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[JediPilot0]

Timeline of progress in stopping Reapers:

ME1 Ending:                              ME2 Begins:                   ME2 Ending:
------------------------------------------                                     ----------->
    |                                                  |                                    |             |
                                                       |                                    |      
-Reapers are out there,                |                                    |             -Reapers are out there,
they are comming,                        |                                     |                  they are comming,
we have to stop them.                  |                                     |                   we have to stop them.
                                                       |                                     |
                                                       |                                     |
                                                        |                                    |
                                                         ---------------------------
                                                            -Introduce Collectors
                                                            -Stop Collectors.
                                                            -Stop a Human Reaper being built
                                                             for unknown purposes.


Learning things does not constitute plot advancement. Exposition is not plot advancement.

Man, I hope that timeline comes out right.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 16 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[IoCaster]

I've played this game (ME2) to completion close to a dozen times now. As a video game it really is a great deal of fun. I enjoy the combat, powers/talents, most of the level design and missions. Where it falls apart for me is the plot and a seemingly utter disregard for continuity with ME. Having said that, I think what bothers me even more are the characters in the game. The stark difference in the two games has started to resonate with me in a way that I can't ignore.


Mass Effect

ME had a reasonably mature and serious tone throughout. The attack on Eden Prime initiated the investigation by Shepard and crew. You picked up Ashley during the course of events and go on to the Citadel to expose Saren to the Council. You run into Garrus and witness his meeting with Executor Pallin. This sets the stage for Garrus and his frustration with C-Sec. His motivation to ask to accompany Shep on the mission is pretty clear. Wrex has the Fist contract to fulfill, so joining you as you take down the goons at Choras Den is straightforward enough. His motive for joining your squad for the rest of the game is not as clear cut. Tali provides the evidence you need, but her reason for asking to join you are even less well defined. She is a relatively young Quarian on her pilgrimage, but the game forces you to take her along. Perhaps because the devs intuitively knew that some players would balk because of her youth and lack of clear motive. Obviously, you pick up Liara as you progress and her motivation is well defined. 

The point of this recap is that the members of your squad have a mostly reasonable explanation for joining you. They're also a fairly normal group of individuals. When you take them into battle, you don't expect amazing feats of super hero combat action. They wear regular armor and full helmets in hostile environments. They have semi-normal backgrounds and dialogue. Just a team of mostly regular type folks getting swept up in a grand adventure to save the galaxy. This was really compelling stuff and very well executed by BioWare. And then we have...

Mass Effect 2


We have the whole series reboot with the destruction of the Normandy and subsequent death of Shepard. The ridiculous Lazarus Project resurrection contrivance. The nonsensical requirement of being stuck working with Cerberus regardless of the events of ME that set you at odds with the group at every turn. But I've come to the realization that the biggest problem that I personally have with this hack job is the team of comic book super heroes that I get saddled with. Ugh!

Loyalist, Genius, Archangel, Joker, Batman, Dr.D00M, etc,..WTF?

Meet Subject Zero. Her introductory cutscene shows her coming out of cryo freeze, busting out of metal restraints and performing a bare knuckle, biotic take down of three Ymir mechs. Less than thirty minutes later I'm watching her get smacked down by a single husk on Horizon.

Meet Samara and watch in amazement as she tosses Eclipse mercs around like rag dolls. Another super hero debut that fails to live up to her billing.

Meet Thane "Smooth Moves" Krios. Witness his flawless victory as he takes out Nassana and her hapless crew of bodyguards with his excellent Kung Fu.

I could go on but it should be clear by now. These are over-the-top, comic book caricatures and that's a big problem for me. This is not a serious story or plot. It takes the mature tone and foundation that was laid in ME and craps all over it with wild abandon. Whether it's Miranda and her porn queen physique or Samara with her cleavage and ridiculous outfit. Jack with her nipple belt and grossly exaggerated body art. Heck even Jacob styles around in a skin tight bodysuit that's jammed up his butt.

You end up hauling a group of misfits around the galaxy doing recruitment and loyalty missions for them and it comprises 75-80 percent of the game. It's all a bunch of fun, but how in the world does it even make sense as a sequel to ME?

Why did BioWare do this?

[JediPilot0]

Damnit, IoCaster, you've tainted any future playthroughs of ME2 for me. I realize you're right (I mean, I agree).

In ME1, it was amazing when Joker did the 20m drop of the Mako right on Saren's ass. But everyone you recruit in ME2 is like a superhero in some way. I know they are supposed to be "the best", but it does add a sort of comic book feel to it.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 16 mars 2010 - 04:13 .

[IoCaster]

JediPilot0 wrote...

Damnit, IoCaster, you've tainted any future playthroughs of ME2 for me.

I love playing the game. It's just that I find it extremely difficult to take it seriously that's all. It's all in good fun and hopefully BioWare can bring it back down to a more mature focus in ME3.  

Modifié par IoCaster, 16 mars 2010 - 05:06 .

[smudboy]

Bwaksson wrote...
It can be part of the plot not to know.

• NO.

I can say so much right now.

Especially in a series.

• NO. (x2)

But I feel I'd be hurting myself in the process.

Sequels answer questions and asks new ones now that we have new info. I certainly don't expect to understand everything in ME2 because I know there will be a sequel.

Little children (who don't know how to write) with younger brothers answer questions and ask new ones now that they have new info.  I certainly don't expert to understand everything in ME2 because I know little children (who don't know how to write) have younger brothers (who may/may not know how to write, but hey, he comes after his younger brother.)

So if ME was a series a la Terry Brooks Shannara books, when do we stop the ridiculous apologists argument that "the next sequel will explain everything properly?"

In ME1 you find out that Cerberus is pure evil and xenophobic to boot. So you maul them.
In ME2 you find out that they're not all that bad and possibly even OK guys and girls. So you work with them. Suspiciously sure, but they do try to fix something you're interested in fixing.

Oh I'm sorry.  The mass murderers conducting inhuman experiments are people too.  The same people who (if sole survivor) wiped out Shepard's entire unit, conducted experiments on Toombs, killed more humans (that they're sworn to protect and advance) than Saren ever did, and left Shepard physically and mentally scarred for life.

Oh but they brought me back from the dead.  They can't be all that bad.:innocent:

In ME1 you learn that the Reapers exist and that they are well...smart machines? And their motives are alien enough so they only speculate as far as the story is concerned.
In ME2 you learn that Reapers aren't actually all machine. They are Artificial constructs composed of both organic and inorganic components. And that they harvest genetic material in order to make more of themselves.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That answers the question of their motive to some part, they need organic species to reproduce. Since the topic of speculation from ME1 has been mostly answered they introduce another. Why do they incorporate organics at all and why did they decide to make a humanoid reaper. Presumably we get the answer to that in ME3.

It also completely destroys what ME1 setup.  It turns the great destroyers of the universe into idiots with no backup plan to restart the next cycle of destruction, so their sevants can slowly harvest humans to make another of itself, for some reason.  But because we don't know their plot to do so, to you, that's a good thing.

Oh you say they'll tell us in ME3?  Well, isn't that convenient?

As for the wealth of teammates I agree in theory. Everyone should have a distinct function or widely seperated abilities. But people wan't a large selection to choose from. Be it cars, chocolate, furniture or game characters. Adding a few characters without any storyline purpose is an easy (read cheap if you will) way to make more people happy. And Bioware being a company, not a foundation, are interested in profit.

Wow.  We went from talking about game content, story and the framework of stories across sequels to "it's all about money."  Gives you that warm feeling, all over.

IMO it is utterly boring to know exactly what's going on. Letting the viewers imagination fill in the blanks is an old movie trick which has prooved succesfull on more than one occation. I don't see why that wouldn't work in games. Because I think it does.

If by old movie trick, an old B-movie trick.  You know, the movies that are so unbelievably bad, you watch them out of comedic value?

"Shepard went to the Collector Base."  Is not a plot.
"Shepard went to the Collector Base, to save the galaxy" is.  But by your reasoning, it's utterly boring to know that.  Or the motives and reasoning of every other plot in the story.  Nevermind such other plots intertwining with the main one.  Let's not have plots at all.  Let's just all imagine why Shepard's doing what he's doing, why n character is along for the ride, even though we have no clue in hell why they're here.

Oh right, TIM:innocent: said so.

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...

First of all, I went a little too far in what I was saying earlier and I apologize.

I don't blame you, smudboy, for wanting to know more about the threat we're supposed to face in the ME series, the Reapers. It's a bit frustrating, but there's a reason I'm okay with it

There is precedent in the game's plot that this is an enemy that no one knows much of anything about. The inherent problem I have with what you're apparently demanding is a full explanation for an enemy that is clearly defined as 'alien, unknowable' from the very beginning.

When their goal is to create a cybernetic giant by smelting humans into some kind of bizarre magical-tube-in-robot ritual, yeah.  Kinda requires a full explanation at that point.
HOW would be a good start.
WHY would be essential.
WHAT they're trying to accomplish is good too.
And why the devil they chucked ME1's perfectly coherent setup.

This is crap a 6 year old comes up with.  But it doesn't even have the 6 year old explanation to go with it.

In fact, the whole Harbinger taunting Shepard is completely childish.  Right.  Our genetic destiny is the super-big-gulp-genetic-slurry-graft?  We can't get any dialog with the guy.  He just pops up, spouts one linears, and we kill his avatar-minion.  What, with everything after David Caruso, dumbness comes?

THIS is the fearsome Reaper fleet?  These are the super-intelligent creatures whose motives are beyond our comprehension?

Oh and the hole pacing crap and why we pick up 11 people for no reason, that too.

[JediPilot0]

smudboy wrote...
Little children (who don't know how to write) with younger brothers answer questions and ask new ones now that they have new info.  I certainly don't expert to understand everything in ME2 because I know little children (who don't know how to write) have younger brothers (who may/may not know how to write, but hey, he comes after his younger brother.)

Wat

[BaladasDemnevanni]

JediPilot0 wrote...

Timeline of progress in stopping Reapers:

ME1 Ending:                              ME2 Begins:                   ME2 Ending:
------------------------------------------                                     ----------->
    |                                                  |                                    |             |
                                                       |                                    |      
-Reapers are out there,                |                                    |             -Reapers are out there,
they are comming,                        |                                     |                  they are comming,
we have to stop them.                  |                                     |                   we have to stop them.
                                                       |                                     |
                                                       |                                     |
                                                        |                                    |
                                                         ---------------------------
                                                            -Introduce Collectors
                                                            -Stop Collectors.
                                                            -Stop a Human Reaper being built
                                                             for unknown purposes.


Learning things does not constitute plot advancement. Exposition is not plot advancement.

Man, I hope that timeline comes out right.

I'll deal with the responses on p. 16 in a second but I just want to address this quickly. What we receieved at the end of ME1 was a misjudgment. Because Shepard says he has to fight the war agains the Reapers does not mean they are waiting outside the Citadel as he leads a fleet against them. That's far too underwhelming for what the Reapers were built up to be. So no, we did not officially know that the 'Reapers are coming'. They were still in dark space waiting for Sovereign's indication to attack the Citadel. The Reapers instead chose to respond by sending the Collectors after Shepard.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
2) Yes.  TIM said his hello.  Now it's time to reign holy terror on his terrorist ass for killing the humans he's supposed to be protecting.  Instead you're railroaded into doing whatever he says, because.  Whether P or R, Shepard has CERBERUS issues that MUST BE ANSWERED.

Oh wait.  This is ME2.  **** ME1. [/quote]

Let's examine the situation here. You have just been brought back from the dead.  If not the very best, one of the most powerful ships in the Alliance fleet has just been utterly raped by a Collector Cruiser. The Council has decided to pretend there was no Reaper threat. You have no rank, no squad, or resources. Given this situation, are you really going to find yourself challenging your 'one' potential ally who actually seems to understand the full scope of what the Reapers can do?

Yes, Cerberus is 'inhuman'. Yes, they conduct experiments, etc. But the fact is they also support and believe you. They are also willing to supply you with whatever you need. They do not even force you to follow their own moral philosophy, allowing you to complete your objectives in whatever fashion you choose as long as results are obtained. And they did resurrect you. Now given this situation, are you honestly going to try telling me that for some stupid reason Shepard is supposed to throw a hissy fit and start yet another war in addition to dealing with the Reapers and Collectors?

[quote]
I'm not saying it's a fantastic character development either.  I'm saying it's at least there.  If you're ****ing that there's a lazy attempt at it in ME1, they completely removed it in ME2. [/quote]

And by this logic, the plot of ME2 is there, if extremely thin as you seem to argue. Shepard, the reaper threat, several companions, and the same universe all return to this sequel. Yet in this instance clearly 'something' [the plot] which is there, like it or not, is not enough for you. So again, something is not always better than nothing, so please stop trying to defend this pathetic point that having a background, which sucks, by definition supersedes not having a background.

[quote]
First game had good character interaction, and what they said had value, compared to the conversations in ME2.  "Tell me more about Justicars..." Obviously not as large a quantity as 2, but I don't recall any other game having high-res lip-synched high-res talking heads in a sci-fi world.  The lack of character animations argument is completely moot in both games.  Thane and Jack are the only ones that are bloody sitting down. [/quote]

Minor point but- Samara and Miranda-both also sitting down. Character animations extend beyond merely standing or sitting. What they say, when they say it, and the position they are in when it is said all have merit as well. When I have a conversation in ME2, it actually feels like I'm talking to another person, complete with tiny nuances of expression. ME1 only sounds like you're talking to another person. In this way, it failed spectacularly to break new ground.

[quote]
Yes.

Sure she could have.  The SR2 had no problems going anywhere it wanted.  There was no reason to have Shepard.

My argument was an example of Jacob and Shepard talking about "Cerberus grr" and nothing coming of it.  No Cerberus mutiny, let's all follow Shepard!  Nothing like that.  Instead Shepard may flip TIM the bird at the end.  And who knows what the rest of the (potentially saved) crew would've said.  That would've been something.

The choice to destroy the base is more of an example of whether being an idiot, or actually giving ME2 some plot point value.  It has nothing to do with TIM.  He just makes the suggestion.  If it does, it's a thought of people who can't think beyond one hour. [/quote]

No, she couldn't have. This is a point I repeat time and time again which you refuse to understand. Miranda lacks leadership. She is not just operating a dreadnaught. She must command an entire ship, all with people of different beliefs and opinions. She demonstrates the sterotypical Cerberus attitude (cold, calculating, unsympathetic) that makes her unable to persuade the various party members (Tali, Jack, etc) to follow her. This even extends to those under her direct command. Wilson refers to her as a cold-hearted **** and he was also Cerberus.

Shepard is/was a living symbol. He has an insane amount of combat experience, a great deal of charisma, and knows how to get the job damn well done. TIM saw this in ME1. The reapers are also interested in him personally, not Miranda giving him a personal incentive to at least listen to TIM. Miranda is a great right hand, but she can never lead herself.

And it seems you really want to devalue the ending of ME2. 'Makes the suggestion' as if it had no possible relevance in how things will play out. As if that didn't tell you that possibly everything TIM told you, about stopping the reapers, collectors, etc, might have been just so that he could get his hands on this item? We knew he couldn't be trusted. But this put him in an entirely different light. A rebellion against Cerberus as you suggested would be illogical for the reasons I explained.

[quote]
"My BFF Gilgamesh says eternal life's an impossible quest"

Miranda: "Hey TIM. I need to resurrect Shepard.  You cool with that?"
TIM: "Yes.  Do it."
Miranda: "We're going to need a lot of---"
TIM: "Do it."

Capitalize indeed. [/quote]

Big rewards require big investments. TIM is not an idiot. If he could pull it off, resurrecting Shepard would be worth it to obtain the facility. In my file, his plan worked flawlessly. In others, it came tumbling down.

[quote]
I also think he's inhaling a bit much, but what's your point?

I've already explained countless times over that there's no reason to get these people aside from the behest of TIM and plot progression a la TIM.  No argument, no explanation, no clarity over our goal.  Our 4 man op is doing just fine (Shep, Miranda, Jacob, Mordin.) [/quote]

The point is that you're working to two different goals. 1. You [Shepard] recruit your team. 2. Illusive Man will track the Collectors and fill you in on necessary information. This is to combat your point that you should be 'gathering intel' before immediately rushing in. You also missed a point that Jacob makes quite early in the game. Cerberus is all about 'action', in one form or another. They do not sit around waiting for things to come to them, as the Council is doing with the Reaper threat. They mobilize.

[quote]
Yes, those missions are helping us identify our enemy.  Forsooth!  'tis the Collectors.  But they don't in any way explain or detail the Suicide Mission, how we're going to Fight the Collectors, what is involved in that, etc.  All we know is we need an IFF to get through the relay.  Oh, and Collectors are Protheans.  Can't forget that.

Need a biotic specialist?  For what?  Need to fix something?  How about our two engineers and Mordin?
Sorry, but you don't need an illegal AI to identify enemy space ships. [/quote]

Sorry, but you actually do. No human on their own is going to be able to identify any technology of the Collectors. Simultaneously a VI can only function within its limited programming and context. An AI, which can think for itself and has access to much more knowledge/information *and* at a faster rate, is all you're going to have to fill that role. EDI makes this point clear when you ask her about her functions.

To your 'biotic specialist' point. It's not about what you need, but what you might need. I said it before. It's better to have the biotic and not need her, then need her and not have her. That's the mentality I got when recruiting my team. They each specialize in some sort of function. Did I know whether they would be put to the test? No. Did I at least understand it's always useful to have specialists to aid you? Hell yeah. Especially since Normandy SR-1 was so unprepared. The presence of even an AI like EDI could have turned the tide of that situation.

[quote]
How about camp the Omega 4 relay?  How about minefield it?  How about as soon as we get that IFF working, we use that tech, duplicate it, and port a comm buoy through?  (TIM had no problems doing so at the end of a bad ending scenario with multiple ships.)  We then scan the crap out of that area, get as much data as possible, then plan an attack.

No?  Oh okay.  We'll just recruit RANDOM PEOPLE for no explainable reason aside from TIM wanting us to be "READY FOR ANYTHING!" and send EVERYTHING all at once into the CENTER of the GALACTIC CORE about a MISSION we have NO DETAILS of. Great logic. [/quote]

Listen to yourself. 'Camp the Omega IV relay'. Really? Against the Collectors, who were able to see through the Normandy's stealth systems, who have technology more advanced than even the Council, who've managed to keep anyone from crossing through the relay before that. Somehow, I think they would detect a mine field, someone camping the relay, or whatever other tactic you've suggested. It took all of TIM's resources to even track them to the extent he was able and this was over the course of 2 years. He has his suspicions, some facts, and many mysteries.

And I still would like a response to Shepard's excuse for carelessly chasing after Saren on Virmire. He had no knowledge of what he was going to find once arriving, whether a Geth fleet, a desolate planet or whatever. I'd call that 'no details'.

[quote]
1) We know Ilos is going to be a ground mission.  'cause it's a planet.  Called Ilos.  Star charts and stuff.
2) We know Saren doesn't have Sovereign at that point (or do we?  Sovereign winds up at the Citadel while this is going down.)  Either way it doesn't matter: the Geth can't detect the SR1.
3) 2 ifs. Keep em comin. [/quote]

1) This is brilliant. 'It's a planet!'. Very good. Did we honestly know it was going to be a ground mission? Saren could easily have been inside Sovereign in space at the time. As everyone is so quick to point out, your ME2 squad won't do **** in a space battle. I can't see the ME1 party doing much against a fleet of Geth.
2) When was this? Not until after arriving on Ilos does Saren make the jump to the Citadel. We had no idea what he and Sovereign were planning. This fulfills the definition of 'suicidal' or 'stupidity' as much as ME2. Take your pick.

[quote]
"Clearly they were necessary since the final mission required a ground team"?

Arguments after the fact, really?

You also could've passed through the relay and blew up into tiny pieces, colliding with space debris.  So glad the writers're [i]doing their job. [/quote]

Haha, face it man. All your criticisms can be applied to ME1. 'You could have reached Ilos, have Sovereign detect you, and blow you to tiny pieces.' Don't you just love plot holes?

You also obviously misunderstood my argument. You take issue with recruiting a specialist team. You say 'why'? I respond, it's better to be prepared for anything. I cite the suicide mission of ME2 as evidence of it always being better to be prepared. If you had no team, just taken Miranda, Jacob, and Mordin you would have *all* died-fact. There would not have been enough to get Shepard out alive. Hence preparation is good. Hence your argument against recruiting a team just died. I can cite many real life examples of the values of preparation if you would prefer. I am on a baseball team. I forgot to buy baseball cleats, a bat, and a glove. I do not perform up to par because of this. Next time, I know to prepare for baseball.

[quote]
No, no it really isn't!  If we learned that, that would be SOMETHING, regardless of what it was.  Personally I find caffeine rather deadly, and much more believable to hurting a genetically modified race, then shooting a massive Terminator embryo in its "Gooey toobs" when its armor plating magically turns on and off...

The team was NOT designed for every possible scenario.  This is clearly evidenced by EDI stating "we do not have sufficient ordinance on the Normandy to blow up doors."  They didn't bother getting a comabat engineer/zapper.  They didn't bother bring bombs?!  They didn't bother to upgrade Mordin's countermeasure to constitute massive swarms?! [/quote]

And this I would refer to what you so lovingly describe as a 'plot hole', along with Ashley/Kaidan not being captured and I am more skeptical about the idea that they do not have the ability to blow open the door than the idea they are not prepared. But again, this was a combat operation from the start. Whether in space, on the ground, or whatever the scenario was unclear. Biotics are useful in combat-bring them. Tech specialists are useful in combat-bring them. Your attempt at referencing caffeine is a straw man and a quite insulting one. You seem to be a very intelligent poster. Do you honestly need every tiny detail on the value of biotics, techs, etc both on and off your ship? I feel as if the need for both is self-explanatory.

[quote]
Except Ash/Kaidan actually talk about every plot point when you complete it, whereas Miranda/Jacob just talk about whatever.

Ashley has more motivation.

Miranda is following orders to bring Shepard back.
Miranda doesn't like humans disappearing.
Miranda has daddy/sister/genetic issues.
Miranda can't @#$@#$ die on some parts of the suicide mission because the developers screwed it up.
Ashley is following orders as a soldier.
Ashley has first hand experience of what happened to her and her unit on Eden Prime, and is proud to serve with Shepard.
Ashley is pissed off she's just a grunt and can't fight back with her rifle properly.
Ashley has a martyr complex about proving herself to the Alliance over her grandfather's image, and is willing to curb her xenophobia and accept aliens on the team.
Ashley will shoot Wrex for you.
Ashley will sacrifice herself for you on Virmire. [/quote]

So if I lay out a myriad of reasons on each party member and why they managed to fit you would accept it as being appropriate? If so, I have no qualms replaying ME2 and listing every possible character motivation, as you so graciously have done with Ashley.

[quote]
I admit the Conduit tie in was a bit weird, especially Saren's behavior if all he had to do was not be a dick the entire time and simply walk up to the Presidium whenever Sovereign wanted.  But the plot was about the mystery of the Conduit, and both Saren and Shepard had to find out what that was.

Porting to Ilos is several times more intelligent than going through the Omega-4 relay, for the various reasons I've listed before.
[/quote]

No, not 'weird'. Stupid. Saren having to find the conduit is not weird. Sovereign's point on doing this was so that he could sneak up on the citadel from the inside, cut off communications, and begin harvesting organics again. Approaching from the outside would have been pointless and likely led to the same result we got. I'm still waiting for a response as to why Shepard rushing after a fleet of ships is an intelligent move.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

[quote]JediPilot0 wrote...
But that's because audiences had never SEEN that type of storytelling before! I said before how Starwars was groundbreaking, which is why it's understandable that they didn't react well to ESB. Bioware seems like they want ME2 to be compared to ESB when ME2 fails to accomplish what even ESB did, even disregarding ROTJ.

ESB continued developing our characters and builds on what they were at the end of ANH. ME2 dumps all our accomplishments away and throws half our teamates into supporting roles. We see Wrex for a few minutes on Tuchancka and that's it. Same for Liara and Kaiden/Ahshely. [/quote]

And this is precisely why I liked the way ME2 handled it. It honestly hurt, waking up 2 years later, talking to my squad and thinking they would come back to help me. Ashley, Liara, Wrex, etc. Working with Miranda and Jacob on Ilos made me extremely nostalgic for my old party and if anything built my attachment to them, even if they didn't get much screen time. But what was interesting for me was taking these characters I once hated because they were different and eventually growing attached to them too. I don't just like Ashley and Wrex; I liked Miranda, Thane, Mordin, etc. and didn't want to see any of them die.

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
I didn't say I don't like the new characters, and I understand completely why the characters changed over 2 years of Shepard's ressurection. I'm saying it's a poor  way of telling a story. [/quote]

So this goes back to my earlier point that ME2 was doomed immediately because of the Shepard resurrection plot. Enough of my party was retained from ME1 to make me happy to know I wasn't alone, but it also hit home the fact that this wasn't 2 years ago. Things have changed. The fact that one possible love interest scenario involves you staring at a picture of your significant other from ME1 leads me to believe that they are prepping a huge come back for the third gamd.

[quote]
Please tell me what they were going to do with the Human Reaper, since you know.

And as I said before, we don't know what the Reapers do. "Reproduction" is a means to what end? These are machines, afterall. These machines were built by someone, somwhere. What for? Hard to beleive you'd build a machine with the end goal of just reproducing. [/quote]

Barring any reason to be otherwise, I would assume that a human reaper would fulfill the same function that previous reapers had. I would think its creation, as a result of humanity, would add a wonderful degree of irony to it and as I said, the Reapers strike me as the type who follow the 'take what makes my enemy strong' philosophy. TIM explains that they respect the fact that Shepard killed one and have become obsessed with humanity as a result. This all seemed pretty clear to me.

Some also think that the purpose of life is merely to 'reproduce'. To the question of what is the purpose of life, they respond it is self-fulfilling. The reapers might possibly be to this goal as well.

[quote
Bioware is never quite clear about what it's revealing to us. Even EDI is just speculating that it's "possible" this is how they reproduce. I'm not sure if all this guesswork is what Bioware intended to be answers. ME1 was clearer on this. [/quote]

I'm going to use an extremely popular example to illustrate why it's not always necessary to give many, if any actual knowledge about characters in a story.

Half-Life by Valve is an extremely popular video game franchise. One character, known as the G-man, is probably the best example of the point I am trying to get across. He wears a suit and tie and can always be seen carrying his briefcase and often appears in many out of reach locations to Gordon Freeman. It is implied that he is responsible for many events that take place in Half Life, Half Life 2, and both pieces of episodic content, both good and bad. And not *once* has his role been explained. His motivations, his species, loyalty, and full scope of his influence and abilities have all remain unseen. Yet none refer to him as being a 'bad plot mechanic'. He is a character of intrigue. I view the Reapers in much the same way. We know so little about them. Learning anything, even the most basic fact, is necessary to achieve victory.

[quote]
Whoa now.

You come up with your own string of logic (party members can only tie to main plot if collectors have a public face) and accuse me of being inconsitant? I never subscribed that string of logic in the first place!

Here's something I came up with in 10 seconds with ZERO effort: The collectors have been taking samples of many species for a while now. One of your squadmates had a parent/child/etc abducted. BOOM. Personal tie to collectors without the collectors needing a front man. And Bioware is better than me at storytelling. They could do something way more creative. Please don't put words in my mouth. [/quote]

Apologies for the implication, it was not intentional. But this also is the most cliche of plot points used for why a character will follow you. Bioware created 6 companions for ME1. Could you come up with 6 possible motivations for why they would all battle the Collectors, if they had reduced the number of total party members in ME2 to the same as the original. If not, the issue still stands that either the Collectors would also need a public face or they were doomed in their role as villains to start.

[quote]
I'm talking about their contributions while under my command. Obviously everyone was doing something when you recruit them (in both games). Wrex was taking down Fist and Garrus was doing something with the doctor, trying to find Tali to help him with his Saren investigation, btw. [/quote]

Honestly, I didn't feel any contributions once any were under command. I didn't feel obligated at one point or another to take any of them to do anything, except perhaps Liara on Noveria. Perhaps you mean in terms of plot development? Most Bioware games distinguish between two 'companions'. Main companions, whom your character coordinates with such as Bastila and Carth from Kotor, and side companions, whom you recruit and function as background characters such as Mission and HK-47. Kaidan/Ashley seem to fill the position of 'main' companions, the rest taking the back seat. Mordin/Jacob/Miranda seemed to fill this role in the second game as your advisors.
 
[quote]
But you wouldn't have been able to convince the council without Tali, would you? She already helped you out. [/quote]

But it's a thin plot point at best. Just as easily, I could have taken the information and ignored her. 'Surviving an encounter with Geth' never once played out in any significant fashion. I'm not saying the ME2 characters were the height of integration, it was tacky as well. But they were at least far more enjoyable.

[quote]
Which is why I also qustion what they are bringing to the table that no one else could. I could have replaced Thane with a generic soldier and handle the suicide mission exactly the same. His role never came into place. [/quote]

Again does Tali's role come into place? Does Garrus'? Or Wrex's? They could perform their function and move on. Liara is one of the few to truly play anything close to a necessary role.

[quote]
Ack, my fingers  

[/quote]

Almost there, man! Bioware will lock this threat sooner or later!

[mxfox408]

Akrylik wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

This is very superficial i know and it isn't something I would agree to if it had been the declared purpose of the entire game but you do get proof of the reapers. Now if Bioware hadn't made the council reject the reaper threat then proof wouldn't have been necessary, but it would still be useful in getting everyone on the same page.

Like I said though, extremely superficial.

im too lazy to go in depth with my OPs due to TLDRs, so instead i try to reinforce my arguement by responding to comments
well ME1 provided proof of the reapers to the point of, well, destroying one. And if stopping a genocidal force threatening the entire galaxy isn't the declared purpose of ME (at least for Shepard) i don't know what else it could possibly be, the reapers were indeed acknowledged in ME2 but no action was taken to actually stop them, only stop their ex-prothean slaves from helping them.

JediPilot0 wrote...

Timeline of progress in stopping Reapers:

ME1 Ending:                              ME2 Begins:                   ME2 Ending:
------------------------------------------                                     ----------->
    |                                                  |                                    |             |
                                                       |                                    |      
-Reapers are out there,                |                                    |             -Reapers are out there,
they are comming,                        |                                     |                  they are comming,
we have to stop them.                  |                                     |                   we have to stop them.
                                                       |                                     |
                                                       |                                     |
                                                        |                                    |
                                                         ---------------------------
                                                            -Introduce Collectors
                                                            -Stop Collectors.
                                                            -Stop a Human Reaper being built
                                                             for unknown purposes.


Learning things does not constitute plot advancement. Exposition is not plot advancement.

Man, I hope that timeline comes out right.

(SPOILER WARNING) well it wasnt just that, you forget if the human reaper reached 100% completion then it would have been a pain in the ass for the citidel to stop another reaper from taking control and opening the citidel relays allowing the reapers to flood in. Sheperd stopped that plan from even lifing off buying more time for the galaxy to prepare. you also forget all council races are rebuilding, the rachni are builing up the quarians idk whats up with them and the geth will also help. who did i leave out?

Modifié par mxfox408, 16 mars 2010 - 07:21 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

smudboy wrote...
When their goal is to create a cybernetic giant by smelting humans into some kind of bizarre magical-tube-in-robot ritual, yeah.  Kinda requires a full explanation at that point.
HOW would be a good start.
WHY would be essential.
WHAT they're trying to accomplish is good too.
And why the devil they chucked ME1's perfectly coherent setup.

This is crap a 6 year old comes up with.  But it doesn't even have the 6 year old explanation to go with it.

No, it really doesn't require full explanation. At least not now. Your obsession with explanations is ultimately what causes my issues with all your arguments. It seems very indicative of someone who needs everything explained in the fullest at that precise point in time and no other. A good story teller (not to say whether ME2 is or isn't a good story) does not cave to these types of demands. And to continue with your analogy, couldn't a 6 year old  probably be capable of making the inferences you seem unable to?

How-isn't this the most directly explained? By melting down humans, reapers are able to repurpose oranics as the material they use to create their ships.
Why-Because they want to create another Reaper, and further expand their fleet. It's also implied that they reserve this 'privilege' for the rare organic species which proves itself exceptional. Crafting a human reaper also gives a hint of irony.
What-They are accomplishing 'reproduction' essentially. Reapers must be made somehow.

In fact, the whole Harbinger taunting Shepard is completely childish.  Right.  Our genetic destiny is the super-big-gulp-genetic-slurry-graft?  We can't get any dialog with the guy.  He just pops up, spouts one linears, and we kill his avatar-minion.  What, with everything after David Caruso, dumbness comes?

THIS is the fearsome Reaper fleet?  These are the super-intelligent creatures whose motives are beyond our comprehension?
Oh and the hole pacing crap and why we pick up 11 people for no reason, that too.

Let's talk about childish and stupid plot points. Cyborg-Saren boss. For once in a video game, I thought Bioware had the balls to let you skip the final boss by causing him to kill himself! Through persuasion! But no, that's not good enough. We always have to have a final boss! So now Saren is brought back as a cyborg. Way to ruin a completely wonderful sequence with cyborgs.

[smudboy]

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Let's examine the situation here. You have just been brought back from the dead.  If not the very best, one of the most powerful ships in the Alliance fleet has just been utterly raped by a Collector Cruiser. The Council has decided to pretend there was no Reaper threat. You have no rank, no squad, or resources. Given this situation, are you really going to find yourself challenging your 'one' potential ally who actually seems to understand the full scope of what the Reapers can do?

Yes, Cerberus is 'inhuman'. Yes, they conduct experiments, etc. But the fact is they also support and believe you. They are also willing to supply you with whatever you need. They do not even force you to follow their own moral philosophy, allowing you to complete your objectives in whatever fashion you choose as long as results are obtained. And they did resurrect you. Now given this situation, are you honestly going to try telling me that for some stupid reason Shepard is supposed to throw a hissy fit and start yet another war in addition to dealing with the Reapers and Collectors?
[/quote]
No one is saying you shouldn't help the colonists from disappearing.

However, we should have the option of at least confronting TIM.  Conflict is good in stories, I hear.

Oh, but they're the only ones doing something about the colonists, with his grand plan of recruiting people for "something".  Let's go with that.
[quote]
Minor point but- Samara and Miranda-both also sitting down. Character animations extend beyond merely standing or sitting. What they say, when they say it, and the position they are in when it is said all have merit as well. When I have a conversation in ME2, it actually feels like I'm talking to another person, complete with tiny nuances of expression. ME1 only sounds like you're talking to another person. In this way, it failed spectacularly to break new ground. [/quote]
ME1 was the first of its kind, and you're saying it failed to break new grounds?  Okay then.
[quote]
No, she couldn't have. This is a point I repeat time and time again which you refuse to understand. Miranda lacks leadership. She is not just operating a dreadnaught. She must command an entire ship, all with people of different beliefs and opinions. She demonstrates the sterotypical Cerberus attitude (cold, calculating, unsympathetic) that makes her unable to persuade the various party members (Tali, Jack, etc) to follow her. This even extends to those under her direct command. Wilson refers to her as a cold-hearted **** and he was also Cerberus.
[/quote]
Miranda, Jacob and Garrus do not lack leadership.

Believe me, if you saved Tali, Garrus, and the rest, Miranda would have just as much influence as Shepard would (except maybe to Tali and Garrus.)  Why?  Because Shepard does barely anything to get them to join him/her.  It's a wild sham and you know it.

Shepard: "Come with me if you want to die."
Person: "Okay."
[quote]
Shepard is/was a living symbol. He has an insane amount of combat experience, a great deal of charisma, and knows how to get the job damn well done. TIM saw this in ME1. The reapers are also interested in him personally, not Miranda giving him a personal incentive to at least listen to TIM. Miranda is a great right hand, but she can never lead herself.
[/quote]
And as Miranda said, he's just one man.  I saw absolutely no use or reason how a living symbol influenced people to join him.

Shepard has 0 charisma as far as I can see.  Unless he magically has some P/R powers.

Miranda, Jacob and Garrus can lead just fine.

Miranda does make that speech stating she doesn't have what Shepard has, but I don't see how.
[quote]
And it seems you really want to devalue the ending of ME2. 'Makes the suggestion' as if it had no possible relevance in how things will play out. As if that didn't tell you that possibly everything TIM told you, about stopping the reapers, collectors, etc, might have been just so that he could get his hands on this item? We knew he couldn't be trusted. But this put him in an entirely different light. A rebellion against Cerberus as you suggested would be illogical for the reasons I explained.
[/quote]
Yet that's exactly what happened.  You can blow up the base, and boom, everyone on the ship, including the super-loyalist Miranda, is magically no longer with Cerberus.

I don't think I need to devalue the ending of ME2.  It does a really good job of doin that all by itself.
[quote]
Big rewards require big investments. TIM is not an idiot. If he could pull it off, resurrecting Shepard would be worth it to obtain the facility. In my file, his plan worked flawlessly. In others, it came tumbling down.
[/quote]
I think TIMs an idiot  A filthy rich crazy idiot.

Again, didn't need Shepard to obtain the Reaper Base.
[quote]
The point is that you're working to two different goals. 1. You [Shepard] recruit your team. 2. Illusive Man will track the Collectors and fill you in on necessary information. This is to combat your point that you should be 'gathering intel' before immediately rushing in. You also missed a point that Jacob makes quite early in the game. Cerberus is all about 'action', in one form or another. They do not sit around waiting for things to come to them, as the Council is doing with the Reaper threat. They mobilize.
[/quote]
And if you want to be effective in your action, you gather intel to know WTF is going on!  Then you plan!  This is not difficult to grasp!

This is the PLOT of the WHOLE DAMN THING, and it DOES NOT get developed AT ALL to that end.

Until you hit that Omega-4 relay, you HAVE NO IDEA, ant that's the END of the STORY.

The only goal is to "Fight the Collectors."  This is referred to as the Suicide Mission.  We know NOTHING about it till we actually GET THERE.  It's like a quest story, but you've NO CLUE what the quest is going to be about, what setting exactly, aside from some violence of some kind against something, somewhere.

I've given examples of other stories and movies where we KNOW the target by the TITLE of the story/movie.  The best is The Guns of Navarone.  In a sci-fi or fantasy world, we need to know wtf is going on in it.  We need description, insight, information, something.  Anything!

Oh, they were making a cybernetic giant.  FOR SOME REASON!

Fantastic.
[quote]
Sorry, but you actually do. No human on their own is going to be able to identify any technology of the Collectors. Simultaneously a VI can only function within its limited programming and context. An AI, which can think for itself and has access to much more knowledge/information *and* at a faster rate, is all you're going to have to fill that role. EDI makes this point clear when you ask her about her functions.
[/quote]
Shepard: "Hey Joker.  Doesn't that ship look like the Collector ship everyone's talking about?"
Joker: "Yeah, looks like those bastards that blew up my baby!"

[quote]
To your 'biotic specialist' point. It's not about what you need, but what you might need. I said it before. It's better to have the biotic and not need her, then need her and not have her. That's the mentality I got when recruiting my team. They each specialize in some sort of function. Did I know whether they would be put to the test? No. Did I at least understand it's always useful to have specialists to aid you? Hell yeah. Especially since Normandy SR-1 was so unprepared. The presence of even an AI like EDI could have turned the tide of that situation.
[/quote]
Then why didn't we get a zapper?  OH WAIT, we never thought of that.  Damn TIM.

You're comparing the preparedness of a ship to a bunch of people in that ship? 
[quote]
Listen to yourself. 'Camp the Omega IV relay'. Really? Against the Collectors, who were able to see through the Normandy's stealth systems, who have technology more advanced than even the Council, who've managed to keep anyone from crossing through the relay before that. Somehow, I think they would detect a mine field, someone camping the relay, or whatever other tactic you've suggested. It took all of TIM's resources to even track them to the extent he was able and this was over the course of 2 years. He has his suspicions, some facts, and many mysteries.
[/quote]
With all the money the Cerb's had, yeah, they can afford to sit in one place and wait for something to happen.  With lots of ships.

Unless there's some other way they get to whatever's past the Omega-4 relay, this is a simple, common idea.  It's called "watching."
[quote]
And I still would like a response to Shepard's excuse for carelessly chasing after Saren on Virmire. He had no knowledge of what he was going to find once arriving, whether a Geth fleet, a desolate planet or whatever. I'd call that 'no details'.
[/quote]
You're comparing Virmire to The Suicide Mission.  Have fun.
[quote]
1) This is brilliant. 'It's a planet!'. Very good. Did we honestly know it was going to be a ground mission? Saren could easily have been inside Sovereign in space at the time. As everyone is so quick to point out, your ME2 squad won't do **** in a space battle. I can't see the ME1 party doing much against a fleet of Geth.
2) When was this? Not until after arriving on Ilos does Saren make the jump to the Citadel. We had no idea what he and Sovereign were planning. This fulfills the definition of 'suicidal' or 'stupidity' as much as ME2. Take your pick.
[/quote]
1) Considering the conduit was on Ilos, they were going to go to Ilos.  Which is a planet.  By landing on Ilos.  Thus, making it a ground mission.
2) I'm not exactly sure how Saren got to the Citadel, but I think it was from the conduit.  Just throwing that out there.  Take your pick.
[quote]
Haha, face it man. All your criticisms can be applied to ME1. 'You could have reached Ilos, have Sovereign detect you, and blow you to tiny pieces.' Don't you just love plot holes?
[/quote]
Except Ilos had the conduit, and we knew Ilos was a planet.

The Suicide Mission is one big wtf.
[quote]
You also obviously misunderstood my argument. You take issue with recruiting a specialist team. You say 'why'? I respond, it's better to be prepared for anything. I cite the suicide mission of ME2 as evidence of it always being better to be prepared. If you had no team, just taken Miranda, Jacob, and Mordin you would have *all* died-fact. There would not have been enough to get Shepard out alive. Hence preparation is good. Hence your argument against recruiting a team just died. I can cite many real life examples of the values of preparation if you would prefer. I am on a baseball team. I forgot to buy baseball cleats, a bat, and a glove. I do not perform up to par because of this. Next time, I know to prepare for baseball.
[/quote]
Wonderful.  You see, baseball?  You know what it is. It's a game.  It involves players and equipment.

Compare that to "Fight the Collectors."  Are you going to play baseball?  If so, we can prepare.  See?  Nothing wrong with preparing to play baseball.  But we don't even know the rules of the game, let alone what game.

A ground war?  In Asia?  A space battle?  How about some environmental suits?  How about upgrading the stealth systems?  Where?  How about buying a really nice espresso machine?  How about etc. etc.  We don't @#$@#$@  know.  Fighting a space war by acquiring soldiers does not make sense.  This is a big issue.

Instead, the game by virtue of whatever the developers said would be, happens.  And lookie!  It involves some of the people be brought along, because we're doing some kind of infiltration mission.  Fantastic.

We need to know:
WHAT
WHO
WHERE
WHEN
HOW

And the setting and scale of all that.

Before we start recruiting people.  They did the basics of this for Mordin.  If they did this for EVERYONE, gave SOME reason WHY we needed these people, even if the end is the same, at least we would've had SOME KIND OF explanation.

Then we'd argue how stupid the people who recommended these people were.  Instead, all we have is TIM, the magical plot device.
[quote]
And this I would refer to what you so lovingly describe as a 'plot hole', along with Ashley/Kaidan not being captured and I am more skeptical about the idea that they do not have the ability to blow open the door than the idea they are not prepared. But again, this was a combat operation from the start. Whether in space, on the ground, or whatever the scenario was unclear. Biotics are useful in combat-bring them. Tech specialists are useful in combat-bring them. Your attempt at referencing caffeine is a straw man and a quite insulting one. You seem to be a very intelligent poster. Do you honestly need every tiny detail on the value of biotics, techs, etc both on and off your ship? I feel as if the need for both is self-explanatory.
[/quote]
No it's not a straw man.  It's an example of knowing what's going on.  At this point I want to know wtf is going on.  I really do.  Whether the Collectors weakness is bullets or oxygen, I don't care.  I want to know.  I want to know how to defeat my enemy.

That's the point of the story.

Your argument of taking a biotic or whatever is akin to simply packing the ship with as many nukes as possible.  I can assure you, if you want someone dead, a nuclear device is going to be very effective, more than a biotic or whatever for a supposed ground mission.

Especially when you can DETONATE the ground from orbit.
[quote]
So if I lay out a myriad of reasons on each party member and why they managed to fit you would accept it as being appropriate? If so, I have no qualms replaying ME2 and listing every possible character motivation, as you so graciously have done with Ashley.
[/quote]
Good luck on that.  The ME2 characters barely have any, if no motivation, to stop the Collectors.
[quote]
No, not 'weird'. Stupid. Saren having to find the conduit is not weird. Sovereign's point on doing this was so that he could sneak up on the citadel from the inside, cut off communications, and begin harvesting organics again. Approaching from the outside would have been pointless and likely led to the same result we got. I'm still waiting for a response as to why Shepard rushing after a fleet of ships is an intelligent move. [/quote]
[/quote]
No, the Terminator is stupid.  Illogical, unreasonable, unexplained, etc.

The Conduit was a dying race's desperate attempt to break a cycle of destruction by hoping someone would come by and find it.

So if the conduit is stupid, all that you said Saren and Sovereign doing above makes them stupid?  Comparing the unknown of the Conduit to the entire plot of ME2 isn't helpful:

Finding the Conduit
WHERE: the planet Ilos.  The ruins on said planet
WHAT: Some unknown Prothean device
HOW: Drop in the MAKO, possibly land on the planet with the SR1
WHO: unknown
BARRIER to entry: possibly Sovereign, possibly a fleet of Geth ships, possibly a ground team of Geth and Saren.  They can't detect the SR1, so we should be okay getting there.
Because it's an unknown: we simply have to go there and explore

Fight the Collectors
WHERE unknown, past the Omega-4 Relay, a ship flying around the Terminus systems
WHAT unknown
HOW unknown, possibly a space ship battle, looks like a troop deployment
WHO unknown, possibly those on the ship, past the Omega-4 relay, no idea.
BARRIER to entry: IFF.  Collectors can sense us regardless of cloak.
Because it's an unknown: we spend the entire time finding random people because they may be helpful in Fighting the Collectors, somehow

With the Conduit, we know generally where it is (a planet) and how we're going to get there, and the ruins therein.
In Fighting the Collectors, we don't where the Omega-4 relay will take us, or what's beyond it.

With the Conduit, we know how we're going to find it: on the planet, in the ruins.
In Fighting the Collectors, we don't know how we're going to do so, whether a space battle or ground battle.

I mean it's just pointless.  No military commander throws everything they have to go "over that hill" without properly scouting the area.

[smudboy]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
No, it really doesn't require full explanation. At least not now. Your obsession with explanations is ultimately what causes my issues with all your arguments. It seems very indicative of someone who needs everything explained in the fullest at that precise point in time and no other. A good story teller (not to say whether ME2 is or isn't a good story) does not cave to these types of demands. And to continue with your analogy, couldn't a 6 year old  probably be capable of making the inferences you seem unable to?

When the whole point of a story is to do X, and it happens, by sheer force of driving the plot, then the writer has failed.

Clarity is the number one quality in any story telling.  I need to know what's going on in an alien world, with aliens, who are doing alien things with alien motives that my little untold human brain can't comprehend.  Great, they're building a cybernetic robot.  How?  Why?

I don't need everything explained.  But remember, this story is clearly a hack.  Without explaining the goal and details of the entire journey, without explaining why the bad guys did what they did, it's clear the writer was second seat to level designer.

How-isn't this the most directly explained? By melting down humans, reapers are able to repurpose oranics as the material they use to create their ships.
Why-Because they want to create another Reaper, and further expand their fleet. It's also implied that they reserve this 'privilege' for the rare organic species which proves itself exceptional. Crafting a human reaper also gives a hint of irony.
What-They are accomplishing 'reproduction' essentially. Reapers must be made somehow.

So what about ME1?  The whole 1) teleport into the Citadel, 2) win!  What, was that plan scrapped?  Was there a backup?  Now the evil plot is to harvest humans to make more Reapers?  Why?  Why go through this completely unnecessary and inefficient process?  Why wouldn't plan B be to port into some other area of space, and then go to the Citadel, and then start the whole cycle of destruction?  Then they could make all the Reapers they want, have nice little tea parties, etc.

Let alone HOW you combine or graft human goo into a metal giant.  If they need genetics, why do we have to melt people down?  Seriously, htf does human goo combine into cyborg-Reaper?  This makes the Matrix plot look like a work of genius.

So ME2 doesn't help ME1 at all.  It tries to forget it ever existed by telling us Reapers are cybernetics.  Wow.  Great segue.  AT THE END of the story.  If we learned this at the start, we'd have time to learn how and why they're doing this, instead of Shepard just throwing bullets at anything Reaper related.  'cause that's what he/she's been reduced to.

Let's talk about childish and stupid plot points. Cyborg-Saren boss. For once in a video game, I thought Bioware had the balls to let you skip the final boss by causing him to kill himself! Through persuasion! But no, that's not good enough. We always have to have a final boss! So now Saren is brought back as a cyborg. Way to ruin a completely wonderful sequence with cyborgs.

3 words:

Terminator baby reaper.

[TyDurden13]

This thread has passed the absurdity event horizon, and is disappearing up its own exhaust port. Trees, meet forest.



Seriously, it is a pretty damn simple equation. ME1 introduced the universe and the reaper threat. ME2 fleshed out that universe (via the "utterly pointless characters and vignettes" around the galaxy) and revealed the reaper MO (why they need organics and propagate the extinction cycle, etc), and sets up a sort of cliffhanger for the start of the final chapter.



Yes, I thought the final boss was a little silly too, and I'm sure there are some plot holes (although misunderstanding of what comprises a plot hole seems fairly common around here), but these flaws are nothing universe-breaking and it don't invalidate the entire plot.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
No one is saying you shouldn't help the colonists from disappearing.

However, we should have the option of at least confronting TIM.  Conflict is good in stories, I hear.

Oh, but they're the only ones doing something about the colonists, with his grand plan of recruiting people for "something".  Let's go with that. [/quote]

Oh and this is your response? 'We should at least have the option of confronting TIM'. I listed a whole bunch of reasons why, which apply to both paragon and renegade, why it would just be the height of stupidity to begin raising hell when Shepard not even being asked to do anything controversial. 'Investigate this colony'. 'Recruit person X'.

In debate, it's usually good form to follow a style. You say 'A'. I reply 'B, not A'. You do not get your point across by repeating 'A'.

It's your job to replay why it would have made sense for TIM to start a conflict, not restate your position. Your association of conflict+story fails when the reason for conflict in the first place is lacking. You also suggested 'rebellion'. That's asking for a tad more than conflict.

[quote]
ME1 was the first of its kind, and you're saying it failed to break new grounds?  Okay then. [/quote]

Wow, this made me laugh. Hysterically. It was the first in the ME series, no more. I've beaten Kotor 17 times, Jade Empire 7, ME3, and ME2 1. And Dragon Age/Neverwinter Nights once each. Let me explain to you the *basic* outline of every Bioware story.

Beginning-->Introduction to world you will interact with/important party members--Some tragic event or reason for why your party goes on their mission-->Sequence where main character is given a variety of objectives and able to complete in whatever order he chooses-->Ending sequence where some entirely unexpected plot twist occurs, changing the way the world is perceieved.

All always seem to involve you acquiring some 'ship'. All also seem to involve a world where you seem to think things work one way and find out another. Saren being controlled by Sovereign is a complete rehash of Death's Hand being controlled by the Emperor in Jade Empire. So you're 'precious' writers aren't exactly original.

ME is an *exact* copy of Kotor in this regard in the exact same way. Jade Empire attempts to hide the formula a bit by presenting it in a more linear fashion. And ME2 attempts to break up the objectives section by dividing the game into 'acts'. I say again, the only thing ME added that was ground-breaking was voice acting to its RPG, which has caused some controversy. ME2, by adding realistic character functions, will impact the way all RPGS are handled in the future. So yes, ME2 is more ground-breaking than the original.

[quote]
Miranda, Jacob and Garrus do not lack leadership.

Believe me, if you saved Tali, Garrus, and the rest, Miranda would have just as much influence as Shepard would (except maybe to Tali and Garrus.)  Why?  Because Shepard does barely anything to get them to join him/her.  It's a wild sham and you know it. [/quote]

No, repeating the phrase 'you know it' isn't going to make me believe you any more than my attempts at explaining the weakness of the Conduit.

I almost feel like we were playing two different games. The layout between what you do in ME1/ME2 all indicate Shepard's role as being exceptional. You seem to equate 'being a good little party member' with having leadership. It's not the same. Garrus, who had disappeared under the identity of Archangel, was known to be a good sniper and tactician. There was no absolute indication of his leadership abilities at the time of his recruitment beyond 'having a team fighting mercs'. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what makes Jacob so bloody special. If you had not been there, Tali, possibly Garrus, Jack, and Samara would probably have never joined you. Be it Miranda or Jacob, most people hate Cerberus on *principle* as you've mentioned.

[quote]
Shepard has 0 charisma as far as I can see.  Unless he magically has some P/R powers.

Miranda, Jacob and Garrus can lead just fine. [/quote]

Then maybe you should buy a pair of glasses.

What you attempt to say shows a complete lack of understanding of charisma. If you want to get a really good explanation, I recommend reading the Prince or playing Kotor 2 dark side, listening to Kreia's speeches.

Miranda acts how a follower acts. She gets into petty arguments with those under her, she's overly loyal to her boss, and is unable to understand those around her. I can provide an instance of each of these.

1. Her argument with Jack was essentially a cat fight.
2. When asked if she will follow your orders, she reaffirms her dedication to TIM and Cerberus' goals.
3. When dealing with Tali, she replies that the Cerberus attack on her base was merely 'nothing personal'.

Her own people in the Lazarus project don't even like her. When loyal, they were only so because TIM commanded it. Shepard represents many things to many people. He is an excellent combat strategist. He's not the one getting into petty scraps over 'Cerberus did this'. If you notice, between both games he makes several speeches, something Miranda probably couldn't do. He is the 'height' of combat effective in taking down Saren/Sovereign. How does this not indicate to you he is superior to Miranda in multiple functions?

[quote]
Yet that's exactly what happened.  You can blow up the base, and boom, everyone on the ship, including the super-loyalist Miranda, is magically no longer with Cerberus.

I don't think I need to devalue the ending of ME2.  It does a really good job of doin that all by itself. [/quote]

No, I think you do, because I enjoyed it and thought it fulfilled its role as the 'dark sequel'. ME3 has been set up beautifully.

[quote]
I think TIMs an idiot  A filthy rich crazy idiot.

Again, didn't need Shepard to obtain the Reaper Base. [/quote]

Didn't need Shepard to become a Spectre. Could've used anyone. Hell, if the Council wanted to be dicks they could have used a loop hole and made Garrus, a Turian, the Spectre since he aided the investigation. CONFLICT IS GOOD IN PLOTS I HEAR!

[quote]
And if you want to be effective in your action, you gather intel to know WTF is going on!  Then you plan!  This is not difficult to grasp!

This is the PLOT of the WHOLE DAMN THING, and it DOES NOT get developed AT ALL to that end.

Until you hit that Omega-4 relay, you HAVE NO IDEA, ant that's the END of the STORY.

The only goal is to "Fight the Collectors."  This is referred to as the Suicide Mission.  We know NOTHING about it till we actually GET THERE.  It's like a quest story, but you've NO CLUE what the quest is going to be about, what setting exactly, aside from some violence of some kind against something, somewhere.

I've given examples of other stories and movies where we KNOW the target by the TITLE of the story/movie.  The best is The Guns of Navarone.  In a sci-fi or fantasy world, we need to know wtf is going on in it.  We need description, insight, information, something.  Anything!

Oh, they were making a cybernetic giant.  FOR SOME REASON! [/quote]

Shepard killed a reaper. Collectors begin targeting humans for...collecting. TIM explains this is a result of you killing the Reapers which they 'respect' as a strong enemy. They choose to use your kind to create another Reaper, adding irony and another monster to fuel their ranks. Reapers harvest organics every 10k years. Whether its to create more reapers or if they reserve that privilege for special races, we don't know.

And since you're big on explanations. Why the reapers harvest organics is a hole that ME1 refused to fill.

[quote]
Shepard: "Hey Joker.  Doesn't that ship look like the Collector ship everyone's talking about?"
Joker: "Yeah, looks like those bastards that blew up my baby!" [/quote]

Bad counter-argument is bad. Do you even know what AIs do by design? Do you know why they are so controversial? Do you also know why they are so useful? Do you understand what the Collectors are doing? These are all questions you're making me wonder. Joker and a VI can only infer so much based on what they have from dealing with Council Space. EDI by design retains much more knowledge at a faster rate than any human could do. I fail to understand why this is rocket science for you.

[quote]
Then why didn't we get a zapper?  OH WAIT, we never thought of that.  Damn TIM.
You're comparing the preparedness of a ship to a bunch of people in that ship?   [/quote]

Aww, cute, another strawman! You disappoint me.

Crappy ship-Well, if it calls for a space battle, you're ****ed.
Crappy ground team-Well, if it calls for a ground team, you're ****ed.

See? Now you understand why it's good to be prepared. A ground team should handle anything. They went in fast and hard. Suicide Mission was short, sweet, and to the point which is a wonderful variation on your typical Bioware ending.

[quote]
Unless there's some other way they get to whatever's past the Omega-4 relay, this is a simple, common idea.  It's called "watching." [/quote]

You're really reaching now, aren't you? Collectors possess technology several times more powerful than anything that the Galaxy has ever seen. Your complaint seems to be why TIM didn't explain to you in paragraph form why he didn't try every other option. I was under the impression that Cerberus likes to maintain a low profile. Either they prep enough ships to deal with the Collector Cruiser, attracting great attention, or they have such a small presence that they will be obliterated. That's really the situation. Camping the Omega IV relay fails as a strategy.

[quote]
You're comparing Virmire to The Suicide Mission.  Have fun. [/quote]

I meant to say 'Ilos' and I'm still waiting on this ground breaking revelation.

[quote]
Except Ilos had the conduit, and we knew Ilos was a planet.

The Suicide Mission is one big wtf. [/quote]

OH. I see. Ilos had the Conduit. Okay, this all makes sense now. So Ilos is a planet, it has the Conduit, and.... somewhere in the middle of that you forgot to mention why this accounts for Shepard walking into a possible massive fleet of Geth +Sovereign. I see now knowing that Ilos was 'a planet' was so instrumental in accounting for all Shepard could have dealt with. Thank you for explaining that for me. It really isn't any more info than knowing that the Collectors 'have a base' past the Omega IV relay.

[quote]
Wonderful.  You see, baseball?  You know what it is. It's a game.  It involves players and equipment.

Compare that to "Fight the Collectors."  Are you going to play baseball?  If so, we can prepare.  See?  Nothing wrong with preparing to play baseball.  But we don't even know the rules of the game, let alone what game.

A ground war?  In Asia?  A space battle?  How about some environmental suits?  How about upgrading the stealth systems?  Where?  How about buying a really nice espresso machine?  How about etc. etc.  We don't @#$@#$@  know.  Fighting a space war by acquiring soldiers does not make sense.  This is a big issue.

Instead, the game by virtue of whatever the developers said would be, happens.  And lookie!  It involves some of the people be brought along, because we're doing some kind of infiltration mission.  Fantastic. [/quote]

Ah, see, you would be correct if you hadn't said 'Fight the Collectors'. The second that you described combat as what we were preparing for, your argument died. 'Rules of the game'. Kill the Collectors, do whatever it takes. It's not hard. A massive spaceship, a biotic specialist, an AI. These to me seem to be all tools that could potentially fall under 'combat' or war. Do we know any specific parameters? No. Is it likely that we would have received ground-breaking revelations in the near future? Again no. I'm also curious, we know/knew so little about the Reapers. If they had been the primary threat in ME2, what exactly would your excuse be for any of our preparations? We don't 'know' what they are or capable of. PLOT HOLE.  

Your argument also takes a different false turn, which I could again cite Ilos as example. The suicide mission was 'by virtue whatever the developers said would be'. You also complain that all your party members are never put to use. This is why you say 'why need a biotic specialist'? If they had designed the suicide mission to account for every tool, that would be the very definition of tailoring. You brought a diverse team of specialists. Some played a role, some didn't. Because you were prepared.


[quote]
Then we'd argue how stupid the people who recommended these people were.  Instead, all we have is TIM, the magical plot device. [/quote]

I thought it was pretty clear that he was meant to fill the role of the wily space tycoon that you often find it stories? You know, almost like how the Rachni were a rip off of Xenomorphs from Alien...

[quote]
No it's not a straw man.  It's an example of knowing what's going on.  At this point I want to know wtf is going on.  I really do.  Whether the Collectors weakness is bullets or oxygen, I don't care.  I want to know.  I want to know how to defeat my enemy.

That's the point of the story.

Your argument of taking a biotic or whatever is akin to simply packing the ship with as many nukes as possible.  I can assure you, if you want someone dead, a nuclear device is going to be very effective, more than a biotic or whatever for a supposed ground mission.

Especially when you can DETONATE the ground from orbit. [/quote]

I want to know why the Reapers harvest Organics. I'm told that organic species can't understand. I want to know.

You also demonstrate a lack of knowledge on consequences. Biotics are much more refined than a nuke. Every tool you utilize has a series of cost/effect benefits that must be analyzed before taking an action. If you clearly need a ground team, a nuke is not going to do the job. If you need a biotic, which has a very different function/purpose, a nuke won't do that either and vice versa. Yes, you can argue 'why bring 5 nukes and not 6'? But to me this comes down to needless nitpicking. Why didn't the Council make Garrus a Spectre? Why haven't they tracked down Cerberus based on its reputation? You can find questions and plot issues in any plot if you look hard enough. I accepted the parameters of ME2 and enjoyed it for the most part.

[quote]
Good luck on that.  The ME2 characters barely have any, if no motivation, to stop the Collectors. [/quote]

Udina: BRING TALI! She survived the Geth...once. She's a Quarian! May be useful.

I'm still waiting on that Geth utility.

[quote]
No, the Terminator is stupid.  Illogical, unreasonable, unexplained, etc.

The Conduit was a dying race's desperate attempt to break a cycle of destruction by hoping someone would come by and find it.

So if the conduit is stupid, all that you said Saren and Sovereign doing above makes them stupid?  Comparing the unknown of the Conduit to the entire plot of ME2 isn't helpful: [/quote]

No, the 'terminator' is pretty well explained and no less stupid than the xenomorphs (Rachni).

And reading comprehension for the win. Saren and Sovereign finding the conduit is not stupid. Don't you understand this? It's not the Conduit that's unknown. It's everything else. 'Okay, we know the conduit is on Ilos We also know Saren might possibly be present along with a fleet of Geth and a massive flagship.' The explanation I want from you now is not why the conduit is important. I understand that, probably moreso than you. What I want to know is why Shepard walking into a possible ambush, with but a single ship' demonstrates an intelligent move. Sovereign and the fleet could easily have blown his ship to hell.  How does this make ME1 an improvement over ME2?

[quote]
With the Conduit, we know generally where it is (a planet) and how we're going to get there, and the ruins therein.
In Fighting the Collectors, we don't where the Omega-4 relay will take us, or what's beyond it.

With the Conduit, we know how we're going to find it: on the planet, in the ruins.
In Fighting the Collectors, we don't know how we're going to do so, whether a space battle or ground battle.

I mean it's just pointless.  No military commander throws everything they have to go "over that hill" without properly scouting the area.
[/quote]

Well, as for destination there will only be ever 2 possibilites. Either space battle occurs, in which case we have the most powerful ship ever created, or ground battle occurs, in which you have a diverse group of specialists to call on. Again 'in the planet' is not a step up when you don't know how much resistance you will find on that planet. If your definition of preparation and knowledge is no more than space battle versus ground battle, we still didn't know the answer. If you have to fight the Geth in space, then go with a ground team, clearly you need both. Please keep reaching.

[smudboy]

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Oh and this is your response? 'We should at least have the option of confronting TIM'. I listed a whole bunch of reasons why, which apply to both paragon and renegade, why it would just be the height of stupidity to begin raising hell when Shepard not even being asked to do anything controversial. 'Investigate this colony'. 'Recruit person X'.

In debate, it's usually good form to follow a style. You say 'A'. I reply 'B, not A'. You do not get your point across by repeating 'A'.

It's your job to replay why it would have made sense for TIM to start a conflict, not restate your position. Your association of conflict+story fails when the reason for conflict in the first place is lacking. You also suggested 'rebellion'. That's asking for a tad more than conflict.
[/quote]
Screw your style.  I know what I'm talking about.

We learn in ME1 Cerberus is pure evil.  In ME2 they're doing something about saving colonists. (They also can resurrect the dead and build a ship for said resurrectee.)  So, what, we just forget about what we've been told about events in ME1?  No story telling?  No exposition, no outbursts, no arguments, no confrontation?  The best we get is Shepard talking to Miranda.

Rebellion would still be conflict.  It would make sense for both P and R Shepard.

Instead, we're railroaded to do whatever TIM says.
[quote]
[quote]
ME1 was the first of its kind, and you're saying it failed to break new grounds?  Okay then. [/quote]

Wow, this made me laugh. Hysterically.
blahblahblah some stuff
[/quote]
I'm referring to the talking heads.  Maybe that wasn't clear.
[quote]
No, repeating the phrase 'you know it' isn't going to make me believe you any more than my attempts at explaining the weakness of the Conduit.

I almost feel like we were playing two different games. The layout between what you do in ME1/ME2 all indicate Shepard's role as being exceptional. You seem to equate 'being a good little party member' with having leadership. It's not the same. Garrus, who had disappeared under the identity of Archangel, was known to be a good sniper and tactician. There was no absolute indication of his leadership abilities at the time of his recruitment beyond 'having a team fighting mercs'. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what makes Jacob so bloody special. If you had not been there, Tali, possibly Garrus, Jack, and Samara would probably have never joined you. Be it Miranda or Jacob, most people hate Cerberus on *principle* as you've mentioned.
[/quote]
Okay so in ME1, Shepard is exceptional.  In ME2 he dies.

Garrus commanded a team of 10.  One of them betrayed him.  Jacob is a loyal and skilled Lieutenant on Lazarus and security.  Miranda is a genetically superior leader who was in charge of Lazarus.  (One of her upgrades is Cerberus Leader.)

All of these people are alive, save Shepard.

Oh and the fact they all successfully fill the fire team leader roles in the Suicide Mission successfully.

So this master plan is to resurrect a dead man.  Ah huh.

Garrus would've joined after you patched him up.  Samara would've joined because "I am humbled."  Jack would've joined kicking and screaming.  Tali would've been thankful for being saved, but I'm not so sure about her joining.
[quote]
Miranda acts how a follower acts. She gets into petty arguments with those under her, she's overly loyal to her boss, and is unable to understand those around her. I can provide an instance of each of these.

1. Her argument with Jack was essentially a cat fight.
[/quote]
So leaders can't argue with others, when they're in second command, about something they're passionate about?
[quote]
2. When asked if she will follow your orders, she reaffirms her dedication to TIM and Cerberus' goals.
[/quote]
She follows them anyway.
[quote]
3. When dealing with Tali, she replies that the Cerberus attack on her base was merely 'nothing personal'.
[/quote]
Sounds pretty professional to me.
[quote]
Her own people in the Lazarus project don't even like her. When loyal, they were only so because TIM commanded it. Shepard represents many things to many people. He is an excellent combat strategist. He's not the one getting into petty scraps over 'Cerberus did this'. If you notice, between both games he makes several speeches, something Miranda probably couldn't do. He is the 'height' of combat effective in taking down Saren/Sovereign. How does this not indicate to you he is superior to Miranda in multiple functions?
[/quote]
Then why was Jack in Miranda's quarters?  Miranda: "I can put aside my differences until the missions over."  Seems professional to me.  Seems Jack had the problem, not Miranda.

Shepard made one awesome speech when he first becomes a Spectre.  I can barely recall the two he made in the Suicide Mission.

He's not superior 'cause he died.  2 years of resurrecting Zombie Shepard is hardly a brilliant plan to "get leadership skills" "for a bloody icon" when we already have them.
[quote]
No, I think you do, because I enjoyed it and thought it fulfilled its role as the 'dark sequel'. ME3 has been set up beautifully.
[/quote]
Explain how ME3 has been setup beautifully.
[quote]
Didn't need Shepard to become a Spectre. Could've used anyone. Hell, if the Council wanted to be dicks they could have used a loop hole and made Garrus, a Turian, the Spectre since he aided the investigation. CONFLICT IS GOOD IN PLOTS I HEAR!
[/quote]
You're right.  We didn't need Shepard to become a Spectre.
[quote]
Shepard killed a reaper. Collectors begin targeting humans for...collecting. TIM explains this is a result of you killing the Reapers which they 'respect' as a strong enemy. They choose to use your kind to create another Reaper, adding irony and another monster to fuel their ranks. Reapers harvest organics every 10k years. Whether its to create more reapers or if they reserve that privilege for special races, we don't know.

And since you're big on explanations. Why the reapers harvest organics is a hole that ME1 refused to fill.
[/quote]
1) Shepard's dead.
2) We don't know they used humans to create a Reaper.
3) Yes, the several decade long slow process of stealing millions of humans to somehow create a human reaper.  Brilliant plan super-intelligent MACHINES that are now cyboarg came up with.
4) Yes, the entire plot of ME2 is one giant "wat".

[quote]
Bad counter-argument is bad. Do you even know what AIs do by design? Do you know why they are so controversial? Do you also know why they are so useful? Do you understand what the Collectors are doing? These are all questions you're making me wonder. Joker and a VI can only infer so much based on what they have from dealing with Council Space. EDI by design retains much more knowledge at a faster rate than any human could do. I fail to understand why this is rocket science for you.
[/quote]
Lame 4chan speak is stupid.
Do you?
Yes.
Yes.
NO.
You said identify a ship.  My apologies if I didn't understand this entire line of reasoning after you wrote all that other explanative crap.
[quote]
Aww, cute, another strawman! You disappoint me.
[/quote]
I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS.
[quote]
Crappy ship-Well, if it calls for a space battle, you're ****ed.
Crappy ground team-Well, if it calls for a ground team, you're ****ed.
[/quote]
Wait, wait.  Space battle.  Why need a ground battle?  We've got a space ship.  Oh right, unknown.  Right.
[quote]
See? Now you understand why it's good to be prepared. A ground team should handle anything. They went in fast and hard. Suicide Mission was short, sweet, and to the point which is a wonderful variation on your typical Bioware ending.
[/quote]
See? Now you understand why it's good to get nukes.  A nuke should handle everything.  It's like a missile that goes in fast and REALLY hard.  Suicide Mission would've been short, sweet, and to the EXPLOSIVE point which is a wonderful variation on your typical line of reasoning.
[quote]
You're really reaching now, aren't you? Collectors possess technology several times more powerful than anything that the Galaxy has ever seen. Your complaint seems to be why TIM didn't explain to you in paragraph form why he didn't try every other option. I was under the impression that Cerberus likes to maintain a low profile. Either they prep enough ships to deal with the Collector Cruiser, attracting great attention, or they have such a small presence that they will be obliterated. That's really the situation. Camping the Omega IV relay fails as a strategy.
[/quote]
If by reaching you mean common sense.  What, you don't watch things?  Like a door where your enemy might enter from?

So what if they possess technology?

If Cerberus likes to maintain a low profile, why are they putting their logo all over the SR2, your uniforms, the various bases they have throughout the galaxy?  Mind you I think it's stupid too,  but hey, this is a hack story.

How is camping the Omega-4 relay a bad strategy?  Do you know how the Collectors get back to ..wherever they come from?  I think it's the Omega-4 relay.  Just throwing that out there.  What, a spy satellite or prob is a bad idea?  Gathering intel in ANY shape or form, that's relatively safe, much safer than GOING through the relay, a failed strategy?  Really?
[quote]
I meant to say 'Ilos' and I'm still waiting on this ground breaking revelation.
[/quote]
Oh okay.  To what?
[quote]
OH. I see. Ilos had the Conduit. Okay, this all makes sense now. So Ilos is a planet, it has the Conduit, and.... somewhere in the middle of that you forgot to mention why this accounts for Shepard walking into a possible massive fleet of Geth +Sovereign. I see now knowing that Ilos was 'a planet' was so instrumental in accounting for all Shepard could have dealt with. Thank you for explaining that for me. It really isn't any more info than knowing that the Collectors 'have a base' past the Omega IV relay.
[/quote]
I already exaplined it.  I'll try again.  In point form.  For the super genius you are.

1) We know Ilos is a planet at a certain place in a certain star system.
1a) On Ilos are some Prothean ruins.
1b) In those ruins is something called the Conduit that the Protheans were using to stop the Reapers, somehow.

Compare that to (which I hate doing, but since you made the effort)

1) We don't know what's beyond the Omega-4 relay
2) We know the Collectors have a massive ship.

The goal of ME1 was to get/discover to the conduit.
The  goal of ME2 was to Fight the Collectors.

If it were to just blow up their ship, that'd be good.  But it's not that.

If you can't see what plot is more clear, we're done.
[quote]
Ah, see, you would be correct if you hadn't said 'Fight the Collectors'. The second that you described combat as what we were preparing for, your argument died. 'Rules of the game'. Kill the Collectors, do whatever it takes. It's not hard. A massive spaceship, a biotic specialist, an AI. These to me seem to be all tools that could potentially fall under 'combat' or war. Do we know any specific parameters? No. Is it likely that we would have received ground-breaking revelations in the near future? Again no. I'm also curious, we know/knew so little about the Reapers. If they had been the primary threat in ME2, what exactly would your excuse be for any of our preparations? We don't 'know' what they are or capable of. PLOT HOLE.  
[/quote]
Um, that's the plot?  Whether I use the word attack, fight, etc., makes no difference.

The problem is still 1) what kind of fight, 2) how we're going to fight, 3) where exacty, 4) what exactly, 5) scope of all this, etc.

Being prepared for the unknown is a really bad, ignorant, ambiguous statement.  We understand the spaceship angle (Collectors have a cruiser.)  We don't understand the "get 11 combat specialists people."

Again, 1) if we were told WHY we needed these specific people and , 2) what our mission was exactly, this wouldn't be an issue.  But it's a glaring, hueg problem.  And no amount of your explanations can fill this.
[quote]
Your argument also takes a different false turn, which I could again cite Ilos as example. The suicide mission was 'by virtue whatever the developers said would be'. You also complain that all your party members are never put to use. This is why you say 'why need a biotic specialist'? If they had designed the suicide mission to account for every tool, that would be the very definition of tailoring. You brought a diverse team of specialists. Some played a role, some didn't. Because you were prepared.
[/quote]
A different false turn?  We knew that Ilos was going to be a ground mission.

We didn't know what was past the Omega-4 relay, aside from that Collector cruiser. There is no justification for having these 11 specialists on board.  The writers magically showed us "okay, you're passed the omega-4 relay, time to turn the page and start the point to point defense battle that never happens because we need the enemy to put holes in the ship, and fight a giant floating eye."

Your argument is we have them because we're to be prepared.
I argue we don't know that this is viable because we don't know what we're prepared for.
You say we're prepared for anything (space and ground.)
I say we're clearly not, since we never got a zapper which EDI reminded us of, we never got nukes, etc.
You say we couldn't know what we needed because it's an unknown, so it's best to be prepared just because.
I say if it's unknown, why not make it known.  Camping a relay, comm buoy, etc.
You say camping a relay is bad strategy.

Listen, we need info.  It's obvious.  It never happens.  The story fails.
[quote]
I thought it was pretty clear that he was meant to fill the role of the wily space tycoon that you often find it stories? You know, almost like how the Rachni were a rip off of Xenomorphs from Alien...
[/quote]
See I thought he was the brutal pro-human wing of the Alliance that will do whatever it takes to accomplish a goal.

Shepard just didn't seem to care one way or the other.
[quote]
I want to know why the Reapers harvest Organics. I'm told that organic species can't understand. I want to know.

You also demonstrate a lack of knowledge on consequences. Biotics are much more refined than a nuke. Every tool you utilize has a series of cost/effect benefits that must be analyzed before taking an action. If you clearly need a ground team, a nuke is not going to do the job. If you need a biotic, which has a very different function/purpose, a nuke won't do that either and vice versa. Yes, you can argue 'why bring 5 nukes and not 6'? But to me this comes down to needless nitpicking. Why didn't the Council make Garrus a Spectre? Why haven't they tracked down Cerberus based on its reputation? You can find questions and plot issues in any plot if you look hard enough. I accepted the parameters of ME2 and enjoyed it for the most part.
[/quote]
**** my knowledge and refinement.  Nukes are much more effective than a biotic.  You also don't have to argue with them.  Or use Shepard's legenday influencial-leadership skills to come on a suicide mission.  With the money and project TIM's throwing around, nukes would be easy.

A nuke will do the job.  Hell a bomb will do a job a ground team can.  That's why they're called bombs: they go boom.  Usually things around them do, too.

It's not needless nitpicking, if we pick up a massive team whose utility is unknown.

How do you properly assess your odds of success of something you have nothing to assess?

But don't worry.  You've got 11 people with you.
[quote]
Udina: BRING TALI! She survived the Geth...once. She's a Quarian! May be useful.

I'm still waiting on that Geth utility.
[/quote]
?
[quote]
Well, as for destination there will only be ever 2 possibilites. Either space battle occurs, in which case we have the most powerful ship ever created, or ground battle occurs, in which you have a diverse group of specialists to call on. Again 'in the planet' is not a step up when you don't know how much resistance you will find on that planet. If your definition of preparation and knowledge is no more than space battle versus ground battle, we still didn't know the answer. If you have to fight the Geth in space, then go with a ground team, clearly you need both. Please keep reaching.
[/quote]
Wait, are you talking about Ilos?

[JediPilot0]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
So no, we did not officially know
that the 'Reapers are coming'. They were still in dark space waiting
for Sovereign's indication to attack the Citadel.

"Comming"
does not neccessarily mean they are physically moving towards us.
Comming, in this sense means that they will be here in the future. So
yes, at the end of ME1, the Reapers are "comming." At the end of ME2,
the Reapers are still "comming." The only change is that it's suggested
in one 5 second clip at the end that they are just flying here. No
reason that couldn't be shown at the end of ME1.

mxfox408 wrote...
(SPOILER WARNING) well it wasnt just that, you forget if the human reaper reached 100% completion then it would have been a pain in the ass for the citidel to stop another reaper from taking control and opening the citidel relays allowing the reapers to flood in. Sheperd stopped that plan from even lifing off buying more time for the galaxy to prepare. you also forget all council races are rebuilding, the rachni are builing up the quarians idk whats up with them and the geth will also help. who did i leave out?

Whoa, the races are rebuilding? That is jaw-dropping. I don't think anyone thought that would happen. I thought they would all just sit there and do nothing after a massive assault on the Citadel!

Also, you are making assumptions about what the Human Reaper was going to do when completed. This is the problem with ME2: you have to make assumptions about what is going on and what was "revealed." In ME1, you knew what you were stopping: The opening of the citadel relay and the arrival of the entire Reaper fleet.

[JediPilot0]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Now given this situation, are you honestly going to try telling me that for some stupid reason Shepard is supposed to throw a hissy fit and start yet another war in addition to dealing with the Reapers and Collectors?

So Shepard has no problem working with a group that has done horrific experiments on humans, but at the end of the game, he suddenly has a change of heart and doesn't want to sacrifice the "soul of our species"? So a few dozen or more brutal experiments on humans is fine, but using humans as some kind of robot goop isn't? NOW Cerberus is too shadey to be trusted? Was it a matter of numbers? 50 human experiments vs thousands? Where, Shepard is the line drawn on horrific human experiments? Oh, maybe it was a crappy plot device to make us work for Cerberus in the first place.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Listen to yourself. 'Camp the Omega IV relay'. Really? Against the Collectors, who were able to see through the Normandy's stealth systems, who have technology more advanced than even the Council, who've managed to keep anyone from crossing through the relay before that.

But charging INTO the Omega IV relay is better than trying to fortify the relay's exit with ships, mines, etc.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
And I still would like a response to Shepard's excuse for carelessly chasing after Saren on Virmire. He had no knowledge of what he was going to find once arriving, whether a Geth fleet, a desolate planet or whatever. I'd call that 'no details'.
.............
 Did we honestly know it was going to be a ground mission? Saren could easily have been inside Sovereign in space at the time.
............
You could have reached Ilos, have Sovereign detect you, and blow you to tiny pieces.

-Yes, we knew it was a ground mission. The "Conduit is on Ilos!"
-We knew the enemy: Geth, Sovereign, Saren (which our steath systems have handled on Virmire already)
-We have a stealth ship to evade detection. We managed to sneak onto Virmire, Saren's base of operations (where sovereign was btw) but can't handle an expedition of his to another planet?

So there was nothing careless about it.

The OmegaIV Relay on the other hand:

-We've only seen ONE Collector ship. No idea what class of ship it is or if there are more
-NO idea what we'll find on the other side: planet? Huge fleet of collector ships? More relays? A huge meetal wall? A huge gun pointed at the relay? Their home planet full of defensive weapons? Good thing I've got a Biotic Specialist and my Assassin!

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
 I am on a baseball team. I forgot to buy baseball cleats, a bat, and a glove. I do not perform up to par because of this. Next time, I know to prepare for baseball.

This is a bad analogy. It's more like you are visiting a contry you've never heard of, assume they play ANY sports, and bring a random collection of sports equipment from sports you know: Basketball, baseball bat, golf club, tennis raquet. Turns out they play some sport call "blah blah blah" and you need hoops and green socks to play. And each team needs their own baboon.

There's just no way to pretend this is good preparation. We're operating in complete ignorance of what to expect. As said earlier, there's no reason not to send at least a probe into the relay. Slap a quantum entaglement link on it so you can at least control it and bring it back, THEN you can prepare.

Also, I'd like to take the time to point out two curious parts of the ME2 plot (one of which was mentioned before and not addressed yet):

1:
-If the writers are not just making stuff up as they go along, where is the evidence of organic goop from Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper?

I mean, either the Human Reaper REALLY IS how all reapers reproduce, then the other two reapers should have revealed this goop. If the Human Reaper is UNIQUE, then even guessing that it is reaper reproduction (which is all it was, a guess by EDI) is incorrect since the other two reapers had no goop.
2:
-If biotics could counteract the dense seeker swarms on the Collector Station, why wasn't it suggetsed to use biotics on Horizon? It's not like they knew biotics would work, that plan was pulled out of their asses on the collector station. This is the reversal of why Mordin's countermeasure suddenly doesn't work on the collector station where it worked on Horizon.

Modifié par JediPilot0, 16 mars 2010 - 05:55 .

[tertium organum]

The retroactive dismissal of ME1 to make ME2 holes seem tinier is one of the things I've really begun to hate about debate on these boards. This is the best the defenders of the story can do - make abstract generalizations, ignore context, and make quantitative comparisons (me1 has less story missions) instead of qualitative ( how good the missions or story is). This is like saying all sports teams are equal because they have the same amount of people on the field or that one is better because they have more people on the roster. That's not how it works - if your players suck. having many of them to rotate in is not going to allow them to beat elite teams. Same principle here - these abstract, purely quantitative comparisons say nothing about the quality of the story.

Oh, I can reduce ME1's plot to the plot of ME2. Yes, you can but that ignores how the game told the story, how it was properly paced (except for the side missions which were unnecessary) and the general sense of mystery and dread throughout the game - what the heck is going to happen? Nothing in ME2 compares to Virmire or Illos in learning about the Reapers. The reveals about the Reapers motives and what they're doing are truly horrific in ME2 but they lacked impact because the pacing was so screwy - the mission aspects of the game came at arbitrary points sucking you away from what you were absorbed in (the characters) to do something else that was supposedly the main point. And after all that build up, you do a 30 minute mission that starts out great and ends with a terminator. Horrible. This was Bioware's opportunity to give some more exposition, to really drive home the point but they failed - they had the right idea at the beginning using your different squadmates but it didn't pan out.

You can't have a character-driven story in which all the characters are expendable and their actual mission seems periphery to the main arc. Bioware obviously intend us to see the human Reaper has some great threat, that thwarting it did something but what? Was it going to attack the citadel again? Really Bioware? Now, even this itself would have been fine if they suggested as much in the game and indicated why it would have performed Sovereign's job better. It's human so it can do what? After all, the heretic geth have been beaten into near oblivion and the citadel forces are being reinforced. What makes this terminator thing so threatening then? How is it going to attack and defeat he citadel forces without an army?  It's an abomination, certainly, but I can' get gung-ho knowing that the real threat is still on the way and I have no more knowledge of how to stop it.

In ME1, we prevented the opening of a mass relay that would launch the invasion. Excellent ending - we stopped the surprise attack but now we need to learn how to stop them once and for all. Enter ME2. You destroy a human reaper that was about to do what? Was going to be completed how? It's not like attacking earth with the collector ship was going to work. So what the heck is going on here? Note that we did not ask these questions at the end of ME1 though it was left completely open - the threat is not over but we foiled their major plan. In ME2, we have foiled their plans for what? Again, how can they finish that Reaper and what the heck is it going to do? By the time its done, the citadel fleets will be significantly reinforced no? So what is unique about it - what does being a human reaper mean? It's diverse? What? These are the irritating things that come up when you try to make sense of the plot - you have completed a suicide mission that successfully stops a single species from having more people abducted yet all species are still under threat of extinction so what exactly have I done?

Modifié par tertium organum, 16 mars 2010 - 05:59 .

[RhythmlessNinja]

So...who is actually reading any of these short stories in this thread? lol

[smudboy]

JediPilot0 wrote...

1:
-If the writers are not just making stuff up as they go along, where is the evidence of organic goop from Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper?

I mean, either the Human Reaper REALLY IS how all reapers reproduce, then the other two reapers should have revealed this goop. If the Human Reaper is UNIQUE, then even guessing that it is reaper reproduction (which is all it was, a guess by EDI) is incorrect since the other two reapers had no goop.
2:
-If biotics could counteract the dense seeker swarms on the Collector Station, why wasn't it suggetsed to use biotics on Horizon? It's not like they knew biotics would work, that plan was pulled out of their asses on the collector station. This is the reversal of why Mordin's countermeasure suddenly doesn't work on the collector station where it worked on Horizon.

These are some excellent points.  (So was the rest of your post, but ugh, my head.)

The first one apologists will argue is the same reason the council couldn't find any Reaper evidence.  With the derelict Reaper, I'd imagine all the organic components would've deteriorated millions of years ago, but that does not explain that "core" not being a certain shape (and having a skeleton of some sort) akin to the human Reaper core.

As for 2, I firmly believe they had to quickly justify bringing all these cool people they made levels and loyalty missions with, for the suicide mission.  "So, let's make bubble-girls!"  (Kinda reminds me of that FF Crystal Chronicles game...)   But why Mordin couldn't upgrade his countermeasure during all this time is beyond me.

And we all know the escort role was just "anyone loyal."

[glacier1701]

 I am not going to quote people here because it would turn some simple statements into walls of text. Not that this not going to be long but it would be even longer. So what I am going to do is point out some things that are being used to say that the plot was advanced and counter them.

1. The NEW Normandy is one of the most advanced ships in the galaxy and fully upgraded is perhaps capable of taking on a Reaper.
 Okie it had 3 HOLES punched in it while it had FULL SHIELDS and super duper armour by an Occulus that could not kill Shepard when it came to a face-to-face confrontation. This is assuming you upgraded the Normandy. If you didnt well you dont have the most advanced ship in the galaxy.
 
Note: Quite frankly with the power the Occulus displayed getting into the Normandy cargo hold it is surprising to be told that Shepard needs to go down and shoot it. While your party members tell you you need heavy weapons a pistol is still fine to kill it. Oh and why in heck wasn't it melting down everything in the cargo hold or burning its way to the engine? I mean come on it burnt through the hull and internal bulkheads are not as armoured as the hull.

2. We find out more about the Reapers.
 What we find out is the how of their method of building more of themselves and why they 'kill' off technological civilisations. Yet we had that information from ME1. To be more exact we could figure out the how - machines can build more machines. The why of 'killing' off technological civilisations is a bit more vague but it would not have been unfair to say that if organics develop too much technologically they are a threat to the Reapers.

Now in ME2 we get a combined answer in that organic material is needed to make a Reaper. The problem this introduces is why does it have to be a technological advanced species? There is obviously nothing that special about technology because apparently the Protheans (more advanced than the current Citadel races) turned out to be useless in making a new Reaper out of them. Yet the Collectors focus on humanity when apart from technology the 'organic' part of humanity is the same now as it was say 2000 years ago or even longer.

Even worse is that the exposure of this 'new' fact contradicts completely what was said in ME1. And despite the huge amount of organic material we are told would be needed Sovereign wreckage lacks any sign of organic material. To give you an idea of the amount of organic material needed lets say that one person gives up on average 10kilograms of material to the new Reaper. EDI states that millions are needed for a single Reaper - substantially more than just millions. Very vague but lets say 5 million people are needed. That means 500,000 metric tons of organic goop is contained in a Reaper. In terms of something tangible that is pretty much what the larger supertankers weigh or about 5 U.S.S Nimitz sized supercarriers. Yet despite what we are told in terms of recovered material from Sovereign in quanties good enough to allow 2 groups to develop new technology not one microgram of organic material seems to have been found.

So we either have 2 types of Reapers which means that we still do not know what they are (are they one or the other or BOTH). Or BioWare got it wrong with one of the types and thus invalidated everything that was said in ME1 assuming ME2 got it correct.

3. We got a squad that can be used to fight the Reapers.
OKie. How are we going to be fighting the Reapers? So far as I can tell they are SPACESHIPS - that is ships that move around in space. So does that mean we have to invade every single one of them to kill them because thats about what we have to do with the squad as it stands right now. If someone can come up with how having a squad means you can fight thousands, or tens of thousands of Reapers please let us know.

4. We have set the groundwork for allies.
Okie lets see - we are facing HUGE numbers of larger than Dreadnought sized vessels so what can our allies do?
Krogan - hmmm no ships so are we going to have to ship them around and somehow get them onboard Reapers because thats about the only way they can kill a Reaper.
Quarians - okie they got a fleet of 50,000 ships. How many of those can be considered combat ships? And even if they can fight how 'new' are they? After all so far as we've been told the Quarians get their ships from other races and it does seem that they are 'used' when obtained. Personally I wouldn't want to rate their combat potential as better than very low!!
Rachni - well some people will have them as allies and some wont. So that puts them out of the question. Plus we really do not know what tech they can have since they only have just come back from the dead so to speak.
Geth - They most probably have the largest combat fleet in the galaxy but do they have the technology to be able to take out a Reaper? We have no idea and none was given in game. Not much use if we do not know if they can be useful in killing Reapers.
The Alliance/Council - well this is laughable. According to the info in ME2 the Alliance has not managed to replace the 8 cruisers it lost at the Battle of the Citadel. More importantly everyone seems to believe that it cannot match Geth technology. If we are unsure that the Geth can fight Reapers then how can the Alliance. The Council itself is in complete denial so how useful are they if they are not taking any steps to build something that might be of use.

Basically our allies simply do not have any ability to stop the Reapers. In effect while we may have set the groundwork for allies we have nothing to give them that would enable them to fight the Reapers.

So what this boils down to is this. We have allies who can't fight Reapers. We have a squad that can't fight ships in space. We have a ship that can't tackle a Reaper. And we know less about the Reapers than we did at the end of ME1 since new information in ME2 contradicts everything we learned about them. So I think by any definetion that I can think of the plot was NOT advanced in ME2 it was setback by many orders of magnitude.
 

Modifié par glacier1701, 16 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[Raphael diSanto]

I love ME2, but I've said all along that the writers were making stuff up as they went. It's patently obvious that ME1 wasn't written with 2 and 3 in mind. It's patently obvious that the writers felt that they'd written themselves into a corner with ME1. It's patently obvious that they were scrabbling for things for Shepard to do in ME2.



Yes, there's more exposition (although some of it doesn't actually hold up very well, under closer scrutiny), but the most obvious thing to me is very simply:



BioWare didn't figure out the plots of all 3 games before making, producing and releasing 1.

[glacier1701]

RhythmlessNinja wrote...

So...who is actually reading any of these short stories in this thread? lol

Well some of us are