165 réponses à ce sujet

[ModerateOsprey]

Dethateer wrote...

If it does happen, don't worry, some lab geek with a crowbar and ponytail will save us.

ModerateOsprey wrote...

The main problem with
teleportation or storing the current state of a brain with memories
intact etc is Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle.

This principle
states that it is impossible to know both the position and direction of
any subatomic particle at any single point in time. If you know the
value of one, then the value of the other is infinitely
uncertain.

The problem isn't actually storing the memories, it's the fact that your ongoing mental processes have to be stopped temporairly for the transport to occur. That means that you die, and an exact copy of your mind keeps going when the thought processes resume.

It is the stopping that is the problem.  So, say, you have all the positions of all the particles recorded ready for storage, transmission etc, but..wait..you don't know what direction they were pointing! This is completely uncertain. this means you only have half the data. The direction vectors contain the data required for the state of the brain. This being the case, even if you could store and restore, or transmit, with killing the subject, the brain state would be entirely different!

[ModerateOsprey]

BTW, I also own a crowbar and have a ponytail, as for geek..yeah that too, but am too lazy to save the world

[Dethateer]

My point was that the main issue with teleporters would still exist if you found a way (which is, at the moment, impossible anyway) around the Uncertainty Principle.

[ModerateOsprey]

Yes, of course. re-reading you do say that. I was locked on the resuming part which couldn't happen because of the HUP.



Back on topic..I also think it is very possible indeed that a real life Lazerus project could be a reality right down to individual genetic markers except the brain state because of it's reliance on electricity for the mind state.

[Sigma Tauri]

ModerateOsprey wrote...
Back on topic..I also think it is very possible indeed that a real life Lazerus project could be a reality right down to individual genetic markers except the brain state because of it's reliance on electricity for the mind state.

lol, no. Brain functions are inherently biochemical. Electrical impulses being a trigger that causes a cascade of biochemical cell signaling in the neuron's body. Storing the brain's current functions don't matter so much in the quantum level as how structures over the course of the organism's development have affected things like memory and cognition. It's better to find ways to preserve the brain through freezing like during hypothermic cerebral arrests.

[Dethateer]

But you can't freeze a brain without destroying it, the tissue is too fragile to survive the ice crystals that would form during freezing.

And your continous consciousness relies on both chemical reactions and electrical impulses. The chemical reactions are the reason whatever comes out the other side of the teleporter would, for all intents and purposes, be identical to you, but you would still die, due to the temporary intrerruption of the electrical impulses that generate responses to stimuli.

Modifié par Dethateer, 18 mars 2010 - 04:39 .

[ModerateOsprey]

monkeycamoran wrote...

ModerateOsprey wrote...
Back on topic..I also think it is very possible indeed that a real life Lazerus project could be a reality right down to individual genetic markers except the brain state because of it's reliance on electricity for the mind state.

lol, no. Brain functions are inherently biochemical. Electrical impulses being a trigger that causes a cascade of biochemical cell signaling in the neuron's body. Storing the brain's current functions don't matter so much in the quantum level as how structures over the course of the organism's development have affected things like memory and cognition. It's better to find ways to preserve the brain through freezing like during hypothermic cerebral arrests.

Both true, chemicals rely on electricity to bond - no? The quantum state of a physical system is inherently electrical.

[Sigma Tauri]

Dethateer wrote...

But you can't freeze a brain without destroying it, the tissue is too fragile to survive the ice crystals that would form during freezing.

Freezing the entire brain at current methods means exactly that. Cell membranes are disrupted and proteins are denatured. However, cells have survived when thawed from -20 deg C or -70 deg C refrigerators. It requires quick action or they will die! Of course, this is a long way off from even when I'm referring to. Brains can be shielded from shock if its blood supply is cut off as metabolic functions are slow. This is common for procedures like cases in the ascending aorta. Still, you only have a small time frame you have to work with and you have to worry about post-operative changes. Current tech doesn't allow that, but brain preservation through freezing is still a viable possibility.

[Sigma Tauri]

ModerateOsprey wrote...
Both true, chemicals rely on electricity to bond - no? The quantum state of a physical system is inherently electrical.

True, but that's a general statement that's applied to all chemical phenomena.

Brain functions are emergent on the cellular scale, not the quantum scale.

[Dethateer]

I'm pretty sure what you guys are talking about now is at least a few years past my current education level, but wouldn't a disruption in the electrical bonds of chemicals affect the whole body and reduce it to its most basic chemical components instead of simply shutting the brain down?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Monkeycam, just curious, but are you by any chance a biology professor or something?

[Sigma Tauri]

Dethateer wrote...

I'm pretty sure what you guys are talking about now is at least a few years past my current education level, but wouldn't a disruption in the electrical bonds of chemicals affect the whole body and reduce it to its most basic chemical components instead of simply shutting the brain down?

Electrical bonds are disrupted all the time. That's the nature of chemical reactions; it's a reformation of electron positions throughout the molecule, generally to their lowest energy states.

[Dethateer]

I meant a general, simultaneous disruption of the bonds of the whole transported body.

[Sigma Tauri]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Monkeycam, just curious, but are you by any chance a biology professor or something?

lol, no. I'm just a guy who did small-time tissue culturing and clinical research during undergrad. I'm just expressing my enthusiasm over organ culturing, which I'm surprised no one has mentioned how unethical and idiotic Dr. Saleon is.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 18 mars 2010 - 04:57 .

[ModerateOsprey]

monkeycamoran wrote...

ModerateOsprey wrote...
Both true, chemicals rely on electricity to bond - no? The quantum state of a physical system is inherently electrical.

True, but that's a general statement that's applied to all chemical phenomena.

Brain functions are emergent on the cellular scale, not the quantum scale.

B*gg%r - you are gonna make me get a book out now But off the top of my head - cells are constructed from chemicals, which in turn are composed of atoms and it is electricity that governs physical matter on this scale and below.

My argument against the feasibility of teleporting and the creation of an exact duplication of a subject with all memories, thoughts etc intact was not possible due to the uncertainty principle. Think of the thoughts for a moment - these are in process at the moment of recording. You would have to record both the position and the velocity of all particles in the brain at all scales to achieve thought resumption. The HUP says this is impossible. Roger Penrose used this exact metaphor in his book The Emperor's New Mind in arguing about the feasibility of AI. 

[Dethateer]

Question: you guys patient enough to discuss lower-level physics with a tenth-grader?

[Sigma Tauri]

ModerateOsprey wrote...
B*gg%r - you are gonna make me get a book out now But off the top of my head - cells are constructed from chemicals, which in turn are composed of atoms and it is electricity that governs physical matter on this scale and below.

My argument against the feasibility of teleporting and the creation of an exact duplication of a subject with all memories, thoughts etc intact was not possible due to the uncertainty principle. Think of the thoughts for a moment - these are in process at the moment of recording. You would have to record both the position and the velocity of all particles in the brain at all scales to achieve thought resumption. The HUP says this is impossible. Roger Penrose used this exact metaphor in his book The Emperor's New Mind in arguing about the feasibility of AI. 

I think Iunderstand you. A subject that's been broken down and then reduplicated cannot truly be faithful to itself due to the lack of control we have on the subatomic level. Everything must be precise up at the moment we teleported a subject. But, I say that the degree of control and faithfulness can be achieved if only developmental changes in the brain's structures can be preserved. I say this because a living being's cognition, personality, and memory remains more or less constant (barring injury or disease), even when subatomic phenomena is constantly changing. That is the source of higher brain functions are found on a higher level, and preserving those structures would allow us some reduplication. Hopefully, I got it.

[ModerateOsprey]

Dethateer wrote...

Question: you guys patient enough to discuss lower-level physics with a tenth-grader?

cool by me

[Sigma Tauri]

Dethateer wrote...

Question: you guys patient enough to discuss lower-level physics with a tenth-grader?

That is if I can remember anything.

[Dethateer]

You see, camoran, that's exactly the problem. Replication. Teleporters merely copy and paste something, deleting the original. It doesn't matter if you *can* transport a mind, you'd still kill the original person.



Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Sigma Tauri]

Dethateer wrote...

You see, camoran, that's exactly the problem. Replication. Teleporters merely copy and paste something, deleting the original. It doesn't matter if you *can* transport a mind, you'd still kill the original person.

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

That's philosophical, isn't it? Are you still the same person after being teleported?

[ModerateOsprey]

monkeycamoran wrote...

ModerateOsprey wrote...
B*gg%r - you are gonna make me get a book out now But off the top of my head - cells are constructed from chemicals, which in turn are composed of atoms and it is electricity that governs physical matter on this scale and below.

My argument against the feasibility of teleporting and the creation of an exact duplication of a subject with all memories, thoughts etc intact was not possible due to the uncertainty principle. Think of the thoughts for a moment - these are in process at the moment of recording. You would have to record both the position and the velocity of all particles in the brain at all scales to achieve thought resumption. The HUP says this is impossible. Roger Penrose used this exact metaphor in his book The Emperor's New Mind in arguing about the feasibility of AI. 

I think Iunderstand you. A subject that's been broken down and then reduplicated cannot truly be faithful to itself due to the lack of control we have on the subatomic level. Everything must be precise up at the moment we teleported a subject. But, I say that the degree of control and faithfulness can be achieved if only developmental changes in the brain's structures can be preserved. I say this because a living being's cognition, personality, and memory remains more or less constant (barring injury or disease), even when subatomic phenomena is constantly changing. That is the source of higher brain functions are found on a higher level, and preserving those structures would allow us some reduplication. Hopefully, I got it.

Exactly. Penrose started with the conjecture that we may be able to achieve immortality by inhabiting AI units. That is - we simply record the current state of the subject (human, animal, whatever) and dupe this state artificially. However, the HUP completely kiboshed that conjecture. You cannot record both position and vector (direction + velocity) at a single moment in time - impossible.

However, to throw in the proverbial crowbar.. if infinity is real then it is mathematically true that all possibilities are infinitely possible 

[Dethateer]

I don't really see the philosophy in a permanent stop in your consciousness, regardless of the fact that, for all intents and purposes, the copy is in absolutely every way identical to you.

I suppose it does raise the question of what constitutes "self", though, and yes, that is philosophy.

[ModerateOsprey]

Assuming it was possible to do absolute replication, then you could have an army of selves all thinking identically as you could dupe rather than delete the original.

[Dethateer]

Eh, a megalomaniac's dream. Cloning tech FTW. It would eventually end in a hilarious "you're not the original, I am!" situation, though.

Modifié par Dethateer, 18 mars 2010 - 05:28 .