635 réponses à ce sujet

[Liso66]

allix22 wrote...

I agree with every single thing MoSa09 said !

Add to the Sammy train..  nice job Sammy! 

[Hulk Hsieh]

Liso66 wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

As long as I don't miss half of the dialogs because I don't bring the right persons to right places, I'm fine with either system.

You will , Sad but true

Well, at least there are less party members this time so I should be able to still get everything in 2 runs.

For something like Origins or ME2 it won't work like this though...

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 18 mars 2010 - 04:06 .

[Daigoji Gai]

Valentia X wrote...

I disagree. Given that the game is fairly limited, you have to hope you pick the right gift or make the correct decisions right off the bat, with little margin for error, in order to get to know your companions. I find it obnoxious and I honestly don't care for any of them anymore; I find myself wishing I had Alistair and Shale back instead of the chumps I'm landed with.

Egad, what if I say there is no right choice? Not in any way offering a critique about your play style, but just an opinion of what makes a good RPG GREAT that you seem to be missing..

There is no "right answer" - think how your character will react and make a choice and live with it. The great thing about DA is that, just like in RL you may put your foot in your mouth thinking you were saying something that will make the person happy only to ****** them off. You can't always be the perfect conversationalist no matter how hard you try.

What seperates a good rpger from a great RPGer, is learning to accept there is no "correct" decisions and learn to live with the consequences in character, remembering always the awesome thing about RPGs like this is the replay value.

Get into your chars head, and be willing to accept the -1, or even -5's when you make the wrong choice and learn to live with those consequences. I remember on playthrough 1 blowing it with Leliana (didn't know I could convert her from being a religious fanatic) through poor dialogue choices (hey, my 1st char isn't into all that Maker mumbo jumbo "crap") and settled with Morg as the rebound...

A little savvier on my second playthrough I was able to woo Leilana, and was able to enjoy an entirely new experience in my second playthrough as a corrupting blood mage. That is one of the joys that these RPGs deliver, remember remember, that replay value!

Alas, to each his own, and I am no way saying "yer doin it wrong", but with RPGs as grand as this, I just think it is helpful not to think of everything so black and white as "no margin for error" "correct answers" when it comes to role playing.

Then again I'm a crusty 31 yo former DnD pen and paper player, so perhaps I am more willing to accept when "things go awry" - IMHO, making the wrong choice and dealing with it is one of the greatest joys these games can bring.


Cheers!

Modifié par Daigoji Gai, 18 mars 2010 - 04:20 .

[Brockololly]

Well put MoSa-

I agree with most of what you posted but I'll just echo a few points. One of my biggest issues with the dialogue system in Awakening just from a gameplay perspective is the notion of clicking on objects to talk with characters. Sure you get context sensitive dialogue, but it creates a new issue in that now I'm scouring the maps with the tab key to make sure I didn't miss anything. At least with the old system if I wanted to talk with a party member, I knew to simply click on the person I intended to speak with. Thats not to say you can't have context sensitive dialogue, but IMO the character themselves should be the dialogue hub, not some random tree or statue.



And I would love it if your companions did things in camp when you were off adventuring. Its not necessarily directly related to dialogue, but livening up the camp and making it and the characters in it more dynamic and responsive to the events occurring in the game would be a nice way to have dialogue with characters that you don't necessarily use all the time.

[TheGuv]

Just as a point - most games struggle to reach the 15 hour mark. Nevermind expansions.

[Liso66]

TheGuv wrote...

Just as a point - most games struggle to reach the 15 hour mark. Nevermind expansions.

Only with shooters from what I can tell. most RPG's are considerably longer, and take longer to create with a higher expense over all.

[Bibdy]

Brockololly wrote...

now I'm scouring the maps with the tab key to make sure I didn't miss anything.

You don't do that, already?

Do you enjoy rummaging around the game world flinging your cursor about to find those silly little points where codex entries are hidden (like the top of a bookshelf, or the head of a statue), or something?

That was quite possibly the most irritating thing about the original Baldur's Gate. The amount of crap you missed because you didn't play the 'scan the entire screen!' minigame properly.

[Dansayshi]

Liso66 wrote...

TheGuv wrote...

Just as a point - most games struggle to reach the 15 hour mark. Nevermind expansions.

Only with shooters from what I can tell. most RPG's are considerably longer, and take longer to create with a higher expense over all.

Shooters make up for it by having a multiplayer. It wont be long imo before we start getting some FPS' which are multiplayer only.

[Addai]

When I hear the cost of writers mentioned, I can only sigh. It is why I boycott reality TV (well that and because it sucks). Hollywood needs to learn that *we will pay writers*! Do not just give us pretty faces and empty story lines! I did not shell out 40 bucks for game design, I paid it for the story. That is a lot more than I ever lay out for a novel, and I want my money's worth.

However, I recognize that I'm probably a minority. People do watch reality TV, they do buy from telemarketers, and they go to those empty-headed fluff movies. It's just a sad state of affairs. Those of us who care need to raise our miniscule voices over the idiocracy.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mars 2010 - 05:02 .

[Liso66]

Bibdy wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

now I'm scouring the maps with the tab key to make sure I didn't miss anything.

You don't do that, already?

Do you enjoy rummaging around the game world flinging your cursor about to find those silly little points where codex entries are hidden (like the top of a bookshelf, or the head of a statue), or something?

That was quite possibly the most irritating thing about the original Baldur's Gate. The amount of crap you missed because you didn't play the 'scan the entire screen!' minigame properly.

I know I missed a few points. Some areas just had so many little things, that it got lost in the translation somewhere. Like the Deep Roads. this conversation system was tedius. Why? because it is so natural (not) to go searching for pointless objects all to get someone to chat with you about something pointless. 

[Liso66]

Addai67 wrote...

When I hear the cost of writers mentioned, I can only sigh. It is why I boycott reality TV (well that and because it sucks). Hollywood needs to learn that *we will pay writers*! Do not just give us pretty faces and empty story lines! I did not shell out 40 bucks for game design, I paid it for the story. That is a lot more than I ever lay out for a novel, and I want my money's worth.

However, I recognize that I'm probably a minority. People do watch reality TV, they do buy from telemarketers, and they go to those empty-headed fluff movies. It's just a sad state of affairs. Those of us who care need to raise our miniscule voices over the idiocracy.

"Bows"  I agree!!!!!!!

[Bibdy]

Dansayshi wrote...

Shooters make up for it by having a multiplayer. It wont be long imo before we start getting some FPS' which are multiplayer only.

There are lots of single-player only shooters that don't offer multiplayer (or have a really crappy multiplayer that nobody played after the first week), and yet STILL only offer you, at most, 10-12 hours of gameplay in the single-player campaign.

Crysis, Dark Messiah, FEAR, Deus Ex are ones that come to the top of my head right now.

The value for money of DA:A is extraordinary. The value for money of the original DA:O is nothing short of a miracle of science and nature.

[Skilled Seeker]

David Gaider you are a rocking dev. That is all.

[Brockololly]

Bibdy wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

now I'm scouring the maps with the tab key to make sure I didn't miss anything.

You don't do that, already?

Do you enjoy rummaging around the game world flinging your cursor about to find those silly little points where codex entries are hidden (like the top of a bookshelf, or the head of a statue), or something?

That was quite possibly the most irritating thing about the original Baldur's Gate. The amount of crap you missed because you didn't play the 'scan the entire screen!' minigame properly.

True enough- I enjoy searching for things in the game and discovering loot but I don't want to now have to spend more time scouring for dialogue points. I'd argue thats just as tedious as some people saying circulating through camp to find new character dialogue is.

And on a personal note, when I do find dialogue points  like "tree" or "statue" there is nothing more annoying than mousing over it for 30 seconds trying to find the exact spot my mouse has to be positioned to click on it! Maddening!  Just one reason why I like the simplicity of clicking on a character to chat instead of an inanimate object.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 mars 2010 - 05:13 .

[MoSa09]

Brockololly wrote...

True enough- I enjoy searching for things in the game and discovering loot but I don't want to now have to spend more time scouring for dialogue points. I'd argue thats just as tedious as some people saying circulating through camp to find new character dialogue is.

that's good point, at least the characters are easy to click at than those sometimes annoying dialogue spots.

And something that comes to mind: when i click a character, i can decide to whom i want to talk. With those dialogue triggers, at least ouside the Throne room, i click and then wait and see who respond's. Besides that it takes some degree of freedom and control away, it sometimes leaves back the feeling "oh no, not that one again, can't stand him" and maybe pressing escape to skip that conversation

[Liso66]

Bibdy wrote...

Dansayshi wrote...

Shooters make up for it by having a multiplayer. It wont be long imo before we start getting some FPS' which are multiplayer only.

There are lots of single-player only shooters that don't offer multiplayer (or have a really crappy multiplayer that nobody played after the first week), and yet STILL only offer you, at most, 10-12 hours of gameplay in the single-player campaign.

Crysis, Dark Messiah, FEAR, Deus Ex are ones that come to the top of my head right now.

The value for money of DA:A is extraordinary. The value for money of the original DA:O is nothing short of a miracle of science and nature.

Even considering this thing has been in development for a godz age?
Not so extraordinary imo.  DA:O Was/Is one of my favorite PRG's to date.
I give them all of the respect in the world and have loved Bioware for a
long time now.



Now, taking a game everyone seems to have loved
to an undying end and stripping it down to a more empty feeling shell...
Makes zero sense to me. I am not so sucked in, that I will not stop the
series if the direction is no longer enjoyable due to unpleasant
changes. 

Modifié par Liso66, 18 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[Bibdy]

I can't be the only one who's developed the system of covering all ground in an area (whether going round clockwise or counter-clockwise), holding down the tab key and clicking on everything I find. Its a pretty standard mini-game to play throughout the game (or any kind of RPG for that matter), start to finish since it applies to talking to characters with non-generic names, picking up loot etc.

[Liso66]

Bibdy wrote...

I can't be the only one who's developed the system of covering all ground in an area (whether going round clockwise or counter-clockwise), holding down the tab key and clicking on everything I find. Its a pretty standard mini-game to play throughout the game (or any kind of RPG for that matter), start to finish since it applies to talking to characters with non-generic names, picking up loot etc.

You're not the only one. I do it as well. Yet still. I can not make this point enough. Finding pointless objects to click, all to trigger conversations that are mostly pointless...  There is nothing natural about that. It is also just another time sink.. A way to stretch out what little is there so it does not feel like it is missing.

C'mon really? We are rpg gamers. We are all about the details, story, companions, interaction.. and so on...

[Bibdy]

And its natural to keep playing 'check-up' on people standing in camp all night, and new questions only pop up in your head when they hit certain approval ratings?



There's nothing natural about that, either. Its just a game. You're not going to escape the whole 'point and click' aspect of it.

[Liso66]

Bibdy wrote...

And its natural to keep playing 'check-up' on people standing in camp all night, and new questions only pop up in your head when they hit certain approval ratings?

There's nothing natural about that, either. Its just a game. You're not going to escape the whole 'point and click' aspect of it.

Umm okay  YES!



Here is why.. when you make a friend, they
tell you more as they like you more and vs...  Very normal



As for
talking at camp? Well of course! When out killing things, missions etc.
It is not logical to stop in the middle of the mayhem to have a warm
fuzzy moment or a get to know what you like chat. You are killing
things! finding out your path etc. So it makes perfect sense to have
down time and chat with the others when you are not in the midst of
battle.. 

Bioware said... no romances due to the fact this is a serious mission. You have no time for all the warm fuzzies. Same principle applies. While out battling the hordes of darkspawn or whatever else is attacking you, is not the time to stop and chat.. 

[MoSa09]

Bibdy wrote...

And its natural to keep playing 'check-up' on people standing in camp all night, and new questions only pop up in your head when they hit certain approval ratings?

There's nothing natural about that, either. Its just a game. You're not going to escape the whole 'point and click' aspect of it.

Well if you ask that way.

1. Scanning an area for certain dead object's that when i stare at them or point to them, one of my companions might feel the need to tell me something.

2. Or, when resting at the fireplace after a long day, to go to my comrades and have a talk with them.

When i think of what's closer to my real life, it's the second one.

And as you point out it's a game, you know that only technically new questions pop up, whereas as you gain their trust, the people are willing to tell you more than before is the real reason why you get that new questions. It simply can't be done any other way. And that people are willing to tell you more as they trust you more is equally pretty realistic.

So yes, if compared to each other, the game mechanic of clicking on people to start conversation and questions depending on approval are more realistic than the current one if you ask me

[Bibdy]

There's always downtime between fights. Like when you talk with Anders about a basket of Lyrium you find, while you're rummaging around looting bodies.



I ask an elf about trees, he tells me about trees, and how he grew up living in the trees, then I ask him about his childhood and blahdy blah, the conversation keeps going. The question to ask an elf about his childhood doesn't suddenly spring up in my head when the little meter hits +40. It occured to me when he mentioned his childhood.



You're not going to get a 100% realistic approach from either method. Pretending like DA:O's one is more realistic is just denile.

[MoSa09]

Bibdy wrote...

There's always downtime between fights. Like when you talk with Anders about a basket of Lyrium you find, while you're rummaging around looting bodies.

I ask an elf about trees, he tells me about trees, and how he grew up living in the trees, then I ask him about his childhood and blahdy blah, the conversation keeps going. The question to ask an elf about his childhood doesn't suddenly spring up in my head when the little meter hits +40. It occured to me when he mentioned his childhood.

You're not going to get a 100% realistic approach from either method. Pretending like DA:O's one is more realistic is just denile.

no one said so, but it's more realistic than conversations based on dead things that are randomly standing around.

[Raiynsong]

Addai67 wrote...

When I hear the cost of writers mentioned, I can only sigh. It is why I boycott reality TV (well that and because it sucks). Hollywood needs to learn that *we will pay writers*! Do not just give us pretty faces and empty story lines! I did not shell out 40 bucks for game design, I paid it for the story. That is a lot more than I ever lay out for a novel, and I want my money's worth.

However, I recognize that I'm probably a minority. People do watch reality TV, they do buy from telemarketers, and they go to those empty-headed fluff movies. It's just a sad state of affairs. Those of us who care need to raise our miniscule voices over the idiocracy.

What she said !

[Liso66]

Bibdy wrote...

There's always downtime between fights. Like when you talk with Anders about a basket of Lyrium you find, while you're rummaging around looting bodies.

I ask an elf about trees, he tells me about trees, and how he grew up living in the trees, then I ask him about his childhood and blahdy blah, the conversation keeps going. The question to ask an elf about his childhood doesn't suddenly spring up in my head when the little meter hits +40. It occured to me when he mentioned his childhood.

You're not going to get a 100% realistic approach from either method. Pretending like DA:O's one is more realistic is just denile.

Meh... Neither of our view points are completely wrong. I have said previously that I'd like to see a hybrid of this system.. I am not completely opposed to it. I do feel it is severely lacking by itself. It is very one sided imo.