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[Shep309]

I'm starting to think I'm the only person who plays an Infiltrator and regrets taking the widow.



Yes, it's powerful, but 12 shots? Yeah, no thanks I'll stick with the viper and my surplus ammo

[Blaise Voltaire]

Lord Coake wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

sigh when are people going to learn that the Tempest serves the same purpose as an AR? Whats the point of even playing the Infiltrator if you're going to ignore the class' most powerful strength, which is sniping? May as well just switch to Soldier =/.

Tempest serves the same purpose as an AR at close range.  HAven't played an infiltrator yet, but my Sentinel got screwed several times on Haestrom (hardcore) for not having the ability ti reliably take down defenses at long range and open up targets for biotic attacks.  After picking up an AR on the Collector ship, her survivability has skyrocketed.

And yes, I use both Warp and guns to take down shields, barriers and armor.  It's just pretty hard to survive popping up from cover to do so when I'm getting hammered by six or eight targets.  AR's are reliable and efficient for that job.

Tempest serves same purpose as AR at close range, sniper range begins englobes AR range and beyond. 

As Sentinel, Tempest and Viper nice combination. Very reliable. Useful in sticky situations. Can deal with enemies at long ranges, like on Haestrom.

As Infiltrator, range not a problem. Must optimize kill speed to minimize time spent uncloaked. Widow kills faster than AR, outranges AR, allows quick strikes followed by fading into the shadows.

Much like Salarian STGs.

Assault Rifle? Less efficient. Messy. Prefer to kill faster, myself.

[GiroX-]

Shep309 wrote...

I'm starting to think I'm the only person who plays an Infiltrator and regrets taking the widow.

Yes, it's powerful, but 12 shots? Yeah, no thanks I'll stick with the viper and my surplus ammo

12 bullets, 12 kills. Thats the most efficient gun in the game. Your gonna get less kills with any AR with max ammo as well.

[Atmosfear3]

Blaise Voltaire wrote...

Tempest serves same purpose as AR at close range, sniper range begins englobes AR range and beyond. 

As Sentinel, Tempest and Viper nice combination. Very reliable. Useful in sticky situations. Can deal with enemies at long ranges, like on Haestrom.

As Infiltrator, range not a problem. Must optimize kill speed to minimize time spent uncloaked. Widow kills faster than AR, outranges AR, allows quick strikes followed by fading into the shadows.

Much like Salarian STGs.

Assault Rifle? Less efficient. Messy. Prefer to kill faster, myself.

^ Exactly

Outside of close range, an infiltrator should be utilizing their sniping capabilities.  Why even bother with the sniper rifle if you're just going to pickup the vindicator? Or perhaps you all enjoy the GPR which takes shields down even slower than the Tempest? Heck, even the viper is a better alternative considering it has an increased modifier against barriers and shields in addition to armor.

Yes, there are many ways anybody can play any of the classes.  However, theres an efficient way and a not-so-efficient way.  The most efficient way of playing is to kill everything on screen as quickly as possible. Minimum effort and time, maximum results.  Taking assault rifle is counter-intuitive to this goal.

If you simply want to play the Infiltrator with an AR because you enjoy the style and look of having one, by all means go for it!

[WillieStyle]

GiroX- wrote...

Shep309 wrote...

I'm starting to think I'm the only person who plays an Infiltrator and regrets taking the widow.

Yes, it's powerful, but 12 shots? Yeah, no thanks I'll stick with the viper and my surplus ammo

12 bullets, 12 kills. Thats the most efficient gun in the game. Your gonna get less kills with any AR with max ammo as well.

^This.
The Widow has 12 shots. The Viper has 60.  But it take 1 shot from the Widow on Insanity to kill most mobs, whereas it takes up to 4 shots with the Viper (especially if you're not pro enough to chain headshots into wiggling enemies).  The Widow is only slightly less ammo efficient than the Viper and for an Infiltrator it provides much greater dps and less time getting shot at.
Finally, the only assault Rifle with greater ammo efficiency than the Widow is the Revenant which Infiltrators can't get anyway.

[Athenau]

When talking about ammo efficiency ammo per pickup is arguably more important than damage per full reserve.

The assault rifles do come out ahead there (Vindicator min 17 ammo per pickup, Widow min 1). Still not worth pick an AR over the Widow IMO, the Tempest handles close range spraying better then any AR except the Revenant (which you can't get anyway), and the Widow can cover all other ranges.

[Lord Coake]

DaKroganKillla wrote...

BLASPHEMER! KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE![/troll]

Seriously though, why why WHY would you choose ANYTHING over the Widow? Especially the Pulse Rifle?

Theres two version of Infiltrator.  One is the sneaky sniper, going from spot to spot and patiently taking out targets with headshots.

The other is the invisible murder machine, going stealth to close in with shotguns and assault rifles, then ripping enemies to shreds with point-blank headshots.

Both are equally viable.

[Lord Coake]

Blaise Voltaire wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

sigh when are people going to learn that the Tempest serves the same purpose as an AR? Whats the point of even playing the Infiltrator if you're going to ignore the class' most powerful strength, which is sniping? May as well just switch to Soldier =/.

Tempest serves the same purpose as an AR at close range.  HAven't played an infiltrator yet, but my Sentinel got screwed several times on Haestrom (hardcore) for not having the ability ti reliably take down defenses at long range and open up targets for biotic attacks.  After picking up an AR on the Collector ship, her survivability has skyrocketed.

And yes, I use both Warp and guns to take down shields, barriers and armor.  It's just pretty hard to survive popping up from cover to do so when I'm getting hammered by six or eight targets.  AR's are reliable and efficient for that job.

Tempest serves same purpose as AR at close range, sniper range begins englobes AR range and beyond. 

As Sentinel, Tempest and Viper nice combination. Very reliable. Useful in sticky situations. Can deal with enemies at long ranges, like on Haestrom.

As Infiltrator, range not a problem. Must optimize kill speed to minimize time spent uncloaked. Widow kills faster than AR, outranges AR, allows quick strikes followed by fading into the shadows.

Much like Salarian STGs.

Assault Rifle? Less efficient. Messy. Prefer to kill faster, myself.

The AR is a good mix of the two.  It's why the weapon type was invented in the first place; almost the stopping power of a rifle, burst ability of an SMG.  It's not meant to be the best at anything, but is expresly built to be a solid and reliable contestant at both.  I'll take flexibility over reach any day. <3

[FoFoZem]

All the talk on this thread about efficiency is really narrow-minded if you ask me. The Widow is only more efficient if it suits your playstyle. Saying that no matter what, in any situation, the Widow beats the AR is borderline stupid.



@AtmosFear3 - your definition of efficiency is "Minimum effort and time, maximum results."

And then you make it blatantly clear that the only possible way to be efficient is to take Widow.

The widow wasn't designed for the Infiltrator. It was designed for any class that has sniper access and -enjoys- sniping. I highly doubt any developer intentionally made it so the class was gimped without it.



Your definition is situational. On Horizon, your 12 shots aren't going to go very far on the last battle with 3 waves.

Saying the only way to minimize effort to sit and one-shot everybody is ridiculous. You can't justify it.

I have played an Infiltrator with the Widow and I am now playing one with AR. I never looked back and said, "wow, this class is gimped without the Widow."



I find that -my- effort is reduced by having access to 4 weapons, plenty more ammo, and being able to handle all situations evenly.



Stop telling us that you are going to have a tougher time with AR training. Because that is simply your opinion and it is simply not true. I could be just as efficient as a Widow-Infiltrator if I focused on AI Hacking, Incinerate and Shotgun with absolutely no cloak.



Efficiency is not based on weapon specialization; rather it is based on a particular player's compatibility with certain playstyles. Sure I can finish a fight 10 seconds sooner with a Widow, but how is speed efficient?



If you get the job done, you get the job done. It's not a time trial. It's a matter of damage output. And a full clip of Vindicator ammo and a full clip of Viper ammo will do more damage, to multiple targets, than one shot with the Widow.



All it boils down to is whether a player is comfortable with a weapon or not. That's why all the weapons feel and act differently in intense combat situation.



All this ignorance of "If you don't take the widow you are a blasphemer" or "you don't know how to play the game if you don't take the widow" is really starting to get on my nerves. I would post videos to prove to you that you can be JUST as good as a Widow-Sniper if you take the AR, but my Infiltrators are on the Xbox.

[OniGanon]

Yes if you use the Viper to take an enemy from untouched to dead as fast as possible to get dps competitive with the Widow, you'll go through ammo at a similar rate to the Widow and likely get shot more in the process. But that's not how you should use the Viper. The Viper excels at quickly stripping the defenses off multiple enemies. Once enemies are down to health, they are no longer a serious threat. Between Squad Cryo, Incinerate, AI Hack and the squad's biotics, Neural Shock, Concussive Shot etc, an undefended enemy is lucky if they can get a shot off.

The Widow is unable to fire anything less than the equivalent of 5 Viper shots. If your enemy is already down to health, using the Widow on them is usually very much overkill. With the Viper, you can shoot an enemy twice (two headshots per scope is easy and safe, more than that is neither) and then tear them apart with powers or, contrary-wise, you can use powers to break their defenses, then shoot once or twice for the kill. You can easily kill 25 enemies with the Viper without picking up any ammo. It just takes longer.

Modifié par OniGanon, 17 mars 2010 - 04:36 .

[Blaise Voltaire]

FoFoZem wrote...

All the talk on this thread about efficiency is really narrow-minded if you ask me. The Widow is only more efficient if it suits your playstyle. Saying that no matter what, in any situation, the Widow beats the AR is borderline stupid.

....

All it boils down to is whether a player is comfortable with a weapon or not. That's why all the weapons feel and act differently in intense combat situation.

Precisely, but..don't recall hearing such sweeping statements. Widows always beats AR? Of course not, of course not. Widow simply more optimized for Infiltrators than AR's. Damage bonus, headshots, one shot kills most enemies. Results. 

If not comfortable with Widow, as you say, don't use Widow. No one saying otherwise. Simply saying Widow better suited for Infiltrators, as AR's not significant leap ahead of SMG's...Barring Vindicator, of course. 

Vindicator less efficient at ranges Infiltrator excels at (extreme range), but if you prefer Vindicator, of course, use Vindicator.

Not judging. Simply stating opinion regarding what best suits infiltrator.

Lord Coake wrote...


The AR is a good mix of the two.  It's why the weapon type was invented in the first place; almost the stopping power of a rifle, burst ability of an SMG.  It's not meant to be the best at anything, but is expresly built to be a solid and reliable contestant at both.  I'll take flexibility over reach any day. <3

Yes, yes, AR solid weapon! No arguments there. But, better suited to quick-kill style Infiltrator? Unsure.

If it suits playstyle, by all means, pursue AR. Not quicker, but perhaps more comfortable for some.

Also, when choosing flexibility over reach, be sure not to overextend self. Results can be damaging. Undesirable.

[Malysoun]

Lord Coake wrote...

DaKroganKillla wrote...

BLASPHEMER! KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE![/troll]

Seriously though, why why WHY would you choose ANYTHING over the Widow? Especially the Pulse Rifle?

Theres two version of Infiltrator.  One is the sneaky sniper, going from spot to spot and patiently taking out targets with headshots.

The other is the invisible murder machine, going stealth to close in with shotguns and assault rifles, then ripping enemies to shreds with point-blank headshots.

Both are equally viable.

Can definately attest to this, I usually play my infiltrators as close quarters combat, picked up the shotgun for eviscerator last time around. Shotgun headshots pointblank make most enemies go splat.

AR has too much overlap with the SMG for close quarters even though I took it on one of my runs, that is unless you want to pelt shields/barriers without wasting your sniper ammo since tempest loses accuracy at range.

For some reason I just can't bring myself to finish the infiltrator playthrough I had intended to pick up the widow with.

[Shep309]

That's why I prefer the viper to the widow. Sure it's 12 kills but it's 12 kills, provided you didn't miss, then you're off looking for thermal clips to get 1 more shot.

The viper on the other hand, 60 shots, I can clear protection with squad abilites and then headshots. If you cycle in and out of snipe mode you can pretty much keep that time dilation ongoing and not lose much on positioning of your intended target or whatnot.

Viper is more user friendly than the widow is for me. It allows me to tolerate occasional misses and I very rarely run out of ammo (more ammo per thermal clip) wheras when I'm using the widow, I find myself spending about as much time looking for thermal clips as I do shooting people.

It's definately a playstyle preference, I just believe the viper is a far batter choice for me, just like others think I'm nuts for passing up the widow.

Edit: spelling

Modifié par Shep309, 17 mars 2010 - 04:46 .

[FoFoZem]

Blaise Voltaire wrote...

FoFoZem wrote...

All the talk on this thread about efficiency is really narrow-minded if you ask me. The Widow is only more efficient if it suits your playstyle. Saying that no matter what, in any situation, the Widow beats the AR is borderline stupid.

....

All it boils down to is whether a player is comfortable with a weapon or not. That's why all the weapons feel and act differently in intense combat situation.

Precisely, but..don't recall hearing such sweeping statements. Widows always beats AR? Of course not, of course not. Widow simply more optimized for Infiltrators than AR's. Damage bonus, headshots, one shot kills most enemies. Results. 

If not comfortable with Widow, as you say, don't use Widow. No one saying otherwise. Simply saying Widow better suited for Infiltrators, as AR's not significant leap ahead of SMG's...Barring Vindicator, of course. 

Vindicator less efficient at ranges Infiltrator excels at (extreme range), but if you prefer Vindicator, of course, use Vindicator.

Not judging. Simply stating opinion regarding what best suits infiltrator.

Lord Coake wrote...


The AR is a good mix of the two.  It's why the weapon type was invented in the first place; almost the stopping power of a rifle, burst ability of an SMG.  It's not meant to be the best at anything, but is expresly built to be a solid and reliable contestant at both.  I'll take flexibility over reach any day. <3

Yes, yes, AR solid weapon! No arguments there. But, better suited to quick-kill style Infiltrator? Unsure.

If it suits playstyle, by all means, pursue AR. Not quicker, but perhaps more comfortable for some.

Also, when choosing flexibility over reach, be sure not to overextend self. Results can be damaging. Undesirable.

I think we're trying to argue the same point. I was mainly referring to DaKroganKilla's comment of not taking the Widow is blesphemy and should be punished by fiery death.

I was simply trying to iterate that there are reasons to take AR over Widow. But of course it all depends on how you play the Infiltrator.

If you like to do Cloak Shots, then taking the Widow should be a no-brainer.

But let's all be happy and agree to disagree

[Atmosfear3]

@FoFoZem 

I don't even know where to begin to respond to your post but I'm going to give it my best shot.

- First, I never mentioned the widow once in any of my previous posts.  You're making assumptions though perhaps it is my fault in the way I worded it.  I said sniping which may or may not utilize the widow.  We are given 2 different kinds of sniper rifles for a reason.

- You mention 12 shots on Horizon against the waves of collectors.  Are you intentionally not picking up ammo on the ground or do you just not see where they are placed? For efficiency, every ammo (which respawns indefinitely) I pick up, that is almost guaranteed a kill (though lets face it, you don't get the widow prior to Horizon unless you NG+, in which case you're not likely to one-shot something easily without the right upgrades, but thats the hole in your argument).

- I think you don't understand what efficiency means because you don't seem to understand the concept of min effort and max results. In business school everyone is taught to minimize expense and maximize profits.  The same thing applies to sniping whether in a video game or real life.  One shot, one kill; there is no greater efficiency than that.

In light of your apparent annoyance I will compromise and restate my previous statement:

Yes, there are many ways anybody can play any of the classes. However, theres an efficient way and a not-so-efficient way. If you so choose to take AR training because you enjoy the style of play, by all means, the game is about choices after all. Just know that the game can be made much easier and efficient if you decide to play on the strengths of the infiltrator class instead of being a soldier without adrenaline rush.

[Blaise Voltaire]

FoFoZem wrote...


I think we're trying to argue the same point. I was mainly referring to DaKroganKilla's comment of not taking the Widow is blesphemy and should be punished by fiery death.

I was simply trying to iterate that there are reasons to take AR over Widow. But of course it all depends on how you play the Infiltrator.

If you like to do Cloak Shots, then taking the Widow should be a no-brainer.

But let's all be happy and agree to disagree

My mistake. Argument intended to be likewise general, did not intend to counter you directly, despite quotes. Agreed, of course, different weapons suit different playstyles.

Appears that some are discussing which playstyle is superior. Perplexing, paradoxical...can't lead to consensus efficiently. Interesting dialog, entertaining to observe.

[Besetment]

Widow is one of the more efficient sniper rifles when it comes to ammo but you have to hit the headshots or you WILL run out. The other thing thats important is to not waste ammo on follow up shots when its possible to deal with the threat just as quickly with squadmate powers/combos. You should be hotkeying squadmate powers and setting them to focus fire. That way you can quickly bring say, an Eclipse Vanguard into 1 shot range by setting squadmates to target fire the merc with SMGs, open with Reave (bonus power) and hit Warp (on Miranda). That will save you 2 rounds and its faster.

[Slygar]

The Widow is OP and will make the game a lot easier. I skipped it because I wanted it to stay a challenge and the Mantis one shots most everything anyways.

[OneBadAssMother]

Viper is actually a rather superior sniper rifle for infiltrator. Pop 2 headshots, pop back in cover, pop another 2 headshots, pop back in cover. And you never run out of ammo.

However, 80 compared to like 360 damage is errr well, yeah.



I found myself switching between Viper/Widow on different missions depending on ammo drops.

[Heart Collector]

I picked up the Viper after the Widow on my Infiltrator actually, and the first thought that went through my head after a few headshots was "Where is the weapon locker DAMMIT!!"



I guess I was too used to the brutal headshot damage of my Widow... Though I can see myself with a Viper for any other class.

[Leon Zweihander]

Both the Viper and Widow have their uses. If you're consistent with headshots and team placement then it's up to your playstyle. If you prefer to use the sniper rifle most of the time pick the Viper, if you prefer one-shotting normal mobs use the Widow. Personally I pick the Widow since the hardest fights you want to kill enemies asap to prevent from getting swarmed. If someone decides to use the Viper though then I see no reason not to pick up AR training, though you'll rarely be using it thanks to the Viper's high ammo count.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

Viper is actually a rather superior sniper rifle for infiltrator. Pop 2 headshots, pop back in cover, pop another 2 headshots, pop back in cover. And you never run out of ammo.

But with the widow all you have to do is pop out once and headshot. Also, I'm rather good at sniping, but the viper doesn't agree with me, it doesn't do enough damage for a sniper rifle. Get it for your squad, but I prefer to focus on one shot=one kill.

[kinsha22]

I've tried the infiltrator on veteran and I plan a playthrough on insanity once I finish my soldier insanity game. I chose the AR over the widow and that worked for veteran. According to the wiki, the tempest actually comes pretty damn close for shield damage to the geth pulse rifle and I've found I've been able to use it at above medium range by using 5 shot bursts. On veteran just the mantis was fine, but I think insanity needs the widow if you want more satisfaction sniping. I'm planning on grabbing the widow on my next play through(hopefully the new vehicle will be out by then).

[congokurtz]

The only reason to not take the widow in my opinion is that it trivializes many of the missions. This is due to your ability to one shot any regular enemy in the game and do serious damage to elites if you shoot while cloaked. The widow is pretty wicked.