say it extends a little farther than that. The first human Spectre, his squad took down a Reaper, tracked Saren, Shepard right now represents the best of the best. Cerberus wants to capitalize on that. I don't see how this is hard to understand.
[/quote]
The best of the dead, maybe.

"My BFF Gilgamesh says eternal life's an impossible quest"

Miranda: "Hey TIM. I need to resurrect Shepard.  You cool with that?"
TIM: "Yes.  Do it."
Miranda: "We're going to need a lot of---"
TIM: "Do it."

Capitalize indeed.
[quote]
And is it hard to imagine that while you're off recruiting your team and such that the Illusive Man is doing the information gathering himself? He says so in fact before you're given the Normandy. You're told to recruit your team while he gains any information on what the Reapers are planning. This is why he's responsible for handing out all your missions- he does have specialists on the job. Were you hoping that Shepard was going to be on another investigation hunter as with Saren?
[/quote]
I also think he's inhaling a bit much, but what's your point?

I've already explained countless times over that there's no reason to get these people aside from the behest of TIM and plot progression a la TIM.  No argument, no explanation, no clarity over our goal.  Our 4 man op is doing just fine (Shep, Miranda, Jacob, Mordin.)
[quote]
It also was never his plan to send you through the Omega IV relay unprepared. He explains that no ship has survived, so it would have been pointless. The human colony mission, collector ship, reaper ship, etc. These are all related to understanding your new enemy, how they function, and what is beyond the Omega IV relay. The team, the ship, the AI were all designed to prepare for any Unforseen Consequences, to quote Half-Life. Biotic specialist? Grab Jack. Need to fix something? Tali. Identify enemy aircraft? EDI.
[/quote]
Yes, those missions are helping us identify our enemy.  Forsooth!  'tis the Collectors.  But they don't in any way explain or detail the Suicide Mission, how we're going to Fight the Collectors, what is involved in that, etc.  All we know is we need an IFF to get through the relay.  Oh, and Collectors are Protheans.  Can't forget that.

Need a biotic specialist?  For what?  Need to fix something?  How about our two engineers and Mordin?
Sorry, but you don't need an illegal AI to identify enemy space ships.
[quote]
And doesn't all this fall within the range of 'suicide mission'? Going into this, the idea is that not everyone will be coming out alive for one reason or another. You say find information on the Collectors. I respond- how? It's a point made that no ship is capable of passing through the Omega IV relay. In addition, most if not all information on the collectors is limited beyond knowing they possess incredible technology and are working with the Reapers. The Normandy is able to investigate the derelict reaper and obtains the ability to pass through the Omega IV relay. Being the best ship available, the need to rescue its crew, and stop whatever plot the collectors are concocting, it does so.
[/quote]
How about camp the Omega 4 relay?  How about minefield it?  How about as soon as we get that IFF working, we use that tech, duplicate it, and port a comm buoy through?  (TIM had no problems doing so at the end of a bad ending scenario with multiple ships.)  We then scan the crap out of that area, get as much data as possible, then plan an attack.

No?  Oh okay.  We'll just recruit RANDOM PEOPLE for no explainable reason aside from TIM wanting us to be "READY FOR ANYTHING!" and send EVERYTHING all at once into the CENTER of the GALACTIC CORE about a MISSION we have NO DETAILS of.

Great logic.
[quote]
Perhaps not the best available story, but how does this truly differ from not knowing what resistance Shepard will find on Ilos? We know Saren has a massive warship available, a fleet of Geth at his command, and we choose to go in without a 'plan' as you say. Well, if the entire fleet had been waiting there, or even just Sovereign, the Normandy would be dust. If anything, it's even more foolish to think Shepard would attempt the feat alone given he has a definiteive knowledge what they are capable of.
[/quote]
1) We know Ilos is going to be a ground mission.  'cause it's a planet.  Called Ilos.  Star charts and stuff.
2) We know Saren doesn't have Sovereign at that point (or do we?  Sovereign winds up at the Citadel while this is going down.)  Either way it doesn't matter: the Geth can't detect the SR1.
3) 2 ifs. Keep em comin.
[quote]
Clearly they were necessary since the final mission required a ground team. Again, the good team could have been entirely useless. You could have passed through the relay, realized all you needed was a nuke, and come home without using your team. But is the opposite scenario better? It's better to have the team of specialists and not need them, then need them but not have them. Thane had no special role for the final mission, but knowing he is the best it's better to have him than not. Plus, who's to say this incredible unit is not designed to deal with the Reaper threat in ME3?
[/quote]
"Clearly they were necessary since the final mission required a ground team"?

Arguments after the fact, really?

You also could've passed through the relay and blew up into tiny pieces, colliding with space debris.  So glad the writers're doing their job.
[quote]
Now this is just being foolish. It was a team designed for any possible scenario, with a ship for every possible scenario, with an AI for the same reason. Or would you not agree that circumstances are everything when you plan something out? I feel Cerberus really did take into account any possibilities they could deal with.
[/quote]
No, no it really isn't!  If we learned that, that would be SOMETHING, regardless of what it was.  Personally I find caffeine rather deadly, and much more believable to hurting a genetically modified race, then shooting a massive Terminator embryo in its "Gooey toobs" when its armor plating magically turns on and off...

The team was NOT designed for every possible scenario.  This is clearly evidenced by EDI stating "we do not have sufficient ordinance on the Normandy to blow up doors."  They didn't bother getting a comabat engineer/zapper.  They didn't bother bring bombs?!  They didn't bother to upgrade Mordin's countermeasure to constitute massive swarms?!

And they never allowed me to feed my pet Hampster!  DAMNIT TIM.

The team was designed because the designers had freedom to make characters, and the programmers who made the plot went "um...wait a sec, guys?" And they rushed to hack the end into a tangible flow.
[quote]
Well, I could say the same for Jacob/Miranda in that advisory role. And Ashley's knowledge of the Geth was no more than what any Quarian could tell you. I'd say Legion had more of a reason to join your party than Ashley, or Tali. When recruiting Tali, we aren't even really given a reason for why she's so necessary.
[/quote]
Except Ash/Kaidan actually talk about every plot point when you complete it, whereas Miranda/Jacob just talk about whatever.

Ashley has more motivation.

Miranda is following orders to bring Shepard back.
Miranda doesn't like humans disappearing.
Miranda has daddy/sister/genetic issues.
Miranda can't @#$@#$ die on some parts of the suicide mission because the developers screwed it up.
Ashley is following orders as a soldier.
Ashley has first hand experience of what happened to her and her unit on Eden Prime, and is proud to serve with Shepard.
Ashley is pissed off she's just a grunt and can't fight back with her rifle properly.
Ashley has a martyr complex about proving herself to the Alliance over her grandfather's image, and is willing to curb her xenophobia and accept aliens on the team.
Ashley will shoot Wrex for you.
Ashley will sacrifice herself for you on Virmire.
[quote]
So it's better that we know Saren has a gigantic flagship and an army of Geth and choose to jump in anyway? Even if killing Saren wasn't the goal, he can still choose to force combat. Stealth systems or not, I'm curious what exactly the plan would have been if Saren had not gone ahead to the conduit with Sovereign.
[/quote]
I admit the Conduit tie in was a bit weird, especially Saren's behavior if all he had to do was not be a dick the entire time and simply walk up to the Presidium whenever Sovereign wanted.  But the plot was about the mystery of the Conduit, and both Saren and Shepard had to find out what that was.

Porting to Ilos is several times more intelligent than going through the Omega-4 relay, for the various reasons I've listed before.

[JediPilot0]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Yes, and I'm saying that Episode V's revelation at the time, though mind-blowing, did not develop the plot in a specific direction, which seems to be everyone's issue with ME2. 'I am your father' was a personal revelation to one particular character that later proved to be instrumental in how things played out.

Okay, I see what you mean, I guess. Though it did suggest that Luke would not necessarily take out Vader.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Episode V did not become the huge success it was until much later,
after the release of Episode VI and when everyone was able to look at
it and understand its role in the scheme of things.

But that's because audiences had never SEEN that type of storytelling before! I said before how Starwars was groundbreaking, which is why it's understandable that they didn't react well to ESB. Bioware seems like they want ME2 to be compared to ESB when ME2 fails to accomplish what even ESB did, even disregarding ROTJ.

ESB continued developing our characters and builds on what they were at the end of ANH. ME2 dumps all our accomplishments away and throws half our teamates into supporting roles. We see Wrex for a few minutes on Tuchancka and that's it. Same for Liara and Kaiden/Ahshely.

ESB (EDIT) DIDN'T (END EDIT) turn Han or Chewie or R2 into the background, while still bringing the series in a new direction and introducing new characters (Lando, Yoda, etc.)

Luke learns Vader is his father and is dwelling on it for the remainder of the film. Shepard DIES during the openeing credits and is resurrected 5 minutes later (audience time, though it's ridiculous I have to say that), and he doesn't even bat an eye about it.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Within the context of Shepard dying, I am fully able to understand why certain characters are not going to play the roles they used to. ........ That doesn't necessarily mean I won't bond with new ones.

I didn't say I don't like the new characters, and I understand completely why the characters changed over 2 years of Shepard's ressurection. I'm saying it's a poor  way of telling a story.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
We don't know what they were going to do? Were we playing the same game? I was under the impression that reapers harvest all life. We stopped Harbinger from getting his hands on another addition to his fleet and learned how a reaper is constructed.

Please tell me what they were going to do with the Human Reaper, since you know.

And as I said before, we don't know what the Reapers do. "Reproduction" is a means to what end? These are machines, afterall. These machines were built by someone, somwhere. What for? Hard to beleive you'd build a machine with the end goal of just reproducing.

Bioware is never quite clear about what it's revealing to us. Even EDI is just speculating that it's "possible" this is how they reproduce. I'm not sure if all this guesswork is what Bioware intended to be answers. ME1 was clearer on this.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
This is inconsistent now. You're saying the Collectors didn't need a public face. Check. Wasn't the issue earlier how your party members tied into the main plot? Without a public face, it's going to be difficult if impossible to give companions a reason to join the party in the way you're suggesting if it's fine for the Collectors to remain anonymous.

Whoa now.

You come up with your own string of logic (party members can only tie to main plot if collectors have a public face) and accuse me of being inconsitant? I never subscribed that string of logic in the first place!

Here's something I came up with in 10 seconds with ZERO effort: The collectors have been taking samples of many species for a while now. One of your squadmates had a parent/child/etc abducted. BOOM. Personal tie to collectors without the collectors needing a front man. And Bioware is better than me at storytelling. They could do something way more creative.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Well, no, they were not just 'sitting around' as you say. If you notice, they're all doing their own business when you go to recruit them, especially in the cases of Thane and Samara.

I'm talking about their contributions while under my command. Obviously everyone was doing something when you recruit them (in both games). Wrex was taking down Fist and Garrus was doing something with the doctor, trying to find Tali to help him with his Saren investigation, btw.
 

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
What unique ability does Tali bring in the first game? As has been mentioned, Udina mentions that she's 'survived an encounter with the Geth'. Does she develop any anti-Geth tech for me? No. Does she reveal combat upgrades? No. She sat on my ship twiddling her thumbs.

But you wouldn't have been able to convince the council without Tali, would you? She already helped you out.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Thane would not have agreed to go with you if it were anything short of spectacular. He is an honorable warrior/assassin, looking for a fitting end-which I chose to gave him in my run through. Think of him in terms of the Spartan wish for a 'beautiful death' as in 300. He wanted to go out with a bang. Not every character needed to be attached to the main plot in some clear cut fashion-

Which is why I also qustion what they are bringing to the table that no one else could. I could have replaced Thane with a generic soldier and handle the suicide mission exactly the same. His role never came into place.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Unlike Thane, Samara is not *looking* to die. Justicar bring their own twisted sense of justice to the world and believe it or not love 'noble' causes.

Me: Samara, this is a job interview. Why are you the best person for our team? What can you bring that no one else can

Samara: Well, I understand what Spectre are going through, and I like dishing out justice.

Me: Well, I think I'm going to hire Mortinth insead, becuase it DOESN'T MATTER YOU ARE REPLACEABLE.



Ack, my fingers  

Modifié par JediPilot0, 16 mars 2010 - 01:29 .

[IoCaster]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Awww, I'm sorry. If we can only pay attention to things that are logical, I'll stop looking at your posts. =)

Pay attention to whatever you want. I'm not obligated to take every absurdity the devs put into the game at face value.

Now, let's get onto the business at hand. This 'millitary is competent' deal of yours. 

1) This isn't the military anymore buddy. Cerberus has branched out into many other fields.

And yet they've managed to recruit a bunch of former Alliance personnel for your crew. It seems very likely that they'd be able to find any number of competent former military human or alien personnel to fill the squad ranks as well.   

2) It's been stated many times that the Alliance is only now discovering its potential in biotics. Kaidan, as an l2, is an example of the risk human biotics possess. Samara is an asari and a justicar, a species noted for being exceptional within the field of biotics. Tali is a Quarian, a species noted for *living* inside spaceships and are required to display competency in all manner of electronics. Garrus is a turian, a species that lives for warfare and is very reminiscent of Rome. Mordin is a salarian, a species noted for producing brilliant scientists which five minutes with him should demonstrate all you need. Grunt is a krogan, a species designed to produce brutally effective warriors and he is engineered to be the best of them.

1) Samara is the best option for an Asari biotic, but you can choose to let Morinth kill her and take her place? It's contrived and silly. If you choose to buy into that nonsense feel free, but don't give me some BS about it. 

2) Tali is there because the ME players already know the character and as fan service for lovesick Talimancers. If you believe otherwise that's your business.

3) Garrus is in the game for the same reason Tali is. Except that he's there for the female players.

4) Mordin has a significant role to play and I acknowledged that in my previous post. He probably shouldn't have been available to take out in the field, but other than his loyalty mission that's up to the player.

5) Grunt is a completely throwaway character and a waste of dev resources. You can leave him stewing in his tank ffs. 

If you are incapable of reading your codex, I am not going to spare your stupidity.

Yeah, whatever.  

And let's move onto your final paragraph (this might be excess reading for you, I know). They can easily do with companions in ME3 what they did with ME2. In the case of Wrex, if he lives, make him a prominent story character. If he dies, replace him with any idiot with a less prominent role.

This doesn't address the first point I made at all. If these 'elite' squad members were recruited because they were the best available and you'd need them in ME3, then why are they so expendable? 

How will this work with companions? Well, if Mordin lives through ME2, he can be your party member in ME3. If he does not, then you make do with whose left. If they design the combat system the way they did with ME2, I will have no issue rolling out with any two party members because unlike ME1, even if that's all I have because they had great mechanics and useful abilities. If my party is at most me, Ashley, and Garrus, there will be no problem. 

Whatever BioWare chooses to do with surviving squad members in ME3 has not been revealed. I'm inclined to think that they'll go for the most efficient and least costly option. In other words, cameo roles and emails for most of them. If you want to speculate about essential or plot driven roles that's your prerogative, but I'm not interested in leaping off that precipice of presumption. 

Modifié par IoCaster, 16 mars 2010 - 12:13 .

[wolf99000]

dont want to make this all about star wars but that one line took the plot of the rest of the film and part 3 in a whole new direction not only did you have the conflict in luke can he kill his own dad

everything you read about empire tells you that everyone was debating is it true it hit the whole audience massively

in me 2 you had a few of those moments that makes the whole fanbase debating over things hell that is why we are all here the dark energy thing for one plus I dont get why people say that in 2 you are not fighting the real theart did I dream the part about harbinger being a reaper

as I said before the 2nd part is all about putting you in the worse postion you can like in the ending you are really all alone 1 ship vs the whole reaper fleet that is coming

[RhythmlessNinja]

My rating for ME2:

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...

Yup

You're right nothing happened at all in ME2. It was a huge waste of time because all Shepard did was wake up, rip ass, and go back to sleep. There was no plot, the characters were pointless, and there was no reason to even put the CD in the drive.

Glad to see you've come to...hey wait a second!

That's the kind of statement that derails any good point you make.

Oh great.  I R smudboy.  I R babboon.

You obviously can't figure out that you learn more about the Reapers than you did in the first game. Is it conclusive 'we're gonna wup their ass' kind of magic bullet? No, and the game would be a disgrace if that's how it turned out.

We learn that ME2 completely destroyed any semblance to intellectual-superiority of the Reapers, or that "rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh" are magical building soupy blocks of intellectual-superior Reapers.  For a metal robot.  Which is now a cyborg.  Or a really wet piece of metal.  I don't know about you, but MILLIONS of humans being melted down into a soup, being fed by 4 massive tubes into...some kind of...liquid container of a metal robot...

It's stupid.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The Reapers are operating at a distance

What!?  You mean in ME2 we're fighting a proxy war?

They do not handle the dirty work themselves, because they use mind control and agents to do the work for them, so that when they do finally step in, they don't lose any or very few of their ranks and leave no evidence they even exist. Is that spelled out to you by way of a Prezi? No. You actually have to think to figure that out.

Well now that you've explained it to me, Chief.  It's all clear.

BioWare, give this man a job.

You constantly demand the events of the game to be completely spelled out to you when you're dealing with established unknowns. It is established from the beginning that the Reapers are, by and large, a huge threat that no one knows anything about. The Geth in ME? They operate behind cover, don't let anyone come in to study or communicate with them and not even the quarians know much about them anymore and they created them. The Collectors? Once again, there is a precedent that no one knows anything about them.

Yeah, it's called the plot.  "Hello?  I want to know wtf is going on?"

I want an enemy/main opposing force/antagonist whose motivations are clear?  Like, I think it was to build a Terminator?  I guess?  I want to know why I'm being railroaded to do TIMs bidding, despite ME1 telling me that he and Cerberus are pure evil?  I want to know why I'm getting all these characters to "Fight the Collectors?"

How do you plan for that? You don't. Would taking nukes be beneficial to a fight? Sure. But TIM also sets a strong precedent that he wants to use any lead he can find, regardless of the cost. This is established in Ascension, in the Mission complete logs for most of the missions in the game, from political scenarios to technology to military operations. If you nuke the base to hell, you can't use it and that's not on TIM's agenda. When or if you overload the base, you royally ****** him off so why would he give you that option before even having a chance to find out what's out there? He was willing to sacrifice you and your entire team for any technology that the Collectors have, he sent you into a trap once already so why would he care if you died to obtain an edge?

So your plan is...no plan?  Is this like some Zen thing?

"We defeat the Collectors by...not defeating them!  It's brilliant.  They'll never see us...not coming!"

TIM never wanted to "save whatever was there" because 1) he didn't know, 2) he just found out the base could send out a neutron pulse after EDI got him the specs on it.

The plot was advanced because now we know what the Reapers are. You stopped their most well-protected agent, and now, if their advancing toward the Milky Way is any indication, have forced their hand. You have an entire squad of loyal fighters at your side, a small-scale Reaper with EDI unshackled, and, maybe most importantly, a mountain of recorded data collected throughout the story that proves what the Collectors are, how they came to be, and the Reapers' involvement in their rewriting. Proof that the Reapers exist and were orchestrating the colony attacks. Is that spelled out at the end of the story? No. But EDI is an AI and has stored data dating all the way back to when the first Normandy was blown up. It's logical to assume correctly that she has proof the Reapers exist. That lets you work with the Council in the future and combine their resources to the coming battle. Not to mention, if you keep the base, the biggest compilation of practical Reaper technology you've encountered at any point in the damn story. Not a taunting conversation with one that only you ever saw, or some fizzed out VI terminal that doesn't work anymore. Tangible, working Reaper technology.

Explain how the plot is advanced by us knowing what the Reapers are.

(By the way, what are the Reapers?)

Is this put in a Power Point presentation at the end of the game that neatly prints it to you? No. You actually have to put your displeasure with the lack of background stories, minor comments by squadmates regarding the status of the mission (which Jacob actually performs for you if you cared to look, ask him about the mission progress), and whiny arguments with Cerberus that would only delay the inevitable of working with them anyway, aside to see the point that ME2 moved the story forward by combining learning more about your archenemy and taking down their nastiest, most difficult to thwart agent at the same time, while equipping yourself with a bad ass ship, crew, soon to be a tank to conduct seige operations, and the hinted and very probable notion that future content that BioWare has repeatedly said will be released throughout the year to expand on the story.

So because I have a ship (just like the old one only more), have squad mates (just like the old ones only more), eventually get a DLC tank, eventually get more DLC which (won't) expand on the main plot, and forgo my displeasure of what you said above (because we learned the Reapers are...something...), I will...understand that ME2 moved the story forward by combining learning more about your archenemy and taking down their nastiest, most difficult to thwart agent at the same time?

Okay.

I can't even understand that sentence.

[Hurbster]

Wow, lot of heavy opinions here. Some quite forceful ones too. Mine is that yes it advamced the plot quite a bit. That's it really.

[JediPilot0]

Let us be clear:

Exposition

NOT EQUAL TO

Plot Advancement.

That is all.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 16 mars 2010 - 01:59 .

[JediPilot0]

ANATOMY OF A THREAD:

Stage 1: both sides of an issue exchange short, polite points on a topic.
Stage 2: Comments get longer and more indepth, reaching paragraph size
Stage 3: Comments back and forth are achieved by quoting the other guy's post
Stage 4: Mutli-paragraph responses, dissecting details by quoting partial comments
Stage 5: Responses are sharper in tone, longer and begin using italics, bold, or underlines pointlessly
Stage 6: Sarcasm is introduced, sometimes in combination with italics, bold, or underlines
Stage 7: First insult is thrown (in this case, "idiot", "stupid", or something about a weasel a page or two back )
Stage 8: Breakdown of social order. Chaos ensues. Wild West.
Stage 9: Many people NOT participating in the thread enter and insult everyone who is participating.
Stage10: Thread slowly withers and dies.

We are between stages 7 and 8 right now, guys. Let's cool down a bit before it explodes.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 16 mars 2010 - 01:54 .

[glacier1701]

JMA22TB wrote...


...snip...

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The Reapers are operating at a distance. They do not handle the dirty work themselves, because they use mind control and agents to do the work for them, so that when they do finally step in, they don't lose any or very few of their ranks and leave no evidence they even exist. Is that spelled out to you by way of a Prezi? No. You actually have to think to figure that out.

While this is a potential valid idea it fails on one major point. WTF have the Reapers been doing for 2,000 years? From the info ingame they tried the lets 'use someone else' plan and it failed. So what do they do? They go and do it again? And it is quite conceivable (no evidence for it though) that they may have tried several times in the time from the Rachni Wars to the last attempt on the Citadel. Yet the very tools that could be used and with NO SUSPICION is right there. They have the Collectors. Once again ALL the Collectors have to do is to call in and say Hey Guys we want to join the Citadel races so we are sending in a ship. By the time anyone figures out anyone is wrong the shooting has started and the Reapers are coming in. Heck they do not even need Sovereign all they need do is load up with Occulus, let them loose to take care of the odd ship or three that might be nearby and they'll have plenty of time to reach the controls and start the whole process.

Hell if at the end of ME2 they are coming in why not 2000 years ago after the first failed attempt? No all ME2 does is mess up everything that was established in ME1 with nonsense as presented in ME2.

JMA22TB wrote...
...snip...
But TIM also sets a strong precedent that he wants to use any lead he can find, regardless of the cost. This is established in Ascension, in the Mission complete logs for most of the missions in the game, from political scenarios to technology to military operations. If you nuke the base to hell, you can't use it and that's not on TIM's agenda. When or if you overload the base, you royally ****** him off so why would he give you that option before even having a chance to find out what's out there? He was willing to sacrifice you and your entire team for any technology that the Collectors have, he sent you into a trap once already so why would he care if you died to obtain an edge?

You are using the books which while expounding on the game cannot be used simply because it is NOT required to play the games. What evidence you have is anything that is in game. Anything outside is off limits. The other problem in the above is that UNTIL you go through the Omega-4 relay you and TIM have no idea what is on the other side. What if there is a homeworld or hundreds of worlds with Collectors on them? A huge fleet?  What Shepard has is NOT going to be able to deal with that. Heck the Collectors can see through the stealth tech on the Normandy so ALL that could be accomplished would be to turn around and run back.

Of course this is NOT what is going to happen because the developers knew what would be found and specifically tailored the ship and squad to meet that challenge. They, in a sense, cheated.

JMA22TB wrote...


The plot was advanced because now we know what the Reapers are. You stopped their most well-protected agent, and now, if their advancing toward the Milky Way is any indication, have forced their hand. You have an entire squad of loyal fighters at your side, a small-scale Reaper with EDI unshackled, and, maybe most importantly, a mountain of recorded data collected throughout the story that proves what the Collectors are, how they came to be, and the Reapers' involvement in their rewriting. Proof that the Reapers exist and were orchestrating the colony attacks. Is that spelled out at the end of the story? No. But EDI is an AI and has stored data dating all the way back to when the first Normandy was blown up. It's logical to assume correctly that she has proof the Reapers exist. That lets you work with the Council in the future and combine their resources to the coming battle. Not to mention, if you keep the base, the biggest compilation of practical Reaper technology you've encountered at any point in the damn story. Not a taunting conversation with one that only you ever saw, or some fizzed out VI terminal that doesn't work anymore. Tangible, working Reaper technology.

In this you are making assumptions that are not justified. While we have a gun that can kill a Collector ship there is NO proof it can kill a Reaper. Indeed it is stated that the Mass Accelerator weapon is of the order of magnitude of class of powerful weapon you need and there is NO evidence from what we saw that the new gun on the Normandy (provided you actually play a game and upgrade to it - another point here in that you assume YOUR playthrough is the only right playthrough when others may not get the gun in which case you have ONLY normal guns!!!) can create a huge canyon on a planet. You also assume that the 'evidence' will be believed when the Council has laws against AI, did not see the Collectors and has every reason to believe you 'made up the evidence to back your delusions.' I mean if they did not believe you when they were able to physically touch pieces of a Reaper then why would they believe you now?

Another point as well is that the evidence we have is that there could be 2 types of Reaper. The one the Collectors were building needed organic material. We are told that for it to be complete it would need MILLIONS of humans. OKie so where is the evidence of organic material in Sovereign? If MILLIONS of organic bodies are needed you cannot just wave a magic wand and say well they didnt find any. While not every single piece of Sovereign was collected the Council DID get its hands on a huge percentage of it and they did not find one single microgram of foreign organic material in it? Heck Cerberus got enough of the wreckage to actually devise ANTI-REAPER algorythms (according to EDI) and they didnt find any organic material either? So either Sovereign is a different type of Reaper from the one the Collectors were making or BioWare plain screwed up the plot. If they screwed up the plot then it wasnt advanced. If it was not screwed up then we still know nothing about what a Reaper is. Is it a machine intelligence or a organic/synthtic hybrid? So far we have evidence of it BOTH types being possible with no indciation of which is correct.

JMA22TB wrote...


 ME2 moved the story forward by combining learning more about your archenemy and taking down their nastiest, most difficult to thwart agent at the same time, while equipping yourself with a bad ass ship, crew, soon to be a tank to conduct seige operations, and the hinted and very probable notion that future content that BioWare has repeatedly said will be released throughout the year to expand on the story.

Nope. We got more questions about who the enemy. Are they or are they not machine AI? The gun on the Normandy is NOT guaranteed to be able to do anything against a Reaper. The 'squad' is pretty well of NO use in a space battle which is what the war with the Reaper fleet will be. We still have not any answers to the question of why they didnt fly in (as they are shown to be doing at the end of ME2) 2,000 years ago.

So once again the question is did the plot get advanced? No it did not. If anything it got set back several light years as so much more needs to be answered.

Modifié par glacier1701, 16 mars 2010 - 02:43 .

[glacier1701]

JediPilot0 wrote...

ANATOMY OF A THREAD:

Stage 1: both sides of an issue exchange short, polite points on a topic.
Stage 2: Comments get longer and more indepth, reaching paragraph size
Stage 3: Comments back and forth are achieved by quoting the other guy's post
Stage 4: Mutli-paragraph responses, dissecting details by quoting partial comments
Stage 5: Responses are sharper in tone, longer and begin using italics, bold, or underlines pointlessly
Stage 6: Sarcasm is introduced, sometimes in combination with italics, bold, or underlines
Stage 7: First insult is thrown (in this case, "idiot", "stupid", or something about a weasel a page or two back )
Stage 8: Breakdown of social order. Chaos ensues. Wild West.
Stage 9: Many people NOT participating in the thread enter and insult everyone who is participating.
Stage10: Thread slowly withers and dies.

We are between stages 7 and 8 right now, guys. Let's cool down a bit before it explodes.

 A very good point.

[Bwaksson]

smudboy wrote...
Yeah, it's called the plot.  "Hello?  I want to know wtf is going on?"

I want an enemy/main opposing force/antagonist whose motivations are clear?  Like, I think it was to build a Terminator?  I guess?  I want to know why I'm being railroaded to do TIMs bidding, despite ME1 telling me that he and Cerberus are pure evil?  I want to know why I'm getting all these characters to "Fight the Collectors?"

It can be part of the plot not to know. Especially in a series. Sequels answer questions and asks new ones now that we have new info. I certainly don't expect to understand everything in ME2 because I know there will be a sequel.
In ME1 you find out that Cerberus is pure evil and xenophobic to boot. So you maul them.
In ME2 you find out that they're not all that bad and possibly even OK guys and girls. So you work with them. Suspiciously sure, but they do try to fix something you're interested in fixing.

In ME1 you learn that the Reapers exist and that they are well...smart machines? And their motives are alien enough so they only speculate as far as the story is concerned.
In ME2 you learn that Reapers aren't actually all machine. They are Artificial constructs composed of both organic and inorganic components. And that they harvest genetic material in order to make more of themselves.
That answers the question of their motive to some part, they need organic species to reproduce. Since the topic of speculation from ME1 has been mostly answered they introduce another. Why do they incorporate organics at all and why did they decide to make a humanoid reaper. Presumably we get the answer to that in ME3.

As for the wealth of teammates I agree in theory. Everyone should have a distinct function or widely seperated abilities. But people wan't a large selection to choose from. Be it cars, chocolate, furniture or game characters. Adding a few characters without any storyline purpose is an easy (read cheap if you will) way to make more people happy. And Bioware being a company, not a foundation, are interested in profit.

IMO it is utterly boring to know exactly what's going on. Letting the viewers imagination fill in the blanks is an old movie trick which has prooved succesfull on more than one occation. I don't see why that wouldn't work in games. Because I think it does.

[JMA22TB]

First of all, I went a little too far in what I was saying earlier and I apologize.



I don't blame you, smudboy, for wanting to know more about the threat we're supposed to face in the ME series, the Reapers. It's a bit frustrating, but there's a reason I'm okay with it



There is precedent in the game's plot that this is an enemy that no one knows much of anything about. The inherent problem I have with what you're apparently demanding is a full explanation for an enemy that is clearly defined as 'alien, unknowable' from the very beginning.

[JediPilot0]

glacier1701 wrote...
OKie so where is the evidence of organic material in Sovereign? If MILLIONS of organic bodies are needed you cannot just wave a magic wand and say well they didnt find any. While not every single piece of Sovereign was collected the Council DID get its hands on a huge percentage of it and they did not find one single microgram of foreign organic material in it? Heck Cerberus got enough of the wreckage to actually devise ANTI-REAPER algorythms (according to EDI) and they didnt find any organic material either? So either Sovereign is a different type of Reaper from the one the Collectors were making or BioWare plain screwed up the plot.

Wow, I didn't even think about this. Yeah, where's all the organic goup from Sovereign....or even the DERELICT Reaper that Cerberus had teams going over? Maybe the teams didn't have enough time to find out, maybe, but the point still stands.