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[InvaderErl]

http://en.wikipedia....s_Back#Reaction

Modifié par InvaderErl, 14 mars 2010 - 06:37 .

[smudboy]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
For one, you could've listed any sub-character, and they'd have no impact (save maybe Mordin as a plot device) on the Collector threat, which is what the plot in ME2 is all about.  If your argument is, these few sub-plots will greatly impact ME3, then why are they not part of main plot of ME2?  Why must these sub plots be sub plots?  If they are so vital to the telling of a trilogy, why make them so relevant to a game that isn't out yet, yet completely irrelevant to the game they're in?

Ah, I see where you're coming from (or at least I think I do).  You're annoyed because the plot points brought up in Mass Effect 2 didn't always (in fact, didn't often) relate to the main plot of ME2 itself.

I'm choosing to look at Mass Effect 2 in a light of "Okay, what am I doing right now that will make a difference in the final game?"  That's why I consider ME2 a bridging device; Many of the things I do may not affect me right at this moment, but they will make a difference later on.

I understand the argument, but there's no evidence for it (as I've listed in a response to your post before.)

There is no evidence that it will make a difference.

Wait a sec.  There are a few plot points in ME2, and they MOST DEFINITELY relate to the main plot of ME2.  That's kind of what makes them plot points.  Are you referring to side-quests?

Again, I don't see the bridging device(s) you're referring to.  If these sub-quests were directly related and vital to the plot of ME2, then they most definitely would be related to the plot of ME3.

Compre ME1's choices  that carried over: Saving/killing Wrex, killing Kaidan/Ashley, Saving/killing the Rachni, Saving/killing the Council and the DA.  (Although one would argue the vital importance of Wrex, Kaidan and Ashley.)

Now ME2's: Turning on Legion/selling him, Destroying/saving the Collector base (I could be missing some.)

[EricHVela]

As far as I can tell, ME2 sets up the conditions of ME3 (as well as the imported features from ME1).

For example (and just guessing here): No Wrex, no chance of Krogan support in ME3. No queen, no chance of Rachni support in ME3. Helping Shadow Broker in ME1 and failing Liara's mission in ME2, special intel and connections from the ole SB. Denying SB in ME1 and helping Liara in ME2, a chance to take down the SB but no chance to get the intel and connections. Keeping the collector station, getting new tech, but facing a secondary threat engineered by Ceberus (either by accident or intent).

Stuff like that.

I worry, though. ME1 felt rather complete despite the reaper threat hanging. ME2 doesn't feel complete by any means. It feels like 1/2 of a movie. It worries me because some movies have followed the same trend and had lesser 2nd sequels (as ME has) and down-right lousy 3rd sequels (and ME WON'T have).

Maybe it is the fact that the game is being released in pieces or that the main story is interrupted by personal stories whether you want them or not (like a friggin' Sullivan musical).

All I know is that I want ME3's story to return to a style like ME1 with the game-play like ME2 (with further enhancements) and not be piecemealed to us after we have had long enough to finish the game completely.

[JeanLuc761]

smudboy wrote...
I understand the argument, but there's no evidence for it (as I've listed in a response to your post before.)
There is no evidence that it will make a difference.

Wait a sec.  There are a few plot points in ME2, and they MOST DEFINITELY relate to the main plot of ME2.  That's kind of what makes them plot points.  Are you referring to side-quests?

Again, I don't see the bridging device(s) you're referring to.  If these sub-quests were directly related and vital to the plot of ME2, then they most definitely would be related to the plot of ME3.

Fair enough, I'll grant there's no evidence for the argument past the fact it would be complete insanity on the part of Bioware if they DIDN'T go that way.

I was referring more to the loyalty missions in a way since those barely relate to the main plot at all.  Several (not all) set up plots that are looking to impact the final game in a big way.

As for bridging devices, I'm basically referring to any subplot that was created/continued in Mass Effect 2 that didn't see a resolution but almost certainly will in Mass Effect 3.  The Quarian/Geth on the brink of war, Wrex's efforts to unify Tuchanga, the Rachni Queen saying "We will help when you need us."  That kind of stuff.

[MonkeyLungs]

Someone mentioned a page or two earlier that the story felt secondary to the game (I believe it was Smudboy). This was the impression I had when I first played ME2 to completion and after many playthroughs that impression has only grown. I also feel like Bioware was 'winging it' for alot of the process and I seriously doubt the story was very well planned out.



I also get the distinct impression that some people on these forums have applied more critical analysis to their views of the ME Plot than Bioware ever has.



In the end though, it is just a game and it is still way fun.

[Knoll Argonar]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Oh, I wasn't referencing your post, in fact. Sorry, it was a general opinion about some people from these forums.

I didn't read your post, too long and I have cell reproduction issues to study (like Mordin, and listening to music too Lol).

But, well, now that I read it, you do say your opinion, but I disagree: there was almost nothing left to talk about in ME1, since Geth were all evil, Quarians were "somewhere", Krogans were just freelancers and the Genophage cure was erradicated. It's now in ME2 that we have a lot of things to talk about and that CAN affect the entire galaxy for ME3.

That's why I like ME2 as a second act: it's full of cliff-hangers. I hope to get them all solved in ME3 in an awesome way, because there won't be any Squad recruitment or Loyalty mission to talk about in theory.

Don't get me wrong either.  On it's own I LOVE ME2.
  
However purely judged on "is this a good sequel in a plot driven arc" I'm left wanting ....  To summarize I believe that there are too many open plot points to get each point the time [I think] it deserves while still managing to somehow beat the unbeatable army without a pull-it-out-of-your-butt ending.  We'd have been better served addressing more of those open point in ME2.

Oh, well, then it's a matter of trust. I believe Bioware can touch everything in a compelling way, by linking it into the main plot.

[Knoll Argonar]

InvaderErl wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....s_Back#Reaction

Hell yeah xD

[Platypus92]

smudboy wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
For one, you could've listed any sub-character, and they'd have no impact (save maybe Mordin as a plot device) on the Collector threat, which is what the plot in ME2 is all about.  If your argument is, these few sub-plots will greatly impact ME3, then why are they not part of main plot of ME2?  Why must these sub plots be sub plots?  If they are so vital to the telling of a trilogy, why make them so relevant to a game that isn't out yet, yet completely irrelevant to the game they're in?

Ah, I see where you're coming from (or at least I think I do).  You're annoyed because the plot points brought up in Mass Effect 2 didn't always (in fact, didn't often) relate to the main plot of ME2 itself.

I'm choosing to look at Mass Effect 2 in a light of "Okay, what am I doing right now that will make a difference in the final game?"  That's why I consider ME2 a bridging device; Many of the things I do may not affect me right at this moment, but they will make a difference later on.

I understand the argument, but there's no evidence for it (as I've listed in a response to your post before.)

There is no evidence that it will make a difference.

Wait a sec.  There are a few plot points in ME2, and they MOST DEFINITELY relate to the main plot of ME2.  That's kind of what makes them plot points.  Are you referring to side-quests?

Again, I don't see the bridging device(s) you're referring to.  If these sub-quests were directly related and vital to the plot of ME2, then they most definitely would be related to the plot of ME3.

Compre ME1's choices  that carried over: Saving/killing Wrex, killing Kaidan/Ashley, Saving/killing the Rachni, Saving/killing the Council and the DA.  (Although one would argue the vital importance of Wrex, Kaidan and Ashley.)

Now ME2's: Turning on Legion/selling him, Destroying/saving the Collector base (I could be missing some.)

There is also no evidence that these thing won't make a difference in the third game. That is the point really, you have to wait and see then you can judge ME2.

Also I disagree that for this to be a dark second chapter the good guys have to be losing. I believe that ME2 was far darker in its overall tone than ME1.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

BTW: A ME 2 Expansion pack called "Allies" [addressing Krogan, Rachni, Geth, Quarian issues] would likely shut me up nicely if it had about 20 hours + of real playtime.

Hahaha. And you think there's even a single person on this forum that wouldn't love to see something like that?

There is one planned. It's called ME3.

Seriously, I suspect this is exactly what ME3 will be about. Uniting the galaxy for a big ending battle. instead of recruiting squadmates we'll be recruiting allies.

ME2's plot was not about reapers or stopping the collectors, it wsa about Shepard building a team, IMO.

[Lord Coake]

ME2 is the middle of a trilology, so it sufferes from that.  Some of the ME1 storylines get taken care of, but most of it is consolidating all the plot points and preparing the story for it's third installment.

Thats where the incomplete feel of ME2 comes from.  It something that happens to all "middle" stories.  So yes, ME2 accomplished quite a lot, it moved the storyline from ME1 and got the stage set for ME3.  Now, ME2 got a lot of stuff moving, and opened up a hell of a lot of plot, Bioware is really going to have to knock the ball out of the stadium with ME3, and round out the triology with something well and truly epic.

The big downside though, is that after ME3 is completed and gets played for a few months, people will likely more or less forget ME2.  Everyone will remember ME1 for geting the ball rolling, and ME3 for the closing creshendo of awesome.

ME2 will be the forgotten middle child.

[JeanLuc761]

Lord Coake wrote...

ME2 is the middle of a trilology, so it sufferes from that.  Some of the ME1 storylines get taken care of, but most of it is consolidating all the plot points and preparing the story for it's third installment.

Thats where the incomplete feel of ME2 comes from.  It something that happens to all "middle" stories.  So yes, ME2 accomplished quite a lot, it moved the storyline from ME1 and got the stage set for ME3.  Now, ME2 got a lot of stuff moving, and opened up a hell of a lot of plot, Bioware is really going to have to knock the ball out of the stadium with ME3, and round out the triology with something well and truly epic.

The big downside though, is that after ME3 is completed and gets played for a few months, people will likely more or less forget ME2.  Everyone will remember ME1 for geting the ball rolling, and ME3 for the closing creshendo of awesome.

ME2 will be the forgotten middle child.

This, in a lot of ways.  I'm just hoping Bioware can round everything up in the finale like they've been setting up to do.

Also, nobody forgot "The Empire Strikes Back"

[Noilly Prat]

Okay, I really mean this in the most non-trolling and respectful of ways-- I already said that I understand why some would feel that ME2 did little to advance the series' primary story arc-- but I can't help but to think that some of the people who are so convinced ME2's plot was at best unrelated to the overall story of the trilogy or at worst nonexistent are a bit unimaginative.

I don't have the time or desire at the moment, but I could give a point-by-point argument that ME1's main narrative is lacking in depth and breadth.  Of course, personal taste is one thing, but it amazes me a bit that so many people seem to take for granted that ME2 has no story to speak of while defending the first game's entertaining but similarly structured narrative.

For now I'll just repeat that we can only say so much about the relevance (or lack thereof) of ME2's various plot threads to the overall narrative thrust of the whole trilogy without knowing the story of ME3.  I also suspect that some people are, essentially, saying that ME2's story is bad because it is the second part of a trilogy rather than the first part.  (Which is a bit like saying that the second and third movements of a classical symphony are horrible because they introduce new themes while also introducing variations and developments on the original theme and mixing up the tempo and tone of the piece a bit rather than just repeating the original theme ad infinitum.)

[N7Recon]

Warning: Longish Post Ahead
Summary: The plot has been moved forward in a myriad of strategic ways

JediPilot0 wrote...

I think everyone know what the TC meant by his title. If we're moving the goal posts, then you are using a stra man (did ME2 accomplish what I wanted to see in the parts that Bioware forced me to play). It's disingenuous of you to assume people didn't play the side missions.

Straw man? Not at all.  Some wanted to see Shepard address the Reapers directly.  Some wanted to see his/her Spectre status mean more.  Some wanted to see the Council play a bigger role.  Those people got none of those things, and here we are with a thread claiming that the plot didn't move forward because those expectations went unfulfilled.

I say again, if it takes a huge weapon to create a HUGE crator in a planet visible from space to only DAMAGE a SINGLE Reaper, then NO, we accomplished nothing. Nothing we have done will help us stop a huge fleet of Reapers if a singel one can cripple the council fleets and there's enough to "darken the skies of every world", ie millions. We got nowhere. The threat is the same as it was at the end of ME1.

From what is revealed in the first two games...

1. The original reaper disabling weapon is 37 million years old. 
2. An extinction cycle is every 50,000 years. 
3. Each spare-faring civilization builds upon the ruins left behind by the previous space-faring civilization.
4. The original Reaper diabler was built 740 cycles ago and was "massive".
5. A section of the Alliance Fleet was able to take down Sovereign without any such massive weapon.
6. The Normandy SR2 was able to take down a Reaper-teched Collector ship alone.
6b. The Normandy SR2+ was able to take down the Collector ship easily.

What exactly is the reason Turian-developed tech wouldn't be installed on Turian warships as they rebuild?  And what is the reason that tech wouldn't be shared with at least the other Council races?

7. The Quarians have the largest (known) fleet in the galaxy and are preparing for war against somebody
8. The Geth have been constantly developing their mobile platforms and weaponry in preparation for battle against organics, especially the hostile creators (Quarians).
9. The rachni are rebuilding their defensive capability (if they survived)
10. All Council races are rebuilding their military capability (4 races)

11.  Almost every species has some sort of problem with Humanity
12.  Commander Shepard is a symbol of the best of Humanity and so far seems to be the only one who can get some respect from other species despite point 11.

13. Having foiled the plan that worked at least 740 times - invading via
the keepers/Citadel relay - the Reapers attempted to build a better
Reaper to replace Sovereign using the most impressive sentient
species they were aware of - humanity.
14. Having been thwarted in creating a solution within the galaxy, the Reapers cannot use a relay to jump to the center of sentient organisation - The Citadel - and win via confusion and division.  Instead they must waste time and energy moving to the Milky Way under their own power. This gives the rebuilding species time to finish their upgraded fleets, and give the player in ME3 time to do preparations rather than having the Reapers at the front door as soon as the game starts.
15. Moving without a Mass Relay is not free, it costs resources of some kind.
16. Mass Effect cores and kinetic barriers go hand-in-hand.
17. Dark energy + a star = Death to kinetic barriers.

18. There's no reason to believe there are "millions" of Reapers.  Even if one accepts Sovereign's claim that they would 'darken the sky of every world'. Sovereign alone darkened the sky over the Eden Prime colony, and Vigil's account of the Prothean extinction demonstrates that the Reapers took decades to eradicate the Protheans - a single species - and they had to roam from solar system to solar system. They did not take the whole galaxy at once.  If there were millions of Reapers it would not have worked out that way.

The Mass Effect universe is ultimately about Milky Way Sentient Life VS. The Reapers.  The biggest choices you can make are ones that either...
A) Effect the viability of a species to fight The Reapers
Effect the willingness of that species to put aside their political issues to participate in coordinated battle against the Reapers.

So you need to ask yourself, did ME2 have any plot elements that effected A or B or even both?  The answer is a resounding "Yes".  As a matter of fact it is the plot of ME2 that reveals the need for massive cross-species cooperation to defeat the Reapers in full-scale war in the first place! So do not conflate "the Reaper plot didn't move forward as I hoped" with "the Reaper plot did not move forward".

Modifié par N7Recon, 14 mars 2010 - 08:27 .

[Terraneaux]

One of the main problems for me was the Collector threat, which was entirely contained within this game. It seems to episodic; why couldn't we have used Geth or Husks or indoctrinated aliens who can return in the next game to give a feel of continuity. By the end of the game the Collector threat is solved, presumably, but the writers never actually gave us information as to what the **** is actually going on, I guess because exposition or explanation of the in-game setting didn't test well in EA focus groups or anything. You can make an enjoyable narrative experience where the main plot is weak, you just have to focus on the characters and how they change, but Shepard has basically no characterization in this game, even Jacob, tragically born without a personality, gets more emotional screentime.

[Akrylik]

too lazy to read everything new on own thread after returning, but i get the implication that some people believe i don't think there is any importance in certain ME2 plot devices and explanations, Not at all do i believe that, i just don't believe any sort of direct action was taken towards the reapers themselves. ME2 serves the purpose of enriching the story before progression, now it just feels right to begin the reaper conflict, where in ME1 I seriously thought Anderson was in over his head to just decide to "take the fight against the reapers" with no leads (not to mention his authority as a chairman was almost completely handwaved to insignificance by the council). The only problem is, we still have no leads, only more knowledge on the subject and more indirect plot devices which may or may not take place in ME3 against the reapers. For example, obtaining legion, which is essentially obtaining the geth, is an extra asset ME1 doesn't present.

basically, ME2 is a setup for ME3, and the collector plot was a segue.

[JMA22TB]

The Collector threat was more of a problem than people are saying it is



For two years, humans were disappearing and any investigation into it ended up being a shot in the dark until Shepard was brought back from the dead and the assembled team barely pulled off a suicide mission with a lot of help by way of an unshackled AI, Reaper technology, and information collected by Cerberus. Billions of credits were spent to make it happen, which defies basic logic if you spell that plan out to anyone in Council space.



It doesn't seem like it was an 'oh my god we're all gonna die right now' threat because it wasn't meant to be and it is from the perspective of those pulling it all off.



It was a well-informed, stealth operation used the Council's biggest weakness against them: the Terminus systems. The Collectors used the Shadow Broker to attempt to get Shepard's body, so it's likely that they used him or may have indoctrinated him to gather intel for them moving forward. Their deals sustain them financially with the elements in the Terminus that don't ask and don't tell (mercs, slavers, etc). They had a method of transportation that required finding a needle in a haystack to get through (a derelict Reaper? that's a lot of luck).



Foiling that plan doesn't seem that impressive since we saw it happen and it's possible to come through it relatively unscathed, but that doesn't negate how much of a problem it was and how much it took to stop it.

[Akrylik]

JMA22TB wrote...

The Collector threat was more of a problem than people are saying it is

For two years, humans were disappearing and any investigation into it ended up being a shot in the dark until Shepard was brought back from the dead and the assembled team barely pulled off a suicide mission with a lot of help by way of an unshackled AI, Reaper technology, and information collected by Cerberus. Billions of credits were spent to make it happen, which defies basic logic if you spell that plan out to anyone in Council space.

It doesn't seem like it was an 'oh my god we're all gonna die right now' threat because it wasn't meant to be and it is from the perspective of those pulling it all off.

It was a well-informed, stealth operation used the Council's biggest weakness against them: the Terminus systems. The Collectors used the Shadow Broker to attempt to get Shepard's body, so it's likely that they used him or may have indoctrinated him to gather intel for them moving forward. Their deals sustain them financially with the elements in the Terminus that don't ask and don't tell (mercs, slavers, etc). They had a method of transportation that required finding a needle in a haystack to get through (a derelict Reaper? that's a lot of luck).

Foiling that plan doesn't seem that impressive since we saw it happen and it's possible to come through it relatively unscathed, but that doesn't negate how much of a problem it was and how much it took to stop it.

never said the collector threat was insignificant, only that there is still the reaper threat whether or not the collectors are stopped, which still spells inevitable doom against the galaxy if not conflicted. So although the collector existence is consequential, they are still just distracting from the reapers. And since the reaper threat is more significant AND was introduced first, that technically makes the collectors filler, not stupid pointless unimportant filler, but filler none the less.

Modifié par Akrylik, 14 mars 2010 - 09:07 .

[Sesshomaru47]

Well we learned the Protheians didn't die out. Virgil omitted truths...Liara has either gone nuts and is a fully fledged stalker or so deeply in love with you if you cheated, in the next game it will be you in the coffee cup. Kaidan has illogical thought processes and Ashley is a hypocrite. The council hadn't changed, really when they chuffed you off to fight Geth before you died, you figure nothings changed. And no, except Quarians are scared of Geth...It's like a Naruto filler episode, it even had ramen..

[smudboy]

Platypus92 wrote...

There is also no evidence that these thing won't make a difference in the third game. That is the point really, you have to wait and see then you can judge ME2.

Also I disagree that for this to be a dark second chapter the good guys have to be losing. I believe that ME2 was far darker in its overall tone than ME1.

Which is why any argument to ME3/a trilogy becomes an apology to ME2.  "IF ME3 addresses x..."  One game should not have to explain the bad story/story telling of another, especially in a trilogy, and especially not after the fact.

Modifié par smudboy, 14 mars 2010 - 10:21 .

[JMA22TB]

The good guys were losing...badly. The Council was oblivious to what was going on, humans were disappearing by the thousands, and the hero who saved everyone is painted as a goofy doomsayer. The Reapers and their agents had the galaxy right where they wanted them politically at the start of Shepard's resurrection.

[JMA22TB]

Akrylik wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

The Collector threat was more of a problem than people are saying it is

For two years, humans were disappearing and any investigation into it ended up being a shot in the dark until Shepard was brought back from the dead and the assembled team barely pulled off a suicide mission with a lot of help by way of an unshackled AI, Reaper technology, and information collected by Cerberus. Billions of credits were spent to make it happen, which defies basic logic if you spell that plan out to anyone in Council space.

It doesn't seem like it was an 'oh my god we're all gonna die right now' threat because it wasn't meant to be and it is from the perspective of those pulling it all off.

It was a well-informed, stealth operation used the Council's biggest weakness against them: the Terminus systems. The Collectors used the Shadow Broker to attempt to get Shepard's body, so it's likely that they used him or may have indoctrinated him to gather intel for them moving forward. Their deals sustain them financially with the elements in the Terminus that don't ask and don't tell (mercs, slavers, etc). They had a method of transportation that required finding a needle in a haystack to get through (a derelict Reaper? that's a lot of luck).

Foiling that plan doesn't seem that impressive since we saw it happen and it's possible to come through it relatively unscathed, but that doesn't negate how much of a problem it was and how much it took to stop it.

never said the collector threat was insignificant, only that there is still the reaper threat whether or not the collectors are stopped, which still spells inevitable doom against the galaxy if not conflicted. So although the collector existence is consequential, they are still just distracting from the reapers. And since the reaper threat is more significant AND was introduced first, that technically makes the collectors filler, not stupid pointless unimportant filler, but filler none the less.

That's the way the Reapers have worked so far: distractions. Saren and the geth? Tools that ended up being blamed, not the 'myth' that is the truth. The Collectors? Known entity, but, again, without compelling proof they're yet another distraction. Their harvesting plan that worked for so long was another deception: use the center of political power as a weapon against the crops their technology cultivated.

The threat was catastrophic if it was allowed to continue, and stopping it forces the Reapers to change their methods again. If they really are moving in on the galaxy, then maybe Shepard forced their hand, which is a significant step forward to stopping them.

[Yeled]

I agree whole heartedly with the OP. While ME2 introduced some new information, it did little to progress the overall plot of the story. If this were a stand alone game it would have been fine. But it really fails as the middle chapter of a trilogy. And while I think it made some major strides in terms of gameplay, its story was much weaker than other BioWare games. Think about the amazing plots of KOTOR, Jade Empire, Balder's Gate and, yes, ME1. Compared to those, ME2 really pales in comparison.

It also did very little to develop your character further, or any of the other characters of ME1 save Garrus and Tali. It introduced a host of new characters, yes...but honestly that's not what middle chapters are supposed to do in epic trilogies. They are supposed to explore the depth of the relationships established in chapter 1. Think about the progress Luke makes in Empire, and the deepening relationship between Han and Leia. Unless you didn't do a romance in 1 and romanced Garrus or Tali in 2, it didn't do this either.

Overall ME2 was a reset. It was a do over. As a stand alone game, it was ok (if still a bit weak plot wise). But as the middle chapter it fails to move the story forward in any meaningful way. I think that's why I felt a bit disconnected throughout my playthroughs. It just doesn't connect, and I had major problems immersing myself in the story or the game.

Modifié par Yeled, 14 mars 2010 - 09:33 .

[EricHVela]

ME1: Stopping the massive invasion and thwarting a full-grown reaper and people saying: Thanks for saving us and saving the central hub for galactic society!... but the reapers are still out there.

ME2: Killing one embryonic reaper that wasn't threatening the galaxy ("a purely Human matter") and one guy saying: You blew it up! Damn you! -or- Thanks for getting that station for me!... but the reapers are still out there.

I'm just not feeling it with ME2.

[Knoll Argonar]

JMA22TB wrote...

That's the way the Reapers have worked so far: distractions. Saren and the geth? Tools that ended up being blamed, not the 'myth' that is the truth. The Collectors? Known entity, but, again, without compelling proof they're yet another distraction. Their harvesting plan that worked for so long was another deception: use the center of political power as a weapon against the crops their technology cultivated.

The threat was catastrophic if it was allowed to continue, and stopping it forces the Reapers to change their methods again. If they really are moving in on the galaxy, then maybe Shepard forced their hand, which is a significant step forward to stopping them.

Exactly. Don't see why people talk about the Collectors like that -.-