314 réponses à ce sujet

[SantosCapela]

Sabresandiego wrote...
...I think they should remove squad ability control entirely...

-Remove global cooldown completely
-Give every ability independant cooldowns or category cooldowns
-Balance ability and category cooldowns to prevent imbalanced gameplay

Well I like that squad control ability and I use it so no. Also it is currently a choice to use it or not  and I favor the option. Why remove an option? Those who like it can use it and those who don't can ignore it. I do agree with changes to universal cooldown but not removing it completely, maybe category wise and combo wise. I agree with this because a player should be able to perform some simple combos without the need of a squad member but it shouldn't be able to spam powers, at least not of the same category. Tech powers shouldn't also affect the use of biotic powers etc... This would be very useful for hybrid classes for example. 

Modifié par SantosCapela, 15 mars 2010 - 11:44 .

[sinosleep]

Sabresandiego wrote...

This is late so this post will be very short. Although this game is great, it would be better if it was some kind of cross between world of warcraft and call of duty. They are two of the best games in the genre of shooters and rpg. I think they should remove squad ability control entirely, but also remove the ridiculous global cooldown so that shepard himself can use a multitude of abilities. Abilities would have to be rebalanced ofcourse but I dislike how ME2 often amounts to spamming your best ability over and over with some squad combos thrown in. I would much rather prefer to be able to combo using shepards abilities alone, and have no ability control on my squad at all.

-Remove global cooldown completely
-Give every ability independant cooldowns or category cooldowns
-Balance ability and category cooldowns to prevent imbalanced gameplay

Remove squad ability control and you might just remove me from the fanbase. I've finished every game I've ever bought almost immediately but I didn't finish Resident Evil 5. Want to know why? Because of the absolutely MORONIC ally AI. There were so many damned times that ****ing moron Sheva got in the way of my shots, or used up half my ammo pool cause while I was taking down zombies with headshots her stupid ass was pumping them full of 20 shots to the chest. And since I had absolutely no control over her whatsoever I got rid of the game after a day or two. And this is from someone that owned RE 4 on the gamecube, beat it on PS2, and re-purchased it for the Wii. 

Squad control is a GOOD thing. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 15 mars 2010 - 01:39 .

[Kronner]

sinosleep wrote...

Squad control is a GOOD thing. 

agreed. And I do not think squad control will ever disappear from Mass Effect. Also, the global cooldown is a good thing too. Otherwise everyone would just spam 3 best abilities in 3 seconds like in ME1.

[Kurupt87]

Category cooldowns sound like a very good option. Have all the direct/indirect damage abilities in one class, the cc's in another with the unique class in its own, with a universal 1 or 2s cooldown that's triggered everytime an ability is used. Prevents spamming, and promotes the hybrid classes using their other abilities, also gives the casters more freedom with using their abilities. Loathe as i am to admit it, the cooldown system that WoW uses is a very good one, which what i'm saying is based on, and could be improved upon by adding BW combo techniques to the mix. Of course, you could do away with cooldowns altogether and implement some type of repleneshing energy/mana bar deal, but that, i think, would be too big of a game changing mechanic to introduce to the final game of a trilogy.

Also, gotta agree with disagreeing with sabre here, any game that has allies under complete AI control is much more frustrating than one that has even a modicum of player direction.

[SantosCapela]

Kronner wrote...

Also, the global cooldown is a good thing too. Otherwise everyone would just spam 3 best abilities in 3 seconds like in ME1.

Agree and disagree. Agree  regarding the spam effect but disagree regarding some limitations that shouldn't exist specially in power based classes. At least power based class Sheppard should be able to make simple combos (2 powers), if the powers are available to him, without relying in squad powers. Something like using a biotic power makes a few biotic powers unavailable except the ones with combo possibility. Obviously using the combo would impose the global cooldown regarding biotic powers. Also, hybrid classes should be able to use different types of powers without global cooldown. Why should a biotic power have any effect in the use of the omni tool in a tech power? That would be a differencing characteristic of hybrid classes and a plus to play a hybrid class. I don't mind the global cooldown regarding squad members powers but I would like more flexibility for Sheppard.

[cerberus1701]

Dannok1234 wrote...



Edit: Bit unrelated but.. Engineer has to be one of the easiest classes to play, to me it seems to require less effort then even a soldier on insanity.

I agree with this completely. Place that drone correctly and you can lock down a group and basically kill it at your leisure.

Having an easier time with Insanity Engineer than I did with even Sentinel. I'm sure I'm in the minority there, but the Engineer simply gives you so much breathing room most times. Locks down Harbinger. Locks down YMIRs. Just  an easy class to work with.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 15 mars 2010 - 03:33 .

[sinosleep]

@SantosCapela

Problem with that is that it would make the hybrid classes substantially more powerful than the regular classes.

Modifié par sinosleep, 15 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[leeboi2]

Too many walls of text, lame thread, we all know ME2 is awesome, end of story. Thank you and goodnight ladies and gentlemen.

[SantosCapela]

sinosleep wrote...

@SantosCapela

Problem with that is that it would make the hybrid classes substantially more powerful than the regular classes.

Well yes. But that could be balanced some way. For example, hybrid classes powers could be made less powerful than those belonging to non hybrid or specialist classes. A combo for an all biotic character would be more powerful that another belonging to an hybrid class. The ability of using tech and biotic powers independently and without cooldown effects in-between would compensate the diminished power of not being a pure class.

[cerberus1701]

leeboi2 wrote...

Too many walls of text, lame thread, we all know ME2 is awesome, end of story. Thank you and goodnight ladies and gentlemen.

Yes. God forbid anyone  read or discuss  anything on the Intertubes.

If it can't be said with QFT, STFU, ROFL or FTW it's not worth reading.

(rolls eyes)

[leeboi2]

cerberus1701 wrote...

leeboi2 wrote...

Too many walls of text, lame thread, we all know ME2 is awesome, end of story. Thank you and goodnight ladies and gentlemen.

Yes. God forbid anyone  read or discuss  anything on the Intertubes.

If it can't be said with QFT, STFU, ROFL or FTW it's not worth reading.

(rolls eyes)

ROFL, STFU! ME2 FTW!

[cerberus1701]

Pats leeboi2 on head.... "Who's a good troll, huh? Who's a good troll? You's a good troll. Oh, yes you are. Good boy"



You can go back under your bridge now.

[Lycidas]

Just don't feed him...

[Lycidas]

I don't think either class needs much to be just that little bit more fun that is "needed" IMHO.
What I would like to see is:
+ 10 - 25% biotic (Adept) / tech (Engineer) damge compared to other classes (needs to be tested obviously)
- 10 - 25% weapon damage
Somewhat increased damage of Singularity/Drone to defences
The Drone being able to spawn right behind the selected target even on places where the player can't go.
Singularity holding targets it does not atm like geth primes and varen (maybe?)
A better cooldown system for all classes (global + individual combined)

Modifié par Lycidas, 15 mars 2010 - 04:52 .

[Sir Cedric]

Kurupt87 wrote...

Category cooldowns sound like a very good option. Have all the direct/indirect damage abilities in one class, the cc's in another with the unique class in its own, with a universal 1 or 2s cooldown that's triggered everytime an ability is used. Prevents spamming, and promotes the hybrid classes using their other abilities, also gives the casters more freedom with using their abilities. Loathe as i am to admit it, the cooldown system that WoW uses is a very good one, which what i'm saying is based on, and could be improved upon by adding BW combo techniques to the mix. Of course, you could do away with cooldowns altogether and implement some type of repleneshing energy/mana bar deal, but that, i think, would be too big of a game changing mechanic to introduce to the final game of a trilogy.
Also, gotta agree with disagreeing with sabre here, any game that has allies under complete AI control is much more frustrating than one that has even a modicum of player direction.

I like this option the best of the different opinions I have seen on here.  Category cooldowns makes it so that more powers doesn't make you less effective.  There was an analysis earlier in the thread about how combat Sheperds only have to choose between 2 powers for their global cooldowns while engineers and adepts have to choose between many more using the same cooldown.  Separate cooldowns to some degree would make them play better I think.

I also like the idea of more combos ala Warp explosion or Overloading anything that plays with fire.  I often go out of my way to set these combos up just because the reward is so cool.  Ista-gibbing Geth Destroyers is a literal blast.

My biggest fear about making any kind of criticism, even awesome constructive ones like this thread, is that in the past Bioware has proven to just remove the offending item instead of improving it. (inventory, Mako, planet exploration, etc...)   I want to keep Engineers and Adepts around so I am almost scared to mention little ways they can be improved.

I am enjoying my engineer run through insanity now, but mostly because I am old school and prefer the cool power use and field domination then I do the twitch shooter mechanism.  There is room for both groups in ME I think. 

[JediPilot0]

cerberus1701 wrote...

leeboi2 wrote...

Too many walls of text, lame thread, we all know ME2 is awesome, end of story. Thank you and goodnight ladies and gentlemen.

Yes. God forbid anyone  read or discuss  anything on the Intertubes.

If it can't be said with QFT, STFU, ROFL or FTW it's not worth reading.

(rolls eyes)

HAHAHAHAH.

Anyway, back on topic. I don't understand why removing squad control is even an issue. Why was that even proposed and what does it solve? I LIKE having control of my teamates. I'm Commander Shepard.....afterall.

[Average Gatsby]

sedrikhcain wrote...

This is going to sound like a snarky response but it's not meant to be...
 
What exactly is the problem? I could summarize your post, in the main, thusly: There are six classes in this shooter game, two of them are not gun-heavy classes. These two "gun-light" classes offer two different ways to play the game and are lots of fun, and I find this troubling.

Does that sound reasonable to you? Seriously, what is the problem?

The issue is that while every class got a cool, unique ability, Adepts and Engineers didn't get sufficiently strong abilities to make up for their lack of weapon power. Crowd Controlling, their strong point, is 1) able to be done by every class including the weapon classes (incendiary and cryo ammo), and 2) isn't nearly as important as simply killing the enemy as quickly as possible. So even though they can CC the best, CC doesn't matter nearly as much as damage so they end up being weaker.

Its basically a call for balance. Besides, what good is it to play the game for 100+ hours and not give any feedback, or useless feedback like "hey that was fun". Its a nice thing to say, but I've got around 70 videos on youtube where I talk about how awesome this game is. I've already put that out there. 

There's no point in really debating fun-ness because its in the eye of the beholder. We can talk about overall effectiveness and game play fit, though, and that's what I am trying to do. I'd like to see equity, as far as power goes, across all classes for ME3, and more balance between both Ability use and gun use for the ability-heavy classes.

[NICKjnp]

Average Gatsby wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

This is going to sound like a snarky response but it's not meant to be...
 
What exactly is the problem? I could summarize your post, in the main, thusly: There are six classes in this shooter game, two of them are not gun-heavy classes. These two "gun-light" classes offer two different ways to play the game and are lots of fun, and I find this troubling.

Does that sound reasonable to you? Seriously, what is the problem?

The issue is that while every class got a cool, unique ability, Adepts and Engineers didn't get sufficiently strong abilities to make up for their lack of weapon power. Crowd Controlling, their strong point, is 1) able to be done by every class including the weapon classes (incendiary and cryo ammo), and 2) isn't nearly as important as simply killing the enemy as quickly as possible. So even though they can CC the best, CC doesn't matter nearly as much as damage so they end up being weaker.

Its basically a call for balance. Besides, what good is it to play the game for 100+ hours and not give any feedback, or useless feedback like "hey that was fun". Its a nice thing to say, but I've got around 70 videos on youtube where I talk about how awesome this game is. I've already put that out there. 

There's no point in really debating fun-ness because its in the eye of the beholder. We can talk about overall effectiveness and game play fit, though, and that's what I am trying to do. I'd like to see equity, as far as power goes, across all classes for ME3, and more balance between both Ability use and gun use for the ability-heavy classes.

I agree about there needing to be more balance across the classes.  I loved ME2... have done several playthroughs already.. but it can be annoying playing as an Adept (my favorite class in ME1 and still in ME2) on higher difficulties because of the shield and armor problems.

[RGFrog]

Kronner wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Squad control is a GOOD thing. 

agreed. And I do not think squad control will ever disappear from Mass Effect. Also, the global cooldown is a good thing too. Otherwise everyone would just spam 3 best abilities in 3 seconds like in ME1.

Does the Soldier, or Infiltrator (beyond reload) have to wait for a cooldown? Nope. They spam the fire button far more than any class ever spammed anything accross me1&2. In fact, I can strip everything as a soldier with warp ammo far faster than an adept in the same situation. Just because you're not spamming powers, doesn't mean your not spamming.

The classes need to be focused on each of their strengths as defined. The Soldier needs to be able to mow things down with weapons.

The Infiltrator needs to be able to traverse a battlefield incognito before giving away a position with gunfire until it's too late for the oponent.

The Vanguard needs to be able to tank through to a target and turn them to goo before the enemy knows what's happening.

The engineer needs to be able to strip shields, decimate barriers, and force an opponent to do his will all at the onset. But the class shouldn't be able to do much uther than ****** off an enemy with a weapon (meaning no special ammo types or training in anything other than the pistol or machine pistol). The focus should be on the use of the omni-tool as the main weapon.

The adept should be a blue glowing deity inspiring fear as it's magic can launch, throw, explode, etc. and the only defense you may have is the few seconds of shields/barriers until those are stripped (again at the onset). The adept shouldn't be using more than a pistol. Instead should be versed in hand to hand combat where physical blows are combined with biotics to do damage.

The sentinal should be a medium user of weapons: pistol, shotgun, AR, with only one ammo addition like AP rounds. It should also only have either defensive or offensive abillites in tech and biotics. This class should be a battlefield commander (not a specialist like all the others) and should be the one acting at the rear of the ranks coordinating and assisting the squad while the squad does the majority of work. While all other classes bring team mates to assist them in their work, this class should bring a squad to do the work while he/she assists them.

The squad mates in all but the sentinal role, should only have defensive powers meant to assist the player on the offensive. But when selected by the Sentinal class, should only have offensive powers that are directed by the sentinal.

I agree that the cool down should also be changed. Powers should be faster acting than ammo additions on shields/barriers as they are specific in nature to their intention and do not do double duty of piercing body parts. Powers that deal killing blows should not do more damage to sheilds/barriers any more than a weapon equiped with shredder ammo does.

I'm not coming at this from a wish standpoint. I'm coming at this from the logical order of the ME universe.

A soldier has weapons that can shred an unprepared being. So, that being puts on armor that can slow or completely negate that process. Soldier then invents something to weaken/destroy armor and allow his ammo to once again kill the enemy. Enemy then creates additional layer to slow or negate that process. But then costs beging to spiral and balance ensues.

Person a has biotics/tech that can decimate a being. So, being realizes  bariers/shields negate electrical/etherial as protection. Biotic/tech devises way to strip that defense allowing additional powers to return to killing the enemy. Enemy discovers that a layered approach also works well, so armor and barrier. But armor does nothing to keep you nailed to the ground in a pull or throw as it is incapable of negating effects. It will help in the landing (if there is one). However sheilds/barriers are expensive to create aritficially. So, armor is weak or not used in order for there to be enough sheild/barrier to allow you the time to kill the power user. Power user knows how to combine just enough of each tallent to get beyond these hinderances and still have enough in reserve to either defend or attack.

No power user in their right mind would offload all their potential at once on one enemy (or small group) only to find themselves hoping that the crate they duck behind will stop the onslought of bullets to follow. While the batteries recharge.

All this is directly opposite of what the devs have done. It's all very unnatural and all I do is wonder how anything will stop the reapers when all the powerful merc organizations are too stupid to attack during my cooldowns and overwhelm me.

Throughout my 4 playthroughs, I'm convinced that I'm the only person in this galaxy that's capable of thought and I don't even exist in this galaxy.

Modifié par RGFrog, 15 mars 2010 - 07:23 .

[Sabresandiego]

Obviously people misread my post as I knew they would. When I mentioned getting rid of squad control, what I was essentially suggesting is that all abilities that are cast by squadmates currently would be cast by shepard instead. You arent losing anything, rather you are gaining the fact that your own character is launching the abilities rather than your squad. I love controlling my squad too, I think its awesome and I wouldnt suggest something that would make the game less fun. It would simply be a transfer of powers from your squad to yourself. This is basically how games like world of warcraft work, where you only control your own character but that control is much deeper than it is in this game. As for people mentioning casting your 3 most overpowered abilities instantly, thats why I mention that ability category placements and cooldowns would have to be balanced for it to work. Anyways I am happy with the game the way it is now but it could definitely be improved and I think taking things from world of warcraft and call of duty is the best way.

[sinosleep]

@sabresandiego
If you knew we were going to misread maybe you should have worded it better. IMO, part of the fun of ME IS controlling your squad's movements and powers. It's the same reason I loved Dragon Age so much. Controlling your squad is an essential part of ME so I disagree with what you're saying regardless of how you phrase it. It's a squad based game, I'd like to control my squad in every way possible.

Modifié par sinosleep, 15 mars 2010 - 07:58 .

[Omega-202]

RGFrog wrote...

I'm not coming at this from a wish standpoint. I'm coming at this from the logical order of the ME universe.

That's not true.  Those are all your wishes and opinions.  If you want to argue logic of the ME universe, then all Commander Shepards are trained soldiers first and foremost.  They are military men.  Any enlisted man's main tool is his weapon.  

It seems that my view of the ME universe is the one that BioWare believes is true.  Yours seems to be tainted from the view point of some sort of classical RPG.  

As a military man, Shepard SHOULD be relying on his guns first and foremost and his special tricks as supplements.  

My opinion is not that the powers should be brought up to the level of "weapon replacements" but that the gun play needs to be better distributed between classes.  

[Kurupt87]

The trouble with body part targeting of powers would mean that you'd then have to make powers instant and non curving direct line of sight. This would change how the adept and engineer play considerably, because a strong point in these classes favour is the fact that they can stand behind high cover, not be actually "in cover", and fire powers around to still get enemies while they can't be hit themselves. Getting rid of this will mean a major revamp in these classes, they'd have to be given more survivability because anytime they want to use a power they'd have to expose themselves to enemy fire, and any increase in survivability will also improve their ability to just shoot enemies, which is something that we aim to reduce these classes reliance on. Also, the curving of powers was one of things that BW marketed the most, meaning they put alot of effort/money into it, and did it very well.

[FFLB]

Average Gatsby wrote...

One Solution for ME3 (out of many viable possibilities):

The problem can be summarized like this: Abilities are too easy to use and should not be rewarded as much for their use, however, this causes the ability heavy classes to be underpowered and not mesh well with the game design.

The answer could be in some additional element of aimed powers.


From a gameplay perspective, this power has to be weak. It would make the game incredibly easy otherwise, so therefore the killing power must be stripped.

How this would work in game:
Shepard pops out from cover. The player then hits the ability button and holds it. A line appears from the player out straight in front, which can be curved or not, depending on the ability.

Suddenly an ability takes on the skill of use that a weapon does, which allows it to play a primary instead of a secondary role.

Aimed powers result in a number of things: 1) A new, innovative method of playing games, and a new challenge for developers 2) A dynamic and exciting way to play any class 3) The feeling that no one class, because of the way it plays, needs to be weaker or stronger because they all are faced with more equitable challenges.

Therefore, all of the good things the team wanted to keep in Mass Effect 2 can be preserved, while the team also shore up the weaknesses pointed out in the GDC presentation.

The suggestions about aiming powers and subsequent posts mentioning risk and reward caught my attention and got me thinking about a possible addtion to Adepts and Engineers, or biotics and tech.

I've heard speculation that Bioware decided to cap the level at 30 so that Shepard could go up to 60 in ME3. Now, if that's the case, or even if it's not, maybe they could create ultimate versions of the abilities. Now, these ultimate abilities would be aimable, separate from the original ability so it becomes a choice, and require a charge time, which would put you out of cover and require a larger amount of risk on your part, but the rewards would be much greater. For example, an ultimate version of Singularity could effectively draw in a roomful of hordes of enemies, causing them to become helpless and also take damage. Now, since it would so powerful, not only would it have a charge up time close to that of the Nuke heavy weapon, but it would also give you a massive global cooldown before being able to use another ability as well as slowing down your own movement and senses, sort of like when you're at critical health. This would take a couple of minutes to recover from, but those weaknesses can be cut down with the inclusion of energy/nutrient drinks, as has been mentioned in the Codex. They could essentially be mana potions that regenerate stamina/cooldown over time.

This would definitely give the Adept an edge to its abilities that would be undeniably useful and powerful, while carrying a high risk. Something similar could be done for the Engineer, with omni-gel being used as their limited, yet regeneratable, resource. If this seems similar to heavy weapons, well, maybe that's the role that these abilities should fill, since I do remember some people wondering why all classes carried heavy weapons. Also, energy drinks and omnigel seem like they would be about as plentiful as heavy weapons ammo when raiding mercenary bases and the like. Maybe not Collector ships or Geth bases though, with the exception of omnigel.

I could also see a semblance of this idea being applied to biotics and tech overall.

Modifié par FFLB, 15 mars 2010 - 08:47 .