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So in retrospect, did ME 2 fail?


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#201
Daeion

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Terraneaux wrote...

In general, game reviewers are bull****.  Some of them are paid by EA or someone to give the kind of review that's wanted by the publisher.  And I believe the commercial success of ME2 had a lot to do with ME1, and EA's hype machine, as opposed to any merit within ME2 itself.  .  As an earlier poster said, ME1 made them pre-order ME2, but ME2 made them not pre-order ME3.  

tl;dr: As long as we're insulting each other, only worthless sheeple would think that ME2 didn't fail.  


I'll agree here that I think the success of ME2 has more to do with the success of ME and the hype that was built up for ME2.  I didn't purchase ME until it was $20 on the PC, but I made dam sure to pre-order the CE of ME2 the day it was announced because of how much I loved ME and was looking forward to it's continuation.  At this point I know that I'll be buying ME3, but I doubt I'll be rushing to preorder or get it within the first month because I don't feel the same way about ME2 that I felt about ME.

#202
alphax1

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ME2 failed in some aspects... like not feeling nearly as big as ME1 and some plot problems like the Council coming down with a case of the retardeds / "Lets all get in the shuttle and leave the Normandy bereft of the people most able to defend her!"



I also would have liked a pared down inventory system rather than the clear cut we got and if it had stayed more faithful to the original rather than becoming pure 'chest high walls' TPS gameplay...



I didn't mind the mining game so much more because I researched Miranda's upgrade ASAP in all cases which makes stripping a planet a 2-3 minute affair...



ME1 warts and all was an A... right up there with BG2 as one of my top five RPG's... ME2 is probably in my top 15.. a B+... still a wonderful game though and certainly not a failure... a lot of people who complain bitterly can't seem to get over a few plot points like the ones above or decide things like "Reapers do not work that way!" when it comes to the end and stuff...



Top 5 things that were an improvement:

1. 12 fully fleshed out characters + Joker and EDI (who imo were fantastically done) that you could 'love' or 'hate' as opposed to 5 in the original ME (Kaiden was just blah).

2. Gameplay was quite fun... no one class stood out as opposed to ME1 where is was biotics or soldier all the way (Soldier in ME1 + insanity = joke... colossus X armor plus perma invul = I can stand in front of Geth Colossus W/O moving and still win).

3. Dialogue is just as good or better and the interrupts are kick ass... Core RPG elements were polished and added to... not messed around with or 'reinvented'

4. DLC's so far have been great... both the free and CE ones... Definitely buying Kasumi's DLC..

5. Just the overall feel of the game is wonderful... it all meshes very well and unlike some games like Borderlands which are either 'This part / feature is great, but this part / feature sucks so hard!' ME2 is uniformly good and the wonderful/terrible bumps are smoothed over into an overall very positive experience...



Top 5 "Things to be improved for ME3"

1. Integration of previous games... E-mails for 99% of the decisions and some nasty 'choice' glitches like the Sirta Foundation / Verner choices just aint gonna cut it... People who play ME3 are going to have played 1 and 2 or at least played 2... they will KNOW how the story goes... we don't need a 'restart' like in this game... they don't need their hand held... and the game will sell better if fans aren't treated to a copout just to satisfy 'newcomers'...

2. Reintroducing some more 'traditional' RPG elements and combat... A lot of valid complaint were made about things like the ammo system, losing all hint of the Mako (although the new vehicle looks to be a big redemption), power simplification and no more inventory... Gotta balance ME1 and ME2 gameplay... how? I dunno...

3. Better main plot... I have no complaints about the dirty dozen setup in ME2 but the third game has to be about Shepard vs. Reapers and well done at that... No retarded Council jsut to keep Cerberus in... no IFF shuttle idiocy... this is for the whole ball of wax... dangling plot threads need not apply...

4. Make the main areas at least as expansive as ME1.. Sure sometimes the bigness of the Citadel was annoying... but it was BIG... Omega and Zakeria Ward are not BIG... the missions were not BIG like the planets and main missions of ME1... Virmire alone was bigger / felt bigger than Freedom's Progress, Horizon and the Collector ship combined... I want the feeling of expansive planets and for the Citadel and Omega and any other 'base' to be big, not Oblivion size (God I hated that copy pasted snorefest) but a whole lot bigger than the shooting galleries and strip mall size planets we got in this game.

5. Multiple awesome endings are needed... not just a main renegade and main paragon but at least 2-3 more including a 'Reapers win' ending.

#203
anmiro

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 No it did not fail. While I do have some problems with the story and lack of RPG elements, I think the combat has greatly improved. I love the customizable N7 armor. I hate that TIM is the real commander of ME2, but I still think he is a very cool character. I hate planet scanning, but I also don't miss the Mako. The only improvement that I want to see in ME3 is the story. I still get warm feelings inside when I save the Council at the end of ME1. I get no such satisfaction at the end of ME2. When I save the Universe and stop the Reapers in ME3, Shepard had better get the vindication he deserves. 

#204
jklinders

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Terraneaux wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The game is Bioware's most successful to date both critically and commercially. To claim it failed by any objective means is outright absurd and only the most butthurt fanboys could possibly say so.



In general, game reviewers are bull****.  Some of them are paid by EA or someone to give the kind of review that's wanted by the publisher.  And I believe the commercial success of ME2 had a lot to do with ME1, and EA's hype machine, as opposed to any merit within ME2 itself.  .  As an earlier poster said, ME1 made them pre-order ME2, but ME2 made them not pre-order ME3.  

tl;dr: As long as we're insulting each other, only worthless sheeple would think that ME2 didn't fail.  


Hey now, be nice. just because my opinion differs from yours is no reason go shooting off like that. If the insult is directed at someone kindly mention them by name otherwise you are insulting a large number of people.

I could say a few nasty things about people who throw the word "sheeple" around but I won't :whistle:

#205
Terraneaux

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jklinders wrote...

Hey now, be nice. just because my opinion differs from yours is no reason go shooting off like that. If the insult is directed at someone kindly mention them by name otherwise you are insulting a large number of people.

I could say a few nasty things about people who throw the word "sheeple" around but I won't :whistle:


I was specifically referring to the poster I quoted, who leveled a blanket insult at anyone who disagreed with their point of view.  I'm not actually possessed of the belief that I mentioned, but rather was sarcastically making the point so as to highlight how silly SurfaceBeneath's statement was.  

#206
jklinders

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Terraneaux wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Hey now, be nice. just because my opinion differs from yours is no reason go shooting off like that. If the insult is directed at someone kindly mention them by name otherwise you are insulting a large number of people.

I could say a few nasty things about people who throw the word "sheeple" around but I won't :whistle:


I was specifically referring to the poster I quoted, who leveled a blanket insult at anyone who disagreed with their point of view.  I'm not actually possessed of the belief that I mentioned, but rather was sarcastically making the point so as to highlight how silly SurfaceBeneath's statement was.  


Fair enough, blanket statements in message boards are a little hazardous though. That could just as easily have been aimed at any number of people in this topic.
OT, I am finding that ME2 has increased my replay value of ME1 quite a bit. 2 months ago I would not have thought I was going to complete another playthrough of ME1. but I did just last week. When the whole trilogy is out I think we will find that the the three games together are worth more than the sums of their parts.

#207
Computron2000

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Terraneaux wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Hey now, be nice. just because my opinion differs from yours is no reason go shooting off like that. If the insult is directed at someone kindly mention them by name otherwise you are insulting a large number of people.

I could say a few nasty things about people who throw the word "sheeple" around but I won't :whistle:


I was specifically referring to the poster I quoted, who leveled a blanket insult at anyone who disagreed with their point of view.  I'm not actually possessed of the belief that I mentioned, but rather was sarcastically making the point so as to highlight how silly SurfaceBeneath's statement was.  


Ah, "blanket statements". Like people who don't like poems are idiots. Yes we have dismissed those claims.

#208
SurfaceBeneath

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Terraneaux wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Hey now, be nice. just because my opinion differs from yours is no reason go shooting off like that. If the insult is directed at someone kindly mention them by name otherwise you are insulting a large number of people.

I could say a few nasty things about people who throw the word "sheeple" around but I won't :whistle:


I was specifically referring to the poster I quoted, who leveled a blanket insult at anyone who disagreed with their point of view.  I'm not actually possessed of the belief that I mentioned, but rather was sarcastically making the point so as to highlight how silly SurfaceBeneath's statement was.  


Son, you just done hurped a durp.

I said the game was by all objective measures (units sold and critic reviews) a huge success, Bioware's biggest in fact. That statement in no way reflects the quality of the game to you or me or anyone else. I wasn't saying you can't not like it, I was just saying you'd have to be a deluded fanboy to look at those figures and draw any other conclusions.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 16 mars 2010 - 09:15 .


#209
SurfaceBeneath

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superimposed wrote...

A success does not mean that it's good.
Dan Brown is a successful Author, but he's a **** writer.
So no, he's not right.


Difference being that Dan Brown is commercially successful, but not critically so. Most literature critics consider his books junk food fiction and of little literary merit (as someone with a degree in English, I concur).

Mass Effect 2 is both critically acclaimed by every credible gaming source out there (inb4 conspiracy theories about EA paying off reviewers, look at the metacritic score for Dante's Inferno and get back to me on that) as well as has moved quite a few copies in the short amount of time it's been out.

#210
SurfaceBeneath

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Double post is double posted.

Edit : Nevermind, couldn't find the picture I wanted :(

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 16 mars 2010 - 09:21 .


#211
Terraneaux

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Son, you just done hurped a durp.

I said the game was by all objective measures (units sold and critic reviews) a huge success, Bioware's biggest in fact. That statement in no way reflects the quality of the game to you or me or anyone else. I wasn't saying you can't not like it, I was just saying you'd have to be a deluded fanboy to look at those figures and draw any other conclusions.


Reviews are always subjective, even if they aren't motivated by bribery.  And remember, the OP wasn't talking about commercial success, but rather whether the game 'delivered in your mind.'  In my mind, it doesn't.  

#212
padaE

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ME2 is easily the best game I have ever played.

.

For exemple, I loved AC2... when I finished I was dying to play ACIII, but that was it. Never played the game again.

.

ME2 after I finished the game I started another and another and another...

#213
Terraneaux

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Computron2000 wrote...

Ah, "blanket statements". Like people who don't like poems are idiots. Yes we have dismissed those claims.


The answer is simple.  SurfaceBeneath's blanket statement was incorrect, mine was not.  :D

As long as we're talking about hypocrisy, I believe Walt Whitman has something to say about it:

"(...) Do I contradict myself?
Very well then, I contradict myself.
(I am large, I contain multudes).

(...)"

#214
CmdrFenix83

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Gonna cut your post down and respond to only the parts I disagree with, IE your 'to be improved' section.

alphax1 wrote...

Top 5 "Things to be improved for ME3"
1. Integration of previous games... E-mails for 99% of the decisions and some nasty 'choice' glitches like the Sirta Foundation / Verner choices just aint gonna cut it... People who play ME3 are going to have played 1 and 2 or at least played 2... they will KNOW how the story goes... we don't need a 'restart' like in this game... they don't need their hand held... and the game will sell better if fans aren't treated to a copout just to satisfy 'newcomers'...


The emails are there as simply a reminder that you did a sidequest.  That's all.  You helped someone's life improve, and they wished to thank you for it.  It was simply a reminder that BioWare has carried your decisions over.  Almost none of these e-mails involved a major decision.  Those major decisions were very evident in the way the world felt.  If the Council died, you could truly feel the resentment for that from the way you were treated on the Citadel. 

ME3 will definitely not have another 'restart'.  For all we know, the only reason we're capped at level 30, could be because they plan to carry our characters exactly from 2-3 and let us go to 60 on them again.  The reboot wasn't to satisfy newcomers, it was to reset Shepard after doing away with the poor leveling/combat system from the first game.  You also can't claim the 3rd will sell better due to lack of reboot, because if the trend holds, it'll most likely sell better than the previous two regardless of how they handle the story.  ME2 is a very successful game, even if the RPG elitists are upset about things being removed/streamlined.

2. Reintroducing some more 'traditional' RPG elements and combat... A lot of valid complaint were made about things like the ammo system, losing all hint of the Mako (although the new vehicle looks to be a big redemption), power simplification and no more inventory... Gotta balance ME1 and ME2 gameplay... how? I dunno...


'Traditional' is the problem.  They're dated.  Old.  Out of place.  Even Square-enix has finally learned that it's time to start evolving the series.  Gone are the days of grinding for experience.  Gone are the days of massive worlds where people can get lost.  Those things are now staples in MMO's. 

The ammo system won't be going anywhere.  It's a vast improvement over the previous game, if anything, they'll make a light pistol or something that uses the old overheat system just to satisfy the individuals that do nothing but complain over something so minor(lookin' at you, Daeion) as the lore justification.  Otherwise, the finite ammo does exactly what it's supposed to do.  Prevents you from wasting ammo needlessly, and punishes you for doing so.  It also ensures you don't make it your entire character's goal in life to just use the Widow.  That's why the gun is so powerful, because you cannot use it 100% of the time.

Mako, I don't miss at all, mostly due to the poor controls(xbox) and massive waste-of-time that was the barren landscapes of the uncharted worlds.  It wasn't a problem on the story planets, where there was a purpose for where you were going and stuff to kill on the way, but the vast planes of nothingness and absurdly annoying mountains and pitfalls with stuff in them will most likely never be seen again... for a good reason.

Explain power simplification.  If you mean the short cooldown that lets you actually use a power more than once, twice a fight, then sure.  If you mean that they turned 12 skill points worth of 3 ability levels into 10 points worth of 4, then sure.  However, the fact that they can all be used without pausing makes them dramatically more fun to use.  I played a soldier as my 'main' in ME1, it was simply the most fun class to play.  Pausing every two seconds to use an ability detracts from combat and gameplay.  That's why the system was changed to begin with.

In short, I don't think the RPG purists are going to be happy with ME3 either.  The combat is highly praised in ME2 because they took the game apart and redesigned it from the ground up.  They've admitted they had zero experience with shooter combat, and went with what they know is popular and works.  We'll certainly see new abilities and the like, especially if they do just add another 30 levels for us, but don't go into ME3 expecting another combat overhaul.  They got it right this time around.

3. Better main plot... I have no complaints about the dirty dozen setup in ME2 but the third game has to be about Shepard vs. Reapers and well done at that... No retarded Council jsut to keep Cerberus in... no IFF shuttle idiocy... this is for the whole ball of wax... dangling plot threads need not apply...


The setup is giving us our team for the next game for the most part.  I expect we'll see Kaiden/Ash/Liara rejoin our squad making it all the surviving members of ME1 and ME2 with maybe one or two new ones to round it out.  Beyond that, it'll be focused on stopping the Reapers permanently.

The Council could be playing dumb because of your current ties to Cerberus, they may be indoctrinated.  We simply don't know.  There are many things in this game that won't be explained until the next one.  However, have you tried playing through ME1 after ME2?  Things like the vision from the beacons... watching the circuits attached to the organic pieces... sounds like Mordin's explanation of the Collectors doesn't it?  "No digestive system, replaced by tech..." etc. 

Garrus speculates that he's worried the Council might be protecting Saren... what if they were?  Vigil states that the Citadel emits a signal of its' own to control the Keepers, and that the Keepers are now controlled by it.  What if the Council, who have had their meeting area right next to its' central control unit, are also now under the control of the station?  Too much foreshadowing here to ignore, I think.  We won't know until the plot is completed.

The Joker mission... I honestly don't know what to say here.  My first reaction to putting the whole team on the shuttle was confusion as well.  Every time we've taken the shuttle for missions, Shepard has left with only 2 others.  Why would he go out with all of them now?  I can't come up with anything other than 'BioWare needed the crew off the ship'.

4. Make the main areas at least as expansive as ME1.. Sure sometimes the bigness of the Citadel was annoying... but it was BIG... Omega and Zakeria Ward are not BIG... the missions were not BIG like the planets and main missions of ME1... Virmire alone was bigger / felt bigger than Freedom's Progress, Horizon and the Collector ship combined... I want the feeling of expansive planets and for the Citadel and Omega and any other 'base' to be big, not Oblivion size (God I hated that copy pasted snorefest) but a whole lot bigger than the shooting galleries and strip mall size planets we got in this game.


Virmire only felt bigger because you spent the first third of the mission in the Mako driving over long stretches of nothingness with the occasional Geth drone/trooper/Collosus in the way.  It was essentially three smaller missions combined.  Mako drive up, Infiltrate to reach Beacon, then Plant Bomb and leave. 

You also have to remember, that there are more missions in ME2 overall than there was in ME1.  You could clear ME1 in about 10 hours(not skipping dialogue) if you skipped all the side content, which was essentially spending 10 minutes driving across barren terrain to pick up a handful of items, some minerals, and then 2 minutes of combat... per planet. 

In ME2, if you did only the bare minimum, you still have to go through all 4 of the first recruitment missions(assuming roughly an hour not skipping dialogue just like I'm not assuming you did in ME1), then Horizon(another hour).  Now you have to do what, 5 missions to trigger the Collector Ship?  I know you need 8 squadmates, but you don't get it immediately if you just recruit that many.  Hell, you only need to recruit 1 to hit that mark.  So assume you just recruit 1, then do loyalty missions for the rest, that's another 4-5 hours.  Then Collector Ship/IFF/Suicide mission, another 2. 

Even blazing through to beat ME2 as fast as possible, no scanning, no sidequests, it still comes out to at least 12 hours without skipping dialogue.  There are just more missions. 

Now, ME1 felt bigger environmentally, becuase it was possible to just charge straight at your enemies with the trigger down.  Cover was unnecessary, despite its' inclusion.  Most of that space was just pointless.  Also realize, that most of the time, in ME2, we're fighting inside of buildings or in urban areas as opposed to giant, barren wastelands. 

The only reason the Citadel was so enormous in ME1, was because there were 10+ sidequests there that had you running all over the place.  In ME2, the Citadel sectioned off those areas(Garrus and Thane's loyalty missions).  These missions alone make the Citadel much larger in square meters than it was int he previous game.  There's just less social areas to visit.

5. Multiple awesome endings are needed... not just a main renegade and main paragon but at least 2-3 more including a 'Reapers win' ending.


Only reason we've been restricted to 2 endings each game so far is that they want to make ME3 possible.  We've already got 4 possible imports to ME3, Council dead-base kept, Council dead-base destroyed, Council alive-base kept, and Council alive-base destroyed.  That's 4 different starting points for ME3.  The Collector base also has the side effect of 'are you still working for Cerberus?'.  This will allow for a dramatically different feel for ME3 depending on what combination your character fits into.  Either way, this lends itself already to 4 potential endings. 

Council Alive-Base Destroyed:  Spectre Shepard defeats Reapers and the entire galaxy ends up in a mostly happy-happy world of much Kumbahya singing and galaxtic harmony between the races.

Council Dead-Base Destroyed:  Likely similar to the first one, except Shepard works with the Alliance and takes down the Reapers, letting humanity lead the galaxy in the end in a mostly diplomatic way.

Council Dead-Base Kept:  The pure-renegade ending.  Cerberus operative Shepard becomes Darth Shepard to Emperor Illusive Man, conquering the galaxy after eliminating the Reaper threat.

Council Alive-Base Kept:  This one I'm not sure on.  Cerberus operative Shepard takes down the Reapers ending in a massive civil war with the remaining Citadel forces...?  I got nothing here.

But still, the reason the results of our choices weren't so impacting was because they need a somewhat similar set of starting points for ME3.  They can't go all over the place without making the game impossible to make.  I expect a dramatically different galaxy in ME3 between the Council Alive-Base Destroyed Shepards than the one the Council Dead-Base Kept Shepards get.

PS:  My god that post was long.  If anyone read all of it, I'm sorry, but I thank you for your time. :unsure:

#215
SurfaceBeneath

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Terraneaux wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Son, you just done hurped a durp.

I said the game was by all objective measures (units sold and critic reviews) a huge success, Bioware's biggest in fact. That statement in no way reflects the quality of the game to you or me or anyone else. I wasn't saying you can't not like it, I was just saying you'd have to be a deluded fanboy to look at those figures and draw any other conclusions.


Reviews are always subjective, even if they aren't motivated by bribery.  And remember, the OP wasn't talking about commercial success, but rather whether the game 'delivered in your mind.'  In my mind, it doesn't.  


No duh reviews are subjective, however they are the most objective standard we have to determine the quality of games (Notice I had prefaced my statement with "BY ALL OBJECTIVE MEASURES". A percentage score is, such as 96%, cannot be judged subjectively. It's 96% no matter what angle you look at it). If they weren't then they wouldn't exist. I don't care how butthurt you personally are that a game you didn't like got reviewed higher than you believe it should have, that doesn't change the fact that all reviews of art, be they of literature, paintings, films, or even games, only exist because consumers desire an impartial measure of quality on a subject that necessarily cannot be defined objectively and trust the expertise of a select few individuals who make their careers out of being well versed in what makes a "good" game.

So if you want to rail against all critics of everything ever, then I am sure there is a forum for you to voice that opinion. Probably isn't here though.

Also, seriously lol at people who think EA seriously has the influence to bribe a game to a 96% on Metacritic taken from a hundred reviews in publications from all over the world. I've seen more compelling arguments that 9/11 was done by the US government and that the moon landing never happened.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 16 mars 2010 - 09:41 .


#216
Karstedt

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Fail in what?



They made a fun game. And it seems like they succeeded in doing exactly what they set out to do if you look at the presentation from the lead designer.



They failed to meet my expectations though. The details of which have been covered by other threads.

#217
Terraneaux

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

So if you want to rail against all critics of everything ever, then I am sure there is a forum for you to voice that opinion. Probably isn't here though.


Video game reviews in particular have never been high criticism.

#218
KotOREffecT

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CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Gonna cut your post down and respond to only the parts I disagree with, IE your 'to be improved' section.

alphax1 wrote...

Top 5 "Things to be improved for ME3"
1. Integration of previous games... E-mails for 99% of the decisions and some nasty 'choice' glitches like the Sirta Foundation / Verner choices just aint gonna cut it... People who play ME3 are going to have played 1 and 2 or at least played 2... they will KNOW how the story goes... we don't need a 'restart' like in this game... they don't need their hand held... and the game will sell better if fans aren't treated to a copout just to satisfy 'newcomers'...


The emails are there as simply a reminder that you did a sidequest.  That's all.  You helped someone's life improve, and they wished to thank you for it.  It was simply a reminder that BioWare has carried your decisions over.  Almost none of these e-mails involved a major decision.  Those major decisions were very evident in the way the world felt.  If the Council died, you could truly feel the resentment for that from the way you were treated on the Citadel. 

ME3 will definitely not have another 'restart'.  For all we know, the only reason we're capped at level 30, could be because they plan to carry our characters exactly from 2-3 and let us go to 60 on them again.  The reboot wasn't to satisfy newcomers, it was to reset Shepard after doing away with the poor leveling/combat system from the first game.  You also can't claim the 3rd will sell better due to lack of reboot, because if the trend holds, it'll most likely sell better than the previous two regardless of how they handle the story.  ME2 is a very successful game, even if the RPG elitists are upset about things being removed/streamlined.



2. Reintroducing some more 'traditional' RPG elements and combat... A lot of valid complaint were made about things like the ammo system, losing all hint of the Mako (although the new vehicle looks to be a big redemption), power simplification and no more inventory... Gotta balance ME1 and ME2 gameplay... how? I dunno...


'Traditional' is the problem.  They're dated.  Old.  Out of place.  Even Square-enix has finally learned that it's time to start evolving the series.  Gone are the days of grinding for experience.  Gone are the days of massive worlds where people can get lost.  Those things are now staples in MMO's. 

The ammo system won't be going anywhere.  It's a vast improvement over the previous game, if anything, they'll make a light pistol or something that uses the old overheat system just to satisfy the individuals that do nothing but complain over something so minor(lookin' at you, Daeion) as the lore justification.  Otherwise, the finite ammo does exactly what it's supposed to do.  Prevents you from wasting ammo needlessly, and punishes you for doing so.  It also ensures you don't make it your entire character's goal in life to just use the Widow.  That's why the gun is so powerful, because you cannot use it 100% of the time.

Mako, I don't miss at all, mostly due to the poor controls(xbox) and massive waste-of-time that was the barren landscapes of the uncharted worlds.  It wasn't a problem on the story planets, where there was a purpose for where you were going and stuff to kill on the way, but the vast planes of nothingness and absurdly annoying mountains and pitfalls with stuff in them will most likely never be seen again... for a good reason.

Explain power simplification.  If you mean the short cooldown that lets you actually use a power more than once, twice a fight, then sure.  If you mean that they turned 12 skill points worth of 3 ability levels into 10 points worth of 4, then sure.  However, the fact that they can all be used without pausing makes them dramatically more fun to use.  I played a soldier as my 'main' in ME1, it was simply the most fun class to play.  Pausing every two seconds to use an ability detracts from combat and gameplay.  That's why the system was changed to begin with.

In short, I don't think the RPG purists are going to be happy with ME3 either.  The combat is highly praised in ME2 because they took the game apart and redesigned it from the ground up.  They've admitted they had zero experience with shooter combat, and went with what they know is popular and works.  We'll certainly see new abilities and the like, especially if they do just add another 30 levels for us, but don't go into ME3 expecting another combat overhaul.  They got it right this time around.



3. Better main plot... I have no complaints about the dirty dozen setup in ME2 but the third game has to be about Shepard vs. Reapers and well done at that... No retarded Council jsut to keep Cerberus in... no IFF shuttle idiocy... this is for the whole ball of wax... dangling plot threads need not apply...


The setup is giving us our team for the next game for the most part.  I expect we'll see Kaiden/Ash/Liara rejoin our squad making it all the surviving members of ME1 and ME2 with maybe one or two new ones to round it out.  Beyond that, it'll be focused on stopping the Reapers permanently.

The Council could be playing dumb because of your current ties to Cerberus, they may be indoctrinated.  We simply don't know.  There are many things in this game that won't be explained until the next one.  However, have you tried playing through ME1 after ME2?  Things like the vision from the beacons... watching the circuits attached to the organic pieces... sounds like Mordin's explanation of the Collectors doesn't it?  "No digestive system, replaced by tech..." etc. 

Garrus speculates that he's worried the Council might be protecting Saren... what if they were?  Vigil states that the Citadel emits a signal of its' own to control the Keepers, and that the Keepers are now controlled by it.  What if the Council, who have had their meeting area right next to its' central control unit, are also now under the control of the station?  Too much foreshadowing here to ignore, I think.  We won't know until the plot is completed.

The Joker mission... I honestly don't know what to say here.  My first reaction to putting the whole team on the shuttle was confusion as well.  Every time we've taken the shuttle for missions, Shepard has left with only 2 others.  Why would he go out with all of them now?  I can't come up with anything other than 'BioWare needed the crew off the ship'.



4. Make the main areas at least as expansive as ME1.. Sure sometimes the bigness of the Citadel was annoying... but it was BIG... Omega and Zakeria Ward are not BIG... the missions were not BIG like the planets and main missions of ME1... Virmire alone was bigger / felt bigger than Freedom's Progress, Horizon and the Collector ship combined... I want the feeling of expansive planets and for the Citadel and Omega and any other 'base' to be big, not Oblivion size (God I hated that copy pasted snorefest) but a whole lot bigger than the shooting galleries and strip mall size planets we got in this game.


Virmire only felt bigger because you spent the first third of the mission in the Mako driving over long stretches of nothingness with the occasional Geth drone/trooper/Collosus in the way.  It was essentially three smaller missions combined.  Mako drive up, Infiltrate to reach Beacon, then Plant Bomb and leave. 

You also have to remember, that there are more missions in ME2 overall than there was in ME1.  You could clear ME1 in about 10 hours(not skipping dialogue) if you skipped all the side content, which was essentially spending 10 minutes driving across barren terrain to pick up a handful of items, some minerals, and then 2 minutes of combat... per planet. 

In ME2, if you did only the bare minimum, you still have to go through all 4 of the first recruitment missions(assuming roughly an hour not skipping dialogue just like I'm not assuming you did in ME1), then Horizon(another hour).  Now you have to do what, 5 missions to trigger the Collector Ship?  I know you need 8 squadmates, but you don't get it immediately if you just recruit that many.  Hell, you only need to recruit 1 to hit that mark.  So assume you just recruit 1, then do loyalty missions for the rest, that's another 4-5 hours.  Then Collector Ship/IFF/Suicide mission, another 2. 

Even blazing through to beat ME2 as fast as possible, no scanning, no sidequests, it still comes out to at least 12 hours without skipping dialogue.  There are just more missions. 

Now, ME1 felt bigger environmentally, becuase it was possible to just charge straight at your enemies with the trigger down.  Cover was unnecessary, despite its' inclusion.  Most of that space was just pointless.  Also realize, that most of the time, in ME2, we're fighting inside of buildings or in urban areas as opposed to giant, barren wastelands. 

The only reason the Citadel was so enormous in ME1, was because there were 10+ sidequests there that had you running all over the place.  In ME2, the Citadel sectioned off those areas(Garrus and Thane's loyalty missions).  These missions alone make the Citadel much larger in square meters than it was int he previous game.  There's just less social areas to visit.



5. Multiple awesome endings are needed... not just a main renegade and main paragon but at least 2-3 more including a 'Reapers win' ending.


Only reason we've been restricted to 2 endings each game so far is that they want to make ME3 possible.  We've already got 4 possible imports to ME3, Council dead-base kept, Council dead-base destroyed, Council alive-base kept, and Council alive-base destroyed.  That's 4 different starting points for ME3.  The Collector base also has the side effect of 'are you still working for Cerberus?'.  This will allow for a dramatically different feel for ME3 depending on what combination your character fits into.  Either way, this lends itself already to 4 potential endings. 

Council Alive-Base Destroyed:  Spectre Shepard defeats Reapers and the entire galaxy ends up in a mostly happy-happy world of much Kumbahya singing and galaxtic harmony between the races.

Council Dead-Base Destroyed:  Likely similar to the first one, except Shepard works with the Alliance and takes down the Reapers, letting humanity lead the galaxy in the end in a mostly diplomatic way.

Council Dead-Base Kept:  The pure-renegade ending.  Cerberus operative Shepard becomes Darth Shepard to Emperor Illusive Man, conquering the galaxy after eliminating the Reaper threat.

Council Alive-Base Kept:  This one I'm not sure on.  Cerberus operative Shepard takes down the Reapers ending in a massive civil war with the remaining Citadel forces...?  I got nothing here.

But still, the reason the results of our choices weren't so impacting was because they need a somewhat similar set of starting points for ME3.  They can't go all over the place without making the game impossible to make.  I expect a dramatically different galaxy in ME3 between the Council Alive-Base Destroyed Shepards than the one the Council Dead-Base Kept Shepards get.

PS:  My god that post was long.  If anyone read all of it, I'm sorry, but I thank you for your time. :unsure:


Correct about pretty much everything, you were spot on! Esp about the hubs not seeming big because of the loyalty and recruit missions taking up space, thats what I've been trying to tell people. And the whole email system about and small choices you made in ME 1, were they ever suppose to change the game in ME 2?

Once again, spot on man.

Modifié par KotOREffecT, 16 mars 2010 - 10:07 .


#219
Llandaryn

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So in retrospect, did ME 2 fail?


They have your money. They have my money. I can't really call that 'failing'.

#220
SurfaceBeneath

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Terraneaux wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

So if you want to rail against all critics of everything ever, then I am sure there is a forum for you to voice that opinion. Probably isn't here though.


Video game reviews in particular have never been high criticism.

While video games are a very new art form that hasn't been around long enough to develop the kind of history that we generally judge a body of work against in other categories, Video Game reviews are no fundamentally different than any other kind of review. You take someone "specialized" in the area (in this case, someone who has played a ton of video games and can pick out their somewhat objective qualities) and have them compare it to their peers, either within their own category, or rarely against others (IE: Heavy Rain to a movie, Planescape: Torment to a book, or Shadow of the Collosus to a painting), and form what, we as the consumers expect is, an unbiased opinion as to its quality.

Video Game critics are restricted to all the same checks and balances that movie or literature critics are. Namely, that if the opinions they give are consistently off base and they consistently reccomend bad titles or bash good ones, their opinion becomes no longer trusted and they cannot get employed since no one is going to read and trust their reviews (and by extension, buy whatever publication it is published in). The internet obviously mucks that up a bit, since any one can get a blog and say what they want to say regardless of who is going to read it, however if you go to a review compiling site like Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic, you tend to find that they do a decent job of only posting reviews by "credible" critics.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 16 mars 2010 - 10:15 .


#221
Talogrungi

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As a game, definate success.

As the middle of an epic trilogy; impossible to say 'til ME3.

If the events of ME2 are inconsequential to the plot of ME3 then I will consider ME2 to have failed to progress the storyline. If the reverse is true and the defeat of the Collectors is a vital component of ME3 then I will consider ME2 to have succeeded in progressing the storyline.

#222
SkywardDescent

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It was successful.

A negligible portion of ME2 players come to these forums, and the "die-hard" fans of ME1 will find the smallest flaw, and say the game is ruined.

#223
DrunkenGoon

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Personally in no way did this game fail.. After I beat the first game I never went back and played it again.. At least not until I played through ME2.. I went back to see how drastic the changes were and to basically make a couple different choices.. I advise anyone who thinks that ME2 is a failure to actually go back and play the first game again..



To me ME1 was pretty tedious. The mako, the constant need to turn EVERYTHING into omni-gel, the very annoying combat system as well.. I still love the first game but the improvements made to ME2 were definitely well done. The only things that I felt could have been approved upon was Zaeed and the LI stories should probably have been a bit more in-depth than they were.. Otherwise I thought this game was leaps and bounds better than the first.. Not perfect but close..

#224
tertium organum

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Daeion wrote...



At this point I know that I'll be buying ME3, but I doubt I'll be rushing to preorder or get it within the first month because I don't feel the same way about ME2 that I felt about ME.


Right. I'm simply not that hyped about the third game anymore. 

Modifié par tertium organum, 16 mars 2010 - 10:48 .


#225
Iz Stoik zI

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This thread sucks.



It didn't fail at all, it just failed to live up to some of the absurd expectations that were placed on it by naive cynics. The gameplay was vastly improved, the story was tightened up and expanded, squad members personalities were flushed out more, and so on.



As a standalone game, it is a great success. Whether this game retains that status forever depends on what Mass Effect 3 brings to the table. We shall see.