314 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Weapons and ammo are murch more powerful than the powers.

You're right that powers in and of themselves don't do as much damage as weapons. But ammo powers in and of themselves seem to be worse in terms of DPS than powers, and you'd be using powers alongside of weapons. I've done some DPS calculation for powers at different levels and with different upgrades, versus the bonuses you get from ammo powers. A fully upgraded Unstable Warp does 120 DPS to armor; that's base damage multiplied by 50% (5/5 upgrades) and another 100% (armor bonus) divided by an upgraded cooldown (5 sec). Ammo power damage bonuses depend only on the gun you're using and the level of ammo power, since ammo powers provide a fixed bonus to the base damage that doesn't affect other bonuses. For example, squad AP ammo gives about 125 bonus damage per second for Revenant or 108 for Tempest, and that's assuming all shots hit.

Modifié par cruc1al, 17 mars 2010 - 12:53 .

[Roxlimn]

Your estimates, cruc1al also don't factor in insta-kill effects, singly or in multiples, from power use.



On the whole, I don't find it necessarily faster or easier to finish the game with a Soldier than I do with an Adept, particularly on maps like the Suicide Mission Tech Run. Where multiple targets are concerned, it seems faster to me to just cheese them with area powers.

[cruc1al]

Roxlimn wrote...

Your estimates, cruc1al also don't factor in insta-kill effects, singly or in multiples, from power use.

True, it's strictly a measure of DPS on a single target. However if that target is insta-killed, it doesn't change the DPS because you'll have to wait for cooldown anyway.

[Lycidas]

Roxlimn wrote...

Your estimates, cruc1al also don't factor in insta-kill effects, singly or in multiples, from power use.

On the whole, I don't find it necessarily faster or easier to finish the game with a Soldier than I do with an Adept, particularly on maps like the Suicide Mission Tech Run. Where multiple targets are concerned, it seems faster to me to just cheese them with area powers.

I totally agree the suicide mission is fun for the Adept. The problem is in this very mission there is no downside to having a biotic only squad and thus you are able to use biotics all the time. Compare this to Talis or Legions loyalty missions. Those 2 still give me nightmares playing as an Adept.

[Roxlimn]

Those missions aren't so bad. You just need to not play like an Adept for a while - because Adepts suck against Geth.

[Hyunsai]

I just did Tali's recrutement mission in Insanity (with Garrus and Miranda), it was a Breeze, and played it like an adept...



Strip defenses, pull, boom, some singularity to hit some guys in cover or to stop some Destroyers or Hunters coming close, occasionnaly use of SMG... Even the three Geth Prime were not such a problem...



So far, I found 2 fights pretty hard : The 2 scions + husks at the end of Horizon, and the end of Grunt recruitment mission (Ymir, rocket launcher boss and charging Krogan).



I was afraid of this adept run in insanity, but I find this even easier and fun than my first Veteran run... Go figure... Perhaps it will change later...

[VirtualAlex]

If you get good at this game, anything is possible, and totally do-able. Including no-gun runs, and no-power runs. So I feel like all of this talk is pretty silly. If some classes are less powerful by design, or incidentally, it still doesn't matter because it's a single player game and no one has an advantage over anything.

[munrohk]

So would anyone actually be opposed to overhauling adept/engineer powers and combat ethos?



I've been of the opinion that any improvement is a good thing, but the more I think about it the more I want Bioware to take a risk and try to make the adept play more true to the way they're portrayed in cutscenes and set pieces. Even if it means going back to the drawing board on them.

[VirtualAlex]

If the game is balanced to the normal difficulty level, then I think adepts play just as intended.



To fix them on higher difficulties they need to add a %chance to pierce defenses on powers. I think that would do the trick.

[sinosleep]

I just made a new engineer. No points in defense stripping abilities except for the 1 in overload that is mandatory. It's been a blast. I shoot away defense with guns (which clearly is intended since all guns have some kind of modifier against some kind of defense) and have been using cryo blast (which is also clearly meant to be used in concert with guns being as that's what it provides a boost to) and it's been hella fun. The engineer IS a gun class no matter how you slice it. it's got overload and incinerate both of which are CLEARLY defense stripping powers and not damage powers, then you've got the aforementioned cryo blast which provides, once again, a weapon damage boost when it's applied. The engineer is NOT a power class, it's a gun class. The adept is the only true power class.

[SantosCapela]

sinosleep wrote...

I just made a new engineer. No points in defense stripping abilities except for the 1 in overload that is mandatory. It's been a blast. I shoot away defense with guns (which clearly is intended since all guns have some kind of modifier against some kind of defense) and have been using cryo blast (which is also clearly meant to be used in concert with guns being as that's what it provides a boost to) and it's been hella fun. The engineer IS a gun class no matter how you slice it. it's got overload and incinerate both of which are CLEARLY defense stripping powers and not damage powers, then you've got the aforementioned cryo blast which provides, once again, a weapon damage boost when it's applied. The engineer is NOT a power class, it's a gun class. The adept is the only true power class.

Well they are all gun classes for me. The fact is that with soldier I was always shotting and with engineer I am not. By the way I like engineer the best and it seems easier to me in insanity. Maybe I'm getting better at insanity! Didn't play adept yet but from what I've read it is a class without defense stripping abilities right? If so then it is also a gun class since it has to use weapons for defense stripping if we ignore squad mates. I also like very much area overload and don't usually use cryo. Maybe in another playthrough I'll try a cryo based engineer...

[Hyunsai]

Incorrect : Adept is a class without shield stripping abilities. No problem with armor or barriers.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

VirtualAlex wrote...

If you get good at this game, anything is possible, and totally do-able. Including no-gun runs, and no-power runs. So I feel like all of this talk is pretty silly. If some classes are less powerful by design, or incidentally, it still doesn't matter because it's a single player game and no one has an advantage over anything.

So you've played the entire game as an adept without firing a shot on insanity? Really? I'm not saying you are lying, but I am highly doubtful. I try as much as possible to not use guns with adepts, but it just can't be avoided.  

Lots and lots of folks have complainged about adepts being gimped soldiers on this board and on others. Bioware can ignore it or fix it. Their choice.

Edit: I'd like to see some video from various areas of you not firing a shot with an adpet on insanity. Let's start off with Tali's loyalty mission. It is not that long. Oh, no bonus powers please as I want the adept class showcased.

Those missions aren't so bad. You just need to not play like an Adept for a while - because Adepts suck against Geth.

Doesn't that demonstarte that something needs fixing about adepts?

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 18 mars 2010 - 01:38 .

[SantosCapela]

Hyunsai wrote...

Incorrect : Adept is a class without shield stripping abilities. No problem with armor or barriers.

Ah forgot warp! Must play the class...

[munrohk]

The original vision for the Engineer was for it to be a support class.  Mass Effect 1 had those little tech/biotic/combat graphs, and Engineer Shepard and Tali were full tech.

In ME2 they blurred the lines, did away with those graphs, gave each character their own build, and gave Shepard's 6 class options overhauls.  Now the Engineer's role in combat is more gunnery-dependent, and that works fine just like the adept works fine. 

The point is that they could be better.  There are 3 excellent gunnery classes with distinctly different combat styles, the Engineer and Adept could both do with being radically overhauled the same way Vanguards and Infiltrators were.

No one complains about the changes made to vanguards and infiltrators because they are both truer to the way they were intended to be.  No reason the same can't be done for Adepts and Engineers.

[Hyunsai]

SantosCapela wrote...

Hyunsai wrote...

Incorrect : Adept is a class without shield stripping abilities. No problem with armor or barriers.

Ah forgot warp! Must play the class...

No problem...

Anyway I don't see the problem with adept using guns, they got Heavy Pistols, SMG, and another choice in collector ship, like Sentinel and Engineer. The class is not gimped in anyway, some players want to gimp the class not using what the game offers.

Like I said, Tali recruitment mission on insanity can be done playing like an adept, and I used ocasionnaly SMG just to speed up some things, so... Perhaps the loyalty mission is A LOT harder...

Modifié par Hyunsai, 19 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[Urazz]

munrohk wrote...

The original vision for the Engineer was for it to be a support class.  Mass Effect 1 had those little tech/biotic/combat graphs, and Engineer Shepard and Tali were full tech.

In ME2 they blurred the lines, did away with those graphs, gave each character their own build, and gave Shepard's 6 class options overhauls.  Now the Engineer's role in combat is more gunnery-dependent, and that works fine just like the adept works fine. 

The point is that they could be better.  There are 3 excellent gunnery classes with distinctly different combat styles, the Engineer and Adept could both do with being radically overhauled the same way Vanguards and Infiltrators were.

No one complains about the changes made to vanguards and infiltrators because they are both truer to the way they were intended to be.  No reason the same can't be done for Adepts and Engineers.

I dunno,  They both aren't fast at killing stuff on Insanity like the gunnery classes but they definately tend to play safer.   Especially if you get a bonus power that offsets their weaknesses somewhat.

[munrohk]

Urazz wrote...

munrohk wrote...

The original vision for the Engineer was for it to be a support class.  Mass Effect 1 had those little tech/biotic/combat graphs, and Engineer Shepard and Tali were full tech.

In ME2 they blurred the lines, did away with those graphs, gave each character their own build, and gave Shepard's 6 class options overhauls.  Now the Engineer's role in combat is more gunnery-dependent, and that works fine just like the adept works fine. 

The point is that they could be better.  There are 3 excellent gunnery classes with distinctly different combat styles, the Engineer and Adept could both do with being radically overhauled the same way Vanguards and Infiltrators were.

No one complains about the changes made to vanguards and infiltrators because they are both truer to the way they were intended to be.  No reason the same can't be done for Adepts and Engineers.

I dunno,  They both aren't fast at killing stuff on Insanity like the gunnery classes but they definately tend to play safer.   Especially if you get a bonus power that offsets their weaknesses somewhat.

That's because reliance on gunplay increases with difficulty.  Whether that's deliberate or not, I would have enjoyed it more if insanity tested your skill at powers (decision making, not aiming) more.  It probably does that to a certain extent, but you don't notice it much when you're busy shooting non-stop.

[tonnactus]

Lycidas wrote...
 Compare this to Talis or Legions loyalty missions. Those 2 still give me nightmares playing as an Adept.

Why?Singularity stops geth hunters.And they are the only dangerous enemies in those missions.They ignore the drone of the engineer...

[tonnactus]

Hyunsai wrote...

Incorrect : Adept is a class without shield stripping abilities..

Singularity and warp destroy a amount of shields.(warp remove a half instantly,but using singularity is better,even if it is slower/but it take a enemie out of a fight)
Warp is effective against armor and barrier.

[Hyunsai]

You're right, I should have sayed they got nothing doing double damage against Shields.


By the way, is it true that an enemy under singularity takes more weapon damage ? I ve got the feeling of hearing it in a Gatsby video, but I m not sure...

Modifié par Hyunsai, 20 mars 2010 - 09:30 .

[tonnactus]

Hyunsai wrote...

You're right, I should have sayed they got nothing doing double damage against Shields.


By the way, is it true that an enemy under singularity takes more weapon damage ? I ve got the feeling of hearing it in a Gatsby video, but I m not sure...

I think it was pull.But for sure pull stops health regeneration.

[Kurupt87]

Hyunsai wrote...

You're right, I should have sayed they got nothing doing double damage against Shields.


By the way, is it true that an enemy under singularity takes more weapon damage ? I ve got the feeling of hearing it in a Gatsby video, but I m not sure...

From warp ammo probably, I don't think someone under a singularity effect but still with protection counts as ragdolled.

[Athenau]

I've done some DPS calculation for powers at different levels and with different upgrades, versus the bonuses you get from ammo powers. A fully upgraded Unstable Warp does 120 DPS to armor; that's base damage multiplied by 50% (5/5 upgrades) and another 100% (armor bonus) divided by an upgraded cooldown

The problem with this is that it doesn't take into account the opportunity cost of using a power. You stop shooting during the animation, so the damage done has to be weighted against the damage lost from not shooting for a second or so. Ammo powers, on the other hand, just stack on top of your gun damage.

[tonnactus]

Athenau wrote...

I've done some DPS calculation for powers at different levels and with different upgrades, versus the bonuses you get from ammo powers. A fully upgraded Unstable Warp does 120 DPS to armor; that's base damage multiplied by 50% (5/5 upgrades) and another 100% (armor bonus) divided by an upgraded cooldown

The problem with this is that it doesn't take into account the opportunity cost of using a power. You stop shooting during the animation, so the damage done has to be weighted against the damage lost from not shooting for a second or so. Ammo powers, on the other hand, just stack on top of your gun damage.

You dont shoot permantly.(not on insanity with 5-6 people shooting at you)