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[in a bit of a pickle]

I'm in the middle of my second ME2 playthrough and it occurred to
me that while I throughly enjoyed the heroic posturing Shepard gets to
indulge in, either in order to save every kitten in the edge of the
galaxy or using them as live bio-additives to the Normandy's fuel
system, I couldn't help to think how all the moral choices would feel
if the Paragon/Renegade system was different.


***Simplified Version of this post****

You have been ordered by the Council to go to a Colony and retrieve valuable research data. Once there you realise you can either follow orders but leave the colonists to die or ignore orders and save the people and lose the data.

So:

1. Para/Ren points awarded based on following/ignoring Council's orders.
2. Assumption that orders received have ONLY the best interests of the whole galaxy at heart. But may still be flawed, morally inadmissable.
3. You can hold to your morals (save the people) but become a renegade (disobeyed a direct order to save the data and let the people die).
4. Renegades lose standing with council (access to missions, prototypes). Paragons dont but lose standing with the people (grossly overpriced items, people defecting becoming traitors: aka Saren's Syndrome)


*** Extended version with justification explanation, discuss if you are interested. ***

What if, under the assumption that as an SPECTRE agent we are tasked with protecting Council Space, our Paragon/Renegade scores were determined by our adherence to instructions/orders received from the Citadel?

Presumably, the Council wants nothing but to protect every race in Council Space and their orders would reflect just that. No, they are not infallible. Yes, they will screw up and big time at that sometimes. Still...

Consider a mission where you can save either valuable research data or people. ME2 rewards your choice with the appropriate Paragon or Renegade scores (Para for saving people, Ren for saving data).

Now, what if the Council had expressely tasked you with saving the data? They know how many lives will be lost but they assure you saving it would be of tremendous help in better preparing for what is to come. They even show you projections. Data, ETof completion, prototypes, etc.

So you get there and you are presented with the choice:

Do I follow orders and lose the people (Paragon points. Because we are looking at the big picture, giving a better chance to the rest of the whole galaxy, etc) or do I give the Council the finger and save the people? (Renegade points. We disregarded an, in our view, ammoral order. We can lose bits of metal and machines but what is there to fight for once we've lost our humanity?)*

So then Para/Ren scores are tied to our own moral compass and how it is placed at odds with the orders we receive. Orders which we must presume are given with the best interest of the Galaxy at heart (I am not sure the words Paragon and Renegade are the best to express this but I can't think of better ones at the moment)

To make our choices matter in terms of gameplay mechanics -even though I think the added layer of morality and decision making would be a nice addition on its own,  flaunting Council authority could have an impact on access to classified information (a few missions) or gear (the prototype you lost in our hypothetical mission) while constantly jeopardizing civilian lives would mean people would become increasingly hostile, to the extent one can be hostile to an SPECTRE, say by refusing to relay information that leads to missions in which you can capture biotic prototypes, etc.or grossly overinflating store prices ("Oh you want to threaten me over the  price of this gun? *vendor's face starts contorting with rage* I lost my husband on that colony. Because of you. Do I look like a woman with a reason to live? Just go ahead and pull the damn trigger!" All this while there are witnesses all around you)

Consider further, by adhering to Citadel authority you alienate the very people you are trying to protect to the point they start to feel there might be a better option and if we are going to die anyways maybe it'd be best to cooperate with the big stonking beetle-y new overlords? So now they have switched sides and now of course you must go and give them a good thump over the head 'cause they didn't know cooperating would cost them their brains and oh brother look at the mess we are in now. Maybe, just maybe this will be enough to let everybody else know cooperating is not an option. Maybe, just maybe things will work out in the end even if nobody trusts your good intentions...

Or, you have steadily won the respect and affection of most council races in equal measure but the higher echelons in the Citadel are now weary of your actions and question if you are fit for command in more critical missions. And besides, what good will a few million lightly armed citizens will be in the face of the coming threat?. No matter how much they have come to respect Council authority through Shepard's actions, what difference can it possibly make?

Oh well, just something I was thinking about yesterday as I had a go at some missions with two squaddies that have pretty different points of view on just about everything



*I use 'humanity' the way it's used in the Ender's Game books. To encompass all sentient species capable of communication (I think that's the def). It's still a less than stellar word but the effect intended I think is to say, 'we ALL are in this together...

PS. Sorry for vague wording and ideas. I just wanted to make sure no spoilers would slip in by mistake.

Modifié par in a bit of a pickle, 15 mars 2010 - 09:13 .

[Chuvvy]

So from what I read which was like the first paragraph I agree. The point I think you were trying to get across from what I read was. You want to get both Paragon and Renegade points for some decisions. Admittedly I didn't get to your first point but whatever,I put it together in my mind and made point that I agree with,take it or leave it.

[in a bit of a pickle]

Okay, edited to show a simplified version for the reading averse.



Slidel505: No, I don't want to get Para/Ren points at the same time. I want my own moral compass to sometimes be at odds with the orders I receive. So that a Renegade may become so because he does the good thing while disobeying direct orders that might be morally ambivalent, even if nothing but well intentioned.

[loengrim]

problem should be solved if shep remains chaotic neutral.

but this thread reeks of chaotic evil.



my moral compass begs me to troll. but i shall not. (+5 paragon points for me)

[Zulu_DFA]

Paragon =/= good

Renegade =/= bad



As was explained by the "scars system" (see: Dr. Chackwas e-mail) it's not about morality, it's about emotions. Something like Paragon = tranquil, Renegade = frantic.



Good = stopping the Reapers or making this outcome more likely.

Bad = letting the Reapers eradicate all sapient life or making this outcome more likely.



So far both Paragon AND Renegade choices carried Shepard apparently closer to stopping the Reapers. Like the Devs say: either way Commander Shepard is the Champion of Survival (Good).



The question is: can Shepard even fail? In the end of ME3, that is. The way he could die on the "suicide mission"?



If the Bad (Reapers win) outcome is possible in ME3, and it somehow involves the choices that have been made in ME1&2, then those choices are inherently good or bad.



So, we have to wait till the Grand Final Battle of ME3, which will be the ultimate measure of how good or bad this or that choice was.



If the choices made so far are not going to affect the "winnability" of the Final Battle, then they are all Neutral from the moral point of view, and only have emotional value.



If they do affect the outcome of the Final Battle, they have moral value. They are Good or Bad. But it's definitely not like only the Paragon choices will help win the Final Battle and the Renegade choices will necessarily hamper the ultimate victory.



Tranquil =/= good



Frantic =/= bad



And the conclusion is this:



When you click on the BLUE you don't necessarily make the Galaxy a "better place". You make your Shepard-Commander more TRANQUIL.



Likewise, the RED line does not mean you harmed the Galaxy, You just became +5 points more FRANTIC guy.

[Blk_Mage_Ctype]

I've got full Paragon and 25% Renegade.



Did mostly Paragon, yet killed Merc Mechanic on Archangel recruitment mission, punched tabloid reporter in the face, burned Blood Pack Krogan Leader in Mordin's Loyalty Mission, headbutt krogan in Grunt's Loyalty Mission, and shot the mercs in Miranda's Loyalty Mission.



You can still be Paragon and make afew Renegade choices.