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Texas removes thomas Jefferson from history.


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#201
Twitchmonkey

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Celrath wrote...
Your argument is void to anyone that is religious because they take what ever the religious text happens to be as canon so there for they would argue that their god has already made itself known. 


And if that's good enough for them then there is nothing I can do about that. I just can't think of something that is actually useful or tangible that cannot be measured. If your god has no use or measurable manifestation then it's just as well to believe than to not believe, except the latter requires following no dogma nor participating in any rituals.

#202
addiction21

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Twitchmonkey wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Would waffles count as a Golden Idol? If so Im screwed :(


Golden waffles would. I'd hold onto those if I were you, in this economy you're going to be glad you did.



So they actually need to be golden. Not just a tasty golden color... well I think I can sleep better knowing that.

#203
Twitchmonkey

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addiction21 wrote...
So they actually need to be golden. Not just a tasty golden color... well I think I can sleep better knowing that.


If they are not in fact made of gold, your greatest value will be investing them in your mouth.

#204
Guest_Captain Cornhole_*

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I lIke cheese

Modifié par Captain Cornhole, 17 mars 2010 - 04:10 .


#205
Guest_Celrath_*

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Captain Cornhole wrote...

I lIke cheese


Sunday is the day for cheeses 

#206
Twitchmonkey

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Celrath wrote...
Sunday is the day for cheeses 


Rest and cheese are complementary.

#207
MerinTB

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the_one_54321 wrote...
Also, it always makes me sad when someone tells me that s/he is an atheist. :(


Are you sad when someone tells you they are a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Scientologist?  Are you only happy when someone tells you they are a Christian?

Or do you think it's better that the majority live under a delusion as long as they believe the delusion?  Because all religions cannot be right - so if one WERE right, all the others would be wrong, and therefore most live under a delusion.

I prefer quantifiable beliefs that can be based on proof, demonstrable truths that can be learned empirically.
Everything else - faith in things unseen and unprovable - is fine for people who WANT that in their lives, as long as that faith doesn't harm others.

It is unfortunate that so often that faith DOES harm others.

That's all.

Don't be sad for me because I don't pretend to believe in things I don't believe.  Be happy that, after nearly a decade of having nothing to believe in, I found skepticism and am happier now with my worldview than I ever was before. :D

After all, I'd assume (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are sad because you think I have nothing to believe in.

If, on the other hand, you are sad for the first couple reasons I listed above (because I'm not Christian, or because I don't have a delusion of some supernatural being to live under) - then I guess you have to feel sad for the majority of people.

#208
MerinTB

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second time today with the double post

Modifié par MerinTB, 17 mars 2010 - 05:51 .


#209
Guest_Celrath_*

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It makes me sad when someone double posts

#210
Godak

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Celrath wrote...

It makes me sad when someone double posts


It makes me even sadder when someone double posts, and then forgets to edit their "Ooopsy!".

#211
Vaeliorin

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Statulos wrote...
I have been in a couple "Dixie" states and waiters in restaurants do not look at me as a potential rapist when I call them "pretty" or "dear" with a huge smile: they just smile back thank me and serve my orders.

I have had that gaze here in Indiana (especially from Indy to the North), Ohio and Illinois.

That's because we don't like displays of emotion of any sort in the Midwest.  Even between family members or couples.  We're a bunch of stoics and damn proud of it! :P

:ph34r::kissing::ph34r:







*On a serious note, we're a bit more socially conservative in the Midwest.  Miss/Sir/Ma'am is generally the preferred form of address.

#212
Statulos

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Not in Bloomington-Indiana, nor in the southern part of the Hoosier state...  :D

I have no complain on people from the Midwest in general as I do not have any real serious complain about Americans as a whole; I´m just commenting that people from the South feel less unconfortable with the way I show respect and appreciation.

Modifié par Statulos, 17 mars 2010 - 07:04 .


#213
mrofni

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MerinTB wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Also, it always makes me sad when someone tells me that s/he is an atheist. :(


Are you sad when someone tells you they are a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Scientologist?  Are you only happy when someone tells you they are a Christian?

Or do you think it's better that the majority live under a delusion as long as they believe the delusion?  Because all religions cannot be right - so if one WERE right, all the others would be wrong, and therefore most live under a delusion.

I prefer quantifiable beliefs that can be based on proof, demonstrable truths that can be learned empirically.
Everything else - faith in things unseen and unprovable - is fine for people who WANT that in their lives, as long as that faith doesn't harm others.

It is unfortunate that so often that faith DOES harm others.

That's all.

Don't be sad for me because I don't pretend to believe in things I don't believe.  Be happy that, after nearly a decade of having nothing to believe in, I found skepticism and am happier now with my worldview than I ever was before. :D

After all, I'd assume (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are sad because you think I have nothing to believe in.

If, on the other hand, you are sad for the first couple reasons I listed above (because I'm not Christian, or because I don't have a delusion of some supernatural being to live under) - then I guess you have to feel sad for the majority of people.



I am sad when athiests are intolerant in the same way that the religious people they claim to hate do. Why is it that it is bad to be intolerant against Judaism, Islam, Tibetan Buddism, but perfectly fine when it is against Christianity and/or Catholism? To be fair though, I am sad when anyone shows intolerance.

Also, I take issue that you say faith harms people. Faith itself doesn't harm people, the people do. I don't know a religion out there where their prophets' teachings encourages intolerance or violence or crime. Religous people who persecute others are often going against their own prophet's teachings. To then say that people are harming others because of their own faith, when they are most likely going against their faith to do so, is kind of a ridiculous argument.

Modifié par mrofni, 17 mars 2010 - 09:01 .


#214
AntiChri5

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Celrath wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Irony and self deprecating humor.

Also, it always makes me sad when someone tells me that s/he is an atheist. :(


You should try it, it's really quite fun. We get together and go kiteboarding the first Saturday of every month.


Did you know they have billboards now 

Soon they'll be a Church of Atheism

Image IPB


As an Atheist i totally support the Billboard and smile at the choice of location.

As an Atheist, i will punch the first person to try to create an Atheist church.

#215
Chained_Creator

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mrofni wrote...
I am sad when athiests are intolerant in the same way that the religious people they claim to hate do. Why is it that it is bad to be intolerant against Judaism, Islam, Tibetan Buddism, but perfectly fine when it is against Christianity and/or Catholism? To be fair though, I am sad when anyone shows intolerance.

To crticize is not to be intolerant of, to bash and demean with no purpose is, though. "Slippery slope" argument. At what point does crticizing become bashing?


mrofni wrote...
Also, I take issue that you say faith harms people. Faith itself doesn't harm people, the people do. I don't know a religion out there where their prophets' teachings encourages intolerance or violance or crime.

Read the Koran. (Qur’an, if you prefer.)

#216
AntiChri5

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[quote]Chained_Creator wrote...

[quote]mrofni wrote...
I am sad when athiests are intolerant in the same way that the religious people they claim to hate do. Why is it that it is bad to be intolerant against Judaism, Islam, Tibetan Buddism, but perfectly fine when it is against Christianity and/or Catholism? To be fair though, I am sad when anyone shows intolerance.[/quote] To crticize is not to be intolerant of, to bash and demean with no purpose is, though. "Slippery slope" argument. At what point does crticizing become bashing?


[quote]mrofni wrote...
Also, I take issue that you say faith harms people. Faith itself doesn't harm people, the people do. I don't know a religion out there where their prophets' teachings encourages intolerance or violance or crime.[/quote] Read the Koran. (Qur’an, if you prefer.)


[/quote]

Or the Old Testament.

Finding a dogmatic philosophy (be it religious or otherwise) that is squeeky clean and free of bloodshed is damn hard.

#217
mrofni

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Chained_Creator wrote...

mrofni wrote...
I am sad when athiests are intolerant in the same way that the religious people they claim to hate do. Why is it that it is bad to be intolerant against Judaism, Islam, Tibetan Buddism, but perfectly fine when it is against Christianity and/or Catholism? To be fair though, I am sad when anyone shows intolerance.

To crticize is not to be intolerant of, to bash and demean with no purpose is, though. "Slippery slope" argument. At what point does crticizing become bashing?


I dont mind critcism, however many athiests go far beyond critism; just like how many christians go far beyond criticizing islam.

Chained_Creator wrote...

mrofni wrote...
Also, I take issue that you say faith harms people. Faith itself doesn't harm people, the people do. I don't know a religion out there where their prophets' teachings encourages intolerance or violance or crime.

Read the Koran. (Qur’an, if you prefer.)


Have you read the Qur'an? I have, and the Qur'an only encourages violence in very specific ways, in ways that we in modern day society would find appropriate, like in self defense. If you want to get into the issue of Islamic terrorists, they are specifically going against Muhammad's and the Qur'an's teachings. A verse in the Qur'an says that not only muslims will go to heaven, but also Jews and Christians, if they believe in god and live a good and righteous life. I was paraphrasing there, but I think I still got my point across.

Modifié par mrofni, 17 mars 2010 - 09:27 .


#218
Dark Lilith

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Vaeliorin wrote...

Statulos wrote...
I have been in a couple "Dixie" states and waiters in restaurants do not look at me as a potential rapist when I call them "pretty" or "dear" with a huge smile: they just smile back thank me and serve my orders.

I have had that gaze here in Indiana (especially from Indy to the North), Ohio and Illinois.

That's because we don't like displays of emotion of any sort in the Midwest.  Even between family members or couples.  We're a bunch of stoics and damn proud of it! :P

:ph34r::kissing::ph34r:


speak for yourself,I am very touchy,feely with friends and family we hug and kiss to greet and say farewell.It's more on family type than a section of the country.




*On a serious note, we're a bit more socially conservative in the Midwest.  Miss/Sir/Ma'am is generally the preferred form of address.



#219
Jae Onasi

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AntiChri5 wrote...
As an Atheist i totally support the Billboard and smile at the choice of location.

As an Atheist, i will punch the first person to try to create an Atheist church.

Well that's a positive solution.  :P

This same topic came up on another forum I frequent.  This was my response:
I re-read this article to see just what was being proposed.

They also included a plank to ensure that students learn about “the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s, including Phyllis Schlafly, the Contract With America, the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority and the National Rifle Association.”

Well, Reagan and Bush 1 were conservatives--that's historical fact and should be acknowledged.  If it's not, I have a problem with that textbook.  The Moral Majority and the Contract with American had definite effects on our political and economic history, and that can't be swept under the rug. 

Dr. McLeroy, a dentist by training, pushed through a change to the teaching of the civil rights movement to ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Black Panthers in addition to the nonviolent approach of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He also made sure that textbooks would mention the votes in Congress on civil rights legislation, which Republicans supported.

Malcolm X is a huge figure in civil rights history, and should be acknowledged as well.  His violent methods did have an impact on the movement, like it or not.  I have no problems with Republicans being mentioned as supporting the civil rights legislation.  If they had not, non-whites would still be disenfranchised--LBJ needed every single vote he could get to get the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts passed.  Why the NYTimes thinks this is a negative thing is beyond me. 

Mr. Bradley won approval for an amendment saying students should study “the unintended consequences” of the Great Society legislation, affirmative action and Title IX legislation. He also won approval for an amendment stressing that Germans and Italians as well as Japanese were interned in the United States during World War II, to counter the idea that the internment of Japanese was motivated by racism.

If by 'unintended consequences' they refer to welfare fraud, sure.  I've seen enough fraud in the welfare and Medicaid system to be severely ticked off about people driving up in new cars, professionally manicured nails, and expensive jewelry and then whipping out their Medicaid cards to pay for their exams.    As for Germans and Italians being interned--sure.  It shows what war did to us.  We don't lock up Americans of Iraqi descent just because of their nationality precisely because of what we learned in WWII.  I'm not sure why NYTimes thinks this is 'bad'.

In economics, the revisions add Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek, two champions of free-market economic theory, among the usual list of economists to be studied

Why in the world would anyone find it objectionable to include Friedman, who won a Nobel prize in economics and who was one of the biggest influences on economic theory in the US for decades?  Is there some compelling reason why students should NOT be learning about these men?

In the field of sociology, another conservative member, Barbara Cargill, won passage of an amendment requiring the teaching of “the importance of personal responsibility for life choices” in a section on teenage suicide, dating violence, sexuality, drug use and eating disorders.

Well, God forbid we actually teach about personal responsibility for things like drug use and dating violence, because we all know that society forces the pills into our mouths, the needles into our arms, and people to beat the snot out of each other.  Nope, learning to control your own behavior and be responsible for your own actions must be just awful.  I believe I'll exercise my personal responsibility in calling the writer of this article biased in the extreme, and idiotic on top of it.

As for cutting Jefferson from the curriculum--the writer is very careful here to say Dunbar cut it from her list, but didn't specify if the entire panel agreed to this or not.  However, he writes it in a way that makes the reader think that at first blush the panel passed this as an amendment.  I believe that particular paragraph, and the parenthetical judgment by the writer, was put there simply to be inflammatory. 

This is not a news article, it's an op-ed essay pretending to be a news article.  I would recommend looking at the original meeting minutes instead of McKinley's very opinionated review of the meeting.  I'm sure it'll be far more enlightening.

#220
MerinTB

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mrofni wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Also, it always makes me sad when someone tells me that s/he is an atheist. :(


Are you sad when someone tells you they are a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Scientologist?  Are you only happy when someone tells you they are a Christian?

Or do you think it's better that the majority live under a delusion as long as they believe the delusion?  Because all religions cannot be right - so if one WERE right, all the others would be wrong, and therefore most live under a delusion.

I prefer quantifiable beliefs that can be based on proof, demonstrable truths that can be learned empirically.
Everything else - faith in things unseen and unprovable - is fine for people who WANT that in their lives, as long as that faith doesn't harm others.

It is unfortunate that so often that faith DOES harm others.

That's all.

Don't be sad for me because I don't pretend to believe in things I don't believe.  Be happy that, after nearly a decade of having nothing to believe in, I found skepticism and am happier now with my worldview than I ever was before. :D

After all, I'd assume (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are sad because you think I have nothing to believe in.

If, on the other hand, you are sad for the first couple reasons I listed above (because I'm not Christian, or because I don't have a delusion of some supernatural being to live under) - then I guess you have to feel sad for the majority of people.

I am sad when athiests are intolerant in the same way that the religious people they claim to hate do. Why is it that it is bad to be intolerant against Judaism, Islam, Tibetan Buddism, but perfectly fine when it is against Christianity and/or Catholism? To be fair though, I am sad when anyone shows intolerance.


There are things we should be intolerant of, though.  People should not be tolerant just to be PC or "open minded."  If you have people out there who believe vampires are real, they need help - or, in some cases, ridicule is the only way to go.  Yes, ridicule.  Sometimes some beliefs are so bad that arguing against them just gives them some sense of crediibility and the only answer is humor - to mock them.

I don't like when any PERSON is being treated with intolerance - but wacky beliefs about ridiculous things (I think most of us can agree that Scientology, the scam perpetrated on people by a science fiction author who's medical scam was about to be prosecuted so he quickly definied it as not science but religion and therefore the government couldn't touch him) deserve to be torn to shreds.

This is a strawman - most secular people will hold most religious beliefs as, at best, mildly amusing.  Christians like to play the victims in America when they are the majority with more power than any other group in America.  Why does it seem that Christians get more press and more criticism is explicitly because they are the largest religious group in America - if Hindus were the largest group, outside of us probably having to have civil rights legislation to get us out from an onerous and inhumane caste system, Hindus would get the most attention from secular humanists / agonistics / atheists / other religious groups.  When your the big dog, you draw the most attention.

Also, I take issue that you say faith harms people. Faith itself doesn't harm people, the people do. I don't know a religion out there where their prophets' teachings encourages intolerance or violence or crime. Religous people who persecute others are often going against their own prophet's teachings. To then say that people are harming others because of their own faith, when they are most likely going against their faith to do so, is kind of a ridiculous argument.


You can take all the issue you like.  As was mentioned earlier, most of my history studies were on the history of various religions.  Religious beliefs are the number one cause cited, historically, for wars and genocide.  While you can argue that other motivations, perhaps greater ones for those in power and calling the shots, existed (wanting more land / resources, disliking people who were different than them, just a way to keep and/or exert power), the rank and file were mostly motivated by their religious beliefs to take up arms for the fight.  While in the 20th Century nationalism became something of a religious fervor, causing a lot of fighting in Europe (and a couple World Wars), most of the fighting in the world still today is between different religious groups.

While there are teachings in most religions about peace and non-violence, there are just as many teachings about violence and intolerance.  I won't bore you with chapter and verse from the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, where Yaweh / Elom / God / Allah tells the faithful to smite these people or dash the heads of the babies of that people or stone those witches or kill those unfaithful... you know they are there.

I'll end by saying that just because some religious people of a certain religious belief practice and espouse peace and non-violence doesn't forgive the large numbers who practice violence and hatred.  And if you think the numbers aren't large, go watch Jesus Camp, watch some televised content from the Mega Churches, read some indepth articles about what is taught at radical madrassas...
while there are plenty of nice people who are Christian or Muslim (or any other religion), there are many who are not very nice and most of those hold their negative views from their religious beliefs.

---

Don't think I'm unfairly picking on religion, though.  Nationalism and patriotism hold equal places in my mind for "more harm than good usually comes from these beliefs."

#221
MerinTB

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Jae Onasi wrote...
This is not a news article, it's an op-ed essay pretending to be a news article.  I would recommend looking at the original meeting minutes instead of McKinley's very opinionated review of the meeting.  I'm sure it'll be far more enlightening.


Let's try another view on it then, shall we?

http://www.huffingto...u_n_498003.html


Board member Cynthia Dunbar wants to change a standard having students
study the impact of Enlightenment ideas on political revolutions from
1750 to the present. She wants to drop the reference to Enlightenment
ideas (replacing with “the writings of”) and to Thomas Jefferson. She
adds Thomas Aquinas and others. Jefferson’s ideas, she argues, were
based on other political philosophers listed in the standards.  (...) Could Dunbar’s problem be that
Jefferson was a Deist? The board approves the amendment, taking Thomas
Jefferson OUT of the world history standards.


"Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian
influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the
philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state."

“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional
separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from
Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of
your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”


The Board refused to require that “students learn that the Constitution
prevents the U.S. government from promoting one religion over all others.”


Those are the first three in order - I'm not picking nits, I'm going through in order.

There's plenty more there.  Try being less selective to prove a point and look at ALL the changes they agreed to and the ones they shot down.  Like "hip-hop being culturually important" - that has a far bigger impact on our culture than the Moral Majority ever did, IMO, and I hate hip-hop.  Or that it was just white guys fighting at the Alamo - as true as Regan being a Conservative and Germans being interned, no?

#222
Statulos

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In order not to quote Jae´s long post, I think that you´re missing the part of equity and fair share of information.

It´s very fine that they include Friedman but... Are they including Keynes as well? In the case of Moral Majority; will they talk about the Punk scene in California and how they laugh at them?

I will give a clear example I protested a lot: while in my history lessons I was told how bad and evil the Spanish Republicans were, the crimes of Franco were bypassed with great ease. I basicaly hope you don´t get similar crap.

For Merin:

The inconsistence of ideas is absolute is they´re promoting Saint Thomas, who basicaly reworked Aistotlean logics to suit Christianism and drop Jefferson because "his ideas were from others".

The point of teaching "Judeo-Christian roots" most of the times is pure and simple propaganda. Basicaly because if they´re serious, they will not succeed: theology is not something ment to be tough in schools at just a decent level.

Modifié par Statulos, 17 mars 2010 - 03:24 .


#223
Gorath Alpha

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MerinTB wrote...

The scary thing about this is Texas is such a large state that what they teach influences what goes into all the textbooks used across the nation.

Good article about this - http://www.washingto...-2005Mar22.html
It's a little old, but do some searching on your own to learn about how stupid this whole thing is.

This sort of attempt at putting more blinkers on the educational system probably won't survive a first review by the state's majority.  The religious wierdos are primarily north Texas, and the state's physical size is such that the state constitution included the provision that they reserved the right to split into up to five states. 

El Paso, and in fact most of west Texas from about the Fort Stockton area, is quite different in many ways, including having the most interesting geography ( a majority of the state being relatively flat, with shallow, rolling hills ).  I'll not be losing any sleep over the incident. 

Gorath
-

#224
Statulos

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Dark Lilith wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

Statulos wrote...
I have been in a couple "Dixie" states and waiters in restaurants do not look at me as a potential rapist when I call them "pretty" or "dear" with a huge smile: they just smile back thank me and serve my orders.

I have had that gaze here in Indiana (especially from Indy to the North), Ohio and Illinois.

That's because we don't like displays of emotion of any sort in the Midwest.  Even between family members or couples.  We're a bunch of stoics and damn proud of it! :P

:ph34r::kissing::ph34r:


speak for yourself,I am very touchy,feely with friends and family we hug and kiss to greet and say farewell.It's more on family type than a section of the country.




*On a serious note, we're a bit more socially conservative in the Midwest.  Miss/Sir/Ma'am is generally the preferred form of address.

You should meet mine: I´m the "big guy" of the family and it´s just interesting to see that I cuddle, hug and kiss even my grandma. :P

#225
Madame November

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Vaeliorin wrote...

*On a serious note, we're a bit more socially conservative in the Midwest.  Miss/Sir/Ma'am is generally the preferred form of address.


I grew up in Texas calling people sir and ma'am. I spent a summer in Illinois once and Ma'am was horribly offensive to most of the women I met there. I was unable to get out of the habit and so I pissed off a lot of nice ladies.

Modifié par November Cousland, 17 mars 2010 - 04:11 .