570 réponses à ce sujet

[glacier1701]

In answer to the original question: YES but not in the way most would think.

 Basically the plot in ME1 was that since a Reaper could not activate the main relay bringing in the invasion fleet it had to recruit allies to fight its way in. The hero found out about this plan and stopped it.

 ME2 introduced us to the Collectors. A race repurposed by the Reapers to advance their plans. So why did Sovereign have to recruit allies when the Reapers already had them? In just that a part of ME1 is invalidated. Another thinig that gets added in is that apparently the harvesting of life should have started 2,000 years ago!!! In other words the amount of resistance that could be gathered would have been MUCH less espically as the hero who saved the galaxy is not even alive at that time.

In the end it really seems that ME1 could have been left out and we'd be at the same point as that one left. That is we've stopped the immediate threat but still have a long term one in front of us.

So YES it did something plotwise - it killed off the ME1 plot.

[Akrylik]

JMA22TB wrote...

Akrylik wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

The Collector threat was more of a problem than people are saying it is

For two years, humans were disappearing and any investigation into it ended up being a shot in the dark until Shepard was brought back from the dead and the assembled team barely pulled off a suicide mission with a lot of help by way of an unshackled AI, Reaper technology, and information collected by Cerberus. Billions of credits were spent to make it happen, which defies basic logic if you spell that plan out to anyone in Council space.

It doesn't seem like it was an 'oh my god we're all gonna die right now' threat because it wasn't meant to be and it is from the perspective of those pulling it all off.

It was a well-informed, stealth operation used the Council's biggest weakness against them: the Terminus systems. The Collectors used the Shadow Broker to attempt to get Shepard's body, so it's likely that they used him or may have indoctrinated him to gather intel for them moving forward. Their deals sustain them financially with the elements in the Terminus that don't ask and don't tell (mercs, slavers, etc). They had a method of transportation that required finding a needle in a haystack to get through (a derelict Reaper? that's a lot of luck).

Foiling that plan doesn't seem that impressive since we saw it happen and it's possible to come through it relatively unscathed, but that doesn't negate how much of a problem it was and how much it took to stop it.

never said the collector threat was insignificant, only that there is still the reaper threat whether or not the collectors are stopped, which still spells inevitable doom against the galaxy if not conflicted. So although the collector existence is consequential, they are still just distracting from the reapers. And since the reaper threat is more significant AND was introduced first, that technically makes the collectors filler, not stupid pointless unimportant filler, but filler none the less.

That's the way the Reapers have worked so far: distractions. Saren and the geth? Tools that ended up being blamed, not the 'myth' that is the truth. The Collectors? Known entity, but, again, without compelling proof they're yet another distraction. Their harvesting plan that worked for so long was another deception: use the center of political power as a weapon against the crops their technology cultivated.

The threat was catastrophic if it was allowed to continue, and stopping it forces the Reapers to change their methods again. If they really are moving in on the galaxy, then maybe Shepard forced their hand, which is a significant step forward to stopping them.

Well Saren and the geth wasn't necisarily distracting, they served the purpose as the tools of the Reapers by redirecting the citadel mass relay from the conduit to the mass relay the other Reapers planned to use.
The collectors indeed became a distraction, but that was not their intended purpose, their purpose was to create a human reaper, a completely seperate issue along the lines of wiping the galaxy of all sentient life (though subsequently they are for humans) essentially this was multitasking on the Reapers part. Once again the ONLY actual significance i can see for the human Reaper along the lines of the Reaper plot is if it were to expedite the Reaper invasion, by trying to succeed where Sovreign failed or use some other randomly arising and unwanted plot device.
Perhaps the issues ME2 presented would've been significant if they HAD NOT been resolved, but its not like a theoretical transition between ME1 to ME3 would present some random impossible issue that shouldn't have been ignored (ME2's plot), which would just be downright unfair.

Modifié par Akrylik, 14 mars 2010 - 09:43 .

[Knoll Argonar]

glacier1701 wrote...


In answer to the original question: YES but not in the way most would think.

 Basically the plot in ME1 was that since a Reaper could not activate the main relay bringing in the invasion fleet it had to recruit allies to fight its way in. The hero found out about this plan and stopped it.

 ME2 introduced us to the Collectors. A race repurposed by the Reapers to advance their plans. So why did Sovereign have to recruit allies when the Reapers already had them? In just that a part of ME1 is invalidated. Another thinig that gets added in is that apparently the harvesting of life should have started 2,000 years ago!!! In other words the amount of resistance that could be gathered would have been MUCH less espically as the hero who saved the galaxy is not even alive at that time.

In the end it really seems that ME1 could have been left out and we'd be at the same point as that one left. That is we've stopped the immediate threat but still have a long term one in front of us.

So YES it did something plotwise - it killed off the ME1 plot.

The collectors only have one starship: the one they use to harvest people.

You can't get to the Citadel with only a Starship that the Normandy can destroy and a Reaper. You need allies, you need an army to get there, or an specialist to lure the whole Citadel.

First allies Nazara used seem to be the Rachni, and they failed. Not enought to reveal Nazara, but failed anyway.

So, hmm, no.

[smudboy]

glacier1701 wrote...


In answer to the original question: YES but not in the way most would think.

 Basically the plot in ME1 was that since a Reaper could not activate the main relay bringing in the invasion fleet it had to recruit allies to fight its way in. The hero found out about this plan and stopped it.

 ME2 introduced us to the Collectors. A race repurposed by the Reapers to advance their plans. So why did Sovereign have to recruit allies when the Reapers already had them? In just that a part of ME1 is invalidated. Another thinig that gets added in is that apparently the harvesting of life should have started 2,000 years ago!!! In other words the amount of resistance that could be gathered would have been MUCH less espically as the hero who saved the galaxy is not even alive at that time.

In the end it really seems that ME1 could have been left out and we'd be at the same point as that one left. That is we've stopped the immediate threat but still have a long term one in front of us.

So YES it did something plotwise - it killed off the ME1 plot.

This.

I was just about to ask, how come Sovereign didn't bother bringing their 50k year old slaves with them, and their massive Collector ship.

[smudboy]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Oh, well, then it's a matter of trust. I believe Bioware can touch everything in a compelling way, by linking it into the main plot.

No it's not.  It's a matter of good story telling and writing.

I believe they can't, but I'd like to see them try.

[glacier1701]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...


In answer to the original question: YES but not in the way most would think.

 Basically the plot in ME1 was that since a Reaper could not activate the main relay bringing in the invasion fleet it had to recruit allies to fight its way in. The hero found out about this plan and stopped it.

 ME2 introduced us to the Collectors. A race repurposed by the Reapers to advance their plans. So why did Sovereign have to recruit allies when the Reapers already had them? In just that a part of ME1 is invalidated. Another thinig that gets added in is that apparently the harvesting of life should have started 2,000 years ago!!! In other words the amount of resistance that could be gathered would have been MUCH less espically as the hero who saved the galaxy is not even alive at that time.

In the end it really seems that ME1 could have been left out and we'd be at the same point as that one left. That is we've stopped the immediate threat but still have a long term one in front of us.

So YES it did something plotwise - it killed off the ME1 plot.

The collectors only have one starship: the one they use to harvest people.

You can't get to the Citadel with only a Starship that the Normandy can destroy and a Reaper. You need allies, you need an army to get there, or an specialist to lure the whole Citadel.

First allies Nazara used seem to be the Rachni, and they failed. Not enought to reveal Nazara, but failed anyway.

So, hmm, no.

Hmmm lets see 2000 years ago the Normandy was around? The ONLY way the SR2 has a weapon powerful enough to destroy the Collector ship is because a HUGE fleet was there when the shields on a Reaper fell and they could blast that reaper. 2,000 years ago you only had the Asari and Salarians at the Citadel NO HUMANS NO TURIANS who did all the fighting.

So failed explanation in that regard. Even more so if you realise all they had to do was call ahead and say we heard of this new Council thing - we'd like to join. By the time anyone realised that something is wrong is AFTER the Collectors are killing people on the Citadel.  Oh and of course the tech at that time is not going to be as advanced as it is at the time of ME1.

Modifié par glacier1701, 14 mars 2010 - 10:10 .

[Akrylik]

smudboy wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...


In answer to the original question: YES but not in the way most would think.

 Basically the plot in ME1 was that since a Reaper could not activate the main relay bringing in the invasion fleet it had to recruit allies to fight its way in. The hero found out about this plan and stopped it.

 ME2 introduced us to the Collectors. A race repurposed by the Reapers to advance their plans. So why did Sovereign have to recruit allies when the Reapers already had them? In just that a part of ME1 is invalidated. Another thinig that gets added in is that apparently the harvesting of life should have started 2,000 years ago!!! In other words the amount of resistance that could be gathered would have been MUCH less espically as the hero who saved the galaxy is not even alive at that time.

In the end it really seems that ME1 could have been left out and we'd be at the same point as that one left. That is we've stopped the immediate threat but still have a long term one in front of us.

So YES it did something plotwise - it killed off the ME1 plot.

This.

I was just about to ask, how come Sovereign didn't bother bringing their 50k year old slaves with them, and their massive Collector ship.

 who knows, apparently their assigned job was to make more reapers, not help wipe out the galaxy again. The reapers could find other easily indoctrinatable lackeys to acheive that.

[Knoll Argonar]

"blah blah blah"



Just wait for ME3, boy. Then talk about the trilogy's quality.

[Zhijn]

Pfft, ME2 was a "mini-reboot" and a chance to introduce new people to the ME universe. Why it kinda felt short on the plot-driven story!.

I think anyway. =P

Modifié par Zhijn, 14 mars 2010 - 10:12 .

[smudboy]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

The collectors only have one starship: the one they use to harvest people.

You can't get to the Citadel with only a Starship that the Normandy can destroy and a Reaper. You need allies, you need an army to get there, or an specialist to lure the whole Citadel.

First allies Nazara used seem to be the Rachni, and they failed. Not enought to reveal Nazara, but failed anyway.

So, hmm, no.

Yes, one enormous starship that tore the original Normandy to shreds.masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Collector_Cruiser
"The weapon is powerful and accurate enough to cripple an Alliance Navy frigate in only a few shots."

Collectors = Reaper's allies, 50k years ago.

So hmm.  What was stopping Sovereign from asking Harbinger for a dreadnaught ally, bigger than itself to help on the siege of the Citadel?

[Akrylik]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

"blah blah blah"

Just wait for ME3, boy. Then talk about the trilogy's quality.

I am, but currently ive got nothing else to do while waiting 

[Knoll Argonar]

glacier1701 wrote...

Hmmm lets see 2000 years ago the Normandy was around? The ONLY way the SR2 has a weapon powerful enough to destroy the Collector ship is because a HUGE fleet was there when the shields on a Reaper fell and they could blast that reaper. 2,000 years ago you only had the Asari and Salarians at the Citadel NO HUMANS NO TURIANS who did all the fighting.

So failed explanation in that regard. Even more so if you realise all they had to do was call ahead and say we heard of this new Council thing - we'd like to join. By the time anyone realised that something is wrong is AFTER the Collectors are killing people on the Citadel.

What? *Confused*

The SR2 could take down a collector Ship without any upgrades. You are quite confused or typoed the whole post.

Again, only 1 starship. vs and Entire Fleet.

[Akrylik]

Zhijn wrote...

Pfft, ME2 was a "mini-reboot" and a chance to introduce new people to the ME universe. Why it kinda felt short on the plot-driven story!.

I think anyway. =P

This, chronological reboot is exactly what i would call ME2, along with its own seperate plot to drive the action and actually give it a story.

[Knoll Argonar]

Akrylik wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

"blah blah blah"

Just wait for ME3, boy. Then talk about the trilogy's quality.

I am, but currently ive got nothing else to do while waiting 

Oh, sorry then. Please continue

[smudboy]

Akrylik wrote...

who knows, apparently their assigned job was to make more reapers, not help wipe out the galaxy again. The reapers could find other easily indoctrinatable lackeys to acheive that.

Yes but you're missing the point.

Collectors = Reaper lackeys.

Where were they during the siege of the Citadel?  If Harbinger can remotely control his lackeys, why wouldn't he help out Sovereign start the next cycle of destruction, especially if they knew they were having problems and were actually looking for help?  Did they simply forget they have an enormous ship?

The Reapers don't need to bother indoctrinating any else: they already have the Collectors!  That have a massive ship!

[glacier1701]

Akrylik wrote...

smudboy wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...


In answer to the original question: YES but not in the way most would think.

 Basically the plot in ME1 was that since a Reaper could not activate the main relay bringing in the invasion fleet it had to recruit allies to fight its way in. The hero found out about this plan and stopped it.

 ME2 introduced us to the Collectors. A race repurposed by the Reapers to advance their plans. So why did Sovereign have to recruit allies when the Reapers already had them? In just that a part of ME1 is invalidated. Another thinig that gets added in is that apparently the harvesting of life should have started 2,000 years ago!!! In other words the amount of resistance that could be gathered would have been MUCH less espically as the hero who saved the galaxy is not even alive at that time.

In the end it really seems that ME1 could have been left out and we'd be at the same point as that one left. That is we've stopped the immediate threat but still have a long term one in front of us.

So YES it did something plotwise - it killed off the ME1 plot.

This.

I was just about to ask, how come Sovereign didn't bother bringing their 50k year old slaves with them, and their massive Collector ship.

 who knows, apparently their assigned job was to make more reapers, not help wipe out the galaxy again. The reapers could find other easily indoctrinatable lackeys to acheive that.

It begs the question that since we KNOW that the Collectors are in contact with the reapers out in dark space and that things started falling apart 2000 years. And coupled with that ME3 is not going to be set 20 years from the date of ME2 why didnt Sovereign just call in the troops 2000 year ago? By now it would be all over. Instead the races have had 2000 years extra time to develop technology. Not exactly great thinking here.

[glacier1701]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...

Hmmm lets see 2000 years ago the Normandy was around? The ONLY way the SR2 has a weapon powerful enough to destroy the Collector ship is because a HUGE fleet was there when the shields on a Reaper fell and they could blast that reaper. 2,000 years ago you only had the Asari and Salarians at the Citadel NO HUMANS NO TURIANS who did all the fighting.

So failed explanation in that regard. Even more so if you realise all they had to do was call ahead and say we heard of this new Council thing - we'd like to join. By the time anyone realised that something is wrong is AFTER the Collectors are killing people on the Citadel.

What? *Confused*

The SR2 could take down a collector Ship without any upgrades. You are quite confused or typoed the whole post.

Again, only 1 starship. vs and Entire Fleet.

I forget that some people dont upgrade the Normandy guns. But all this applies to an attack AT THE PRESENT ME1-ME2 time. 2,000 years ago you ONLY had the Asari and Salarians and a lot less advanced technology.

[Akrylik]

smudboy wrote...

Akrylik wrote...

who knows, apparently their assigned job was to make more reapers, not help wipe out the galaxy again. The reapers could find other easily indoctrinatable lackeys to acheive that.

Yes but you're missing the point.

Collectors = Reaper lackeys.

Where were they during the siege of the Citadel?  If Harbinger can remotely control his lackeys, why wouldn't he help out Sovereign start the next cycle of destruction, especially if they knew they were having problems and were actually looking for help?  Did they simply forget they have an enormous ship?

The Reapers don't need to bother indoctrinating any else: they already have the Collectors!  That have a massive ship!

Perhaps the hubris of Sovreign made him believe he could handle it himself by indoctrinating Saren and the geth and using them. the collectors were probably busy (finding canidates for) building Reapers, so apparently the Reapers didn't see why they had to use occupied slaves when they could easily get more. Though unfortunately for the Reapers the new slaves weren't good enough.

Modifié par Akrylik, 14 mars 2010 - 10:23 .

[Zhijn]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Akrylik wrote...

Zhijn wrote...

Pfft, ME2 was a "mini-reboot" and a chance to introduce new people to the ME universe. Why it kinda felt short on the plot-driven story!.

I think anyway. =P

This, chronological reboot is exactly what i would call ME2, along with its own seperate plot to drive the action and actually give it a story.

Out of curiosity, along what lines would you like to have seen ME2 acclomplish plotwise?

Thats not up to us to decide!.

But in short, i'd spend more time learning about the collectors and reapers rather then being my crews nanny.

Modifié par Zhijn, 14 mars 2010 - 10:24 .

[Knoll Argonar]

glacier1701 wrote...

It begs the question that since we KNOW that the Collectors are in contact with the reapers out in dark space and that things started falling apart 2000 years. And coupled with that ME3 is not going to be set 20 years from the date of ME2 why didnt Sovereign just call in the troops 2000 year ago? By now it would be all over. Instead the races have had 2000 years extra time to develop technology. Not exactly great thinking here.

If this is all about ranting/especulation, i'd just say that , maybe:

1- all sentient species in the Galaxy weren't in conection with the Citadel, so it was redundant to destroy one species when a few centuries later a new one would colonise the Citadel.

2- humans are a Reaper-motivator, since they create good Goo to create them. Same with the Rachni, that's why they attacked at that time.

3- because they didn't wanted so =/

[JMA22TB]

Yeled wrote...

I agree whole heartedly with the OP. While ME2 introduced some new information, it did little to progress the overall plot of the story. If this were a stand alone game it would have been fine. But it really fails as the middle chapter of a trilogy. And while I think it made some major strides in terms of gameplay, its story was much weaker than other BioWare games. Think about the amazing plots of KOTOR, Jade Empire, Balder's Gate and, yes, ME1. Compared to those, ME2 really pales in comparison.

It also did very little to develop your character further, or any of the other characters of ME1 save Garrus and Tali. It introduced a host of new characters, yes...but honestly that's not what middle chapters are supposed to do in epic trilogies. They are supposed to explore the depth of the relationships established in chapter 1. Think about the progress Luke makes in Empire, and the deepening relationship between Han and Leia. Unless you didn't do a romance in 1 and romanced Garrus or Tali in 2, it didn't do this either.

Overall ME2 was a reset. It was a do over. As a stand alone game, it was ok (if still a bit weak plot wise). But as the middle chapter it fails to move the story forward in any meaningful way. I think that's why I felt a bit disconnected throughout my playthroughs. It just doesn't connect, and I had major problems immersing myself in the story or the game.

Respectfully, I can challenge every single point you just made.

Ashley or Kaidan can potentially turn into your biggest Alliance ally or rival, depending on your path you take with Cerberus. If you destroy the base, you're cutting ties with Cerberus and making due on your promise to your friend to do the right thing. If you keep the base and stick up for Cerberus through your actions, they and that do-gooder part of the Alliance will probably see you as an enemy. I'd say that's pretty compelling. Wrex is now the most influential figure among the Krogan; take the time to listen to the plan he has for his people. You take out possibly Urdnot's biggest roadblock in Weyrloc and enlist a biological marvel to their clan with Grunt, also taking out an annoying political thorn in his side that would betray him in Gatatog. 

The Luke comparison here is hard to apply. Luke was an ignorant kid with a great destiny and needed to be taught and tempered for that role. Shepard does not. His destiny is galactic salvation, not taking down a tyrant and his smothering Empire. The stories are completely different, even though both are space odyssey's of heroes.

It moved the plot forward by taking out a threat that no one else could have found. The Collectors were basically operating with a comfortable cushion, leaving no evidence of their involvement and sticking to part of space that the offical political power is terrified to mess with, the Terminus. If they continued to do this untouched, humanity would push for action against the blamed enemies, possibly starting a galactic conflict. That would greatly weaken the species that the Reapers are already actively trying to wipe out anyway, furthering their plan. Additionally, it's not like humanity is going to stop colonizing if the abductions continued, they'd be walking into trap after trap. The Shadow Broker, as we see in the comic, would not give up intel on the Collectors because they pay him so well. That means their deals get them tons of credits, so they had all bases covered until Cerberus and Shepard took them down by SURPRISE.

The way it moved forward was not cliched or predictable, which would really be filler. Shepard doesn't work with the 'good guys' in ME2. He is either liberated from them by someone who finally believes him and wants to fight the real enemy using their own weapons agains them (renegade) or has to settle for working with self-serving scum that Shepard knows only looks out for themselves and could care less about other races (paragon). You have to take out an enemy that doesn't pound its chest and say 'we're here try to stop us,' they're smarter than that. At the beginning you hardly know anything other than they have a defense that no one has ever breached. In the end, you gain more information about the Reapers but hardly enough to feel confident that you're going to win decisively.

You gain rapport with the deadliest team of trained fighters in the galaxy outside of the Spectres, a ship that is essentially an equivalent of a small-scale Reaper on your side with EDI unshackled, and end a threat that might have sent the galaxy into a huge war that would have facilitated the Reapers' goal of harvest, in addition to humanity becoming processed and made extinct into Reaper form. You gain allies throughout the story across the spacefaring galaxy, potentially a treasure chest of information on the Reapers if you keep the base, and likely the support of the Alliance and Council if you destroy it, wth EDI very likely able come up with enough evidence to prove the Reapers exist.

I think they did a great job in ME2 of moving forward, even if they didn't do a Master Li's betrayal, PC is actually Revan style plot twist.

[Akrylik]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Akrylik wrote...

Zhijn wrote...

Pfft, ME2 was a "mini-reboot" and a chance to introduce new people to the ME universe. Why it kinda felt short on the plot-driven story!.

I think anyway. =P

This, chronological reboot is exactly what i would call ME2, along with its own seperate plot to drive the action and actually give it a story.

Out of curiosity, along what lines would you like to have seen ME2 acclomplish plotwise?

confirmed discovery of some significant plot device or actually hindering the reaper's plans of galactic ahnihilation.
keeping the collector base could possibly be said plot device, but i was hoping for something along the lines of "hey guys check out this *insert significant plot device*, the reapers are screwed now!" only not nearly as poorly excecuted, you get the idea.

[smudboy]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

"blah blah blah"

Just wait for ME3, boy. Then talk about the trilogy's quality.

We can evaluate what we've got right now.

ME1 beautiful
ME2 an improvement on game play and a destruction/ignorance of the trilogy plot (stop the Reapers.)

If ME3 even tries to tie up all the holes in ME2, it'll be something akin to MGS4.  Quantity (just to take the time to explain all the questions) over quality.  Worse still, if the writers can pull a James Joyce "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man".

If they're going to do a trilogy, they should know wth is going on.

Modifié par smudboy, 14 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[smudboy]

Akrylik wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Akrylik wrote...

who knows, apparently their assigned job was to make more reapers, not help wipe out the galaxy again. The reapers could find other easily indoctrinatable lackeys to acheive that.

Yes but you're missing the point.

Collectors = Reaper lackeys.

Where were they during the siege of the Citadel?  If Harbinger can remotely control his lackeys, why wouldn't he help out Sovereign start the next cycle of destruction, especially if they knew they were having problems and were actually looking for help?  Did they simply forget they have an enormous ship?

The Reapers don't need to bother indoctrinating any else: they already have the Collectors!  That have a massive ship!

Perhaps the hubris of Sovreign made him believe he could handle it himself by indoctrinating Saren and the geth and using them. the collectors were probably busy (finding canidates for) building Reapers, so apparently the Reapers didn't see why they had to use occupied slaves when they could easily get more. Though unfortunately for the Reapers the new slaves weren't good enough.

If anything, ME2 has taught us the Reapers are a bunch of morons.  For million year old sentient super-machines.