635 réponses à ce sujet

[shedevil3001]

i think that its a bit difficult to connect with the companions without being able to approach them and talk to them, but maybe with the new system and the old 1 combined it may work as long as theres more in depth character building friendships and romancible conversations, also it would be nice if our pc could have explained about how they became a grey warden, what happened to make them leave their home etc: with companions that you get closer to as well as finding out about their background what their lives were like before our pc met them, as i feel when you have a connection with the companions it makes you care about them and what their opinions about the choices we make are, how they feel about the more serious plot decions we make, it gives us a real connection to the whole story and the people as well as the world, but thats just how i think it should feel in an rpg you need to feel like you are your character not that your just playing as them, it makes you stop to really think before you make any choices and care how it affects everyone around you

[JamieCOTC]

While I do like the new dialogue system, I'd hate to play a full game with it.  The new system is a tad too constraining and frankly, points are just too easy to miss.  I know that some things about it could be fixed, but I feel the dialogue forces the story a bit too much. A mixture of the old and new systems would be much more fun to play as they would complement each other greatly. Still, I could see sticking w/ the new system for expansions and DLC, but like I said before, not a full game. Just my 2 coppers.

[Liso66]

I had a thought, and felt the need to share.

Why take a new system, from a new game, all to add a new system to a new game? DA:O just came out the end of last year. Bioware pushed out an expansion just 4.5 months from the main release.

So my question is, Why are you forcing a new conversation system that takes a 180 flip from one that is STILL new? Why not create this new system for a game no one has played yet? Seems that eliminates the sock to the system to all the players that already expect their series to be consistent. Want to tweak it out? Fix all your bugs? crashes, broken quest, and dialogs?  Now there is a good start. <_<

 Want the conversation system better? Fix what is broken first! Seriously though? From what I can tell, this is not a shiny new system, this is a fragment of the existing system, refined and simplified.

Also, you want to reduce cost? Get rid of pointless chatter. A good example is Alistair offering up directions in DA:O in Lothering. "Here, I'll mark these on our maps" Done! Instead, the witers chose Alistair to babble on for 5 minutes on the particulars of where to go. There are several moments like this.

I can find my own triggers, Fine, I'll put out the extra work. Taking the interaction out and leaving things so one sided is completely empty. I'll do the work and find my triggers, and you give back the "get to know you" time?  Hey! sounded like a good deal to me!  "smiles"

Modifié par Liso66, 20 mars 2010 - 01:23 .

[noretus]

Prolly has been said before but I see a problem with the new system: Now I gotta scour through every damn map again with every party member to see if they got something to say.



The idea isn't all that bad. What I missed in Origins was the ability to ask the opinion or comments and such of the current situation and location ( only Leiliana had this option afaik and unfortunately I can't stand her ). Especially the opinion I really really woulda liked to consult my groupies in some situations, like when choosing king for Orzammar ( only Zevran seems to be nosey enough to voice his without prompting ). It's nice that the party members interact with the world now. However, I just liked being able to 'check up' and chat with them in the camp. And why not? It's always evening in the camp, we're settling down and like Morrigan says 'we're in camp, so it is a good time as any'. Certainly better then having a deep personal conversation while we're on the way to do something that needs immidiate attenttion.



But yeah, I do wish that in future they'll implement a bit of both. Maybe less convo in the 'camp' ( or whatever the chill out location is ) but not completely ommitted, and then also some conversation triggers around the world, preferrably in easy to reach places ( or places where you'll visit several times regardless, like cities, instead of some lone treestump in the middle of nowhere ).

[Harcken]

David Gaider wrote...

Another possibility might be spacing out dialogues in-between major plot points. You don't get to ask said character twenty questions right off the bat, no, but maybe after you complete a plot you could click on them in the camp and ask them about the plot point specifically -- and it leads into something related, perhaps at your option.
Romances, of course, are another ball of wax completely. But, yes, I knew that.

This, in my opinion, coupled with the interactive dialogue, makes for the best system. While I do enjoy asking my party members questions, when all of their options were available right at the start, I would simply sit in the camp for 2-3 hours going through said "laundry list," until I heard all that was to hear. While I enjoyed this, I lamented the fact that after this 2 hour period, I never again had an interesting conversation with a character for the entirety of the game, and dialog would have been much better paced if some opened up after each major plot point.

I also think one thing origins lacked was commentary on your decisions. Going back to party members' dialog opening up after major plot points, I think they should have a lot more to say, about, for example, what happened at the mage tower or concerning the Sacred Ashes. I was dissappointed that after every major quest, my comrades had no opinion whatsoever (perhaps maybe one would have a brief piece of dialog here and there). This also gives us more insight into the character's personality, their "moral compass," and their perspective on the world, rather than: "What is Orlais?" "Where do the dwarves live?" "What's a dragon?" I think those questions are much better suited for world (nonparty) NPCs like Duncan (or even a journal, but don't overdo the journal, while I enjoy reading the occasional diary or info log, I absolutely loathe it when some games relay their entire story and emotion into many many "datalogs".

[Liso66]

Harcken wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Another possibility might be spacing out dialogues in-between major plot points. You don't get to ask said character twenty questions right off the bat, no, but maybe after you complete a plot you could click on them in the camp and ask them about the plot point specifically -- and it leads into something related, perhaps at your option.
Romances, of course, are another ball of wax completely. But, yes, I knew that.

This, in my opinion, coupled with the interactive dialogue, makes for the best system. While I do enjoy asking my party members questions, when all of their options were available right at the start, I would simply sit in the camp for 2-3 hours going through said "laundry list," until I heard all that was to hear. While I enjoyed this, I lamented the fact that after this 2 hour period, I never again had an interesting conversation with a character for the entirety of the game, and dialog would have been much better paced if some opened up after each major plot point.

I also think one thing origins lacked was commentary on your decisions. Going back to party members' dialog opening up after major plot points, I think they should have a lot more to say, about, for example, what happened at the mage tower or concerning the Sacred Ashes. I was dissappointed that after every major quest, my comrades had no opinion whatsoever (perhaps maybe one would have a brief piece of dialog here and there). This also gives us more insight into the character's personality, their "moral compass," and their perspective on the world, rather than: "What is Orlais?" "Where do the dwarves live?" "What's a dragon?" I think those questions are much better suited for world (nonparty) NPCs like Duncan (or even a journal, but don't overdo the journal, while I enjoy reading the occasional diary or info log, I absolutely loathe it when some games relay their entire story and emotion into many many "datalogs".

"Nods impressed"  I like these ideas a lot! 

[Snugglepus]

David Gaider wrote...

Default137 wrote...
Well, the way its set up now is like this.

Basically, before you had to go to them in the camp, and go through the correct dialogue options to learn about "x", then you had to tell them how you feel about "x" and then after that, they get a boost, the problem is, after awhile you just gather so much "x" you have to talk to, and often its stuff that has NO connection to the game whatsoever, and is only mildly touching on things.

In Awakening, when you walk around with lets say Anders, he'll notice things, and suddenly say something about them, and you can turn to him and ask him how he feels about these things, its basically the same principle, but it actually makes the world feel more, well, real, hearing about it from another person while at a place like that, and seeing how they view such things, you still get the conversations, they are just split up a bit more, and allow a deeper understanding really.

A minor first example, I left my keep with Anders, and he noticed the statue to Andraste in my courtyard, and said a little bit about how he feels about Andraste, and the Chantry, and I was able to talk to him about it, and learn much more about the Chantry then I ever did from Morrigan and Wynne, however at the same time it was really fun, it didn't feel like he was reading it out of a book, I could feel how he felt about the Chantry, and it was just so much more interesting to see things from that angle.

Excellent example!

The drawback might be viewed as you being unable to go around in camp and chat with every party member, regardless of whether you spend any time adventuring with them. I don't know that this is necessarily a drawback, however, as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. That and I think a system that doesn't make the player feel like they have to keep "checking in" with a character regularly to see if they have anything new to say is more natural -- saving their interactions for those times when what they have to say is more significant.

There's going to be some people who are going to miss the "laundry list" of questions, because as far as they're concerned any conversation they can have with a character they like is gravy -- it is, let's face it, MOAR! -- but I've always felt that such dialogues are often exposition-filled by necessity, and personally I think a system where a player feels compelled to sit in camp and drain a character of all their dialogue options (in a lengthy process) just to have a "complete" picture of a character isn't ideal.

The approval system itself needs some looking at, but insofar as the dialogues in Awakening go, consider it a work in progress.

It sux, it fails miserably in my eyes. Go back to the original version of dialogs. I loved running around my camp constantly checking on every character to see if the have anything to say. Thats what makes an RPG for me, characters and dialogs.
In other words: Bad show Bioware!

[MoSa09]

There is one thing that the new dialogue system did not achieved: if i understood D.Gaider right, their intention was to spare people running around in camp talking to every companion checking if they have anything new to say. While i am a rpg geek and didn't mind that at all, i enjoyed it, i know people are different than me and appreciate that to fix this.
But for me, it ended even more annoying. Instead of talking to people at camp and maybe realize they have nothing new to say this time, i took the everyone of my party through previously cleared areas & dungeons just to see if there is one dialogue trigger i might use for this or that one cause he was not around when i first went through here. In the end, that took me longer and was more unnerving than click on someone in camp, see i can ask him nothing new and end conversation. Instead of speeding things up, it slowed me down. And running through whole areas with tab pressed is no fun at all.
So while i appreciate the idea of adjusting the system to make it better, i must say this current one not really did it for me. And if i just try to imagine that Origins had more areas and more companions, i would have spent hours taking along party nr. 2 and party nr. 3. *shudder*
There has been made some nice suggestions here by other people how both systems can be combined, but at the moment i must say, by just measuring it against efficiency and time, the old system was better cause it doesn't slow you down that much.

I also have to add i did never connected to the new companions in a deeper way, and i think that has something to do with the convo system. Clicking on a tree to see Velanna responds by telling me what that tree is and coming back to something we hadf discussed more than two hours ago and i would have liked to finish then crushed any kind of connection. It's like watching an emotional engaging movie, but just half an hour per week. You will never get touched by it the same way as if you watch it completely without interruptions. But i agree that kind of companion attachment  is hard to measure as i spent 80 hours with them in Origins, while Awakening took me about 16 hours.

[ThePasserby]

David Gaider wrote...

There is a distinction to be made in the experience of the dialogue in Awakening in part because it's a slightly different system for delivery and in part because the volume of dialogue is much less due to it being an expansion. Those are not related, and I recognize that sometimes people are going to mush them together. There's also a distinction between the dialogue that actually offers insight into a character (which I'm not looking to lose) and the laundry list of questions which is mostly exposition (you haven't noticed, for instance, that those questions are almost always "Tell me about X -- this feature of the world  -- that will start a dialogue which offers no real personality on your part and is mostly just information") which never offered the kind of insight that people keep claiming it does.

I know you stated you won't be coming back to this thread, but I still have no idea how these questions and the companions' answers offer no insight to their personality.

To the hack and slashers, Leliana droning on about Orlais and the nobles of that country might be boring to "get through" in order to "max out" their approval.

To me, she offers an important bit of info about Orlais and its politics to the player while at the same time, revealing much of her own personality. Through these dialogues, we know that she loves the fine things in life and has a keen intellect to grasp the ins and outs of the court intrigues and can move among them and manipulate them.

When Alistair talks about the Grey Wardens, we get an insight into both the organization as well as the person giving the account. From what he says, we know that while the Grey Wardens often come across as serious and look like they carry the load of the world on their shoulders, they do find joy whenever they can (the story about the Warden who just couldn't get drunk), and through relating that account, we know that Alistair misses his comrades, he loves the camaradarie he shared with them and helps us understand why he is still grieving so much.

I think the characters' lines are well-written enough to allow the empathetic player to see their personality while they do their "expositions". To those who see these dialogues as weeds to be cleaned out, leaving behind only those that advance the plot, well, it's their loss. But for the developers to then cater to these players, then it's a shame.

Edited for spelling

Modifié par ThePasserby, 20 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[nicodeemus327]

ITT: Most of the world has already been setup. The characters don't need to explain a lot of things and that's why there is less conversation. It's kinda nice not being hit over the head with a huge script just to understand what the character is talking about.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 20 mars 2010 - 03:13 .

[YohkoOhno]

To me, she offers an important bit of info about Orlais and its politics to the player while at the same time, revealing much of her own personality. Through these dialogues, we know that she loves the fine things in life and has a keen intellect to grasp the ins and outs of the court intrigues and can move among them and manipulate them.

And why do these scenes need to be part of a camp initiated dialog?



You could do the same with a little variety. Maybe this stuff could be revealed in cut scenes, or random encounters, or when they go to a new location there is a chance to intiate a lot of conversation--Imagine, for instance, if when you sat down at the Dalish Camp a companion with you told their own story as part of the sharing of stories.



I could see all of the companions motivations come out in a system like that used for Awakenings. Like DG said, I believe people are too hung up and seeing flaws because this adventure is shorter than the main campaign.



In short, the whole dialog system and exposition can all be handled differently. There;s always room for improvement and it will be interesting to see how things progress in the next adventure.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I think BW is thinking more in terms of their wallet than their fanbase. I think what they want is a budget allowing for better graphics and gameplay, but without the huge dialogue costs. I don't think a game running on such a bad engine like Dragon Age would've survived without some of the key dialogue options and character depth. In terms of gameplay, Oblivion and many other RPGs just blow Dragon Age out of the water. If the Dragon Age series wants to continue in the path of Awakening, I don't mind not giving that series my money. I already threw out a game series that I've played since I was a kid (GTA series) due to GTA IV, which I thought was a step in the wrong direction. Anyways, I hope that Dragon Age will only improve the dialogue/camp system, and not take the wrong step. I thought Awakening was a bad step, and I will not purchase a game that continues on that path.

[ThePasserby]

YohkoOhno wrote...

To me, she offers an important bit of info about Orlais and its politics to the player while at the same time, revealing much of her own personality. Through these dialogues, we know that she loves the fine things in life and has a keen intellect to grasp the ins and outs of the court intrigues and can move among them and manipulate them.

And why do these scenes need to be part of a camp initiated dialog?

You could do the same with a little variety. Maybe this stuff could be revealed in cut scenes, or random encounters, or when they go to a new location there is a chance to intiate a lot of conversation--Imagine, for instance, if when you sat down at the Dalish Camp a companion with you told their own story as part of the sharing of stories.

I could see all of the companions motivations come out in a system like that used for Awakenings. Like DG said, I believe people are too hung up and seeing flaws because this adventure is shorter than the main campaign.

In short, the whole dialog system and exposition can all be handled differently. There;s always room for improvement and it will be interesting to see how things progress in the next adventure.

They need not be part of a camp-initiated dialogue. However, Daivd Gaider is currently inclined to remove them altogether.

[Gr8rgamer]

David Gaider wrote...

kimmarberry wrote...
I've read all your responces here David and it looks to me like you always say" thanks for the advice i understand you like the way the old converations went but i think its broken and this one is better so you guys can give me suggestions but im not going to listen to them even tho you are paying customers." I don't see why you are so against a combantion of the two conversation styles? it would be great to have it both ways is it because you are too lazy to come up with a way that would make ppl happier? well I now know if this is the way you "listen" to your customers then I will NOT be buying any more of bioware products.

PS some of your posts have a condisending tone. perhaps you should take a remedial class on customer service.

Sigh.

I am not here to provide customer service. I am not a customer service provider. I am a developer, and one who thought that some discourse could be had with the fans over this particular element in the game, which is something I specialize in. There is use to be had in that, although yes -- I am not going to listen to every opinion someone offers because they come from a very particular perspective that isn't entirely useful to me as a developer. This is nothing to take personally -- I don't expect you to care about what I need to deal with as a developer, or to make the sorts of distinctions that I do as a designer, I'm looking for your experience as a player. Nothing more.

But it's precisely the above kind of attitude that makes it aggravating to do so. If we didn't do what you wanted it's because we're "too lazy". If we aren't jumping up and nodding our heads saying "yes, we'll do that immediately!" we're being condescending and offering (sic) bad service.

There is a distinction to be made in the experience of the dialogue in Awakening in part because it's a slightly different system for delivery and in part because the volume of dialogue is much less due to it being an expansion. Those are not related, and I recognize that sometimes people are going to mush them together. There's also a distinction between the dialogue that actually offers insight into a character (which I'm not looking to lose) and the laundry list of questions which is mostly exposition (you haven't noticed, for instance, that those questions are almost always "Tell me about X -- this feature of the world  -- that will start a dialogue which offers no real personality on your part and is mostly just information") which never offered the kind of insight that people keep claiming it does.

That's no problem, as it's my job to try and parse any comments that get made. But I do so voluntarily. I can just as easily figure it out for myself without coming anywhere near this forum at all.

So -- thanks to those who did offer some feedback. It was useful, and I will consider it even if some people seem to think I'm only placating you by coming here (as unrequired as that is, except in the minds of the entitled I suppose). But I'm going to bow out of the thread now. Feel free to keep conversing on the topic as much as you like, of  course.

WOW poor wittow baby got its feelings huart, awwwww...... definitely a Customer Service for DUMMY's is in order! In other words David was interested as long as people were kissing his butt! I wont even bother researching further content for this Junk, its obvious they have there view of the world and don't care to hear what made the game special for some of the gamers!!!!! Sorry for hack n slash WOW is my game and I get infinite interaction granted alot of trolls oh well, but DAO had something different. DAO-A has nothing and does what it does less well than competitors!

Modifié par Gr8rgamer, 20 mars 2010 - 03:58 .

[cachx]

When you start to tell the writer himself "look, this is what you're really meant, and this is why you did it" you know something went wrong. No wonder Gaider just went to headbutt a wall in frustration, I mean... left the thread...

Liso66 wrote...
Why take a new system, from a new game, all to
add a new system to a new game? DA:O just came out the end of last
year. Bioware pushed out an expansion just 4.5 months from the main
release.

This system is very similar, if not identical, to the one in Knights of the Old Republic, and that was like 7-8 years ago. I'm not really familiar with Planescape Torment or Baldur's Gate or other older games to say if it was the same or not.

MoSa09 wrote...
i took the everyone of my party through
previously cleared areas & dungeons just to see if there is one
dialogue trigger i might use for this or that one cause he was not
around when i first went through here. In the end, that took me longer
and was more unnerving

You don't HAVE to do it tho. I think the point is that you get all these dialogue with your chosen party members at the time as you go along. Going back just to purposly trigger convos kinda defeats the purpose of the whole thing. I do agree that some of them are really easy to miss and that is annoying (on PC I practically play with the Tab button pressed all the time so I don't miss anything).

[Ryzaki]

Uh...as someone who just played KOTOR yesterday. No the dialogue system in Awakening is not the same as KOTOR. What are you talking about? Kotor dialogue is like DA's except you have a lot less options and more dialogue opens as the plot progresses. You still talk to the character and not some random object to interact with them. *With the exception of plot items then they'll talk to you*. So like lolwut?

I actually would like something like KOTOR's system. The characters would talk to you most of the time but certain conditions had to be met to move on to other conversations. (Most of which were plot related).


And yeah approval rating shouldn't be tied to combat ability. That was annoying especially considering I kept pissing Morrigan off on all my playthroughs.

Edit: Frankly while I prefer the Origins system I don't care either way. Both systems have their faults. A hybrid would be the best idea.

...Then again considering I only watched someone play Awakening (even if that person is a bit of a dialogue monster) take that with a grain of salt.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mars 2010 - 03:46 .

[nicodeemus327]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Imagine, for instance, if when you sat down at the Dalish Camp a companion with you told their own story as part of the sharing of stories. .

This is the kind of idea that would make the converstaions feel more natural instead of hamhanded. I think they are on the right track in DAO:A. Only problem I have is that some converstion points could be missed I guess.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 20 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[ThePasserby]

cachx wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...
i took the everyone of my party through
previously cleared areas & dungeons just to see if there is one
dialogue trigger i might use for this or that one cause he was not
around when i first went through here. In the end, that took me longer
and was more unnerving

You don't HAVE to do it tho. I think the point is that you get all these dialogue with your chosen party members at the time as you go along. Going back just to purposly trigger convos kinda defeats the purpose of the whole thing. I do agree that some of them are really easy to miss and that is annoying (on PC I practically play with the Tab button pressed all the time so I don't miss anything).

You need to understand MoSa09's post in its context. It is in reply to David Gaider's point that it is not fun for some players to keep clicking on every companion at camp to search for new conversation options, even though, as you've noticed, you don't HAVE to. MoSa09's point is that the new system also encourages players to bring everyone through every dungeon cleared to find new conversations, again, even though you don't HAVE to.

[cachx]

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh...as someone who just played KOTOR yesterday. No the dialogue system in Awakening

I meant kotor = Origins, not kotor = Awakenings. Ergo I think it's good they're experimenting with Awakenings because after 8 years it can get stale.

ThePasserby wrote...
You need to understand MoSa09's post in
its context. It is in reply to David Gaider's point that it is not fun
for some players to keep clicking on every companion at camp to search
for new conversation options, even though, as you've noticed, you don't
HAVE to. MoSa09's point is that the new system also encourages players
to bring everyone through every dungeon cleared to find new
conversations, again, even though you don't HAVE to.

But the thing is that Origins does force you to go through everything to keep the character's story moving forward. Where as in Awakening it's not vital to go back and trigger (most of the points are either on vigil's or amaranthine wich you'll be visiting numerous times anyway).

As an idea, maybe the optional dialogue should be clearly labeled as
such? (like Leliana's tales for example). That way people that just want
to skip the exposition can choose to do so.

[Ryzaki]

cachx wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh...as someone who just played KOTOR yesterday. No the dialogue system in Awakening

I meant kotor = Origins, not kotor = Awakenings. Ergo I think it's good they're experimenting with Awakenings because after 8 years it can get stale.

Oh okay. I get what you're saying now. Experimentation is good but frankly the new system should be in addition to the old and not flat out replacing it. Frankly I don't like holding down tab just to find things so I can start a conversation with my companions. It gets very old, very quickly.

[Addai]

I don't think it's a bad idea to have a combat boost tied to approval. It's not like it's an overwhelming or game-breaking stat that you can't live without. People do fight harder and better for a leader they admire, when they work better as a team, than when they're just doing a job with no personal stake.

[that girl]

I think the point is, Bioware is heading for the “show don't tell” version of DA. As a writer, I get it. A ton of backstory and exposition isn't going to get new readers (or players) to buy into the DA world.



A game is like a book. There are those that want the 1000-page version chock full of descriptions about the way clouds meander across the sky creating shapes of Blight wolves and then of course how everyone feels about it, but the fact is, the plot needs action. It thrives on action - a disturbance occurs followed by an entrance into a new world in which there’s no going back and we struggle with increased tension/strife until the final battle - basic plot structure.



Books that are sold in the mass market have word count limits as well as an expectation to keep the reader hooked. How can we berate Bioware from trying to do the same?



Getting to know your characters is fun, but you can’t tell me you never skipped ahead through the dialog tracks. Come on, you know you did a little with Leliana. Additionally, if you are so fascinated with the lore and rules of Thedas, there’s plenty of codex for you to immerse yourself in. Also, have you read the books? They’re awesome.



Camp scenes are great, but I can see how some would get bogged down by the inactivity sans romance. Romance in camp – yeah, good stuff.



Anyway, have faith in what’s coming. I’m sure it will be better than Awakenings and just as Origins did, it’ll blow your mind.



Now it’s time for me to duck and hide from incoming hate missiles. Remember, this is but one person’s opinion.

[that girl]

One more thing, if you truly want to explore the characters, why not write fan fiction? Just reading some could possibly sate the desire to really KNOW the characters.

[YohkoOhno]

WOW poor wittow baby got its feelings huart, awwwww...... definitely a Customer Service for DUMMY's is in order! In other words David was interested as long as people were kissing his butt!

He just said he WAS NOT in customer service. Clearly you have a problem with reading comprehension if you're telling him to read about customer service.