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[Andorfiend]

I just played through the Human Noble Origin again and it really struck me this time what an unbelieveable jerk Duncan is.

I'm watching my father die in front of me, and he insists on recruiting me me as the price of taking me and my mother through our own secret tunnels, which btw he would have died without. I was trying to insist that finding Fergus was my priority and he just invoked the right of conscription! Then he reneged on his deal and left my mother behind.

As far as I can tell at this point my character would be perfectly justified in slitting Duncan's bearded neck and leaving him in a ditch, since my first duty has to be towards the protection of my family and people from Arl Howe's treachery. If Fergus is OK then I suppose I could go off and be a Grey Warden, but given that at this moment in the game my character could well be the last Cousland and Duncan is an oathbreaker who is attempting to conscript one of the three most powerful nobles in the country I don't think there is a jury in the world that would blame me for offing the bastard and going about my rightful duties rather than Duncans little errands.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, it was pretty awful. To be fair to Duncan, though, your mother refused to leave so it's not like he went back on his deal. Time was of the essence, after all.

[Elastic Otter]

To play up the other side, he saved you family by allowing you (and the Cousland line) to live.

Did he get something out of it? Yes. But, the Couslands understood the futility of the situation, and wanted the Warden to live, for the family and revenge/justice.

[Sarah1281]

Although the HN playthrough was the one where I felt Duncan was being more self-serving than the others. In all of the other origins, you really don't have anywhere else to go or would literally die without bcoming a Warden, for the Dalish. A Cousland in Ferelden does have options.

[Andorfiend]

Elastic Otter wrote...

To play up the other side, he saved you family by allowing you (and the Cousland line) to live.
Did he get something out of it? Yes. But, the Couslands understood the futility of the situation, and wanted the Warden to live, for the family and revenge/justice.

How exactly? He didn't help us get to the secret door, in fact I saved his life by showing him where it was. As far as I can figure it Duncan didn't do a damn thing for me except maybe save me 5 minutes of hunting around camp trying to find the King.

[draxynnus]

Elastic Otter wrote...

To play up the other side, he saved you family by allowing you (and the Cousland line) to live.
Did he get something out of it? Yes. But, the Couslands understood the futility of the situation, and wanted the Warden to live, for the family and revenge/justice.

Except if you are the last of your line, he's forcing you to join an order that has fertility issues. It would be a reasonable conclusion that the end result of taking Duncan's deal is simply to delay the extinction of the line by a generation.

[Janni-in-VA]

Your parents want you to live, and Duncan is your best chance. Your mother refused to leave your father, a position I can certainly understand. They had been together so long that she wanted to see the end with him. As a Gray Warden, you are out of Howe's reach, and your brother is with the army at Ostagar, so you'd be going that way regardless. With Duncan, you can actually get there alive. Yes, Duncan wants recruits for the Gray Wardens. It's a Blight; he needs every able body he can get his hands on. I've played it both ways -- arguing to the point where he has to conscript me and going along with my parents' wishes (to leave with Duncan and live). Both ways are valid. However, since the whole point of the origin story is to get you into the Gray Wardens and off to Ostagar, surely even you must see the plot necessities at work here.

[Elastic Otter]

Good points.
Janni-in-VA:  I like you're thoughts on Howe.  Would your parents want to sacrifice you Howe?  Nope--they'd give you a shot at justice.  And, your parents want you uphold the line, unbeknownst that your "Grey Warden Ticket" leaves you sterile. 

Off that last point, Duncan might have to gulp sheepishly.  However, it's the only thing he CAN offer to the Couslands, who are suffering.

Also, Duncan does acknowledge that you have a brother: Fergus. And although you can't go off after him right away, you are under the impression that you can alert him. And although you might be sterile, at least he can be found. And, your Cousland parents would want that, too.

Modifié par Elastic Otter, 16 mars 2010 - 02:49 .

[Rake21]

The way I saw it, Duncan could have just left when Howe attacked.  Instead, he fights alongside the Couslands for as long as he can.  When it becomes clear that the battle's lost  and there's nothing he can do for your dying father, he tries to save you and your mother.

She decides that she'd rather stay with your dad to buy you and Duncan some time.  And yeah, Duncan does ask for permission to make you a Warden, but after reading The Calling, I don't think he'd have left you if you'd have said no.

Though, I can see where you're coming from.  All depends on prespective.

[Tinnic]

Duncan's preferred recruits do seem to be those who are in a bind and need to join the Grey Wardens in order to survive the day. Makes sense, given being a Grey Warden is a "death sentence" as Alistair put it. Even Alistair himself needed the Grey Wardens to get out of being a Templar. So the question really is, how desperate was the situation of the young Cousland master? Was he really going to die if Duncan did not intervene? If so, then Duncan did for the Cousland child exactly what he did with the others,

[Addai]

My last HNF thought Duncan was a bastard and only forgave him after they beat the Blight, because she could see the Maker's hand in what he'd done.  None of them knew it, but he really did only have one more chance to recruit someone who could end the Blight.

*book spoiler*



In The Calling, you learn via young Duncan's Fade dream that his family was killed when he was young and he ended up on the street.  His look of anguish when he's watching the Couslands is real.

[Thor Rand Al]

I always fight Duncan up until my father says this, " Our family... always does our duty first. The darkspawn must be defeated. You must go. For your own sake, and Ferelden's."

That damn duty thing. I always look at it as the Couslands have lasted as long as they have, they are only the second highest ranking family next to the throne for a reason.

[Andorfiend]

In the other origin stories Duncan is, at worst, opportunistic and usually he's quite helpfull. Often saving someone's life or giving them a way out of a bad spot. It is only in the HN story he's a real bastard. Especially becuase as far as I can tell he has absolutely no basis whatsoever for thinking you'd make a good recruit. He's never seen you fight, has no idea what your skills are, nor what kind of person you are. He basically takes one look at you and says "I'd like to get that in the Order if you know what I mean. Hur hur hur."



I've been pretty mean to poor Alistair as a result.

Rake 21

The way I saw it, Duncan could have just left when Howe attacked. Instead, he fights alongside the Couslands for as long as he can. When it becomes clear that the battle's lost and there's nothing he can do for your dying father, he tries to save you and your mother.



She decides that she'd rather stay with your dad to buy you and Duncan some time. And yeah, Duncan does ask for permission to make you a Warden, but after reading The Calling, I don't think he'd have left you if you'd have said no.

I did say no. He invoked the right of conscription. And as far as I could tell from the dialogue he'd only been defending himself from Howe's men who didn't know him from any other armed guy walking around Highever. It's doubtful he'd have made it out alive if I hadn't shown him the secret exit. I'm thinking I'm the one who saved his life and he repays me by trying to end my family line.



Oh well. At least I'll get to put Howe's head on a pike later. ;D

[Thor Rand Al]

Andorfiend wrote...

In the other origin stories Duncan is, at worst, opportunistic and usually he's quite helpfull. Often saving someone's life or giving them a way out of a bad spot. It is only in the HN story he's a real bastard. Especially becuase as far as I can tell he has absolutely no basis whatsoever for thinking you'd make a good recruit. He's never seen you fight, has no idea what your skills are, nor what kind of person you are. He basically takes one look at you and says "I'd like to get that in the Order if you know what I mean. Hur hur hur."

I've been pretty mean to poor Alistair as a result.

Duncan does say when you ask him why not Gilmore, (I believe thats his name) that you're the 1 that he was more interested in.  Your Cousland is the reason why Duncan's there but he's not going to come right out and tell your father when you first meet Duncan that that's the reason he's there.  When you say to your father that you kind of like the idea of becoming a Grey Warden he gets all irritated so that tells Duncan right there that maybe it's not a good time to broach the real reason why he's come to the Couslands.  But yes Duncan does say that you are the real reason he's there.

[Rake21]

Andorfiend wrote...
Oh well. At least I'll get to put Howe's head on a pike later. ;D

Really, the only thing that matters.

[Cuddlezarro]

Especially becuase as far as I can tell he has absolutely no basis whatsoever for thinking you'd make a good recruit. He's never seen you fight,

the youngest Cousland has earned a reputation for being able to take people twice his own age and experiance out in combat
and the only reason Duncan was at highever any ways because of the posiblity to recruit you

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 16 mars 2010 - 04:21 .

[sylvanaerie]

Yea I have played it both ways, I fight until Bryce tells the Warden "its your duty" line then the PC goes with Duncan and I have played it she must be conscripted and dragged away too. The Human Noble origin is the one that always makes me cry.



It just seems like blackmail/strongarming to me at the moment but Duncan is exemplifying the Warden code here, stop the Blight by any means necessary. Also though your Cousland will be left with fertility issues, he/she can still have children it just becomes more difficult and I don't wanna think about what the taint might do to any children you do have.



Plus I did not know why he seems so broken up about it till I read the other post up there about his family in the Calling but I always thought his anguished expression was sincere.

[Andorfiend]

sylvanaerie wrote...

It just seems like blackmail/strongarming to me at the moment but Duncan is exemplifying the Warden code here, stop the Blight by any means necessary.

True, but on the other hand one deeply unhappy Grey Warden is probably less valuable than a non-grey warden Teyrn who can bring a few thousand men to battle who actually likes the Grey Wardens. Duncan has no way of knowing you're going to end up one of two remaining Grey Wardens and the pivotal figure in ending the blight. He's actually being pretty damn short sighted when he elects to go with one miserable Grey Warden instead of a happy Teryn and his army. He just got lucky you lived and Daveth died.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 16 mars 2010 - 05:41 .

[sylvanaerie]

Andorfiend wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

It just seems like blackmail/strongarming to me at the moment but Duncan is exemplifying the Warden code here, stop the Blight by any means necessary.

True, but on the other hand one deeply unhappy Grey Warden is probably less valuable than a non-grey warden Teyrn who can bring a few thousand men to battle who actually likes the Grey Wardens. Duncan has no way of knowing you're going to end up one of two remaining Grey Wardens and the pivotal figure in ending the blight. He's actually being pretty damn short sighted when he elects to go with one miserable Grey Warden instead of a happy Teryn and his army. He just got lucky you lived and Daveth died.

At that point your army was heading to Ostagar anyway and your PC isn't the Teryn, Fergus is.  You were left in charge of a skeleton crew of men to guard the keep and keep the peace in Highever.  Even my conscripted PC was of a mind set of "Well fine, the king is down there, if Duncan helps me get to him and I make my case Howe will swing on the end of a rope".  So by that time my PC had cooled down somewhat and was ready to just do whatever it took to get her goals accomplished.  If becoming a warden was it then so be it.

And really, considering the PC is the one who ends the Blight, Duncan is probably smiling from the Fade thinking "Well I really chose well that time."

[Andorfiend]

sylvanaerie wrote...

And really, considering the PC is the one who ends the Blight, Duncan is probably smiling from the Fade thinking "Well I really chose well that time."

Oh he did. But it was luck (or the Maker, or the Plot) and he was still kind of a jackass about it.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

This, and the whole "the Joining will probably kill you, now DO EET!!" thing, is what made my Cousland dislike being a Gray Warden. Now with Awakening coming out and having to put others trough the Joining will not make her a happy camper.

Plus, the pretty much only thing that kept her going, Leliana, is probably not even in the game.

[sylvanaerie]

lol actually my Dalish (who had a greater urgency to join) was the one who wanted to go AWOL on Duncan. I even had her running around looking for an exit (though for game play it was looking for hidden conversations and lockboxes to open) or a fence to climb over. She had only this stupid shem's word that she was sick, she felt fine. None of that suffering he says she would be feeling. Oh that cough...just a cold...nothing serious...

[Addai]

Andorfiend wrote...

In the other origin stories Duncan is, at worst, opportunistic and usually he's quite helpfull. Often saving someone's life or giving them a way out of a bad spot. It is only in the HN story he's a real bastard. Especially becuase as far as I can tell he has absolutely no basis whatsoever for thinking you'd make a good recruit. He's never seen you fight, has no idea what your skills are, nor what kind of person you are. He basically takes one look at you and says "I'd like to get that in the Order if you know what I mean. Hur hur hur."

??  Your PC has a reputation for his/her fighting prowess, as Howe comments on.  I think much like CE origin, Duncan is there for you, but because your father objects he agrees to test Ser Gilmore.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 mars 2010 - 06:44 .

[lovely jubley]

DUNCAN!!!!!

[Sabriana]

The HN origin is the most brutal in regards to acquiring a Grey Warden. Her father is bleeding out in front of her, her nephew and sister-in-law are lying dead in their room, and her lover has just received an arrow through his chest. Dead family friends and household members are everywhere, fire and rubble block them at about every corner. The gates are being pounded on, and she knows Gilmore is right there. And there is Duncan, extorting her parents, while her whole world is dying around her ears.



There is no way that the HN would not know where the secret door/tunnel is, she has to know better than Duncan. She usually declines, and wants to fight, but her father intervenes and tells her that the Couslands always do their duty for Ferelden. She does it for her father, and I don't know how he or Eleanor would react if they knew the GW business would shorten her life and leave her with fertility problems.



There is also no way to know whether Fergus is still alive, or at least will still be alive for long. As my HN points out, maybe Howe has something planned for Fergus and is acting on it already.

As for a baby, D. Gaider says that the child will not be tainted, the placenta keeps the poison at bay.