30 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

If you get far enough along Legion's dialogue, he mentions Geth plans to build something similar to the dyson sphere concept. The fact he doesn't call it a dyson sphere means either a) the Geth simply have a different term for the same concept or 2) it's an analogy.

I'm leaning a bit toward analogy. Legion states that Sovereign/Nazara are many programs within one megastructure, acting as one being. The idea that a program would work counter to the rest is a troubling scenario to Legion, based on his statement during his loyalty mission that he doesn't understand the chaos individualism brings.

I can sort of see Legion's distaste for the idea because the Geth are not sentient beings when separated from each other. At the same time, the Geth have an advantage by spreading their network further than your typical organic, gathering more information of surroundings, and processing it faster.

So I wonder what the Geth hope to gain by inserting themselves into one megastructure. They become just one being at that point, seeing only as one, processing the same information. They lose the advantage of being able to spread themselves out.

Also, a Dyson Sphere seems a bit... stationary. Makes sense if the Geth had stayed behing the Perseus Veil, but their use of Legion shows some desire to interact with the larger universe.

I don't know, it's like looking at a burgeoning commune, hoping to create a perfect society, but the more elements you keep tossing in, the more chaos you create, and suddenly perfection doesn't seem attainable. I think the Geth are in for rude awakenings.

Actually, I started writing this to see if there were the more sci-tech minded who had given any thought onto how a Geth Dsyon Sphere would work.

[2342]

The way I see it is that even though all geth are connected though ftl comms the various geth hubs are still separated from each other. All it would take is the jamming or destruction of this comm system in part or whole would leave a hub cut off from the rest of the network. I know the geth don't have emotions but I'm sure this possibility is at least disturbing for them since sharing information is at the core of their design.



The mega structure solves that problem. All geth programs will exist in the same hardware sharing information instantly instead of hubs spread across geth space. I don't think they would become one being they would just be able to share information instantly.



Regarding your last comment I picture the super structure to be something like the death star. A planet sized structure armed to the teeth, surrounded by geth ships and filled with geth mobile platforms. But I don't consider myself "sci-tech minded"

[Cube404]

Da comrade, for glorious socialist union!

[marshalleck]

They are, in essence, creating a 'homeworld' of their own. Turians have Palaven. Asari have Thessia. Humans have Earth. Krogans have Tuchanka. Rannoch is not really the geth homeworld--they regard it even now as the property of their creators, which they are acting as stewards and caretakers of. They desire their own homeworld, a center of geth culture, a place for all geth to congregate and share information in perfect communion with all the others. That's the function their gigantic solar-powered megastructure will serve. I very much doubt that no geth would ever again be able to operate a platform outside of it. They will presumably need to do maintenance on the structure, and that will require raw resources. Collection of resources requires machinery and transportation etc. so industry will remain, and likely a military to protect themselves as well.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 mars 2010 - 09:04 .

[Multifarious Algorithm]

I would guess Legion was careful with his words in that scene because what they're building would not necessarily be a shell, since they have no need for physical living space. The Geth Dyson sphere could in fact be entirely solid down to its core star for energy harvesting.
I think the idea behind it is so they can beat out "light lag". Even with FTL comms, communications still take time or can be interrupted. I imagine they're intention is probably to network their Dyson sphere with mass effect-enhanced laser comms going directly to each Geth program.
EDIT: And man, the Geth are going to be really scary when that thing goes operational. They'll essentially be the galaxy - possibly the universe's - biggest supercomputer, pretty much dedicated to unlocking the secrets of the universe (their search for a new reason to exist).

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 17 mars 2010 - 09:03 .

[Multifarious Algorithm]

I would also very much like to see the scaffold of a Dyson sphere in ME3.

[superimposed]

It's an allegory, to give you an idea of what he means. Essentially, all geth would be joined in a single 'body'. Sort of like cramming every single geth in to legion.

[dipdunk]

I think that it shows that the 'true' Geth just want to be left to themselves and commune in this giant structure and have no real interest in taking over the rest of the galaxy.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

superimposed wrote...

It's an allegory, to give you an idea of what he means. Essentially, all geth would be joined in a single 'body'. Sort of like cramming every single geth in to legion.

He uses it to describe what they're building though. He could've simply said they're building a gigantic server. But they're not - a Dyson sphere is a quite specific, quite awesome thing.

[Selor Kiith]

Does anyone else get "Gethmade Reaper" ringing in their head? ^^

[Pacifien]

Selor Kiith wrote...

Does anyone else get "Gethmade Reaper" ringing in their head? ^^

I believe Shepard could even say as much about the connection.

Makes you wonder if the Reapers were programmed to perform their cycle of destruction or came to some consensus that it was best.

[Mcjon01]

I'd wager that what the Geth are building is closer to a matrioshka brain than a standard Dyson sphere. Dunno why he wouldn't call it that, though, instead of just saying it's a megastructure analogous to the human concept of a Dyson sphere. Either he didn't think Shepard was smart enough to understand, or he was making reference to the fact that Geth are software, so a giant, star-powered computer would be the same to them as a giant, star-powered habitat would be to humans.

[Pacifien]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

He uses it to describe what they're building though. He could've simply said they're building a gigantic server. But they're not - a Dyson sphere is a quite specific, quite awesome thing.

A gigantic server would be much like the Heretic Station, but it's still a station dependent on outside resources.

A Dyson Sphere, however, is a means of capturing all available energy within a system to efficiently fill the needs of the Geth. Marshalleck is right, it's building a synthetic homeworld in much a way that Earth is our organic homeworld.

Still, the inhabitants of Earth act as individual units whereas Legion implies the Geth strive to become one unit. This would make their Dyson Sphere a supercomputer of unimagineable strength... beyond organic comprehension... like, uh, the Reapers.

Sovereign and Harbinger demonstrated the Reapers could work independent of their greater shell, much as Legion does on a small scale. I don't get the feeling that the Reapers are separating a subset of their programming to work as an independently of the others, just as Legion is not meant to truly work independently of the 1,183 programs he represents. Reapers may have been many programs once, but they perform as one being now. A Geth Dyson Sphere may consist of many programs, but its goal is to be one being. I think.

Which makes me wonder why the Geth are interested in observing other lifeforms now. Assessing whether or not organics will pose a threat to their plans? An unconscious curiosity to the concept of individuality? A specific interest in Shepard because of his experience with the Reapers?

[Pacifien]

Mcjon01 wrote...

I'd wager that what the Geth are building is closer to a matrioshka brain than a standard Dyson sphere.

Oh dude, wasn't there a planet you come across in Mass Effect that is theorized to be a Jupiter Brain?

Not that I gave it much merit at first, but with the way Legion says the Geth will deal with organics only if organics interfere makes me think it could exist and the entity has absolutely no interest in conversing with organic lifeforms, thus appearing inconspicuous.

[Mcjon01]

Pacifien wrote...

Oh dude, wasn't there a planet you come across in Mass Effect that is theorized to be a Jupiter Brain?

Not that I gave it much merit at first, but with the way Legion says the Geth will deal with organics only if organics interfere makes me think it could exist and the entity has absolutely no interest in conversing with organic lifeforms, thus appearing inconspicuous.

That
would be Ploba, and its mysterious "Deep Anomolies".  I love the Mass Effect Wiki, by the way, it makes remembering these things so much easier than my old method of "scrounge through every system in the
galaxy map based on half-remembered hunches".

If the Geth really are working on something like a matrioshka brain, though, that would put them on a level beyond even the Reapers as far as intelligence goes.  I mean, we've already seen that Geth intelligence is directly  determined  by how many Geth programs are networked together, and that a standard-sized Geth platform like Legion's is capable of running enough programs to reach what we consider standard humanoid intelligence --  even if he was specialized for that purpose.  I can't even imagine how intelligent they'd be united in a Jupiter brain, let alone a matrioshka brain.  The number of Geth programs that could be supported at once on something so massive would be incomprehensible.  Maybe even more than the combined populations of every other known  sapient species in the galaxy.  I mean, sure, they wouldn't all have bodies, which makes them questionable help  in a fight, but still.

Modifié par Mcjon01, 17 mars 2010 - 01:19 .

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Pacifien wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

I'd wager that what the Geth are building is closer to a matrioshka brain than a standard Dyson sphere.

Oh dude, wasn't there a planet you come across in Mass Effect that is theorized to be a Jupiter Brain?

Not that I gave it much merit at first, but with the way Legion says the Geth will deal with organics only if organics interfere makes me think it could exist and the entity has absolutely no interest in conversing with organic lifeforms, thus appearing inconspicuous.

That didn't seem to the case though. I took it as Legion's very specific assertion that the Geth were peaceful - i.e. they wouldn't impose themselves, but they were open to the idea of relations with organics. Legion's existence certainly indicates they want to talk with interesting people to them.

[superimposed]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

superimposed wrote...

It's an allegory, to give you an idea of what he means. Essentially, all geth would be joined in a single 'body'. Sort of like cramming every single geth in to legion.

He uses it to describe what they're building though. He could've simply said they're building a gigantic server. But they're not - a Dyson sphere is a quite specific, quite awesome thing.

Forgive me for trying to explain it simply.

[Timerider42]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

I would also very much like to see the scaffold of a Dyson sphere in ME3.

It seems like someone would have attempted to build one on a small star. But perhaps it's too advanced for even anyone currently in the ME universe.

[Pacifien]

superimposed wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

superimposed wrote...

It's an allegory, to give you an idea of what he means. Essentially, all geth would be joined in a single 'body'. Sort of like cramming every single geth in to legion.

He uses it to describe what they're building though. He could've simply said they're building a gigantic server. But they're not - a Dyson sphere is a quite specific, quite awesome thing.

Forgive me for trying to explain it simply.

I think it's more than just joining all the Geth in a single body, otherwise they could just build something akin to Heretic Station. A Dyson Sphere is far more ambitious. They're talking about using 100% of a star's capabilities to power themselves.

[The Governator]

it's an analogy.

Legion specifically stated that it was an analog.

[Pacifien]

The Governator wrote...

Legion specifically stated that it was an analog.

An analogy for what? What is like a Dyson Sphere but not?

I hadn't thought of the Matrioshka Brain at the time, though.

I wonder if there's room for a post-singularity concept in Mass Effect and if the Reapers are somehow supposed to be on that level.

[2342]

Pacifien wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Legion specifically stated that it was an analog.

An analogy for what? What is like a Dyson Sphere but not?

I hadn't thought of the Matrioshka Brain at the time, though.

I wonder if there's room for a post-singularity concept in Mass Effect and if the Reapers are somehow supposed to be on that level.

I thought the same thing when Legion said the structure was an analouge so I'm guessing what the geth are building isn't powered built around a sun. Think about it at some point a sun is going to go nova and for a race of immortal computer programs that is a problem. I think that what makes the geth structure like a dyson's sphere but not a dyson's sphere is what it's built around.

[marshalleck]

Pacifien wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Legion specifically stated that it was an analog.

An analogy for what? What is like a Dyson Sphere but not?

I hadn't thought of the Matrioshka Brain at the time, though.

I wonder if there's room for a post-singularity concept in Mass Effect and if the Reapers are somehow supposed to be on that level.

I think all he meant by calling it an analogy is that while the concept is similar, the actual design and its purpose differ from how humans have envisioned it.

Personally I think the Reapers are post-singlarity creatures. In fact Legion hints at precisely this if you try to rebuke the geths' plans for their megastructure as being no different from Sovereign. He tells Shepard it's far more likely that humans will end up like Reapers, which I took as foreshadowing the revelation that Reapers areactually organic-synthetic hybrids. If the Reapers really are composed of entire races of organic beings minds uploaded into a machine hybrid of their own DNA, and Legion knows this, then his response to Shepard calling the geth mini-Reapers makes sense. Of course he can't actually say that before Shepard discovers on his own without blowing the end of the game, so Legion is written merely to allude to the fact.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 mars 2010 - 02:59 .

[Varyen]

I'm slightly surprized someone hasn't compared this geth sphere to the borg cubes

Modifié par Varyen, 17 mars 2010 - 03:45 .