635 réponses à ce sujet

[Bibdy]

MoSa09 wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

And its natural to keep playing 'check-up' on people standing in camp all night, and new questions only pop up in your head when they hit certain approval ratings?

There's nothing natural about that, either. Its just a game. You're not going to escape the whole 'point and click' aspect of it.

Well if you ask that way.

1. Scanning an area for certain dead object's that when i stare at them or point to them, one of my companions might feel the need to tell me something.

2. Or, when resting at the fireplace after a long day, to go to my comrades and have a talk with them.

When i think of what's closer to my real life, it's the second one.

And as you point out it's a game, you know that only technically new questions pop up, whereas as you gain their trust, the people are willing to tell you more than before is the real reason why you get that new questions. It simply can't be done any other way. And that people are willing to tell you more as they trust you more is equally pretty realistic.

So yes, if compared to each other, the game mechanic of clicking on people to start conversation and questions depending on approval are more realistic than the current one if you ask me

Oh that's just splitting hairs. The point is the companion is mentioning something in the game world. Its not realistic for a party member to see an object and mention something about it, but its realistic to ram your character into somebody and 'click' their face? Come on now. Its not fair to say that one breaks immersion because you have to click something, and the other doesn't.

If all you're after is realism, you're barking up the wrong tree. This is still a video game at the end of the day. Not everybody enjoys laboriously-long sessions of dialogue back at camp. Spreading that dialogue and character involvement around in more easily digestable bite-size chunks was a good idea. The only people that seem to be complaining are the die-hard fans.

There are still several occassions where you return to Vigil's Keep and party members approach you to mention something, or you click on them and have a chat, learn more about them. There's obviously not going to be as much as the original DA:O, since its a smaller game in general, but I think they've put in a more reasonable balance between dialogue at camp, and dialogue in the world.

Not every situation where you have these chats is in the middle of a combat situation, either. What about wandering around Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine? Are those acceptable situations to have characters mention things?

[Bibdy]

Liso66 wrote...



Meh... Neither of our view points are completely wrong. I have said previously that I'd like to see a hybrid of this system.. I am not completely opposed to it. I do feel it is severely lacking by itself. It is very one sided imo.

Its not by itself. It seems like the people disagreeing with it are completely ignoring the chats you have back at Vigil's Keep with your party members in order to bolster their argument. The chats are there. There OBVIOUSLY aren't going to be as many, or as in-depth as ones in DA:O because its only 1/5th the content (by hour of gameplay, at least - its still got a lot of content), and none are romances, but they are there.

They could have probably dropped the in-the-world chats to double the number of at-camp chats, but I doubt that would satisfy people, either, because there's just not as much content, in general and they'd focus on that.

"I only get FOUR chats with these guys?! PREPOSTEROUS!"

Modifié par Bibdy, 18 mars 2010 - 06:21 .

[Liso66]

Bibdy wrote...


Oh that's just splitting hairs. The point is the companion is mentioning something in the game world. Its not realistic for a party member to see an object and mention something about it, but its realistic to ram your character into somebody and 'click' their face? Come on now. Its not fair to say that one breaks immersion because you have to click something, and the other doesn't.

If all you're after is realism, you're barking up the wrong tree. This is still a video game at the end of the day. Not everybody enjoys laboriously-long sessions of dialogue back at camp. Spreading that dialogue and character involvement around in more easily digestable bite-size chunks was a good idea. The only people that seem to be complaining are the die-hard fans.

There are still several occassions where you return to Vigil's Keep and party members approach you to mention something, or you click on them and have a chat, learn more about them. There's obviously not going to be as much as the original DA:O, since its a smaller game in general, but I think they've put in a more reasonable balance between dialogue at camp, and dialogue in the world.

Not every situation where you have these chats is in the middle of a combat situation, either. What about wandering around Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine? Are those acceptable situations to have characters mention things?

Why is it so wrong not wanting to be ninja hijacked to converse all the time? Seriously. I clicked on something during battle unintentionally and started a convo with a companion. I think as the player. I should also have my "want to chat time" Not be hijacked to chat.  Enter the keep and Oghren comes in my face! yes.. So okay for the npc to do it to the player? yet, not vs.

There has to be a balance..  this is not it.

[MoSa09]

As i said it's more realistic if you can ask people, like at least i do with my friends, then pointing at objects and wait for their answer to see where that conversations goes.

And yes, i am a die hard fan, ever been for many many years. That alone does not make my claims any more or less valid.

And i never said a character can't mention things, i just don't like how thw whole conversation issue is handled in general. Back at page 10, i gave a long example of how i thought both systems can be combined.

Edit: and i don't ignore that there are chats back at Vigil's Keep. I just prefer to option to ask people question or leave that question if i don't want to than click on objects and see what happens. That fact remains that it feels contrived and forced for me to click on things if i want to talk to people instead of clicking on the people. That's a course to some degree a matter of personal taste, though i think it's closer to real life, but any further discussion seems futile

Modifié par MoSa09, 18 mars 2010 - 06:32 .

[Bibdy]

Liso66 wrote...


Why is it so wrong not wanting to be ninja hijacked to converse all the time? Seriously. I clicked on something during battle unintentionally and started a convo with a companion. I think as the player. I should also have my "want to chat time" Not be hijacked to chat.  Enter the keep and Oghren comes in my face! yes.. So okay for the npc to do it to the player? yet, not vs.

There has to be a balance..  this is not it.

What? Its not like they're all over the damn place. I found one outside Vigil's with Anders, one in Blackmarsh with Nate, one under Knotwood with Anders, one in Knotwood where Nate speaks on his own when you walk over a certain point...

And then there's a few chats back at Vigil's.

That isn't balance? Its not like they're being rammed down your throat every other object you click.

[Liso66]

My final thought and post here. As I do not wish to be in arguments with others.

I like some aspects of the new system. However, alone, it just feels lonely. I can play games like Fallout 3 if I want to feel like the lonely adventurer.

Why have amazing personalities like Anders, just to feel so one sided with him?

Take the best of both systems and find the balance. Happy players, more money for Bioware, more spending for us. I do not mind spending a few extra $$ for more! I do mind spending more money for less..

Enough said..

Regards
Liso  

Modifié par Liso66, 18 mars 2010 - 06:39 .

[Warlock Angel22]

I think KOTOR did dialogue the best way. It's still my favorite rpg of all time. You really got a great story and got to get to know your party throughout the adventure. You could speak to them on the ship but some of the best stuff came while you were adventuring. You would either be prompted to speak with them or they would speak with you. What was great about it was that if you missed something on one playthrough, you could possibly get it on the next playthrough.



I don't find drilling all of your companions everytime you come back to camp that realistic but I didn't have too big of a problem with it. Realistically you don't call all of your friends everytime you get home and ask them 20 questions. Unfortunately you were forced to ask everyone in camp all of the their questions even if you didn't like them because you needed their quest and to get them loyalty skills. That's really not immersion.



I think that beyond the "old" or "new" system, the question should be how do you get to the point where you feel that you and your companions are a team and you get a backstory on them if you choose to pursue it. And at the same time, not disrupting the flow of the story. Like some have said, you could go back to camp and run through the question tree and basically tap out the npc of dialogue well before the game is over.



In KOTOR I learned stuff about Bastilla from beginning of the game to the end. So I don't think people need to get attached to a process but more to where any process will take us. So use "old" or "new" or something that cutting edge as long as at the end of the day, I feel like I went on a great journey.

[HoustonDragon]

A lot of discussion has already been covered, so I'm not going to rehash a ton here. Personally, I see good points in the new system, but was very much a fan of the old character development. I expect to be able to talk to my NPCs, because frankly, that's what a Roleplaying Game should be. I want to roleplay my character, and their choices and behaviors, based on the active world around me. This was lacking in Awakening.

The best example for this, personally, was in my own playthrough. I'm a side quest junkie; I mean, seriously, I will be the guy off running around questing for that little lost nug while the Darkspawn are destroying the town. Sue me, I'll get to your undead shenanigans in a second, Fluffy's got my back! I had -NO- problems with the depth of the writing and involvement that the various quests and plots brought to this expansion, and really felt it was a good successor for DA:O.

Except... the Three Stooges. (This used to be an old joke back playing Ultima for your 3 party members). I had characters in this game who had approval ratings that meant absolutely nothing. I had really zero desire or need to even hand out gifts. After all, as it was pointed out before, aside from a brief interjection at random points, there was no further involvement with these folks. Oh hey, Velanna, totally sucks about what happened and  how we met you, and especially why you're with us! Too bad we'll never have much chance to talk, gotta run! <_<

Ultimately, the ONLY quest I had left uncompleted in my log when I finished the game was Oghren's personal one. I'd done all the others, I'd scoured the countryside for Wade's damnable junk, I'd spent countless piles of cash and headache attending to the needs of the people of Vigil's Keep; hell, I'd even backtracked a few times to help some poor little orphans!

But I couldn't attend to the needs of one of my stalwart companions who'd faced the Archdemon by my side, simply because I wasn't allowed to talk to him to find out why. And that, honestly, left a very sour taste in my mouth. These are our friends, our comrades, the digital pixels and souls who we bleed and share loss with together beneath the electronic twilight, and with whom we do experience this great story that has been created for our enjoyment.

Please, as a wholehearted fan, I ask that you reconsider and allow it again in the sequel.

Modifié par HoustonDragon, 18 mars 2010 - 06:50 .

[Boombox]

Don't wanna quote the whole thing but I have to agree with MoSa09. I really like his ideas on pg. 10. Thats the kind of conversation system I'd like to see.

After playing Awakening a bit more I don't HATE the new system, I like the idea and it could work if it was a smaller part of the original system. I guess I just really miss the old system and I'm actually feeling really disconnected with these new characters. I think they're great, probably more interesting than some of the old ones but because of the new conversation system I really don't get a chance to get to know them like i did the old ones.

It's frustrating, I really wanna be able to ask things!

[BubbleDncr]

I prefer the Origins dialog system for the same reason most people do - it makes me feel like I know my companions. I was feeling pretty lonely when I first started Awakening, and one of the most exciting things for me was when Anders suddenly had an arrow over his head in the throne room. I was so happy to just be able to talk to him when I wanted to. My approval with him is currently higher than mine ever was with Wynne in Origins, but I felt like Wynne was my friend. Anders, not so much, cos I can't talk to him hardly ever.

I could probably get over it if the few dialogs were still initiated by clicking on the characters themselves. I've started to enjoy just clicking on my party members in every environment, just to hear their one-liners. But I'm just always worried, like a lot of people, that I'm gonna miss the object that triggers an actual conversation with someone.

[TheLion36]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents although I believe most of my feelings have already been expressed in one way or another.

First of all I don't feel much for the new conversation system. Its not bad as an addition but stand-alone it is lacking and feels very scripted and lonely. I would say a hybrid of the old and the new system would be a very good approach, this would give you some personal conversations that you can initiate with companions at camp (and perhaps some smaller maybe somewhat unimportant general dialog on the road) and you would have some conversations popping up when you touch an object or enter an area like Alistair telling you he's a "royal bastard" when entering Redcliffe.
I like the realism of having conversations with companions that start to feel like friends after a while and most of my conversations with friends I speak to daily are also the same every day... "How are you?".. "Fine"... On other days they have more to report. I'm however not against the idea of having companions also comment or start conversations when you're near / touch objects or enter areas, there's nothiing against that except when that is the only way conversations are held. A hybrid of the 2 would only increase the realism and immersion of DAO's system.

Just to clarify, I'm not asking for MORE conversations or dialogs when looking at a hybrid system, but I'm looking for a balance. The way I see a hybrid system is that some conversations now held in camp just get triggered by touching an object / entering an area whereas others just belong in camp. Morrigan for example telling you about how she as a child often spent time in the wilds in animal form is for example something she could tell you when entering a forest or touch a tree. However her telling you about Flemeth or about friendships would best be done at camp. A hybrid system would also play into the hands of those who want efficient conversations, the really important story line dialogs could be triggered by objects/areas/etc but some of the optional chatter a lot of us love to get to know their companions in-depth could be done at camp and could even be skippable to those not interested in it without losing anything.

For me most of my love for Dragon Age came from my time spent at camp talking to each of the characters, this was worth a lot more for me than all the combat in the entire game... If I want efficient quick fast paced conversations I play a hack-and-slash or a shooter with a little story.

David Gaider wrote...
Another possibility might be spacing out dialogues in-between major plot points. You don't get to ask said character twenty questions right off the bat, no, but maybe after you complete a plot you could click on them in the camp and ask them about the plot point specifically -- and it leads into something related

I really like this idea. It doesn't necessarily have to be about a certain plot point but could just become available after a certain plot point.
Another method would be to streamline the approval points system and provide less gifts, though I admit in a game where you can free-roam (in the sense of deciding in which order to do things) this could be tricky.

NOTE: Apologies for the long post, but I had 12 pages to respond to in a single post hehe! 

Modifié par TheLion36, 18 mars 2010 - 07:39 .

[Nonvita]

Whew, this subject is so difficult. David, I think your point about not filling in with background exposition is good, and there were a lot of times it became tedious to wade through those dialogues. I don't think that takes away the place for campfire conversations, though. I don't have Awakening yet, so I can't comment on it, but the new system sounds like it's headed toward what I wanted from companions when adventuring, but there are ways to improve the campfire dialogues as well to make a better balanced system.

1. Spacing out the dialogues is really important. Don't give access to all of them early on, as it feels unnatural. Having a couple dialogues available at the beginning to establish your relationship is important, though. I can't imagine picking up Sten or Zevran and not wanting to question them a little on their actions. However, holding off personal information until later in the game is important, I think. Zevran's romance was effective, in part, because much of it was tied to an encounter late in the game, so you could not complete it too early.

2. Having conversations at camp that are tied to plot events helps things feel more natural. Coming back after completing the Dalish quest to get the Dalish conversation with Zevran and Leliana's song made a huge emotional impact. It would be great if some of Alistair's dialogues had been tied to the mage tower, etc. Making them connected to the story helps give them context and depth. It also means you could cut out much of the "tell me about your past" type conversations.

3. Being able to inquire further about comments (like with Sten) is an interesting system. It means you're not just asking blanket questions, and that you've paid attention to what your companions say. It also rewards you for taking people with you.

4. I don't think it's so terrible to "make the rounds" at camp. Personally, my characters always had certain companions they were more interested in than others, so it was a pleasure to catch up with those few frequently. To make it less awkward when no dialogues are available, have them respond to, "Mind if I ask you something?" with something about being tired or not in the mood to talk. Having plot markers over their heads seems strange, and having different actions seems prohibitive, but I think just having them acknowledge that there's nothing to talk about would be enough.

5. I like the idea that companions have things to add to plot events, and having them make a comment to acknowledge they want to speak up would be a good way. I really wanted more companion interaction while adventuring in DA:O, so I like the idea of seeing more in DAO:A. However, from what it sounds like, the companions respond more to objects than to events, and I think there should be a good mix in the types of dialogues that come up.

I know that's mostly rehash of what's been said, but I do think it's possible to get a good mixed system from people's ideas. Honestly, it's the approval bar and gift system that are far more problematic than the conversation format, but that's opening a whole other can of worms...

[aluanira]

I'm one of the casual lurkers who doesn't post but I do read the forums now and then when I'm stuck on a quest. And today I saw this thread.



I'm about 20 hours into Awakening and I must admit that I really miss the Origins conversation system. I barely know my companions in this expansion pack and I find the lack of interaction to be quite lonely. I always enjoyed the camp talks and loved being able to learn more about the people I was traveling with. In Awakenings, I find the back stories really lacking. I can't ask Velanna anything about the Dalish or Nathaniel anything about his family. I loved being able to initiate conversation and now I have to wait for an arrow to appear or click on an object. To me, this conversation method just seems like a shell of the original system.



Some of the ideas for a mix of systems sound like a fair trade off. My first preference would be more rather than less dialogue though.



Loving the game though. Still having lots of fun in this expansion.

[BlastedLands]

Warlock Angel22 wrote...


Unfortunately you were forced to ask everyone in camp all of the their questions even if you didn't like them because you needed their quest and to get them loyalty skills. That's really not immersion.

only you weren't forced, you didn't NEED their quests. you can just go and talk to those you like, or those you want to know better. skills and such are not important to finish the game.
 

[Tellervo]

Don't much care for the new dialogue system.  I like that a good portion of the dialogue comes from environmental objects or encounters, but I rather dislike the way the "in camp" dialogue is done.  It seems like every time I walk into Vigil's Keep I'm yelling "GET OUT OF MY FACE VELANNA I HAVE **** TO DO".  While this happened in Origins, where you'd walk into camp and someone might immediately pounce on you, it felt like it happened less.  I understand that the companions are supposed to be people with their own needs and emotions and timetables for discussing these things, but it really is every time I walk in.  The item or location triggered dialogue outside gets their "realness" across just fine without them being in my face every time I walk in.

It also feels stiff, though.  I can't walk up to a companion and talk to them, outside of a few exceptions, some of which I know I've missed because I automatically assumed it wasn't possible after the first few tries.  That doesn't seem very natural.  Now, I enjoyed the camp dialogue from Origins.  I understand the "go make yourself a sandwich" mentality of it being potentially boring and a distraction from the larger narrative, but I liked that.  It made the Warden feel like more of a person, to me, to have these sporadic bouts of downtime.  It also made those periods in between, where you were active, seem a little more desperate.

Perhaps there is a happy middle ground?  Splitting stuff up between "camp" and triggered dialogues?  It also seems a lot easier to miss triggered dialogues.  I don't want to run all the way across Amaranthine to pick up more dialogue for my last companion--that's the thing that gets me, a lot more than "pow wow" time, is running all over the place for nonsense and silly fetch quests (that person who sent me looking for Ines is getting a punch in the face next time I see her).  Running with 'tab' down gives me cramps, y'know?

[Tellervo]

aluanira wrote...
I'm about 20 hours into Awakening and I must admit that I really miss the Origins conversation system. I barely know my companions in this expansion pack and I find the lack of interaction to be quite lonely.

Also, this.  From an RP perspective, if I were to truly get into my Warden's head right now, he's utterly alone, carting around a bunch of needy strangers and a backsliding friend in an Arling where everyone hates him the second he stops sweet talking them.  This was cool up to a point, because it was so very real, but now its making the game depressing.

[silksieve]

Ok, just a quick thought on the new delivery system itself. I don't think we're getting less conversation, but there is something lacking about the spontaneity of the process. There's definitely a sense of "Oh, it's conversation time" about the whole thing, rather than my choosing when to talk. On the other hand, I know my personal playing style is on the slow and patient side, so I never had a problem with rushing through dialogue in DAO, and the new system actually makes things feel a little rushed to me. Sometimes the answer choices pop up, and I'm like "I'm not ready to pick any of those!" because I felt like I haven't had enough "in character" time yet to lean one way or another.



The other thing is, when I click on one of the conversation objects, I have no idea which companion is going to talk, which contributes to the aforementioned rushed feeling.

[shedevil3001]

i cant say i like the new conversation system either it lacks an emotional connection with our companions which is a shame as nathaniel howe had alot of potential if you played as a hn as were some of the other new companions at least in dao you could get close to your companions and get to know them which helped you to understand when it came to making choices as to how it would effect the people you travel with as well as how other were affected, this made it feel like you really cared about the choices you made and your companions opinions it made it personal to the player

[Minaleth]

I like the conversation system that was added into Awakening. New ideas have to be explored, otherwise the games will never improve (some wrong steps are to be expected, but this is not one of them imo. The radial menu in NWN was e.g. but that's different story.)



I like also Origins camp conversations. For some dialogues it's quite appropriate. But not for all. In my opinion it was well handled and I wouldn't mine if certain portion of dialogues was of this kind.



And I liked timed conversations in BGII as well



I would prefer a game that includes all of them (quest and cut scene interventions are out of discussion I hope). With maximum respect for the story and particular situation. Both Awakening and Origins do that in a way ... but in both cases there is space for improvement

GL with other expansions and eventually DA2.

[Kupacmac]

People don't talk to one another enough. Why can't it be more like the first? I won't play anymore BECAUSE of the no romance and inner intrigue. Conversations are great but you lost a whole area of why so many are playing the game.

[ransompendragon]

Haerja wrote...

Warlock Angel22 wrote...


Unfortunately you were forced to ask everyone in camp all of the their questions even if you didn't like them because you needed their quest and to get them loyalty skills. That's really not immersion.

only you weren't forced, you didn't NEED their quests. you can just go and talk to those you like, or those you want to know better. skills and such are not important to finish the game.
 

exactly! My first playthrough I didn't bother with those I wasn't interested in. My second I am roleplaying a character who is interested in different characters than my first one. I never notice game mechanics (dialogue, combat, whatever - I am too busy enjoying the game to figure out the mechanics). I certainly don't feel the need to get everyone to 100 approval so I can get their extra boosts.

and thank you to those of you who posted the long and thoughtful comments.

[Dsentinel]

If someone didn't mention this yet, the dialogue reminds me a bit more of the older Bioware games. People would comment on something as you traveled and you could find out more about it if you then talked to them. Although I did enjoy some of the dialogue from DA:O, I like what they did in DA:A. Some tweaking needed indeed, but I like where it's headed.

I do have to add I missed the love interest, as well as some of the more unique characters we had in DA:O.

Modifié par Dsentinel, 19 mars 2010 - 04:38 .

[Malsumis]

David Gaider wrote...

Hmm. I will say that "I like the old conversation system, having long talks with the character let me get an insight into their personality and made me feel really close to them, etc etc." is very understandable. Who doesn't like having long talks with characters you like? It is, however, a lot of writing that is inefficient and, yes, expensive. No, you as fans don't have to worry about how expensive it is. I, however, do, and I do have to think about the sort of behavior a conversation system encourages in players -- even if some players (especially the really hardcore ones) enjoyed the end results despite its flaws (and every system has some).

While I do believe in quality over quantity, trying to reduce the amount of writing you do for NPCs is playing with fire. Bioware is known for it's excellent characters, part of that is that they don't only have two lines of dialogue. I know your not saying that, it's just that a lot of companies in the search for more profits(nothing wrong with it), forget what it is that got them making money in the first place.

I enjoyed the way you did the dialogue in Awakenings and would like to see how it's done in a game with a larger budget (DA2). But I feel it perhaps also needs BG2 NPC dialogue style( where they initiate conversations with the PC), perhaps a designated safe area flag similarly to the way you do banter. While giving those less interested in character interactions the opportunity to disengage it quickly( a 'not now' response). I feel combining those two ways of interaction is better then how it's done in DA. I also think it could work well for romances, think (for cheesyness) coming across a vista or sunset or even a table at an inn to advance the subplot, instead of a camp chat.

I personally think most of the naysaying of the new way of dialogue has to do with the amount of content that was in Awakening. Obviously there would be a lot more in a full game and I think that's the only way your going to be able to make a judgement between the two systems.

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

Default137 wrote...

abadomen wrote...

Why couldn't you ignore people in the camp? I rarely talked to the characters I disliked...only talked to those I liked.

It was a choice..added to the roleplaying aspect...I haven't played Awakening yet...but that sounds like something I may dislike.

From what I'm hearing sounds more like Mass Effect 2...

Well, the way its set up now is like this.

Basically, before you had to go to them in the camp, and go through the correct dialogue options to learn about "x", then you had to tell them how you feel about "x" and then after that, they get a boost, the problem is, after awhile you just gather so much "x" you have to talk to, and often its stuff that has NO connection to the game whatsoever, and is only mildly touching on things.

In Awakening, when you walk around with lets say Anders, he'll notice things, and suddenly say something about them, and you can turn to him and ask him how he feels about these things, its basically the same principle, but it actually makes the world feel more, well, real, hearing about it from another person while at a place like that, and seeing how they view such things, you still get the conversations, they are just split up a bit more, and allow a deeper understanding really.

A minor first example, I left my keep with Anders, and he noticed the statue to Andraste in my courtyard, and said a little bit about how he feels about Andraste, and the Chantry, and I was able to talk to him about it, and learn much more about the Chantry then I ever did from Morrigan and Wynne, however at the same time it was really fun, it didn't feel like he was reading it out of a book, I could feel how he felt about the Chantry, and it was just so much more interesting to see things from that angle.

Well, this new way of doing things can be kinda cool (responding to the world as you travel, etc), but I seriously dislike this system taking the place of the old system. I think it'd work better as a mix between the two. have some world encounter conversations while still being able to talk to the companions at camp / the Keep etc.