314 réponses à ce sujet

[Average Gatsby]

Hyunsai wrote...

You're right, I should have sayed they got nothing doing double damage against Shields.


By the way, is it true that an enemy under singularity takes more weapon damage ? I ve got the feeling of hearing it in a Gatsby video, but I m not sure...

When a target is affected by biotics, which means it is surrounded in a blue aura and floating around (which can be done by pull, singularity, or the rising motion on slam), then the target takes 100% more weapon damage.

In addition to that, the effects of warp ammo are doubled. So heavy warp ammo would do 100% damage to the target instead of normally 50%.

A target takes no additional weapon or power damage just by being stun locked by singularity. Basically, if you can warp detonate a target, it is in a position to take a 100% weapon damage boost.

Modifié par Average Gatsby, 20 mars 2010 - 11:16 .

[Athenau]

You dont shoot permantly.(not on insanity with 5-6 people shooting at you)

No you don't, but if you're able to pop out of cover to use a power, you're able to pop out of cover to shoot for a bit to. Using active powers is always at the cost of shooting, while ammo powers just make your shooting better.

[Roxlimn]

Athenau:



Not at all. Using active powers is at the cost of a minimal amount of shooting. The actual amount of shooting you could do instead of using an active power is negligible. If you go around the game with the intent of using your guns as a main source of offensive firepower, you shouldn't be playing a power class.

[tonnactus]

Athenau wrote...

You dont shoot permantly.(not on insanity with 5-6 people shooting at you)

No you don't, but if you're able to pop out of cover to use a power, you're able to pop out of cover to shoot for a bit to. Using active powers is always at the cost of shooting, while ammo powers just make your shooting better.

Enemies use cover.Powers(like pull) mooves enemies in better/easier position to shoot them.Or singularity holds them in place.Drone force them out of cover.

[Athenau]

Not at all. Using active powers is at the cost of a minimal amount of shooting. The actual amount of shooting you could do instead of using an active power is negligible. If you go around the game with the intent of using your guns as a main source of offensive firepower, you shouldn't be playing a power class

It isn't negligible. Even a second's worth of shooting adds up to a lot of damage. 1 second of Tempest fire is ~212 damage, 1 second of Revenant fire is ~248 damage, 1 second of viper fire is 320(!) damage, that's without counting things like range multipliers and headshots. Sure a heavy reave or warp against armor or barrier might (depending on how the weapon penetration upgrades work) do a bit more, but the weapon damage is certainly not negligible.

That's why comparing ammo powers and active powers is silly. If ammo powers added as much damage as active powers ON TOP of your weapon damage it would be retarded. As it is the game is skewed towards gunplay.

[baller7345]

Athenau wrote...

Not at all. Using active powers is at the cost of a minimal amount of shooting. The actual amount of shooting you could do instead of using an active power is negligible. If you go around the game with the intent of using your guns as a main source of offensive firepower, you shouldn't be playing a power class

It isn't negligible. Even a second's worth of shooting adds up to a lot of damage. 1 second of Tempest fire is ~212 damage, 1 second of Revenant fire is ~248 damage, 1 second of viper fire is 320(!) damage, that's without counting things like range multipliers and headshots. Sure a heavy reave or warp against armor or barrier might (depending on how the weapon penetration upgrades work) do a bit more, but the weapon damage is certainly not negligible.
That's why comparing ammo powers and active powers is silly. If ammo powers added as much damage as active powers ON TOP of your weapon damage it would be retarded. As it is the game is skewed towards gunplay.

Just throwing my thoughts in on this.  You are rigth about weapon damage but is assuming you hit with every shot which isn't an easy task and for some people is extremely hard.  DPS means notihing if you can't aim or forget to reload so there are a lot of other factors that go into this.  With powers you don't have to worry about accuracy as much and since neither the adept or engineer are going for straight up damage but instead control they don't need do do as much damage (i.e. pull/cryo blast basically takes an enemy out of a fight for good).

Oh wait just read that he was comparing ammo powers to active powers...so if nothing of what I just said applies then simply ignore.

Modifié par baller7345, 21 mars 2010 - 09:40 .

[Hyunsai]

But with the fact biotic powers make enemies take double damage from gun, can't we say they somewhat were meant to use their guns finally ?

[Athenau]

This debate is eerily reminiscent of the arguments that went on in the early days of Guild Wars PvP. Players would complain about how melee damage was king and casters couldn't dps and the counterargument was always that melee took more skill to use and casters were best placed in utility/control/shutdown roles.

There's a lot of merit to that position--in Guild Wars the metagames (thankfully rare) where casters did superior damage to melee invariably ended up becoming degenerate. Of course Guild Wars is a competitive MP game while ME2 is singleplayer, but the concept of properly rewarding player skill is a good one, IMO.

Edit:  The analogy isn't perfect, since there are no "pure" casters in Mass Effect (every class can and should use their guns), but the tradeoff between weapons and direct damage powers is very similar to that between melee damage and spells.

Modifié par Athenau, 21 mars 2010 - 10:06 .

[baller7345]

Hyunsai wrote...

But with the fact biotic powers make enemies take double damage from gun, can't we say they somewhat were meant to use their guns finally ?

Yes this is exactly right.  Many people look at the video where it says that they are the best killing without firing a single shot and think that means that guns shouldn't be used but if I remember correctly every class in Mass Effect used their guns as does every class in Mass Effect 2.  The uses for the guns is what differs and the amount they need to be used.  The adept can get away with a lot of non gun action thanks to bitoic combos and the soldier well the solder is almost forced to use a gun at all times.  That is the reasons they are on the other end of the spectrum, not because they don't use guns, but because they use their guns in a completely different way.

You can shoot stuff just like a soldier but its often times better to use your powers and when it is better to shoot it normally means they are already affected by a power.

[andypasta2010]

It seems that the engineer and the adept are in fact the ability based classes of ME2. Also, Bioware balances the game around normal difficulty, so I will base my ideas on these concepts.(Although some of these ideas address problems that arise from layers of shields/armor/barriers in higher difficulties)

The fundamental problem brought up by AG in this discussion is the effectiveness of engineer and adept powers versus the effectiveness of guns and ammo powers for the other classes in ME2. The imbalance in this aspect of the gameplay seems to be caused by the low risk/skill - low reward system for powers. 

While many interesting ideas have been brought up in this discussion, not so many have focused on ways to justify giving powers more punch without reverting the classes in question back to the way they were in ME1. Part of this argument is based on the skill required to dispatch enemies with a gun versus powers. It seems that skill with guns comes from the player's ability to aim, while skill with powers comes from the player's ability to use them strategically. As such, instead of translating aim to greater rewards with powers, as AG suggested, translate the player's ability to use the powers together to greater reward. Basically, provide more skill combinations.

Currently, the main example of this is, you guessed it!, the warp explosion for biotics. To build on this idea of the warp explosion, players could use class-defining powers like the combat drone or singularity in conjunction with other class powers. To clarify, the other powers of the class could become more powerful if the player uses a cooldown to set up the class-defining power on the enemy before using a specific ability. (examples below)

This effectively increases the risk of using a power to full effect by making the player spend more time setting up. As such, it could be justified to give abilities more killing power which would neutralize problems caused by the classes' low damage with guns. 

Here are a few general examples of how this might work:
- Shepard's tech powers do more damage and/or gain a bonus effect when used on the target of his/her combat drone (The drone could target the enemy with an ionization laser like the Arc Projector or something)
- Shepard's singularity not only lifts defenseless enemies, but also increases the damage/effect of Shepard's biotic powers on enemies with defenses in the singularity's area of effect.

Engineer examples:
- Instead of one-shotting enemies with one heavy incinerate or destroying a shield with a single overload, make the player use drone on the target first to justify the power's instant kill.
- Reduce the time it takes for cryo to freeze a defenseless target and give it a small damage effect if drone is attacking the target.
- Make AI hack usable, though for a shorter duration, on shielded enemies if drone is attacking them

Unfortunately, my brain is fried after reading 13 pages of discussion and typing this up so I can't think of any specific adept examples...

So that wraps up my brainstormed ideas for innovating the two classes in question based on the problem laid out by AG. So now you guys can make fun of my ideas and try to think of your own solutions. However, keep in mind some of the following principles if you try to build on these ideas:
- Powers could be higher risk/skill - higher reward
- The adept/engineer class-defining abilities could be a more unique part of the gameplay

Modifié par andypasta2010, 26 mars 2010 - 03:23 .

[lastpawn]

But I would at least like to preserve some sense of plot and role-playing instead of magically learning the ins and outs of sniper rifle, assault rifle, or shotgun use because I pick up a conveintly laid out intact weapon. On my first playthrough when I discovered that, I went "oh hey cool... wait what?"

You have a very well written post, but I'll be lazy and just respond to this: I agree completely. Before playing ME2, I "heard" that Shepard can pick up an extra weapon and I naturally assumed that this involves some sort of neural imprint or something that makes sense.

But no, Shepard just picks up a weapon like "oh hey this would work." That makes me think hell, I should have just asked Garrus for his sniper rifle as soon as I got him, it's not like I ever take the guy with me anyway.

[Lycidas]

tonnactus wrote...

Lycidas wrote...
 Compare this to Talis or Legions loyalty missions. Those 2 still give me nightmares playing as an Adept.

Why?Singularity stops geth hunters.And they are the only dangerous enemies in those missions.They ignore the drone of the engineer...

It stops them for just a couple of seconds but they are never alone and everbody else will still charge to your position. Thats the problem not one single enemy. In both missions you have way more targets than you can control and in the time you spend to use a singularity or shoot a short burst at them your shields are gone. Plus there are some rooms that provide lousy cover.
It can still be done thats for sure but its not what I would call fun.

[Hyunsai]

I m about to do Tali's Loyalty with my Adept on insanity.



I suppose this mission is MUCH harder than the recruitment, because I totally destroyed the geths there.

[tonnactus]

Lycidas wrote...


It stops them for just a couple of seconds but they are never alone and everbody else will still charge to your position.

There has to be a mistake with your game.
For me,its always the full duration of 40 seconds.
You could also direct your squadmates to attack a spefific target.
Really,i have much more problems with this mission as an engineer,what was ridiculus,because they have to shine there.But the hunters ignore the drones.Funny.

[DiatribeEQ]

The Engineer class would ROCK HARDCORE if we were able to get both Legion & Tali earlier than we do. The ability to have 3 drones around there with AI Hacking of Geth-Mechs to make them our little personal servants for a bit would just rock hardcore. But we don't get Tali till 1/2 through and Legion till damn well near the end. So the Engineer class languishes behind, due to firepower & utility issues.



The Adapt class just seems to be missing a bit more of the OOMPH that other classes have going for it. Soldiers rock hard, due to the weapon availability & Infiltrators have tons of utility-biotic ability plus some rock solid weapon choices that help support it. Adapt? Once we get our biotics upgraded, they're not bad, but there's some potential issues going against it in that both the road getting there is not only potentially boring, but the enjoyment can be dependent on who you bring with you. It's almost as if you HAVE to bring Miranda and Jacob with you. Perhaps it's just me with those 2 choices of people to have, as an Adept.