635 réponses à ce sujet

[MoSa09]

cachx wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...
You need to understand MoSa09's post in
its context. It is in reply to David Gaider's point that it is not fun
for some players to keep clicking on every companion at camp to search
for new conversation options, even though, as you've noticed, you don't
HAVE to. MoSa09's point is that the new system also encourages players
to bring everyone through every dungeon cleared to find new
conversations, again, even though you don't HAVE to.

But the thing is that Origins does force you to go through everything to keep the character's story moving forward. Where as in Awakening it's not vital to go back and trigger (most of the points are either on vigil's or amaranthine wich you'll be visiting numerous times anyway).

that's not entirely true. In Origins, you don't need to talk to them to keep the story moving. You can defeat the Blight without talking to anyone in camp. You need to talk to them to unlock specs and get their personal quests.
In Awakening, sure you don't need to talk to them to finish Awakening. (though in case of Velanna for exmaple, her epilogue makes more sense if you do). In both cases, there is no need for talk to finish the game.
But in Awakening too, to get their quests, you have to talk to them. I took a second run through previously cleared areas to get them to talk and mabe then unlock their quest. So in both games, if you want to have their quests, you have to talk to them.
For players like me, who like to talk to companions and get to know them, i think the new system forcing me to check every area once again to look for dialogue triggers is slowing me down more than the Origins systems did.
especially if you compare Awakening to the size of Origins and imagine a system like this would have been used in such a big world as Origins was, that would have taken hours in all areas and companions.
Of course, i agree you don't have to talk to them, you can complete both games without talking too much. But for players like me who like talking, the new system was more slowing down.

[Rixxencaxx]

Well...let's examine dragon age...

Has dragon age stunning graphics?

NO especcialy on consoles

Has dragon age a big variety of armors and weapons?

NO

Has dragon age a big variety of monsters and creatures?

NO

Has dragon age an original story?

well...it's a good story but i say only...."lord of the rings"

Well...why dragon age was a huge success with more than 3 millions of copies sold?

Cause of party interaction, well written dialogues, choices that matter and have consequences.

If you strip this element form the game...well you have a decent hack n'slash..nothing more...

Just my 2 cents...

PS

I really liked mass effect 2 even with its lack of interaction...but..well when i bought ME2 i was well aware of this thing.

ME2 is a different kind of game it is shooter with rpg elements and well a good story so if i can talk with party members only clicking somewhere in the screen i don't care.

Dao is a different game...i don't think that this adaption may work....nof for me at least...

[MoSa09]

I don't understand why people compare Origins to LotR. Sure, it uses some elements that LotR did too. But LotR used some elements that other fantasy before it used too.
These are not genuine Tolkien ideas but shared elements that simply belong to a classical fantasy setting. But as LotR has become the idealized standard of fantasy, everyone who recognizes a shared fantasy element seems to jump to the conclusion "copied from LotR". Tolkien did a good job of adjusting many common and shared fantasy myths to build a unique setting, as well as the writers of Origins did in their world.
But the shared elements of Origins and LotR are not unique to any of them, but rather common parts of every fantasy around, so saying Origins copied from Tolkien is not a valid claim for me. I for myself liked their story in Origins very much.

Modifié par MoSa09, 20 mars 2010 - 01:49 .

[shedevil3001]

well i'm hoping that bioware will listen to us a bit, and maybe combine the old conversation system with the new system, maybe flesh out the companion interactions and bring back some of our companions, if not all of them as well as the awakening companions in other expansions or da2, while i realize this may be a difficult thing to do, its not impossible, i for 1 would pay extra even if its an extra £20 if the game has the elements that made me love da in the first place like our companion interactions and romancible options, the storyline was amazingly written and i felt connected to the companions and my grey warden in dao, where as in awakening i really didnt connect to the companions, the storyline was good but not as strongly written or as gripping as dao, this could be just coz its an expansion, but this is how i personaly feel about the game, i'm sure i'm not alone in this subject, but not all will share my opinion on this, but come on everyone without david gaider we wouldnt have ever had dao in the first place, he wrote an amazing story that captivated many, is it really necessary to insult him over different opinions, he doesnt have to answer any posts, but he still does, which would be irritating to anyone who posts their opinion only to be insulted. Now while i dont agree with everything gaider has said i appreciate the fact that at least he takes the time to read the threads and answers some posts.

[Layn]

im hoping for a hybrid system in the future.The characters don't even have to have a lot to say, i'm fine with just a "how are you?" (though more is appreciated ).

It's just as the leader and someone who depends on those people during difficult battles and journeys, i like to go up to them at any time to know who and how they are.

[Liso66]

I came up with my best description of the new conversation system! A scavenger hunt for chats! "nods" Just me? Anyone?

[le_cygne]

that girl wrote...

A game is like a book. There are those that want the 1000-page version chock full of descriptions about the way clouds meander across the sky creating shapes of Blight wolves and then of course how everyone feels about it, but the fact is, the plot needs action. It thrives on action - a disturbance occurs followed by an entrance into a new world in which there’s no going back and we struggle with increased tension/strife until the final battle - basic plot structure.

Books that are sold in the mass market have word count limits as well as an expectation to keep the reader hooked. How can we berate Bioware from trying to do the same?

For the same reason we can berate Dan Brown and read Tolstoy instead.

Granted, I'm not saying Dragon Age is Anna Karenina, but there's certainly a spectrum, and many of us hope Dragon Age will stick closer to the end of the spectrum that made it a real (and excellent) roleplaying game. If not, why even bother? Just turn it into an MMO or second-rate shooter. Certainly the narrative needs to be driven by action ... but it already is. That doesn't mean it needs to be all action all the time, and I would argue that it's a stronger game for not going this route, for allowing the player respites to learn about, say, the elven gods, or Zevran's history in Antiva. If all I wanted in a game were action (and sometimes I do), I'd play Half-Life, House of the Dead, or Super Mario Bros.

I realize Bioware is a business and needs to make money. That said, a shlocky horror movie might have a better ROI than an art house film, but that doesn't mean fans of art house cinema shouldn't speak up about what they like. Obviously Dragon Age isn't at either of these extremes--and I'm also not saying there isn't room for both ends of the spectrum--but it was successful enough to please the core audience as well as the mainstream.

Getting to know your characters is fun, but you can’t tell me you never skipped ahead through the dialog tracks. Come on, you know you did a little with Leliana. Additionally, if you are so fascinated with the lore and rules of Thedas, there’s plenty of codex for you to immerse yourself in. 

No, I never skipped through the dialog. In fact, the dialog with Leliana in particular was one of my very favorite parts of the whole game. And really, I don't understand why the need would ever arise to skip through it. It's not as if you're ever forced to chat with her if you don't want to (which, honestly, is what confuses me a bit about David's position, insofar as nobody is ever making the player chat up her companions). Plenty players finished the game in 30 hours, and plenty played it for over 100. That variance belies, to me, strength in the flexibility of the underlying system, as one that can adapt to both styles and both types of players.

The codex is a great way to immerse yourself in the setting, and a nice way of handling depth that some players may care about and others may not, but it's no substitution for character interaction.

Modifié par le_cygne, 20 mars 2010 - 05:33 .

[Cell1e]

I prefered conversation as it is in origins. End of!

[9yuri9]

The new system imho is bull****... it was better and felt more natural to talk in a safe environment to your comrades and get to know their story. The new system is way too annoying. I have to keep tab pressed and the dialogue has been quite limited in comparison to origins but keeping in mind this is an expansion I still felt that wtf happened to the interaction aspect??? Wow bioware, don't just trash the camp site interaction system. Why not use both if you really want it to evolve? I'm not a fan of the awakening system at all. Part of what makes a bioware RPG is the dialogue and in awakening there was too little of it. Color me unimpressed.

Modifié par 9yuri9, 20 mars 2010 - 05:35 .

[TumoLPK]

i've got mixed views on this. i like the interaction style, and the fact that you don't have to talk to everyone for ages just to find out one thing, but i do miss the idea of being able to talk to people when you're wandering round, it's a little... boring i suppose? i like to interact with my party more.

[SSH83]

totally agree with the original poster. the way conversations are spread out and become part of the exploration is pretty neat and helps with the pacing.



however, the choices in awakening felt very arbitrary. It's like a choice of being good for the sake of being good and vise versa. Few of the choices are actually smart/interesting choices. Sometimes it seems that the writer of PC choices had forgotten to note tonality into the sentences, causing players to misinterpret that choice. IE. "(cheerly) sure. whatever you want" vs "(sarcastically) sure. whatever you want."

[Magister Lajciak]

I haven't bought DA: Awakening yet. In fact, I hadn't realized it has already been released (I don't visit the new social site as often as I used to the old boards, because it is constantly logging me out, which I find highly annoying).



Having said that, from what I read about the system, I prefer the old 'talk in camp' system. The reason is that it allows me to follow the story-lines of all the characters, rather than just those I happen to take to a particular spot that would let me initiate a particular conversation. Maybe following the storylines/dialogues of all the party members is less realistic, but I still prefer it. I don't generally replay games (and when I do it is years later to recreate the experience), so I like to get as much content as possible in my one playthrough. The new conversation system seems like it would severely limit that ability with respect to companion storylines/dialogues, so I am not a fan of that.

[LoneFullmetal]

This thread says Awakening is a huge step in the right direction, while the thread right below it (as I type this) says it's a huge step down...

Make up your mind people!

From what I've played it seems like there is a lot of improvements though

Modifié par LoneFullmetal, 20 mars 2010 - 06:27 .

[Witcha]

Mr. Gaider, why take away the option of having a casual, non-plot-driven chat with your companions while adventuring, if not in camp? In DAO, I found that over half of the conversations could be had any time, not just in camp, and often talked to my companions on the field itself.

[Dodco]

Well in Origins none of my NPCs currently have anything new to say. I've exhausted all lines of enquiry with them. Although I'm visiting Denerim next, so this should extrapolate conversation trees with both Alistair and Leliana.

This isn't a perfect system to be honest. I understand perfectly what David is getting at. Now once I have played Awakening, I'll be able to decide for myself what my thoughts are on the new system. Hopefully it isn't as limiting as people are saying.

Modifié par Dodco, 20 mars 2010 - 06:59 .

[Eshaye]

Rixxencaxx wrote...
ME2 is a different kind of game it is shooter with rpg elements and well a good story so if i can talk with party members only clicking somewhere in the screen i don't care.
Dao is a different game...i don't think that this adaption may work....nof for me at least...

Oh no I hated this in ME2 as well. I love ME2 it's a game that just flows and is loads of fun, I prefer Mass Effect over DA so maybe that's why I don't agree with your assessment that in ME2 this new more directed dialogue 'system' doesn't matter, it matters a lot to me. 

I HATE having to find the right points in the environment to click on to instigate a comment, what if I miss it? I guess it makes me scan the areas more and if that was the point, good job BW you got me doing that, a lot! However I loved clicking on Wrex in ME randomly and getting a smart ass comment about whatever planet we were on. In DAO I liked that I could become better or worse friends with my companions anywhere, anytime, conversations usually happen pretty randomly, so why take this away? 

I kinda feel like someone at BW wanted to direct us more but for a game that's supposed to offer choices I find the new direction with the dialogue a step backwards in that sense. Sure it makes us experience the game the way YOU want us to experience it but I thought we were supposed to choose some elements of how to do this ourselves? 

 That's my opinion anyway. 

[Eshaye]

Liso66 wrote...

I came up with my best description of the new conversation system! A scavenger hunt for chats! "nods" Just me? Anyone?

Pretty much!  

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...
There's also a distinction between the dialogue that actually offers insight into a character (which I'm not looking to lose) and the laundry list of questions which is mostly exposition (you haven't noticed, for instance, that those questions are almost always "Tell me about X -- this feature of the world  -- that will start a dialogue which offers no real personality on your part and is mostly just information") which never offered the kind of insight that people keep claiming it does.

I think I know what is meant here, for instance Alistair's information about the Grey Wardens at the beginning of the game, or about the templars later.  However, just because it is exposition doesn't mean that it can't also tell us about the character.  Alistair's Grey Warden list of topics included personal bits, too.  We learn his views on certain things.  Leliana's tales are basically lore, but the nerds among us love stuff like that.  Leave us the option of having those things there.  It is part of what gave Origins its richness.

That's no problem, as it's my job to try and parse any comments that get made. But I do so voluntarily. I can just as easily figure it out for myself without coming anywhere near this forum at all.

I for one do appreciate your input here.  I hope you can read many of the criticisms as people wanting MORE of your writing.

Having now finished Awakening, I have to affirm my opinion that I liked the Origins system better.  Even taking into consideration the necessarity brevity of an expansion, it was frustrating having these tantalizing characters around you and no way to get into their heads.  It feels like a lost opportunity.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2010 - 07:17 .

[Tuleron]

But with this new ssystem of conversation the game losseshis idea: roleplaying. The idea of the old conversation mode was that you became friend with you companion and when a crysis moment appears they decide their option depending on the approval rate, like Zevran.

[worksa8]

 agree this new system is great- but there seemed to be very few talk options. I say either add more, or keep this new system along WITH camp conversation...

[SOLID_EVEREST]

The best game series that I have seen evolve was the MGS series. Kojima pretty much kept his formula the same throughout his whole series, and has been wildly successful. I kind of see taking out camp dialogue in Dragon Age like taking out the codec in the MGS games. Of course, power gamers probably hated the codec, but I always kept going back to the codec just to see if Campbell or anyone else had anything funny to say.

[_- Songlian -]

worksa8 wrote...

 agree this new system is great- but there seemed to be very few talk options. I say either add more, or keep this new system along WITH camp conversation...

Agreed. The new dialogue system works quite well for me, though I would like to see more random lines from the companions and a few more conversation opportunities. Other than that, I like it. 

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

The best game series that I have seen evolve was the MGS series. Kojima pretty much kept his formula the same throughout his whole series, and has been wildly successful. I kind of see taking out camp dialogue in Dragon Age like taking out the codec in the MGS games. Of course, power gamers probably hated the codec, but I always kept going back to the codec just to see if Campbell or anyone else had anything funny to say.

This.
Codec was the awesomesauce. So is the original dialogue system.

[Layn]

LoneFullmetal wrote...

This thread says Awakening is a huge step in the right direction, while the thread right below it (as I type this) says it's a huge step down...

down is the right direction? 

[Derengard]

The problem with the camp conversations in Origins was not really that it was so much, but that in all those hours there was little defining and revelatory. It becomes clear pretty fast that talking to your companions will be of little to no relevance about anything that happens in the gameworld. They don't know anything better than you do and soon you also know everything about them but it hasn't led to anything and still they bore you with their generic feelings. That certainly can be done more effective.