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So in retrospect, did ME 2 fail?


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#226
jbadm04

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Daeion wrote...

I'll agree here that I think the success of ME2 has more to do with the success of ME and the hype that was built up for ME2.  I didn't purchase ME until it was $20 on the PC, but I made dam sure to pre-order the CE of ME2 the day it was announced because of how much I loved ME and was looking forward to it's continuation.  At this point I know that I'll be buying ME3, but I doubt I'll be rushing to preorder or get it within the first month because I don't feel the same way about ME2 that I felt about ME.


pretty much the same here. I rushed to preorder DA:O and ME2 and got disappointed both times. Im for sure going to buy ME3, but Im for sure not going to preorder an overpriced version and wait a year, maybe two. This way I can even play all the DLCs without replaying the game everytime a new DLC is released.

#227
Iz Stoik zI

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jbadm04 wrote...


pretty much the same here. I rushed to preorder DA:O and ME2 and got disappointed both times. Im for sure going to buy ME3, but Im for sure not going to preorder an overpriced version and wait a year, maybe two. This way I can even play all the DLCs without replaying the game everytime a new DLC is released.


You won't need to replay the game when the DLC is released if I read correctly. You can just play the DLC on your characters that have already completed ME2's main storyline. I personally like knocking off everything from the beginning but either way gets it done.

#228
Pocketgb

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Nope.

#229
Kayback

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CmdrFenix83 wrote...



Companion Armor:  They didn't feel like creating suits to tailor to 12 different character models.  In the first game, every single human male had the same model. 


Whatever, it is stupid and requires too much suspension of belief to think spandex makes good armour. Even with their Biotic shields and stuff, bra and cargo pants or skin tight cat suit are not combat atire.

Drinking through the helmet:  Why did you put on the full helmet in the first place?  Planning to be gassed everywhere you go?  At no time when you have the required breath mask down are you ever available for a drink.  Don't know many people that would walk around cities in a full envirosuit that aren't a Quarian/Volus.


This is actually exactly our point. ME1 put helmets on and off as needed. I don't want to have to visit the captains cabin before every planet side visit. There are full face helmets that are available in game that give you benifits in combat, however they are totally idiotic for some scenes, and they do a very good job of disconnecting you from your character. The DLC is even worse. You CAN'T remove the helmets. If you wear one of those, you are forced to drink through ballistic protection.

I support using protection when you have sex with strangers, but when I visited my LI from ME1, I snogged her through a ballistic faceplate. That's a little extreme for safe sex isn't it?

I don't want to go into combat with a bare head, neither do I want to go into a polite conversation with me helmet on.

Thank-You mails:  A reminder that your decision isn't forgotten.  Will they have a larger role in ME3?  We can't say.  However, most of them are for very, very minor sidequests from the first game.  Why would most of these have *any* effect on the story at all?  The mail at least lets you know that your decision effected something, in this case it's the life of an individual NPC.  I don't see the problem here.


They took time out of their busy days to program something cool like the Rachni reminder. That was cool. A crappy email isn't.

Saving everyone on the suicide mission:  This seems to be the only point you have that I agree on.  Saving everyone should be extremely difficult. 


That's exactly how it played out for me. Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to the game in the first play through, but I lost almost all the crew on the first playthrough. I also lost some party members. Not cool. I needed a walkthrough to do it. I didn't even realise it would happen the first time. Maybe you should all get your walkthroughs after your first play throughs?

All in all, It was a great game. It wasn't as immersive, IMHO, as the first one. I really enjoyed the first one. While there isn't much difference between the Stinger VII and the Stinger IIX, there was a great difference between the Stinger 1 and the Stinger X. I liked the different armours and weapons. It was quite a bit of looks over performance sometimes. My squad were all in matching, military armour so we looked like a crew. A crew on an official mission. When I had to go rogue at the end of ME1 I kitted up in Mercenary armour for my whole crew. Why? It felt right and it played great.

Still have high hopes for ME3, and I'll be pre ordering it.

KBK

#230
Kayback

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On the topic of "traditional" RPG elements being dated, yeah, they are. How is this license to change the RPG elements to nothing?



People like traditional. If you are going to change traditional, change it to improve it, don't dumb it down or retract it.



You say that smaller, more linear worlds are good for "new" RPG's? How is this different from a railed shooter? Go play DOOM. The worlds "Linear " and "RPG" don't belong in the same sentence.



KBK

#231
Terraneaux

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Iz Stoik zI wrote...

This thread sucks.

It didn't fail at all, it just failed to live up to some of the absurd expectations that were placed on it by naive cynics. 


I don't think you know what a cynic is.  

#232
JeanLuc761

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Kayback wrote...
People like traditional. If you are going to change traditional, change it to improve it, don't dumb it down or retract it.
The worlds "Linear " and "RPG" don't belong in the same sentence.

You've apparently never played a Final Fantasy game. 

#233
bdipauly

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What an utterly horrible thread. If I worked for Bioware I would be dishearterned to see this after creating such an amazing game. Take off the rose coloured glasses guys.

#234
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KotOREffecT wrote...

In about the past month here on the forums, there has been an increase of ME 2 hate/dissapointment threads/etc.. Infact, it seems as if it has completely overshadowed that of the love for ME 2. So in these turn of events, what went wrong?

Did this game really not deliver in your mind? Did the lack of RPG elements(even though it was already scaled down in ME 1 and flawed) kill this game for you? Or was it the story pacing? Was ME 2 just to intense and straight forward for you? Did you not get that this game is technically a bridge into ME 3? Did you not like TIM and humanity playing more of a role, that and the whole combo of humans and reapers setting something up? Or was it the lack of choices that are suppose to change the story? How do you feel about those choices and consequences from ME 1 & 2 maybe being bigger in ME 3 perhaps? Since ME is tech the middle part and all setting up for ME 3..

So did ME 2 fail you, or in general do you think it has failed overall compared to ME 1? Do you think BioWare really could have did much better? Is ME 2 overrated you think?

Not a hate thread, but more of an understanding of things in ME 2, things where both players who liked and disliked ME 2 can get an understanding of why? I feel like there are players who are enjoying ME 2 for what it is, and the things it has improved, but is it really better than ME 1? Is this a true sequel? And people who love ME 1, and are not getting as much out of ME 2, are they blinded with nostalgia? Or is ME 2 really that "dumbed down" and bad?

The sequel-hate of the No Mutants Allowed-community has rubbed off on BioWare fans. It's like terminal cancer or AIDS, whatever you do it won't go away.

#235
alphax1

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Response to CdrFenix83...

"The emails are there as simply a reminder that you did a sidequest. 
That's all.  You helped someone's life improve, and they wished to
thank you for it.  It was simply a reminder that BioWare has carried
your decisions over.  Almost none of these e-mails involved a major
decision.  Those major decisions were very evident in the way the world
felt.  If the Council died, you could truly feel the resentment for
that from the way you were treated on the Citadel. "


1. You're missing my point... the e-mails are soo disconnected with no storylines involved... not one single mission which could easily have been done and replaced some of the N7 missions... Maybe something wrt Toombs... maybe something wrt Kyle... the more memorable side quests you got to do in ME1... there isn't one connection... Heck I'd have loved to have Hackett come on over the radio with a mission even though you are off the radar... Have him give you the Normandy 1 mission through a transmission rather than an email...

"'Traditional' is the problem.  They're dated.  Old.  Out of place. 
Even Square-enix has finally learned that it's time to start evolving
the series.  Gone are the days of grinding for experience.  Gone are
the days of massive worlds where people can get lost.  Those things are
now staples in MMO's. "

2. Again as much as the new combat system is 'better ' it's turned completely into a 'chest high walls' TPS... of which there are better ones around that are a dime a dozen... you play the ME series for its story and its gameplay...  you don't have to be an RPG elitist or purist to be upset by that... and its the ONLY game mode right now... against enemies who aren't nearly as varied as the Geth of ME1, there are no sapper units, no snipers, no mini bosses except the same damn YMIR mechs and the three gang leaders in Garrus's mission who are then copy pasted and sprinkled in the other missions... know that not everyone likes the unified cooldown of powers... I'd honeslty rather have 2x as long cooldown but each have their own timer... And for the 'hip' crowd I have a saying... "If it's isn't broke... don't fix it..."

3. Most of what you're talking about is speculation... But Bioware did drop some pretty big plot bombs which are frankly jarring in their awfulness that they really have to make sure not to repeat... Sure it would be nice to think the Council isn't that stupid and it's something else like completely mistrusting Shepard or indoctrination but for now we gotta go on face value that the Council was all dropped on its head as a kid especially given the IFF which even you can't defend... ;)

"Most of that space was just pointless.  Also realize, that most of the
time, in ME2, we're fighting inside of buildings or in urban areas as
opposed to giant, barren wastelands. 
The only reason the
Citadel was so enormous in ME1, was because there were 10+ sidequests
there that had you running all over the place.  In ME2, the Citadel
sectioned off those areas(Garrus and Thane's loyalty missions).  These
missions alone make the Citadel much larger in square meters than it
was int he previous game.  There's just less social areas to visit."

4. See there's the thing... I WANT that... I want to have it so I can run for 20-30 seconds and not come up to a wall or 'mission area' that I'll never be able to visit again after it's over... even so linear they bulldoze through mountains rather than deviate JRPG's feel more expansive... Eden Prime felt like a big colony... Feros felt like a crumbling Prothean city... Noveria felt like a Corporate HQ/RD... the Citadel felt like a huge station and etc... In ME2 Omega feels about as large as a city block... not the massive space city it is... Bioware streamlined way too much...

5. Maybe not so much an 'improved' but rather just a 'ME3' NEEDS this...

#236
Kayback

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JeanLuc761 wrote...

Kayback wrote...
People like traditional. If you are going to change traditional, change it to improve it, don't dumb it down or retract it.
The worlds "Linear " and "RPG" don't belong in the same sentence.

You've apparently never played a Final Fantasy game. 


No I played one. It was crappy and linear. That's why I stopped playing it........

I don't want to see the ME universe head off in that direction.

#237
Avissel

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Arcian wrote...
The sequel-hate of the No Mutants Allowed-community has rubbed off on BioWare fans. It's like terminal cancer or AIDS, whatever you do it won't go away.


Long ago one of the Fallout Dev mentioned that Fallout fans were "glistening gems of refiend hatred" at some point the dumbasses at NMA decided that was a compliment. They are a prime example of "I hate this because I hate it"

#238
alickar

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What is wrong with you man!!!! ME2 was awsome in all aspects

#239
smudboy

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(Measured as Fail, Very Bad, Mediocre, Very Good, Victory)

In regards to...:

Side-Character Development: Victory
Retconning: Victory
Creation of Plot Holes: Victory
Voice Acting: Victory
Most Annoying Antagonist One Liners: Victory
Use Of Deus Ex Machina Device In The First 10 Minutes For Marketing Campaign And Reboot: Victory
Friendly Invincible Immovable God-Mode Crates That Warn When People Want To Kill You: Victory
(Unintended Comical) Dark Helmet Scenes: Victory
Having An Unnecessarily Large Cast Of Side-Characters: Victory
Tali: Victory

Game: Very Good
Talking Head Narrative and Dynamic Dialog System: Very Good
Side-Quest Extravaganza: Very Good
Last Level: Very Good

Story: Mediocre
TPS: Mediocre
GUI: Mediocre
Level Design: Mediocre
Weapons: Mediocre
Romance: Mediocre
DLC: Mediocre

RPG: Very Bad
Storytelling: Very Bad
Mini Gaming: Very Bad
Economy: Very Bad
Email: Very Bad

Sequel: Fail
Plot: Fail
Main Choices: Fail
Main-Character Development: Fail
Last Boss: Fail
Opposing Force: Fail
Antagonist: Fail
Reason To Bring Shepard Back: Fail
Personal Stereo System: Fail
Citadel: Fail
Council: Fail

#240
Guest_Darht Jayder_*

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alickar wrote...

What is wrong with you man!!!! ME2 was awsome in all aspects

So basically you are an idiot with no opinion beyond...games is good, me like game.

#241
Hardehare

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I have a problem with other peoples definition of ROLE playing. I am not STORY playing.



I.e. I play and progress the story thus no need for any additional elements like actual role playing.



I think I role play by playing my Caracter as a military commander that looks after his squad mates by improving their chances of survival by i dont know...



Giving them armour and better guns etc. To play their roles better and safer? Am I not Role Playing by acting like I think a Commander of a team would act to improve his teams chances.



Balancing their strengts and weaknesses with their weapons and armour, giving them biotic and omnitool upgrades which would assist their roles?



I am ROLE playing by customising my caracter and team to be unique.



I am not STORY playing by only being able to do really one or two things, I dont just want to progress the story I want to take part in it my way?



This is why I think ME2 cannot be billed as a RPG. Action yes RPG no.

#242
CmdrFenix83

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Kayback wrote...

Whatever, it is stupid and requires too much suspension of belief to think spandex makes good armour. Even with their Biotic shields and stuff, bra and cargo pants or skin tight cat suit are not combat atire.


I don't disagree, I just explained why.  I'd love for them to have a suit of armor for combat, but it won't happen. 

This is actually exactly our point. ME1 put helmets on and off as needed. I don't want to have to visit the captains cabin before every planet side visit. There are full face helmets that are available in game that give you benifits in combat, however they are totally idiotic for some scenes, and they do a very good job of disconnecting you from your character. The DLC is even worse. You CAN'T remove the helmets. If you wear one of those, you are forced to drink through ballistic protection.

I support using protection when you have sex with strangers, but when I visited my LI from ME1, I snogged her through a ballistic faceplate. That's a little extreme for safe sex isn't it?

I don't want to go into combat with a bare head, neither do I want to go into a polite conversation with me helmet on.


So your gripe is that you don't want to go into combat with a bare head... again, they give you the option of having the open-mouth area helmet that does the same thing.  The DLC armors are terrible, so I won't even bother discussing those.  Besides, they're DLC.  Such 'bonus' armors aren't considered when they made the game. 

I've never used a head item other than the simple Visor, as I think the rest aren't worth covering my face.  I guess my point would be... it's so minor, that it wasn't even considered.  I suppose a toggle might return for ME3, but I really couldn't care either way, I don't wear the helmets unless I need the breather.

They took time out of their busy days to program something cool like the Rachni reminder. That was cool. A crappy email isn't.


The Rachni isn't a small individual you helped.  They are story-relevant.  They will be an ally in ME3 against the Reapers.  Dr. Michel is irrelevant, that's the difference.  She sends you a thank you because she's irrelevant.  They're just a nice reminder that what happened wasn't forgotten.  Every NPC you ran into was relevant(Conrad aside).

That's exactly how it played out for me. Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to the game in the first play through, but I lost almost all the crew on the first playthrough. I also lost some party members. Not cool. I needed a walkthrough to do it. I didn't even realise it would happen the first time. Maybe you should all get your walkthroughs after your first play throughs?

All in all, It was a great game. It wasn't as immersive, IMHO, as the first one. I really enjoyed the first one. While there isn't much difference between the Stinger VII and the Stinger IIX, there was a great difference between the Stinger 1 and the Stinger X. I liked the different armours and weapons. It was quite a bit of looks over performance sometimes. My squad were all in matching, military armour so we looked like a crew. A crew on an official mission. When I had to go rogue at the end of ME1 I kitted up in Mercenary armour for my whole crew. Why? It felt right and it played great.

Still have high hopes for ME3, and I'll be pre ordering it.

KBK


I only lost Mordin my first playthrough and even then it was only because I was still thinking in terms of ME1 classes which counted Mordin = pure tech skills = Engineer.  I did absolutely everything I could before touching the IFF, and I would have done the same with the Collector Ship and Horizon missions if possible.  I always made a point to knock out every side quest before touching the next story mission.

As far as your armor and weapon bit, I just flat out disagree.  My group was always in full Spectre VII or X's and every one put on Collosus when I was able.  There was zero reason to take those off.  I don't find appearance anywhere near relevant when considering how obscenely powerful Collosus armor was.  I don't make a habit of hobbling myself for the sake of some stupid 'appearance' thing.  I couldn't even justify that in a roleplay sense.  "I'm going to take off this extremely well-made armor in favor of this paper!"  No, just no.

#243
JeanLuc761

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Hardehare wrote...
-snip-


Mass Effect 2 may not fit the traditional defintion of an RPG (i.e. tons of loot and grind) but it's far-fetched to say it's not an RPG at all.  Let's look at what you have control over:
- What you, the player, get to say; don't forget that there are a ton of RPG's that don't do this.
- Manage how your squadmates fight in battle.
- Continually upgrade your weapons and armor capabilities.
- Build some very strong relationships with your squadmates; due heavily to their loyalty missions.
- Influence the decisions of those around you and make huge decisions of your own (rewrite geth or not, etc)
- Free-roam around the galaxy, completing missions at your leisure.


If that doesn't fall into the category of an RPG, I seriously don't know what you're looking for here. 
/rant

#244
CmdrFenix83

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Kayback wrote...

On the topic of "traditional" RPG elements being dated, yeah, they are. How is this license to change the RPG elements to nothing?

People like traditional. If you are going to change traditional, change it to improve it, don't dumb it down or retract it.

You say that smaller, more linear worlds are good for "new" RPG's? How is this different from a railed shooter? Go play DOOM. The worlds "Linear " and "RPG" don't belong in the same sentence.

KBK


Hate to break it to ya, but most cRPG's are linear.  They might give you the illusion of freedom for a bit in the middle, but there's still very specific story being told.  If you can show me where ME1's story planets weren't linear, I'll conceed the point, but you can't.  You start at point A and follow a narrow path to point B.  Sometimes you get to choose the left or right curve for 10 seconds of the trip!  Ooooo!

The only games that aren't linear, are the ones with a sandbox world.  Things like GTA, I would call non-linear, though the story itself still requires you do progress in a specific path, even if you can run around and do pointless tasks on the side.  You cannot get a truly non-linear experience without a living DM running your game.  You say go play DOOM, I say go play D&D.  Only difference is, I never liked DOOM, and I do like D&D.

#245
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The game was awesome, replaced my favorite videogame of all time in fact (Previous holder was none other than Bioware's KOTOR). I think the game was too good in fact, here we were given this awesome fulfilling experience, but eventually it ended, with a cliffhanger. I have noticed that rise in hate threads, but I think that's mostly just people who have no better way of saying they want Mass Effect 3 now.



The only thing I found annoying was the seemingly disconnected plot between ME 1 and 2, so I carry over Shepard and all of his/her decisions but most of them didn't really come into play because I wasn't dealing with the Reapers, I was battling a mysterious hidden threat that happened to be working for the Reapers. So that sort of ticked me off, but I made even more important decisions in ME 2 and I have the feeling that all the decisions in ME 1 and 2 will both carry over to ME 3 and I will be blown away, so I didn't really get hung up on this issue for long.

#246
Terror_K

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Personally, it did fail a little, at least as far as being a follow-up to the original game, and that's a hard thing for me to say given BioWare's reputation and how highly I generally think of them... even if I think they've made some rather questionable decisions as of late. ME2 didn't personally live up to its true potential as the second part of the Mass Effect trilogy to me mostly due to two main reasons for me:- 1) it was too different from the original game and designed far too much for the newcomer and not enough for the existing player, and 2) most of my Mass Effect 1 decisions felt like mere easter eggs rather than anything remotely substantial or critical to anything with regards to ME2's main plot.

#247
CmdrFenix83

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alphax1 wrote...

1. You're missing my point... the e-mails are soo disconnected with no storylines involved... not one single mission which could easily have been done and replaced some of the N7 missions... Maybe something wrt Toombs... maybe something wrt Kyle... the more memorable side quests you got to do in ME1... there isn't one connection... Heck I'd have loved to have Hackett come on over the radio with a mission even though you are off the radar... Have him give you the Normandy 1 mission through a transmission rather than an email...


And why would they waste the resources for that?  The e-mail is a simple reminder that you did a *pointless* sidequest, completely skippable from the main plot... and skip it you did if you were roleplaying the first game at all... race against time and all that.  Do you remember how much it costs to set up real-time connections?  It was mentioned by a Salarian you pass on Noveria in ME1, what was it?  Like 10creds a minute?  E-mails are cheap, and they don't really have much to say to you. 

Don't forget you're technically working with terrorists on a threat they don't believe exists.  The Alliance especially sure would be happy to sit and make small talk with you.  I'm starting to understand why that previous poster mentioned the 'absurd standards' you people are complaining about.  Did you really expect every side-quest from ME1 to have a follow-up in ME2?

2. Again as much as the new combat system is 'better ' it's turned completely into a 'chest high walls' TPS... of which there are better ones around that are a dime a dozen... you play the ME series for its story and its gameplay...  you don't have to be an RPG elitist or purist to be upset by that... and its the ONLY game mode right now... against enemies who aren't nearly as varied as the Geth of ME1, there are no sapper units, no snipers, no mini bosses except the same damn YMIR mechs and the three gang leaders in Garrus's mission who are then copy pasted and sprinkled in the other missions... know that not everyone likes the unified cooldown of powers... I'd honeslty rather have 2x as long cooldown but each have their own timer... And for the 'hip' crowd I have a saying... "If it's isn't broke... don't fix it..."


The new combat system *is* better.  I do play games for the story + combat.  If either of those is lacking, I don't enjoy the game as much.  I've cleared ME2 *ten* times already.  It hasn't even been out 2 months yet.  That's well over 250 hours played in this game.  It is easily my favorite game of all time.  It combines an enjoyable narrative with fast-paced, action-packed combat. 

Roleplayers have no room to complain about the global cooldown, at least for Biotics..  If you've read the books, you'd know that's *exactly* how biotics work.  If takes time to build up enough energy to use biotics again, they cannot be fired in quick succession like they were in ME1. 

ME1's combat was broken.  You realize that this was a major point of criticism that the first game came under, right?  That's why they overhauled it to a tried and true system.  You're right, 'if it ain't broke, dont' fix it'.  They took a system that wasn't broken, and they implimented it.  Spectaularly too, considering how widely praised this game is. 

3. Most of what you're talking about is speculation... But Bioware did drop some pretty big plot bombs which are frankly jarring in their awfulness that they really have to make sure not to repeat... Sure it would be nice to think the Council isn't that stupid and it's something else like completely mistrusting Shepard or indoctrination but for now we gotta go on face value that the Council was all dropped on its head as a kid especially given the IFF which even you can't defend... ;)


It's too soon to write off any of these 'plot bombs' as a failure in the narrative.  Aside from taking the entire team onto the shuttle for the IFF, I never once said "Wait, what?".  I understood the Council's actions.  They didn't believe you in ME1, they don't believe you now.  You have yet to bring forth any form of credible evidence.  They think you're bat-**** crazy.  It's even harder to take a word you say seriously considering TIM has already made it well-known that you're one of his stooges now, even if you aren't.  Just mentioning them immediately validates his rumors.  They simply don't trust you.

4. See there's the thing... I WANT that... I want to have it so I can run for 20-30 seconds and not come up to a wall or 'mission area' that I'll never be able to visit again after it's over... even so linear they bulldoze through mountains rather than deviate JRPG's feel more expansive... Eden Prime felt like a big colony... Feros felt like a crumbling Prothean city... Noveria felt like a Corporate HQ/RD... the Citadel felt like a huge station and etc... In ME2 Omega feels about as large as a city block... not the massive space city it is... Bioware streamlined way too much...


Eden Prime just 'looked' big because you were out in the middle of nowhere.  I don't get why you feel these places felt so large.  Eden Prime was essentially 1 path that had 5 turns on it.  Start, turn right, turn left, find Ashley, turn right, follow up to the left, two buildings, keep going, 1 building and smuggler, train, disarm bombs, beacon.  So.. your point is just that because they took the what... 4-5 conversations and put a stretch of empty pathway between them it was bigger and better?  Please.

The only reason we're so limited in these 'hub' worlds, is because we travel to other locations for the missions there.  They didn't shoehorn the mission into the middle of the hub, they made large, full-length mission areas on these planets.  The Citadel was far larger in ME2 than in ME1.  No, the Presidium isn't, but once you take into accoutn the areas for both Thane and Garrus' loyalty missions, they station is *massively* larger. 

I guess your point then boils down to that you prefer larger, empty and useless space as opposed to large, useful and pointed areas.  There's no 'wasted space' in ME2's hubs, where there are many points in ME1 where there is absolutely no point to an area.  Again, if you want wide open and pointless areas, you should start looking into MMO's.

5. Maybe not so much an 'improved' but rather just a 'ME3' NEEDS this...


Dont' hold your breath.  Things were removed for a reason.  We'll probably see some things come back in very minor amounts due to the absurd amount of crying from the very vocal minority.  There's a reason this game is rated higher overall by basically every critic, and contrary to what you want to believe, that's because it's a dramatic improvement over the first game in most areas.

#248
CmdrFenix83

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Kayback wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Kayback wrote...
People like traditional. If you are going to change traditional, change it to improve it, don't dumb it down or retract it.
The worlds "Linear " and "RPG" don't belong in the same sentence.

You've apparently never played a Final Fantasy game. 


No I played one. It was crappy and linear. That's why I stopped playing it........

I don't want to see the ME universe head off in that direction.


This is ridiculous.  The only reason you people don't see ME1 as linear is because the middle 4 missions could be done in any order.  Both games have the same level of linear design.  You get *more* freedom in execution in ME2.

#249
CmdrFenix83

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Hardehare wrote...

I have a problem with other peoples definition of ROLE playing. I am not STORY playing.

I.e. I play and progress the story thus no need for any additional elements like actual role playing.

I think I role play by playing my Caracter as a military commander that looks after his squad mates by improving their chances of survival by i dont know...

Giving them armour and better guns etc. To play their roles better and safer? Am I not Role Playing by acting like I think a Commander of a team would act to improve his teams chances.

Balancing their strengts and weaknesses with their weapons and armour, giving them biotic and omnitool upgrades which would assist their roles?

I am ROLE playing by customising my caracter and team to be unique.

I am not STORY playing by only being able to do really one or two things, I dont just want to progress the story I want to take part in it my way?

This is why I think ME2 cannot be billed as a RPG. Action yes RPG no.


"Hey, Jack."
"What do you want, Shepard?"
"I want you using this Assault Rifle when you come with me into the Collector BAse."
"Shepard, I have no training with the ****ing thing.  I'm more likely to hit you with it than I am the Collectors."
"I don't care.  I'm the Commander and you'll follow my orders!"

No.  Your squad have their own opinions and personalities.  They know what they're comfortable fighting in.  I highly doubt slapping 80lbs of armor onto Jack and handing her a rocket launcher would improve her combat ability.

No, what you're not doing is ROLE playing.  What you're doing is ROLL playing.

#250
Karstedt

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JeanLuc761 wrote...

Mass Effect 2 may not fit the traditional defintion of an RPG (i.e. tons of loot and grind)


Tons of loot and grind do not equate to traditional RPG... well, ok, tons of loot does:). Grind is really a more recent trend, and the core mechanic of MMO's, not RPG's. Traditional RPGs did have time sinks, but they were usually well thought out puzzles and such. Not chopping down a giant tree one axe swing at a time.

Let's look at what you have control over:
- What you, the player, get to say; don't forget that there are a ton of RPG's that don't do this.

Ummm... riiiight. Do you mean... uh, this doesn't make any sense. I've played a ton of RPG's and where there is dialog, having your say is always involved. Are you simply referring to purely quest driven RPG's that have no real dialog at all?

- Manage how your squadmates fight in battle.

Having squad mates that you can't control has been proven to suck (though Valve did ok with Alyx). This is not really an RPG element, it's an alement of any game where you have to work with a squad of sorts.

- Continually upgrade your weapons and armor capabilities.

It may seem that wat to a shooter player, but to an RPG player these are simply glorified power ups. There is no customization to the new system (except the armor, but that is a joke for the most part). Making you spend resources to 'research' them is actually the most ridiculous part. Just give us the magic toadstool power up and be done with it.

- Build some very strong relationships with your squadmates; due heavily to their loyalty missions.

I think the problem here is that they really are heavily due to loyalty missions. The squad mate side quests in ME1 actually sucked impotant krogan balls... but I still got a much better sense of relationship with the crew. Banter is surprisingly effective at building a sense of relationships, even when the banter isn't directly with the main character. And we really missed that in ME2.

- Influence the decisions of those around you and make huge decisions of your own (rewrite geth or not, etc)

I didn't really get any sense of influence from ME2. People pretty much did their thing regardless of you, and your crew pretty much went along with you no matter what. I can't say that they took a step back here either though. ME1 wasn't heavy on influence either. There were some good descision though. But a lot of what could have been good descision moments got gimped by their lack of consequences.

- Free-roam around the galaxy, completing missions at your leisure.

Free to roam and scan planets... ugh. Outside of missions there wasn't really anything to do, so any sense of free-roaming exploration was lost. I read every single planet description  and they really didn't even provide good flavor this time around. And some stages of the game felt really rushed (in a bad way). While you may have some leeway on when to do what, things like getting the dossiers piecemealed out kinda sucked, and I particularly didn't like that Legion got cramed in at the very end. There was really no time to get to know it before rushing off to the suicide mission. I was very keen on getting to know a geth, and very dissapointed that I got to talk to him a good one or two times before having to save my crew.

If that doesn't fall into the category of an RPG, I seriously don't know what you're looking for here. 
/rant

I'm wouldn't say it's not an RPG at all. But I would definitely say it's on it's way to not being one. I still got the sense that I was on an adventure with ME2, but it's really close to just being another mission this time around. Even though the storyline was arguably lacking, the writing was still good and the characters and cinematic acting were good too. But if it weren't for that, there is really nothing substantial to differentiate it from GoW (a game I have no interest in at all). And my point of going over each of the items you listed was to provide my opinion of why those were not substantial elements in ME2.