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[smudboy]

[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Ad hominem is a logical fallacy.
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Ad hominem is a personal attack.
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You call that proof? As I said, it's bilge. I'm thinking most of your arguments come from this site, and you haven't swayed me thusfar. If linking random sites was all it took to win a debate, you would not see these essays being posted. You would see hyperlinks.
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It's actually a really good post.  You're right about specifics, though, how "everyone in your crew" is reduced to just Chakwas and Joker.

Keep it up.
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And this is my point. Not even five minutes in, I found problems with your article that you admit to.
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Yes.  Like I said, keep it up.  You might learn something.
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Now see *this* would be an ad hominem. You are using the fact that I play DnD to say that it is merely comical and not worthy of argumentation.[/quote]
I'm not making fun of you.  I'm laughing at the fact that you play DnD, and were about to start an argument with it.  I'm laughing right now.  Haha!  I'm not attacking you.  I just find it hilarious.  It's called laughter.
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What do you not understand that they are not doing anything? You really don't seem to understand a retcon. In plots, a retcon occurs when the creator simply decides 'Oh, things actually went like this'.
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Shepard was the savior of the Citadel, and the galaxy.  He's returned as Space Jesus.

Citadel/Ashley/Kaidan/Liara/everyone else: "Yaaaay."

The fact that they're doing nothing begs some questions.  Especially the Alliance, when 100k humans are going missing.  Even with a human on the Council/completely human Council.
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And was recruiting your team really conflict? Hell, I didn't really think of it as such.  My point still stands that fighting TIM just causes needless problems for everyone.
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Being Shepard and not reacting strongly/having an option to react (like say, via import from doing Cerberus missions) is the issue.

You're trying to tell me this is pointless and causes problems.  Which is pretty much like saying what we learned of Cerberus in ME1 is pointless.  Of course it'll cause problems = conflict.  As you know, conflict is good in a story.

WE ARE RETCONNING, BABY.
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So if you didn't have to do their side missions, clearly they're not critical to the main plot of ME1, are they? In which case, from what you seem to argue, they cannot be used to show why Shepard wouldn't join Cerberus in ME2.
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If by side missions, you mean killing them, as they were trying to kill you.  On those horrific inhuman experiments.

Shepard would not stand for this, Paragon or Renegade.  He's a hero.  He'd stand against it.  TIM would've seen him as a huge impedement to his plans, but he brings him back?  Now I actually like the idea of working for the enemy, or a shady group, so I thought this was going to be cool.  But there's literally NO CONFLICT or choice about how and what Shepard feels about this aside from "I don't trust you."  And why?

Because the writers need to push their shoddy ME2 plot along.

VROOM VROOM!
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Watch halfway through this link. How is this *not* ditching them at the end of the game? 'I'm doing things my way'. You basically told him to suck it and stole some of his most expensive resources. This supports my point. The minute TIM asks you to do something controversial, you tell him to screw off. Before that, there was no reason for rebellion.
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ME1 was reason enough.
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Retconning is replacing a plot point. ME2 expounds on Cerberus. They are not the same. You get enough of Cerberus' reputation from people you pick up and just general facts to know they aren't fully trusted.
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They're also murderers, inhuman, and apparently a secret organization.

Oh wait, they've got colored uniforms, a massive frigate, and a freakin logo.

WOO HOO!  ALL ABOARD
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And at the end of the renegade ending, all your party members indicate something feels wrong, even Miranda. This is foreshadowing for ME3.
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Actually, I think about 5 of them had no problems for keeping the base.  (Or was it during the choice to save/destroy it?  Depending on who you took.)
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Beyond Saren's logic possibly being correct? That alone could be enough to join. I mean yes, Shepard thinks he is indoctrinated. Although Saren also admits that Sovereign can't take full control from him anyway. But this is technically 'railroading' I"m not given the option to join, am I? Especially if I'm tired of the Council's pissing and moaning. This is something both Saren and Shepard understand. They're so obsessed with politics they ignored the incoming threats. To me, it seems logical Shepard would do what's best for organics, even if it required fighting the Council.
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There's no reason to join Saren.  This is not the ME story.  It is an illogical concept, with no basis for an option.  There would be no conflict if the enemy you're sworn to fight, you join because of 1) Wah I hate politics.
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Indeed it is. ME wasn't a plot driven game for me. It was universe driven. I was impressed more by Bioware's ability to create a believable science fiction story than I was able to believe the plot of ME. This is why ME2's less complete story isn't an issue for me. It never was my strict purpose for playing the games. I think they were both well-executed. But both are filled with action move stereo types (the Mako on Ilos, jumping on your ship at the end of ME2, among many others).
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Never heard of a universe driven game before.  Don't think I want to know.
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Plagiarism laws would disagree with you and you're punished rather heavily for trying it. There is nothing 'great' about reusing or stealing another person's work.
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Artists disagree.
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A lack of originality is ridiculous, which you can't seem to grasp.[/quote]
And now I've reason to believe you've never created anything in your life, before. Like, ever.
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The reason why you enjoy ME so much is very well because you haven't been exposed to other Bioware games.
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Nah, it was a fun game.  I liked the story.  Made sense.
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If we can all get by 'stealing' each other's works, many more things would be considered art. We have seen Bioware's plot formula  a million times already. It's not innovative, it's not the best thing ever, it just gets the job done.
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Works for me.  (Oh, right, aside from ME2.)
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At least ME2 attempts to experiment, a little.
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ME2: STOOOORRRRREEEEEE

ME2 FANS: IT'S ALIIIIVE!  10/10!
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Again, see ME1 plotline. Rehashing plot structures in a blatant fashion is not the way to greatness. ]Hero's journey doesn't suffer from this because it is typically considered in context of a book or movie. Video games, as a different medium of art, have to worry about this more since everything must fit gameplay and avoid becoming 'contrived'.
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Could've sworn ME1 used Hero's Journey...
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Hell, he would have been a better choice in ME1 too. Remember, he headed the investigation in C-sec and always thought Saren was bad news, and he already proved he was capable of becoming a Spectre, *and* he's a turian, a Council race. Sometimes, you just have to accept plot choices instead of fighting every detail. See example of why we did not set a trap for Saren.
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ME1 is the story of Shepard saving the galaxy.  Shepard is irreplaceable.

ME2 is the hacked story of Cyber Jesus attacking some aliens because a terrorist faction whom you may have tried to stop and kill in ME1 said to Deus Ex your ass, for some reason.  Shepard could be anyone.
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Then we just have to agree to disagree here. Miranda is great as a second in command, which is her place in Cerberus.
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No I can't accept after reading that line.  That makes her a leader.  Thank you for agreeing with me.
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No, but one of the things about RPGs is that everyone regards your particular character as special or points them out..for some reason, even if they have absolutely no idea to know why you're special. Even in Dragon Age. Everyone doesn't know you're a Grey Warden, but for some reason most side quests are reserved just for you. Alistair is given a side line, even though he's your veteran in rank and experience. Side quests, in virtue of being themselves, are contrived.
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Sounds just like Miranda to me.  She's special for man a reason.  Especially for actually being alive.
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Precisely the point. Most games could have 'anyone' performing the main quest or side quest. Kotor does this and all the party members, like you have with ME2, pointed out how stupid of an idea it seems. 3/4 through the game, it all comes together and makes perfect sense.
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Wonderful, you're agreeing with me again.  This is looking good.
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You have to understand this point. *This* is what Bioware lives for and they do it extremely well. It's what causes me to forgive their overly formulaic plot structure. And this is also their first trilogy/sequel (Not counting Baldur's Gate). I'm willing to wait until ME3 to see if they do reveal ME2 to be much less contrived than it may seem. If they fail, then I like everyone else will call for their blood.
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You don't have to wait for ME3 to apologize to ME2.  I'll tell you right now: ME2 is as contrived as it seems.  Really.
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True, but again Jacob never has that 'take the lead' attitude. He was head of security, his personality type is that of someone who would prefer to point and shoot. Miranda is...a cold ****.
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Look, it doesn't matter.  Jacob is essentially Paragon Shep minus the Reaper crap.  He's not a "true" leader or whatever bull**** definition you're trying to come up with.  ME2 Shep = replaceable. ME1 Shep = essential.
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Unfortunately, however way you play this out, your argument fails.
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Oh boy, why do I bother?
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That Miranda doesn't calm Jack down,
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Neither does Shepard.  That's the thing with Jack.  She's kinda...violent...
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understanding how crazy she is,
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Oh, so Miranda's smart enough to know how crazy she is.  Score one for Miranda having knowledge of whom she's talking to.  Hmm.  Sounds like she might be able to understand Jack.
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and goads her shows just how immature she can be.
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Miranda does not goad Jack.
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Again, she's smirking throughout that cutscene.
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No, that's called being bucktoothed.  Or the Yvonne look.  BioWare Talking head syndrome, maybe.  Either way, you're really grasping here.
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Your point about confrontational would be right if someone was trying to shoot them. Of course you fight back. She's instigating someone, a companion, who is already close to the edge after she's about to calm down. In-fighting doesn't make things easier.
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Dude, Jack went into Miranda's office to start a fight.  I'm sure in your fantastical little imagination, the True Leader that Would Be Miranda would be able to stop time and space with her biotic powers and turn Jack into a playful happy puppy.
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You never see Shepard getting into these huge shouting matches with Thane, or anyone else.
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Shepard is a flat and static character.  And the player character.  Kinda goes with the territory.  I'd imagine Miranda would be the same way if the player controlled her.
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Your point would stand if we saw Shepard start a fight with Jack, Miranda, anyone then have Jacob or Miranda come sort it out. This doesn't happen. Why? Because Shepard keeps the big picture always in sight.
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WTF are you even TALKING about here?

STOP PULLING ON THE BELL OR I WILL TURN THIS BUS AROUND!
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When Tali and Legion are about to brawl, EDI doesn't call Miranda, she calls Shepard. Why? He's in charge and always know what to do.
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Magical question time: Who would EDI call if Miranda was in charge?
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When Wrex flies off the handle, Kaiden doesn't go talk to him. Shepard does. Why? He's in charge and always knows what to do, even if it means killing Wrex.
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Hahahaaha!  This is awesome.

Shepard: "I'm Commander Shepard, and I'm in charge.  I know what to do."
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1) Much easier to lead a scientist team than a military or spec ops operation. This shows Miranda's intelligence and ability to lead a science team. This is also where we are shown that most of Miranda's underlings cannot stand her and that she does have insecurities regarding who she is because of her genetic modifications.
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It also proves she can lead a team and isn't perfect despite being genetically augmented.  I think there's a line by Grunt where "Shepard may ****** me off at times" if you keep going Renegade.

Shepard: "But I'm Commander Shepard, and I know what to do!  I'm also a true leader!"
Grunt: "Dammit!"
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2)  See morale, previous party members, and status as a hero among Cerberus operatives. They jump at the opportunity of working with Shepard. Not the case with Miranda.
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Seeing as they're part of the crew, follow orders, are all Cerberus, and don't really do much, I'm not seeing mutiny or enthusiasm as an issue, considering we never really...see...what they do with all that morale you keep talking about...

Shepard: "Hoo ah!  Feel that Morale, beaming off my Hero like forehead!"
Crew: 
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3) 'I have no problem working with you...until the mission is over'. *gets in your face* Very immature. My five year old cousins instigate each other all the time. We don't know how the argument started, but we do know Shepard ended it, not her.
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And if Miranda was the player character, I'm she would be able to, too.
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This is Bioware's first (possibly second with BG) trilogy. Bioware is also known for doing epic stories. Let's see what the third one does first.
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Or I can point out why ME2 sucks and you won't listen.  Same deal really.  Only faster, and more fun.

Shepard: "No one can replace my Leadership Aura!"
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Indeed he did just find out. But I fail to see how it's contrived.[/quote]
Because it's not explained?  Because Joker comes out of nowhere?  Because within minutes of seeing the Normandy go boom, it's all back?  Because we don't know what exactly he's been doing for 2 years since all he wants to do is fly, and how exactly Cerberus has filled that roll?

Because BioWare needs to quickly tie up the reboot with some semblance of a story?

Shepard: "Mwahaha!  My leadership skills make terrorist organizations SOLVE DEATH!"
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I think it's pretty self-evident that TIM recruited them and told them about Shepard. I don't see why it needs to be explained in giant neon colors"SHEPARD!" And she explains pretty clearly that she's not here for Cerberus, she really doesn't care for them. She's very much the nostalgic type if you've noticed. She was handled perfectly and wanted to rejoin the crew.
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Because it was 2 flippin years?  Because Chakwas was a cardboard useless NPC stand in, in the last game, and now suddenly she's back for, I'm guessing continuity?  She's here in Cerberus, how exactly?  And when did she find out about Shepard?  (Mind you I've already stated this, but you apparently did have these ideas register, so I have to do a lot of repeating, hence, size of post.)

Shepard: "That's okay!  My Super Leadership Brain gets in the way of logic and memory sometimes!"

But in your eyes, "She was handled perfectly".  Which makes you a moron.

Oh sorry I didn't mean to offend you there.  It makes your idea moronic.

Shepard: "Mwahahaha!"

OMG you actually responded and are trying to argue Chakwas makes sense!
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1) Shepard does ask this very question in the drinking scene. I believe this is where she discusses Joker. She admits how she thinks the Alliance is more fun in terms of soldiers (Jenkins), but Shepard and Joker pulled her over.
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Actually it's the scene where you talk to her when you first meet her, about bulkheads and what not.  She discusses Joker during the drinking scene.
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2) I think it's a tad more personal than that. I can think of two situations where someone might. 1. If you've known someone long enough and trust their judgment, though still unlikely. 2. If you are forced into difficult situations in short amounts of time, you bond much more intimately much more quickly. Chakwas demonstrates the second type. Joker joined Cerberus and it's pretty clear she knew Shepard was going to be there.
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And in this case, I can now think of many situations where you might jump off a bridge, if one of your friends did.

Shepard: "Bridges?  Fear my ARCing Leadership Skills!  You only jump when I say so!  Mwahaha!"

It's NOT pretty clear she knew Shepard was going to be there.
WHEN did she join Cerberus?  1 year ago?  Yesterday?  Before or after she got tired of the Mars Station?  Or when she found out you were back?  Did she know about Lazarus.  Wait, when did Jeff join again?  'cause that's the real reason she joined.  Wait a second, how many reasons and when did this cause her to act?  Explanation of ones behavior that isn't explained is bad writing, especially when we're dealing with multiple motivations, when these motivations occurred, what happened during those now multiple points in time, and now, and a few other questions I can't believe I have to explain before it becomes a ridiculous train of thought.  But you just don't get it.

Shepard: "Everyone loves me.  As such, you don't need logic!  Come to me, my followers.  LEADER MAN IS HERE.  LOGIC?  Beware. "
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Meh, I thought it was very contrived, fit only to force you to choose between your two human party members (conveniently). If they had made you choose among all six of your team mates, it would have felt much more personal, as if you 'you' put them there.
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You found it contrived that a military operation, conducted by a military leader, asked another military leader who he's working with, for one of their military personnel to conduct the military operation with, because you couldn't choose one of your non-military party members?

Shepard: "So glad Cerberus is on our side!  Wouldn't want to confuse non-military people!  They might think we're contrived or something! "
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ME2 makes you think about how this impacts the Reapers. Well, you need to beat them, but TIM gets a huge advantage versus destroying it, but having no direct means of fighting the Reapers.
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ME2 makes me think how utterly stupid the reapers are with plots like these.
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If something is valued only as itself, no sequel makes sense. I can merely say I've never seen the characters of Episode V before, who are these people? You cannot simply evalute everything in itself. Episodes IV and V both have the title 'Star Wars' and take place in the same universe, same general plot, same general characters. Lord of the Rings does the same.
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You can evaluate ME2 as a stand alone and as a sequel.  As a story, it's mediocre.  As a plot, it's ridiculous.

As a sequel: throw in ME1 and it's farcical.

Shepard: "Not when I'm around!  All issues of continuity are fixed!":wizard:
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I played the game, loved it, and accepted it wasn't the greatest thing ever, as with ME1.
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I liked the game too.  My problem is the story and plot.
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No, but I was never arguing the crew jacking or the Ashley/Kaidan plot hole. I agreed on those and it pisses me off too. Here's one way Ashley could have been handled better-you learn the Collectors are going to attack the colony, you arrive and confront Ashley who pretty much hates you, then the Collectors abduct her. This would have been a beautiful set up.
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Your amazing imagination aside, that couldn't have been the only plot hole you were pissed off about.  I mean, really.  We know you've got the hots for ME2, but there must've been SOMETHING that just did not add up for you.
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Ah, but again retcons and plotholes are different. The mission is still 'stop the Reapers'. You're also forgetting that there is a reason you blew the Reaper up-the shields had gone active, sealing you inside. It was either blow it up (which also deactivated the shields) or be eaten by husks.
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That's the over-arching plot.  The fact that Cerberus has been researching a dead Reaper, and TIM has nothing against you gaining help outside of Cerberus when we have now irrevocable proof is absolutely assinine.

And I don't see why one can't have a plothole which is also a retcon.
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And that's my point why how ME3 is handled is important.
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Suuuure, but don't forget how to evaluate ME2's story on its' own merits?
[quote]You argue the plot is contrived-so many plot holes. You don't seem to take issue with this hypothetical scenario (which seems to handle most of your problems) and there's a great many others which Bioware is capable of. My point is that if ME3 develops in a way that explains ME2's apparent plotholes, it is not longer stupid it is called 'brilliant'. Kotor did this as well, only it was self-contained within a single game.
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And what if ME is 12 games long?  Are you going to keep waiting to say if ME4 is going to be crap if the buildup-import-continuity you were waiting for in ME9 never came?

Can't you just look at a story, as as tory, and a sequel and go "let's see how this makes sense"?

Shepard: "Not when I'm in the room!  Calm down! I've got a shoulder to kink-out!"
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Unfortunately that is not an argument against what will happen. If you want to dispute whether we can be discovered (which honestly it's not a flawless plan even with stealth), fine. But if Saren/Sovereign attack you, a good response isn't "We don't want to fight a space battle here!". The point is, many great stories are great because of this-it demonstrates individuals who are forced into situations which are hardly ideal, where anything can go wrong, but still manage to come out on top. ME2 just placed more emphasis on 'we need to be prepared' but most good plot structures don't go in with characters being certain of victory.
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I agree, putting individuals in situations that are difficult for them is great storytelling.  Conflict 101.  But none of what you just wrote makes ME1's story being bad in relattion to Ilos.  Obviously anything can be improved.

ME2's plot fails.  Yeah, ME2 was fun Pokemoning 11 people.  It was great!  I loved the characters It also had NO RELEVANCE to anything.  Why a sniper?  Why another sniper?  Why a normal, oh wait, another super biotic?  Why why why?

I want to know what the details of the MAIN PLOT ARE.  Instead, we spend time doing wtf TIM wants, instead of using him to get helpful information on our enemy.

BioWare: "You're going to fight a ground war in Asia!  We just don't know how yet, exactly.  But don't worry.  Our level and character designers are hard at work for you!  Do you like Ramen? "
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And which they paid for. Or do you not find indoctrination even after death to be extremely creepy? It works better than a much more technologically advanced culture (Reapers) possibly being unable to detect a stealthed ship.
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What?  It's a goddamned Reaper, man.  This makes the ME2 plot moot.  (Not that it was much in the first place.)  Here we got undeniable existence of our main enemy.  That overarching continuity thing.  Saving the galaxy.  Screw the Collectors!  This is what we really need.  Everyone will believe you.  Cerberus has been here for months?!  But wtf...

BioWare: "ASSUMING CONTROL"

Oh wait yeah we should just get caught in it and blow it up, right.
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And you're right, I really can't defend 11 people.
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...could've @#$@#$ fooled me...
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But as I explain it's really 5 (Thane, Jack, Samara, Zaeed, and Legion). Miranda and Jacob are tied to Cerberus. Garrus and Tali are related through you. Mordin and Grunt both actually have relevance to the main plot.
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Mordin acts as a plot device, and does get some main plot introduction, and that one conversation with the Vorcha about the Plague/Collectors on his recruitment quest, but that goes absolutely nowhere.  Grunt?  Really?  Since when?  What, the COMMENT by Okeer mentioning "I don't know what the Collectors want?"  That's plot relevance?

Well in ME2 that's as close as it gets, I guess.
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But it's not entirely unreasonable in the grand scheme of things.
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It's completely unreasonable in the grand scheme of things.  For the ME2 plot, for the overarching "stop the Reapers" plot, for story continuity with ME1.

All they had to do was give a reason that made sense.  That's aaaaaall.  If they could introduce Mordin with a function or cause, they could do it with everyone.  (I've mentioned this before in my posting, but hell, I don't think I've said anything new for a few days now.)
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And unfortunately having a goal and motive never makes things go your way, just the opposite in fact.
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Shepard: "Luckily I'm here to LEAD!"
TIM: "If by lead, just do everything I say."
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We know that those who are abducted are never seen again. We know humans are being taken in the hundreds of thousands. I doubt the Collectors are taking them to an island paradise complete with foot massages beyond the Omega IV. Is knowing they work for the Reapers and that they have a reputation for experimentation not enough to make you see your crew is in immediate danger?
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The argument isn't about the crew and immediate danger.  It's about the plot.  The whole, point, of the, story, that is, to Fight the Collectors.  Dammit Jim!  Who cares if the crew is lost?  We have a goal: Fight the Collectors.  Having a +1 to motivation certainly helps.  But did it give us any info on our enemy, locale, armament, numbers, positions, locations, etc.?  And if you're not ready, you can still go Pokemoning.

TIM: "Gotta catch em all."
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I'd say air-dropping a nuke from a ship with stealth systems is a pretty simple objective. There was no reason for any of the ground mission on Virmire when you think of it in that context, but we had to learn about Sovereign and lose Alenko or Ashley.
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Right, they could've been doing a number of plans.  This is more of a nitpick, but I saw nothing wrong (nor anything particular brilliant) with the plan.
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Unfortunately, we didn't know what happened to them, so assuming they are dead is no more acceptable than you refusing to let me assume TIM knows what he's doing. The game chose to force a ground mission to recover your crew, which is admittedly contrived.
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If by assuming TIM knows what he's doing by random writer filling in the blanks, yeah, speculate away.
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ME1 Plot: Investigate/Stop Saren. You find out Reapers and Geth fleet are involved, so mission parameters changed.

ME2 Plot: Stop the Collectors. They take your crew, so parameters change. You're still stopping the Collectors, but there's more to it.
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Actually when they take your crew the parameters don't really change. You're still going to go "Fight the Collectors" regardless, as that's the plot (which we've known all along.)  The potential to save them might pop up, and yes, the contrived notion of a ground team and how that comes about occurs post-Cruiser battle.  So I guess it makes sense?

Shepard: "But I was so sure when I used my Leader Powers™ by going in close to finish them off was the right decision!  Now we can have a ground mission and potentially save our missing crew members!"
Legion: "But Shepard-Commander.  We did our loyalty mission and then went to stare at Asari dancers."
Shepard: "Don't worry.  Chakwas will take longer to process with all that alcohol."
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Base understanding of the Two Towers only on the Two Towers. Base understanding of Episode V only on Episode V. Without the context of the original, no one knows who the characters are. Larger picture is always more important than the self-contained. The entire plot of Star Wars is much grander than the tale of any single chapter.
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Maybe I was being too literal.  We can judge ME2 as ME2.  That is, as a story that's stand alone, and a story that's a sequel.  (That's exactly what it is.)  We cannot reserve judgement for ME2 by waiting for ME3, much the same way we can't reserve judgement for ME1 by waiting for ME2 (well you ...can...but there's no reason to.)  Additionally, it's stupid to start saying how poor ME1's story was now that we've experienced ME2.  Which is why you saying when you experienced ME3, you'll then give ME2 a proper analysis.  That's foolish.

You can however point out how a sequel doesn't operate as a sequel, doesn't build on the foundation of what came before, and instead does something totally different, whether good or bad.

You've got ME2 now.  It's either a good story (with a good plot) or not.  I, as you know, think the story is "eh".  I know the plot is crap.  It could be good and bad in it's own right.  The overarching story and plot might suffer, but it's already too late for that.  As the title of this thread has been, ME2 has not accomplished anything plotwise.
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Goal also seems to be stopping each other. I thought that was self-evident or were they going to share the Conduit?
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I don't think enemies would play nice.

Shepard: "Foolish antagonist!  Fear my leadership powers!  Friend time!"
Saren: "Ah, you're right.  What would I be without your P/R system?"
Saren: *shoots self*
[quote]
But this doesn't change the fact that Episode V is character driven. So is ME2. The issue as you point out, alot of the development is with new characters. But we do see Chakwas, Garrus, etc expounded on which was enough for me not to think my crew really got the shaft.
[/quote]
ME2 is not character driven.  I don't know about Episode V.  But a character driven story works like this:
Character Acts->Events Happen->Character Reacts

Now you could make the argument for video games, since we're the main "character", being one giant walking plot device!  But I mean from the literary standpoint.

In ME2, Events happen from TIM.  He tells you to do stuff, you do it, repeat.  The majority of the game is Pokemoning.  The focus of a character driven story would be how characters react.  Since Shepard is a flat and static character, and the player more of an passive, interactive voyeur for the most part, we never get any kind of character instances of the narrative from him.  That doesn't mean there isn't character development, it's just from our Pokemon.  Which is sad, because, save Mordin's plot device, they have 0 relevance to the plot.

If it was a character driven story, we'd have to have some kind of internal Shepard monologue, and I'd imagine he'd create events as you chose them.  It would be an entirely different gaming experience.  If events come to him, he's just reacting to them, which is a plot driven story.  Since the plot is "Fight the Collectors", it's pretty clear this is not a character-driven story.

(I keep thinking of Paul Newman in the 1963 film "Hud."  Which is a film about a guy named Hud.)
[quote]
True, but as you said this is war. Wars usually aren't fought with one aspect in mind whether naval, air, or ground-they are considered in light of the whole. I can say a ship battle will be important with the Collectors (which is why TIM gives you the Normandy and you can upgrade it), but ground battles are also fairly common.
[/quote]
Sure, if we had navy, air, ground, etc.  We're in space.  This is a spacewar.

Yes, and it's not uncommon to have a ground battle, or go on gruond missiosn pre-Omega-4 to get ready for the Suicide Mission.  But we have a @#$@#$ spaceship.  It's like asking the Enterprise to pick up a contingent of Klingon warriors to do...something in space, somewhere...but because they're Klingons, we'll be great against a boarding party!

Shepard: "Did someone say party?  My Leadership skills say it's time for dancing!"
Everyone: "NO."
[quote]
That's all well and good, but why did they bother making you a Spectre? Why (again) not Garrus, who is known to be qualified? You're still a nooby as a Spectre anyway, and they think your visions are crap. It makes sense they would send their second most qualified Specre to take down the first. It would also make sense if they sent another Spectre with you since they occasionally work in small teams. 'None' of this occurs. Face it, this was just as contrived as Shepard's role in ME2, except there he at least had a list of accomplishments.
[/quote]
I thought the introduction to the Spectres made sense, in that the
Concil ordered you, the new human Spectre, to go track down Saren.  Kinda helped that the intro with Anderson, Udina and Hacket seemed like you were a big deal, more than some Turian cop, at least.

Kind of part of the whole human-Spectre thing, I thought?  No?  You didn't like that?

How was it contrived!?  It seemed like a solution to many things, as was explained.  The Council wanted Saren brought back.  Udina wanted the Council to act on Geth attacks, and track down Saren.  The Turian councellor was concerned about triggering a war with the Terminus systems.  At the suggestion by the Asari Councellor, and Turian not liking it "it's too soon!", they made Shepard a Spectre.  They were confused about the Reapers and the Conduit.  Shepard was trying to prove Saren betrayed the Council, and he got evidence to do that.  Humans get their Spectre, one step closer to getting on the Council.  Shepard gets to continue to pursue Saren.  Garrus can come along for the ride, too.

But your argument is: "Hey Thanks Shep, Udina, Anderson, all you human guys.  We're going to go make Garrus a Spectre now."  What?

Udina: "SON I AM DISAPPOINT."

It was not only explained, explained well, but there was even an argument about it, and then a resolution.  This is some pretty good explanation.

Shepard: "Woo hoo!  Watch my Leadership skills go into crazy AUTHORITAY"

Oh yeah.  And in ME?2  Shepard comes back from the frickin DEAD.  Because the marketing department thought that'd be a great idea to showcase their "Legion" character idea wearing his armor.



Shepard: "But I have a list of accomplishments!"
[quote]
3) Competent, yes. He's still not shown to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. His qualifications are not so rare that no one has reached them.
4) And there are more qualified Spectres who either could have assisted or taken over the investigation.
5) All Spectres can go places rather easily. This is not unique to Shepard.
[/quote]
If there are more Spectres, we know nothing about them or their existence.
It wasn't a Council plot.  It was humans politics and a military operation, and proving Saren went bad.  Nothing to do with some Council's plot or how they deal with their own.  Wrong story, chief.
It's unique to Shepard now, he's a Spectre, baby!

Shepard: "WOO HOO!  STEP ON TEH GAS"
[quote]
1. Aye, he did want to fly, but remember he didn't find out about the Normandy until the night before. He is indicated to having prior knowledge of Shepard's existence, as his lack of surprise indicates. And Tali really isn't that thankful. If you notice, she still throws a fit when she reaches your ship about Cerberus and doesn't particularly like that you have an AI.
[/quote]
Jeff: "Just call me Jeff The Contrived."

Yes, because that 2 second look back at Jacob when he mentions you have an AI, you can clearly see her pupils dilate, telling us that Tali "doesn't particularily like" AI.

Or the lighting in the Comm room.  Or that.  Or wtf you're talking about.

Shepard: "OH YEAH, TALI BABY, LEAD ME TO MY ENGINE ROOOOM."
[quote]
2. I'd replay that scene with Archange. He *did* know who you were. He actually explains the reason he shoots you is to make it look less suspicious. If Cerberus had tried that without Shepard, he would have popped their heads and likely died against the later wave of Mercs. He spares you because you were Shepard.
[/quote]
Then Shepard's plan of attack, not knowing it was Garrus, was flawed.  He would've sniped his whole dang team.

Shepard: "SON I AM DISAPPOINT"

But I'll buy that.  Frankly since at this point in writing so much I cease to care about your reasoning.
[quote]


Jack joins because you let her look at the Cerberus files, Hell, even if you lie, it at least convinces her, but Miranda is unwilling to do this. Miranda suggests knocking her out and opposes you allowing Jack access to the files. She's strictly 'by the book' Cerberus. It's what limits her abilities as a leader and her ability to inspire others.
[/quote]
If TIM asked Miranda to get Jack, she'd get errrr done.

Shepard (the player) can also choose to pick that option, that is, to knock her out, too.

OH BUT MIRANDA DOES THINGS BY THE BOOK, IT CLEARLY LIMITS HER ABILTIES AS A LEADER TO INSPIRE OTHERS.

TIM: "MIRANDA I AM DISAPPOINT."
[quote]
And I'm saying that's not the case. Joker, Tali, Garrus, Jack, etc. Miranda is too limited by her own issues to do anything. You also haven't addressed the morale point or that people hate Miranda (which is indisputable-they really do).
[/quote]
Yeah, she's a goddamned walking ball of insecurity.

Miranda is so limited by her own issues she can't do ANYTHING.

Miranda: "THE WHITE OR BLACK SOCKS!  AHHHHHH!"
Miranda: *sobs*
Miranda: "I HATE MY DADDY!"

I haven't addressed the morale point or that people hate Miranda because you're pulling these out of your ass.
[quote]
Miranda would not have done loyalty missions
[/quote]
If she was the player character, I'd MAKE her do them!

Miranda: *sniff*
[quote]
She would not have conversed with her party to any significant degree.
[/quote]
Yeah, that forward and space bar button.  Never'll happen.
[quote]
You have so far been unable to provide another example of someone who can fully embrace that leadership role as well as Shepard. You have been unable to show anyone with his accomplishments (which is why he was chosen, regardless of whether it was necessary). And you have been unable to show how anyone has dealth with the Reapers in any significant fashion besides him. He is the only one with first-hand experience and will not underestimate the threat. Garrus is a turian and not to be considered with Cerberus. Jacob lacks the heart for it. And Miranda is too cold for her own good.
[/quote]
Shepard: "Let's face it smudboy.  I'm the leader, and no one could POSSIBLY do what I do in ME2"
[quote]
This is exactly why he was chosen for ME2. Only it makes more sense there because Cerberus and TIM are pro-human.
[/quote]
Right.  TIM cheated death and insane resources so he could find some guy to do his missions.  Ah huh.  I'll go read the Bible.  At least those plots are credible.
[quote]
The Council is back and forth, favoring and screwing humanity based on their mood. I'm still trying to understand how he was instrumental in knowing where to go or what to do. The Council gave him all his assignments. And there are other more experienced Spectres out there who know Saren much more intimately. So no, he's really not intricate.
[/quote]
And that doesn't help ME1's setup that the Council has HUMANS on it.
[quote]
No one but Shepard could have done ME2's side missions on the other hand. The Quarians you deal with because you know Tali (She does not trust Miranda). The Krogans are handled through Wrex. And the Geth through Legion, who has some obsession with Shepard where everyone else utterly hates the Geth. These are unique to Shepard as a person and as such any operative cannot fill these roles.
[/quote]
Shepard: "WATCH ME AND MY LEADERSHIP ZOMBIE POWERS!"
[quote]
This is the point. By virtue of being Shepard, his role in ME1 is irrelevant.
[/quote]
Wow.  What?  Excuse me?

So wait a second.  BY VIRTUE of the POWERS that IS "The Shepard", you're trying to tell me -- you've got the balls -- to tell me, that SHEPARD'S ENTIRE ROLE IN ME1 IS IRRELEVANT?

Smudboy: **** you.

And we're done.

Modifié par smudboy, 20 mars 2010 - 12:04 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

smudboy wrote...

And we're done.

That's what I managed to read from your post amidst all that garbage, which amounted to little more than random smiley faces and jokes, which I think I understand now. You are a troll. You really love ME2, which is why you come up with notoriously bad arguments to defend the original. You really had me going there. But I think I'd rather argue with Jedipilot here. You see, he actually believes ME1 is better, and his arguments are actually really good. =)

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Terraneaux wrote...

I could provide some pretty easy examples of why your viewpoint is wrong, but since you're so emotionally invested in being a fanboi you respond to any attack on your viewpoints as if they were personal threats to you.  There's no hope convincing someone who doesn't listen to logic, so it'd be best if you just quit it.

Then provide them, my little nublet. I'm curious to see what arguments might possibly be forming in that cesspool which you call a mind.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 20 mars 2010 - 09:06 .

[JMA22TB]

Okay here's an idea that I'd like to see happen.



Smudboy, master of all things Mass Effect, plot and story.



Rewrite Mass Effect 2 for all to see how glorious your storytelling and plot formation skills are.



Judging by the pages upon pages of long-winded arguing on your part, it's clear you have the time to think of and create a new alternative.



I challenge you to rewrite the plot of ME2 and post it for all to see and examine. If there is overwhelming positive feedback, then I will gladly say you are a good thinker and writer and BioWare should look into hiring you as a part of their writing team.

[Sigma Tauri]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
The provide them, my little nublet. I'm curious to see what arguments might possibly be forming in that cesspool which you call a mind.

Is it really necessary, serjo?

Oh, who am I kidding? I enjoy this thread. So many new insights, so many arguments.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 20 mars 2010 - 01:39 .

[JMA22TB]

Shandepared wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Smudboy, master of all things Mass Effect, plot and story.

I'll give you my version.

-snip-

Hmmm interesting, but why would you need to recruit anybody? Is this assuming you recruit the same people? How does loyalty play in? What role does your original party play if you're recruiting new members of the team? If you're on the original Normandy then how are you going to fit them on the ship with all the Alliance personnel? Are the Collectors eliminated from the plot as a threat entirely? What of the non-Heretic geth or is it assumed that all Geth are now under the Heretic programming? How do your ME1 decisions carry over?

Lots of questions here, probably more to be asked than that.

Modifié par JMA22TB, 20 mars 2010 - 01:58 .

[Thompson family]

I just want to point out here that some of these replies are longer than most threads.

[Xaijin]

Shandepared wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Smudboy, master of all things Mass Effect, plot and story.

I'll give you my version.


In the aftermath of Sovereign's attack on the Citadel the Council and Systems Alliance are at war with the geth. However as the geth are based beyond the distant Perseus Veil, which lays beyond the Terminus Systems, the Council is unable to make use of their vast (if still crippled) fleets. However they do still have one card to play; they have the Normandy, a ship capable of going anywhere undetected.

The Council comes to the conclusion that to have any hope of destroying the geth they will need some geth experts on their side, and who are the galaxies best geth experts? The quarians, of-course. After all it was a quarian who provided the big break that exposed Saren as a traitor after she hacked a geth memory core. In addition the quarians have a massive fleet that can pass through the Terminus Systems without starting a war. They would be further motivated to attack the geth if they knew that doing so could gain them back their homeworld and as well as an embassy on the Citadel.

So the Council, still believing in the Reapers as they did at the end of the first game sends Shepard and the Normandy out into the Terminus to contact the Migrant Fleet and tell them the plan. The hope is that Shepard's history with Tali will provide a basis to start-up diplomatic relations between the Migrant Fleet and Systems Alliance/Council. When Shepard gets there he finds out that Tali has been sent on a secret mission near geth space; the world of Haestrom.

Shepard goes there and saves her. In the process he learns via' Tali that the geth seem to be up to something again. Exactly what nobody knows, but whatever it is it can't be good. So Shepard returns to the Migrant Fleet and they agree to cooperate with the Council/Systems Alliance. They'll provide their expertise against the geth as well as the bulk of the military forces, and in return Shepard will put together a specialized team to take the Normandy into the Perseus Veil and launch a crippling pre-emptive strike against the geth.

Cue the rest of the game... quite similar to the Mass Effect 2 that was eventually released. In every place that people talk about Collectors they can talk about geth. We go around recruiting people and learning about them. However instead of being interrupted after picking up each batch of squad-mates we can pick all of them up at the start in any order.

When we are all done we're told that the Migrant Fleet's scientists has perfected a weapon to use against the geth. A virus developed by Tali's father and Dora'Xen. If Shepard can get the Normandy into the Veil and inside the dynson sphere the geth have built he can upload it to cause all the geth connected to that hub (the majority of all geth in existence) to overload and die. Once Shepard actually gets there though another option is presented... at the last minute Xen has completed an alternate variation of the virus that will instead of destroying the geth, cause them to become obedient servants of the quarians again.

So Sheprad as a choice...

He can overload most of the geth, destroying them in the process...

Or he can enslave the geth to the quarians, gaining a vast synthetic army to fight the Reapers with.

Either way the hostile geth will be crippled with only a few stragglers left who were not in contact with the main hub.

As he reaches the place where he is to upload the virus Shepard comes to undertand the geth's plan. They were consructing a relay of their own that they planned to use to hail the Reapers and awaken them... and they activated it just before Shepard arrived. A reaper comes through the relay and attacks but at the same time the Migrant Fleet military arrives and they, possibly with the assistance of the re-programmed geth, destroy the Reaper...

The relay hangs there ominiously as we catch a glimpse of thousand of Reapers waking up in dark space...

Credits roll...

Edit: re-wrote my ending because I realized I'd made a plot-hole.

Except that's boring, even more derivative than ME2 is to SC2 and I've already watched BSG and have absoluely no interest in playing it, too.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

monkeycamoran wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
The provide them, my little nublet. I'm curious to see what arguments might possibly be forming in that cesspool which you call a mind.

Is it really necessary, serjo?

Oh, who am I kidding? I enjoy this thread. So many new insights, so many arguments.

Haha, it's probably not necessary at all. I'm already arguing with him in another thread. Glad to entertain though. =p

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...

Okay here's an idea that I'd like to see happen.

Smudboy, master of all things Mass Effect, plot and story.

Rewrite Mass Effect 2 for all to see how glorious your storytelling and plot formation skills are.

Judging by the pages upon pages of long-winded arguing on your part, it's clear you have the time to think of and create a new alternative.

I challenge you to rewrite the plot of ME2 and post it for all to see and examine. If there is overwhelming positive feedback, then I will gladly say you are a good thinker and writer and BioWare should look into hiring you as a part of their writing team.

Easy enough.

For ME2's idea, one thing had to be done: 1) Make it clear.
1) No Cyber Jesus. (Drop the Deus Ex Machina.)  If you must have some kind of experiment, tie it in with SOMETHING.
2) If it's a Dirty Dozen scenario, give us ONE reason why we need them, and THEN SHOW THEM DOING that utility.  (Drop Chekhov's Gun, and (for example) give introductions like Mordin.)  The more they do it, the more reason why we need them.
2a) If we have all these characters, give each at LEAST ONE motivation connected to the main plot (aside from having Mordin JUST being a plot device, and "liking science.")  NO ONE is going to join or be "loyal" to someone if you're asking them TO DIE for NO GOOD REASON, unless it's PERSONAL, even if their situation beforehand was worse (e.g. Jack, Thane, etc.  In ME1, everyone got caught up in the plot as events unfolded for their own reasons.)  Tie this in with relationships and LI's who disagree with you and you've got some heavy duty drama.  (e.g. What if Miranda's dad/sister was one of the colinists?  What if Jacob's dad's planet had infected food over the Collectors?  Contrived, a bit, as with all plots with lots of characters.  You could just have TIM smirking and rubbing his hands in the background.)
3) If it's a Guns of Navarone goal, SHOW and TELL us what, where, who, when, how they work, etc. the Guns of Navarone are, and what we have to do to get there/accomplish that goal, over the course of the story.  (This is basic good storytelling.)  It could've been tracking down parts/building of the IFF, finding and researching Collector bodies, getting their star charts from their ship.  ANYTHING.
3a) Having the dead Reaper would've tied into the Main Plot from ME1 nicely.  It DWARFS the ME2 plot.  But it was a completely wasted effort and raised so many issues and questions, so the answer was to blow it up?  Don't use a jaw-dropping revelation device like this if you can't write properly.
4) If we have a mysterious alien main force/antagonist, give us ONE of their motivations IMMEDIATELY after we know HOW that effects us.  CLEARLY.  (This is the most important.  Sure, colonists disappearing, bad.  WTF are they doing this for again?)
4a) Once we have an established enemy motivation (aka plot), give the antagonist/main force MORE reasons and motivations to do what they do.  This let's us feel a connection to them, and gets us conflicted, giving us MORE drama and conflict, since we're trying to stop them.  Give them some humanity.  (Finding out Collectors were Protheans was the crumb of a massive tragic cake we should've eaten.)
And last but not least:
5) No more stupid plot holes or retcons.  This is a sequel.  Explain how this Collector-sub-plot ties in with the Main Plot which is to Stop The Reapers.  Don't reinvent/re-explain changes in technology or attitudes of entire socieities just to explain your lame subplot/game play mechanic.  Don't give us our enemy (Derelict Reaper) and not know what to do with it.  If one of the Main Plots is to have the enemy procreate, explain why they're procreating, and why/how the ME1 setup didn't go anywhere.
6) Give Shepard a soul.  Have him eat a sandwich.  Pet a dog.  Feel something.  Make me care about him.  Give us a 2) for him, too aside from BioWare's import mechanic.  They had an entire game previous and backstory system to give him a reason to be here.

Modifié par smudboy, 20 mars 2010 - 01:42 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

Not necessarily. As for why you'd need to recruit anyone at all... Well after two years most of Shepard's squad will have broken up. I'd prefer to keep Kaidan/Ashley, but Liara would stay on Ilos looking into the Protheans for any extra clues about the Reapers. Wrex would be stuck on Tuchanka doing his thing. Garrus would have gone off to join the Spectres or C-Sec (perhaps ultimately winding up on Omega?) and Tali would have gone back to the fleet. So Shepard would need a new crew. You're going into uncharted territory and need to be ready for anything. Same as in the released Mass Effect 2.

Hell, if you wanted to keep in the concept of Shepard dying and coming back that can work too. Have the opening mission to Haestrom go violently wrong at the end when Legion attacks. Maybe the Normandy is severely damaged, but not destroyed, and Shepard is "killed". In that scenario I'd have the quarians bring Shepard back (with help of-course) because they're supposed to be masters of cybernetics. Having the Normandy survive it would then make sense that you'd need to upgrade it to avoid an incident like that in the future. Instead what we got was a brand new Normandy that was bigger and better... but apparently still not better enough.

The same role it does now. However I think Tali and Garrus would be exempt from it. You see, I have this twisted idea that they'd both die on the final mission no matter what you did. Or at least one of them would... maybe in a moment similar to the choice on Virmire. It's just an idea. One thing though is that it would not be possible to survive the suicide mission with all of your party members. There could be several such "Virmires" during the mission and maybe a timed element. If you want the most people to survive (say a minimum of four deaths) then you need to pick the right, loyal-people for the right positions and complete the mission as quickly as possible.


Indeed they are. They wouldn't even exist. As it stands I find them potentially interesting enemies, and certainly creepy (Freedom's Progess was an excellent intro mission if for nothing else but atmosphere). It is my opinion that every role the Collectors were created to fill in Mass Effect 2 could have been filled by the geth. I have similar feelings about the Vorcha and an inkling of a feeling about Thane. (I'd make Thane a batarian)

Ahh, now we're getting to the heart of it. The Reaper worshiping geth would be the majority of all the geth, the "real" geth. Legion would start out as one of them but after "killing" Shepard he'd hack his omni-tool and come across Shepard's conversations with Saren and Vigil. Legion would realize that in the end the Reapers were planning to enslave the geth anyway... and so he'd defect and take about 5% of all geth with him. Later in the game, I don't know when exactly (I'm just brain storming a lot of this as a write it) he'd find some way to contact Shepard and attempt to convince him to accept an Alliance. Maybe I'd work the derelict Reaper into the plot in a similar way to how it was used in the final product.

You see I loved the derelict Reaper for the tie-in it had to Klendagon. That was really cool because Klendagon's Rift was one of those things everyone always speculated about and knowing the threat of the Reapers you had to wonder. I'm hoping that in Mass Effect 3 we get some similar tie-ins to other mysteries.

Anyway, I imagine that Shepard and co could be sent to the derelict Reaper to acquire some technology that woudl help them slip into the Veil un-noticed or allow them to dock with the geth hub without being detected. Perhaps they'd go there to gain some tech to be used in perfecting the geth-virus the quarians plan to use. I don't know, we are still reaching a concensus.

In any case, you'd meet Legion and his geth there and perhaps they'd save Shepard's life. Then to prove they can be trusted they give Shepard and co the coordinates to a geth base that, if destroyed, will make the attack upon the geth hub easier. I don't know... still reaching a concensus.

Another note: one thing that annoys me about Freedom's Progress is the prescence of Tali and the other quarians. It feels very contrived and a bit like fanservice. I wouldn't mind it so much if Tali at least joined you there. Instead she coincidentally happens to be there looking for a quarian and then if you never recruit her she vanishes from the game entirely. In the end there was no need for her or the other quarians to be there. The plot would have moved along just as well if Shep and co had found the garbled security feed, and perhaps a stray seeker-bug.

Hmm, just one question and one point I'm curious about. You do mention your squad breaking up after two years. If we're expelling the Shepard resurrection plot, why exactly does your squad leave after being with you for so long?

Other issue is the focus of the main enemy. I loved the Geth, they were incredibly interesting to fight in the first game. But I feel like they would be underwhelming a second time around, especially since Sovereign had merely recruited them because he could not reach the Reaper fleet.
 
I'm not saying the Collectors were much better,  but the reason I found fighting the Collectors more believable is it was refreshing and it showed action by the Reapers in dealing with organics. If we go with the Council/Alliance believes you scenario, having them focus on the Geth feels stale, especially when no mention is given of them preparing for war, etc. Also, how are they still in contact with the Reaper fleet if Sovereign is dead?

[JMA22TB]

smudboy wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Okay here's an idea that I'd like to see happen.

Smudboy, master of all things Mass Effect, plot and story.

Rewrite Mass Effect 2 for all to see how glorious your storytelling and plot formation skills are.

Judging by the pages upon pages of long-winded arguing on your part, it's clear you have the time to think of and create a new alternative.

I challenge you to rewrite the plot of ME2 and post it for all to see and examine. If there is overwhelming positive feedback, then I will gladly say you are a good thinker and writer and BioWare should look into hiring you as a part of their writing team.

Easy enough.

For ME2's idea, one thing had to be done: 1) Make it clear.
1) No Cyber Jesus. (Drop the Deus Ex Machina.)  If you must have some kind of experiment, tie it in with SOMETHING.
2) If it's a Dirty Dozen scenario, give us ONE reason why we need them, and THEN SHOW THEM DOING that utility.  (Drop Chekhov's Gun, and (for example) give introductions like Mordin.)  The more they do it, the more reason why we need them.
2a) If we have all these characters, give each at LEAST ONE motivation connected to the main plot (aside from having Mordin JUST being a plot device, and "liking science.")  NO ONE is going to join or be "loyal" to someone if you're asking them TO DIE for NO GOOD REASON, unless it's PERSONAL, even if their situation beforehand was worse (e.g. Jack, Thane, etc.  In ME1, everyone got caught up in the plot as events unfolded for their own reasons.)  Tie this in with relationships and LI's who disagree with you and you've got some heavy duty drama.  (e.g. What if Miranda's dad/sister was one of the colinists?  What if Jacob's dad's planet had infected food over the Collectors?  Contrived, a bit, as with all plots with lots of characters.  You could just have TIM smirking and rubbing his hands in the background.)
3) If it's a Guns of Navarone goal, SHOW and TELL us what, where, who, when, how they work, etc. the Guns of Navarone are, and what we have to do to get there/accomplish that goal, over the course of the story.  (This is basic good storytelling.)  It could've been tracking down parts/building of the IFF, finding and researching Collector bodies, getting their star charts from their ship.  ANYTHING.
3a) Having the dead Reaper would've tied into the Main Plot from ME1 nicely.  It DWARFS the ME2 plot.  But it was a completely wasted effort and raised so many issues and questions, so the answer was to blow it up?  Don't use a jaw-dropping revelation device like this if you can't write properly.
4) If we have a mysterious alien main force/antagonist, give us ONE of their motivations IMMEDIATELY after we know HOW that effects us.  CLEARLY.  (This is the most important.  Sure, colonists disappearing, bad.  WTF are they doing this for again?)
4a) Once we have an established enemy motivation (aka plot), give the antagonist/main force MORE reasons and motivations to do what they do.  This let's us feel a connection to them, and gets us conflicted, giving us MORE drama and conflict, since we're trying to stop them.  Give them some humanity.  (Finding out Collectors were Protheans was the crumb of a massive tragic cake we should've eaten.)
And last but not least:
5) No more stupid plot holes or retcons.  This is a sequel.  Explain how this Collector-sub-plot ties in with the Main Plot which is to Stop The Reapers.  Don't reinvent/re-explain changes in technology or attitudes of entire socieities just to explain your lame subplot/game play mechanic.  Don't give us our enemy (Derelict Reaper) and not know what to do with it.  If one of the Main Plots is to have the enemy procreate, explain why they're procreating, and why/how the ME1 setup didn't go anywhere.
6) Give Shepard a soul.  Have him eat a sandwich.  Pet a dog.  Feel something.  Make me care about him.  Give us a 2) for him, too aside from BioWare's import mechanic.  They had an entire game previous and backstory system to give him a reason to be here.

These are improvements you suggest but I'm not seeing how you plan to implement them in the story

-If you're suggesting that Shepard is not brought back from the dead, how do you handle the two year time gap? Is there one? What alternative experimentation would you suggest?
-How would you handle each squadmates' reasons for joining? How would you establish the need for their unique skills? How are each connected to the Collector/Reaper plot?
-How would you clearly define the Collector threat that's based on stealth, leaving no evidence, and requires tracking by TIM? How specifically are you going to handle this differently in the story? How would you handle clearing up their motivations within the story? How will you make them a more compelling and tragic opponent like you suggest? You're suggesting great improvements but how about illustrating them?
-Are you suggesting a bigger role for the Derelict Reaper in the story? If you're going to criticize their usage of it, then show us how you'd improve upon it and use it to its fullest potential. How are you going to use it as a plot device?
-The cohesion and clarity of the plot you're suggesting must be close to perfect so show us. If there are no plot holes and no reinvention of previous ideas, what will be the clear and defined difference in how the story plays out? How does the Collector threat relate to Sovereign's plan to unlock the Citadel relay and reboot the cycle? How are you going to handle accomplishing this goal in the story?
-Examples of Shepard's new and improved personality? Illustrate how Shepard becomes more interactive and soulful. I can think of some examples but let's see what you've got as ideas on this. How would you show his/her emotions? Maybe a few new angles in conversation that illustrates how he/she feels about things? 

[VanTesla]

We learn more about the Reapers, more info on the protheans, you cant trust the shadow broker, Cerberus is pulling the earths military strings, the rachni where controlled by the reapers, and etc.

[Knoll Argonar]

Damn, i'm glad I followed this thread. I knew Baladas agreed with my point.



Dude, i'd support you, but I lack the ability. Spanish as I am, i'm proud of my English but understand its limitations. Keep it up LoL

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...
These are improvements you suggest but I'm not seeing how you plan to implement them in the story

-If you're suggesting that Shepard is not brought back from the dead, how do you handle the two year time gap? Is there one? What alternative experimentation would you suggest?

2 years, 2 months, 2 weeks, 2 days, any time to give events like the Collectors doing their deal (they can do a LOT in a day.  Maybe not 100k colonists, but even one colony is enough to rouse suspicion), and Cerberus to conduct their experiment on Shepard.

-How would you handle each squadmates' reasons for joining? How would you establish the need for their unique skills? How are each connected to the Collector/Reaper plot?

Well for one I wouldn't have that many.
-Miranda could end up helping you escape/leave the facility/double crossing you/TIM later, depending on your acceptance of what they did.  (Yeah, original huh?) Since she's a top Cerberus operative, she'd have info to constantly help you where to go next if you don't decide to side with Cerberus/anyone else.  (I like the idea of being able to join a group, or at least, be on good terms with one enough to contact said group of intel.  Why rely on just Cerberus?  Most people of ME1 who know Cerberus, wouldn't exactly want to side with or trust them.)
-Jacob could also be held captive/part of the escape plan/also experimented on.  Jacob and Miranda need a bigger involvement with Cerberus aside from being operatives.  Jacob could've been one of the weapon researchers on that mass effect gun that damaged the Derelict Reaper.  You could be playing the game with this side-quest: constantly finding parts, materials, equipment, etc., to build this anti-Reaper mass effect gun.  Doesn't necessarily have to be tied into the ME2 plot, but you're building a weapon to take on a Reaper.
-It would be perfect if you end up saving Tali instead of Ashley/Kaidan.  (Although there's nothing wrong with having Ashley/Kaidan on a mission to find you, and getting the typical Cerberus/Alliance conflict going.)

Do you see how this goes?  Pretty basic stuff.  Just gotta be creative, and not create characters just because they might look cool in a Sacred Ashes trailer.  I'd imagine siding with a certain group would warrant certain access to squad mates.  (I do recall a dev diary youtube vid where one dev describes Thane as a guy who doesn't snipe people, and instead, Kung Fu's his way to victory.)

-How would you clearly define the Collector threat that's based on stealth, leaving no evidence, and requires tracking by TIM? How specifically are you going to handle this differently in the story? How would you handle clearing up their motivations within the story? How will you make them a more compelling and tragic opponent like you suggest? You're suggesting great improvements but how about illustrating them?

-If you're still a Spectre, you still have free reign.  Since there are so many factions, there could be other avenues for gaining information, and that could be part of an economy/rumor/bribing/info purchasing system a la Shadow Broker/Liara/Miranda/Alliance/Council/Mordin/STG/Turian/etc.  Get some resources, buy info on where to go next.  That could work even with a side-quest dynamic.  Buy the next plot point!  Additionally you could get faulty info on main plot points, and you'd have to have a little side-quest to "launch a complaint..."
-As for learning about the Collector motivations, there has to be something important about Shepard's experiment, visions, cipher, etc., that grants him some understanding/destiny/knowledge that the Collectors were Protheans.  If his Cipher can translate visions into somewhat meaningful ideas and thoughts, maybe it's been changing his brain somehow?  This puts Shepard as a key figure into stopping the Collectors.  Can he communicate with them, even after the Reaper DNA re-write of the Collectors?  He could be having nightmares (oo, original), more visions, communes with (gasp!) Harbinger, the Collector General, etc.  The General Could (who hasn't completely been a husk all these years, instead, living in a prison a la Harbinger) be trying to call out to Shepard after he got his Cerberus experiment finished, and only when Harbinger isn't "controlling" the General does he make some desperate attempt to contact him.  (Of course we could just learn as we go.  There was no reason for EDI not to make a comment about/scanning the Collectors the first time you encounter them on Horizon.  What, does killing enemies always vaporize them?  Then how about the dead Collector where you get the heavy skin weave upgrade?  Couldn't we have found that out then, and then even more tidbits as we find more?)
-Clearly, having a massive ship land on the planet leaving a crater the size of a small forest isn't very stealthy.  Give them shuttles or teleporters or whatever.

-Are you suggesting a bigger role for the Derelict Reaper in the story? If you're going to criticize their usage of it, then show us how you'd improve upon it and use it to its fullest potential. How are you going to use it as a plot device?

Sure. I'd tie it into the Jacob side-quest, but put it into an actual main plot mission where you start collecting various types of evidence (organic, mechanical, technological, digital, etc.)  This would help getting instant faction loyalty or acceptance, so all the various factions and their info brokers go freaking garbanzo for info and tech. the Council can have their day, you can royally screw Cerberus even if you're on good terms with them, and so forth.  We get a whole other plot bit of info on the overarching plot, which of course has some info on the Collectors; like, we see that a particular Reaper who thought organics didn't need to be destroyed and turned into baby-materials, but instead, enslaved and manipulated (Collectors.)  Wouldn't hurt to find some Prothean technology/beacons there, too, that only react to Shepard's Cipher/experiment.

-The cohesion and clarity of the plot you're suggesting must be close to perfect so show us. If there are no plot holes and no reinvention of previous ideas, what will be the clear and defined difference in how the story plays out? How does the Collector threat relate to Sovereign's plan to unlock the Citadel relay and reboot the cycle? How are you going to handle accomplishing this goal in the story?

Easy. Think of all the issues and questions that popped up in your head from ME1.  Take the biggest ones (aside from number 1!), and flesh them out a touch.  Did the Reapers have a 2nd back door?  If so, is there a second Citadel like device?  Do they all have ships?  Do they all live/sit/wait in dark space?  What are they doing there exactly?
The golden rule to keep things "perfect" is to keep them simple and clear.  For example, finding plans of the construction/design of the Citadel would be perfect.  In ME1 you researched the Keepers, but how about the thing itself?
As for the Collector threat, I'm not too sure.  The plot was pure rubbish.  I only saw it as a proxy war which didn't make sense by using servants to harvest organics in a massively stupid and inefficient manner to make a humanoid giant.  I could possibly explain it as Harbinger being some malfunctioned "eccentric/rogue/insane/exhiled/sentenced" Reaper, conducting experiments through his madness, trying to build a cybernetic body?  Because he's CRAZY?  He's gonna play with his massive humanoid giant?  Maybe punishment for killing his bretheren, like that Derelict Reaper?  Insanity does explain many things.  Madness amongst millions of sentient AI, that would be interesting.  Little bit of Reaper culture.  I don't know, I'm just brainstorming here.  That would at least be somewhat believable, even if completely uncomprehensive to anyone.  (When you're working with crap, it's hard to make it look good.)

-Examples of Shepard's new and improved personality? Illustrate how Shepard becomes more interactive and soulful. I can think of some examples but let's see what you've got as ideas on this. How would you show his/her emotions? Maybe a few new angles in conversation that illustrates how he/she feels about things? 

Talk to people.  Have Shepard make choices that are permanent, personal, and thus make him say something like the person he is.  His final statement during his meeting Ash/Kaidan, and the fact he had a picture of a LI in his office was as good as it got.  Did he really like Tali?  "I don't want anyone else, I want you."  That's sweet, but c'mon!  Make the romance actually romantic, flirty, personal, playful, etc.  Choose how to flirt with the LI's (there was some of it, but not enough to get Shepard to be emotional, personally expressive, or concerned.)  The idea of having a counsellor was great.  But Kelly only asked 3 or 4 questions regarding Tali, Garrus, Ash/Kaidan, and herself.  Kelly should've been talking to Shepard about those situations more, since they're the only semblance of personal experiences we've got of him (at least of ME1).  Imagine if he got to sit down with Kelly during that dinner and talk about his feelings, not necessarily for her, but about anything?  If you've got a talking head system with full voice and body actions, give it some heart and soul.
Personally, I thought replacing her with EDI would've been just fine, and having EDI around you all the time would've been an interesting and simple way to get Shepard react and grow in a certain manner.
Other obvious ones are just simple reactions on Shepard doing things that should matter to him.  He can't be all stoic and business.  Actual scenes where (though I don't like it) the use of the P/R system has him/her get emotional.  (I really liked the 7 different reactions you can have at Tali's trial based on P/R, whether you talked to the Admirals, and whether you saved Veetor and Reegar.)

Imagine if you can use a "charge" feature based on your P/R meter to express just how emotional you want to react to something in your P/R.  This would not be too difficult to pull off: That is, the more you charge it (and the more P/R you've accumulated), you can get emotional over a situation, be more expressive, share/talk more info, and that would have the other side react differently (they don't have to be as dynamic, just so long as Shepard gets to do his bit.)  So you can always be P/R in a situation, but the more you have or chage will impact that situation/influence others more.  Also some people don't take well to Renegade/intimidation, or care about Paragon/Charm.  A bit more work on the developers, but they've paved the way for it.  It would also make those Renegade interrupts be a smack on the wrist, or a shotgun blast to the head.

In any event, personalize it.

[ObserverStatus]

Has anyone noticed the similarities between reaper galactic destruction cycles and moderator thread destruction cycles? Maybe the reapers have technology which monitors everything that goes on in the galaxy ever and if they don't complete their destruction cycles, the progress of the organics will crash their servers. I expect to see more parallels in the next game.

[lastpawn]

Yes, ME2 accomplished some things plotwise.



Anyway, I just had to post in this thread because I'm truly in awe that some of the posters here spend what must be hours arguing pointless detail. I'm a patient reader but even I had to give up 1/3 of the way through many of the posts. My hat's off to you sir/m'am, and I envy your ability to waste your time in such a frivolous manner...

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

They have lives of their own and other goals.
Garrus wants to either become a Spectre or join C-Sec.
Wrex wants to go and help his people.
Tali needs to complete her pilgrimage.
Liara has more motivation than ever to get back to digging up Prothean ruins.

Really the only squadmate it would make sense to have stick-around would be Kaidan/Ashley.

The more I think about it, the more I think the only other returning squadmate I'd have come back would be Tali, since her people would figure prominently in the plot. Garrus, Wrex, and Liara would maybe have cameos and then have bigger roles to play in the future. Yeah, something like that I think... 

Here's the issue with this approach as well. The Shepard resurrection wasn't perfect, but it did provide a context for why your party leaves you. You were dead-they had to move on. This sounds more like a mass exodus where 4 of your crew members (including fan favorites) walk out on you. But since no time passes, how much will they possibly develop? The 2 years later gives a context so you can see what Wrex and co. have been doing, how they've changed, etc.

With all the complaints circulating, this needs to be addressed.

Why do you feel they would be underwhelming?

Personally I still don't think we learned anything that was all that important in the grand scheme of things. So the Reapers apparently build themselves from organics... so what? How does that change what we are up against? Personally I thought husks were hint enough of what was to come. I'd have rather saved the big reveal about why the Reapers harvest for the third game. Admittedly in my own version of the story we don't learn anything new about the Reapers really, all that happens with them is we realize is that we've failed to stop them from being allerted and the clock is now counting down.

Alternative plot (which should account for the errors of ME2) issues such as what the Reapers have been doing should be addressed. Your plot variation deals almost exclusively with the Geth, but not until the very end are the Reapers mentioned. How is this different from the way ME2 ends, except we have no additional Reaper info?

The reason why the Geth would feel more underwhelming are

1. We've already dealt with them multiple times (they would need to evolve in some way to remain refreshing).
2. They were a recent tool of Sovereign and have little history with the Reapers. The Council sending you after the Geth just to fight the Geth is pointless.

In comparison, the Collectors are an unknown and a group that you do not encounter on every planet you land on. They have a more established connection to the Reapers (by virtue of once being Protheans) and the goal always remains to learn about the Reapers through them.

Overall, your plotline wasn't bad, if a little too straight-forward.  I think some darker elements and more Reaper integration could be included. Now I hope you don't take this next bit the wrong way, but it's a bit boring. The problem is your plot summary takes everything we learn in ME1...and keeps it at the ME1 level. Nothing evolves, nothing changes. We know what the Geth are like~they act accordingly. We know what the Quarians are like~they act accordingly. The universe itself needs to progress or be expanded on.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 21 mars 2010 - 12:18 .

[JMA22TB]

smudboy's ideas

I underestimated you a bit it seems. These are pretty good ideas, especially utilizing Shepard's mental Cipher imprint and the psych interview with Kelly. The Cipher is particularly good because that's the main thing that allowed you and Liara to find Ilos and, at least speculatively, exhibits Shepard's higher mental fortitude.

The charge idea you have, however, would have to be a bit selective. We don't need Shepard getting irate over everything or mega-emotional, that's going JRPG in characterization lol. Just as an example, using it only on main missions.

As for the Collectors, you don't really have to stick with the whole Reaper construction plot. By your own suggestion, their connection to the Protheans and last shred of sentience could potentially give you insight into millenia of experience with the Reapers.

Taking that idea, you could have the Collector General feign loyalty to the Reapers while giving you the opportunity to get intel on them. Harbinger finds out, has the General start self-destructing their station against his will, while you get EDI to datamine their systems and get a smorgasbord of Reaper information. As for the main mission, have his Collectors still fight you to keep the front, but leave clues for the IFF, the location of the derelict reaper, some shred of information about the Reapers that helps you, etc.

Impressive ideas though.

Modifié par JMA22TB, 21 mars 2010 - 02:46 .

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...
I underestimated you a bit it seems. These are pretty good ideas, especially utilizing Shepard's mental Cipher imprint and the psych interview with Kelly. The Cipher is particularly good because that's the main thing that allowed you and Liara to find Ilos and, at least speculatively, exhibits Shepard's higher mental fortitude.

The charge idea you have, however, would have to be a bit selective. We don't need Shepard getting irate over everything or mega-emotional, that's going JRPG in characterization lol. Just as an example, using it only on main missions.

As for the Collectors, you don't really have to stick with the whole Reaper construction plot. By your own suggestion, their connection to the Protheans and last shred of sentience could potentially give you insight into millenia of experience with the Reapers.

Taking that idea, you could have the Collector General feign loyalty to the Reapers while giving you the opportunity to get intel on them. Harbinger finds out, has the General start self-destructing their station against his will, while you get EDI to datamine their systems and get a smorgasbord of Reaper information. As for the main mission, have his Collectors still fight you to keep the front, but leave clues for the IFF, the location of the derelict reaper, some shred of information about the Reapers that helps you, etc.

Impressive ideas though.

Brainstorming on plot is easy.  I don't think my ideas are all that original or impressive, but that's me.

Focusing on Shepard's willpower is interesting.  That source of willpower, that drive, could easiy tie into the 3 psych profiles the player can choose.  That one other thing that makes Shepard special, and not some kind of mythical, super-soldier sort of quality we see in standard action movies.  Meer and Hale might actually have to see what they're made of, trying to fit into a variety of scenes based on how ruthless, psychologically scarred or self-sacrificing they'd be.

Though I think my brainstorming isn't all that cool, I thought the P/R Charge idea was practical.  It can work with both interrupts and dialog choices, and allows players to control how violent, or how diplomatic you'd need to be in certain situations, instead of having dozens of dialog options.  (Plus the P/R points look like an analog scale.  This would give those "levels" a bit of meaning.)  Renegades could be murderous aggressors, or just silent intimidators.  Paragons could be charming diplomats or simply calm nice guys.  Specific NPCs would react to not only P and R, but its intensity: some would require a little to be influenced, some a lot.  Ditto with interrupts (tap on the shoulder, punch in the head, etc.)  It simplfies the dialog wheel by simply having a meter for how much emotion, or if we're going with the willpower idea, how much "volition", you put into it.  The more Shepard cares and is involved about what he's doing, the more you care and are involved.

Cyber Jesus, and that baby Reaper, I keep shaking my head.  If we had some communication with the Collectors, or whatever humanity was left to them, we could be told a simple story of pathos, as the Collector General is desperately pleading for death, trying to help Shepard along his journey.  Well, anything would be better than a schoolyard bully, taunting us as we shoot him in the head at every turn...

Modifié par smudboy, 21 mars 2010 - 04:02 .

[MintyCool]

I just hope some devs have at least taken a look at this thread as they gear up pre-production for ME3. I agree with many of the things people have said on this topic, I have found the overall plot lacking with ME2. Let's hope ME3 delivers all these hopes we all share.