635 réponses à ce sujet

[MoSa09]

Derengard wrote...

The problem with the camp conversations in Origins was not really that it was so much, but that in all those hours there was little defining and revelatory. It becomes clear pretty fast that talking to your companions will be of little to no relevance about anything that happens in the gameworld. They don't know anything better than you do and soon you also know everything about them but it hasn't led to anything and still they bore you with their generic feelings. That certainly can be done more effective.

I suppose that is a difference in gaming-style. I enjoy rpg's for characters and personality and not just talk to them cause they provide information i need or they can hand me a quest i need. And i guess my and some other biggest concern is that BW is heading in the exact same direction, reduce the convos to less personal interaction as it has no value besides producing a generic atmosphere and deep attachment and towards only goal driven convos (quests or quest related information).The new dialogue system pretty much felt that way for me. Already, as Liso said so nicely, it's like a scavenger hunt for plot triggers throughout the areas.
That would mean some kind of a switch in the targeted audience. There's nothing wrong with that, most games apply to that segment of the market, but from a perspective of the more nerdy rpg-gamer, it is just sad as Origins was a rare gemstone, and at least i enjoy the so-called pointless convos that simply provide some backside info to the character without any value.

Of course, there is this issue that if you know how, after one or two runs, you know how to max out the dialogue of a character pretty early and they have nothing to say for the rest of the game. But i would suggest simply use plot flags to address this. Some part of the dialogue is only accessable after you completet the first chapter, some more after the second chapter, some only after the personal quest, some more after the third chapter and some only within the final. That way, without making huge adjustments, you can make sure they have something interesting to tell throughout the whole game without having the need to add any more dialogue.

Modifié par MoSa09, 20 mars 2010 - 09:40 .

[Brockololly]

Derengard wrote...

The problem with the camp conversations in Origins was not really that it was so much, but that in all those hours there was little defining and revelatory. It becomes clear pretty fast that talking to your companions will be of little to no relevance about anything that happens in the gameworld. They don't know anything better than you do and soon you also know everything about them but it hasn't led to anything and still they bore you with their generic feelings. That certainly can be done more effective.

It seems this the main schism in many people's thinking: you've got some people that just want to have "significant" plot related dialogue to move things along and those like myself that see meaning in the expository camp dialogue. Sure, chatting with Alistair about the Templars or Grey Wardens might not change the gameplay or events of the game in a huge way, but for me, they add personality to the characters which is what makes Bioware games "EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING!"

I would much rather have Leliana, Morrigan or Alistair tell me about some organization, person or thing in Thedas and have them put their spin on it than just read about it in the codex. I'm sure it would be cheaper for Bioware to not have the voice actors do all of those extra lines and relegate that sort of info to the codex, but doing so only makes DA more generic and more like any other hack and slash.

To me, the whole point in having some of the expository camp chats was that you not only learn about the world around you from them, but you also pick up on the personality quirks of the companions, so that when you do get to an important plot driven dialogue, you can better gauge where the companions are coming from.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 mars 2010 - 09:40 .

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

To me, the whole point in having some of the expository camp chats was that you not only learn about the world around you from them, but you also pick up on the personality quirks of the companions, so that when you do get to an important plot driven dialogue, you can better gauge where the companions are coming from.

...and, I would add, I work out my own PC's personality and story.

[VampireCommando]

i think that the whole new, clicking on certain things trigger dialouge with specific characters is good, however, i think that if you take the old one, and add the new one in as well, then you shall have one truley epic conversation system, anyone else agree?

[Layn]

Brockololly wrote...
makes Bioware games "EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING!"

Thahahaha! *snort* thank god for the kotaku article to remind me how dedicated bioware is to being "EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING!". they do it pretty well actually! but less so in awakening.

you know, it's all the extra dialog that makes me want to pay any price for bioware games. really. the story is awesome and such and on its own, i'd definitely pay 30€ or a bit more for their games (i usually only buy games when i find them at far far lower prices) on its own, but it's the dialog that makes me want to pay more. and Dragon Age Origins was the absolute pinnacle of dialogue goodness so far to me!

Modifié par Crrash, 20 mars 2010 - 10:40 .

[UnAffectedFiddle]

If they had both ways of adding dialogue yes, but for the new way to take off the world needs a lot more triggers for dialogue...



i.e. one object for each character in Amaranthine is not helpful.

[shedevil3001]

Crrash wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
makes Bioware games "EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING!"

Thahahaha! *snort* thank god for the kotaku article to remind me how dedicated bioware is to being "EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING!". they do it pretty well actually! but less so in awakening.

you know, it's all the extra dialog that makes me want to pay any price for bioware games. really. the story is awesome and such and on its own, i'd definitely pay 30€ or a bit more for their games (i usually only buy games when i find them at far far lower prices) on its own, but it's the dialog that makes me want to pay more. and Dragon Age Origins was the absolute pinnacle of dialogue goodness so far to me!

same here i would of paid just about any price for dao as it was very well written and allowed me to get emotionally connected to the world, my companions and the storyline, making the choices wasnt just a case of oh pick 1, 2 etc, i had to stop and really think about my choices and how it affected the companions i was closer to, also some decions i made was purely because of my romance with alistair and wanted to do anything to help him, but with awakening i didnt really connect with any of the companions because of the lack of conversation and getting to know them, which made me feel like they were just fighters for hire instead of companions, this also made it hard to care what choices i made in the game as i had no real connection with anyone to care how it affected them or my warden but thats just me i think.  1 other thing that also bothered me was the lack of alternative endings in awakening it didnt really give me much insentive for replaying it.

[Liso66]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

If they had both ways of adding dialogue yes, but for the new way to take off the world needs a lot more triggers for dialogue...

i.e. one object for each character in Amaranthine is not helpful.

Worse yet.. Only Oghren gets repeat clicks! Everyone else, one..  Good ole Oghren. He felt right at home garding the Keep...

EDIT: Maybe he was the least expensive to hire for VO 

Modifié par Liso66, 20 mars 2010 - 11:34 .

[Noir201]

Halfway in the game atm, and must say, i really hate the new conversation system, it has it's good points, but it feels so soulless, number of other things i could go in too, but this not the thread for that.

Edit : also like to add, if something like this is what bioware are thinking of using, maybe, it would be of better use in a more action focused game, that has rpg parts, which does appeal to people who want to play a game that gets to the point, but in a game like origins, this wouldn't work.

When i bought awakening, i was speaking to the lady who was serving me, we was talking about origins and she told me her father recommend she gets it, as it back to the old days of balders gate 2, which she loved, she stoped gaming for along time cause most games fall in too the fps/action no substance.

Just throwing that in cause i find its key to why few people have been disappointed.

Modifié par Noir201, 20 mars 2010 - 11:50 .

[Brockololly]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

If they had both ways of adding dialogue yes, but for the new way to take off the world needs a lot more triggers for dialogue...

i.e. one object for each character in Amaranthine is not helpful.

I guess for me, its not a matter of having dialogues outside of camp in the game world- thats fine and hell, I would enjoy more dynamic interactions when you're out adventuring.
My issue is the method of interacting in the game world shouldn't be dependent on being able to find obscure dialogue objects to initiate dialogue. Call it a sacred cow if you want, but IMO, the characters themselves should be the main hub for dialogue- thats just makes the most sense to me, when I want to talk to someone I approach the person and talk, I don't walk up to a tree to start a conversation with my buddy. 

Maybe have it so that when you approach a "dialogue trigger" object like a staute of Andraste or something, the party member makes a little remark about the object, enough to get the player's attention. Then you can click on the character to talk- and if you missed the remark anytime you go by the object within a certain proximity with tab pressed, have the party member's name show up in a different color to indicate they have new dialogue available.

[Layn]

Brockololly wrote...

Maybe have it so that when you approach a "dialogue trigger" object like a staute of Andraste or something, the party member makes a little remark about the object, enough to get the player's attention. Then you can click on the character to talk- and if you missed the remark anytime you go by the object within a certain proximity with tab pressed, have the party member's name show up in a different color to indicate they have new dialogue available.

i remember some companions in mass effect saying "huh" in places like choras den when they had a specific comment to make about the place. Really liked it. But yeah, you talked to the companion to get the comment.

In Mass Effect 2 however it was similar to DAA sometimes some items got highlighted with the information "press A to talk with X". which does kind of make sense. It's like the companion notices that you are paying attention to a certain thing and he/she wants to comment on that.

btw. the inter party banter seems to repeat itself quite a lot! "yes anders, you already have mentioned multiple times that you like tatood women! and she will answer in the exact same way once again!"

Modifié par Crrash, 21 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

[MoSa09]

Well, there are some points with that new system.



First of all, i have no control of whom i talk to. I click on a certain object and wait who responds. If it's the one i like and want to know more of, fine. If it's the one i can't stand, bad luck.

Secondly, instead of simply talking to the one i like, i make a party, get out and look for a dialogue point to trigger conversations. Of course, that system was build more fluid as you encounter the dialogue triggers when you approach them, but when you build your party while playing and then have to leave people behind it inevitably leads to the fact that you make a second party and scan the landscpe for a chance to talk to one of them who was not part of the party the first time you came around.

And third, this kills continuity and attachment. As it's unpredictable in which order i find those triggers, it might happen, as in my case, that i always get responds from different people and never get a real story. First Nathaniel tells me something, than Oghren, Sigrun, Anders, again Oghren, Justine, Velanna, Nathaniel again, Sigrun, and so. You never really can connect with any story cause they are told in pieces (which is not bad in itself, on the contrary, Origins did it the same way). But instead of pursuing that personal story further by asking more questions to that specific one, in Awakening another one opens up. to engage in an emotional way into a personal story, you must pursue that story instead of hearing fragments of stories from different people in a random order. To me, that was one of the biggest reasons why i couldn't connect to the new companions

[blacqout]

Going back to camp and talking to your companions is an aspect of roleplaying games i have always enjoyed. Getting to know Bastilla was one of my favourite things about KotOR.



I think that it would be cool to add aspects of the Awakening system in addition to the original method used in Origins. Essentially keeping the Origins system, but adding more enviornmental triggers that open up unique conversations.



If you really didn't like the characters, you didn't need to talk to them. I quickly ascertained that Sten wasn't worth the trouble and pretty much ignored him.



The times spent talking to Leliana and Wynne in camp were some of my favourite moments from Dragon Age. I'd be disappointed if the Awakening conversation system was kept.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

I don't mind the new system and I think you all need to take into context that Mr D.G want you to use certain elements of the game to initiate dialog rather than go to camp and say 'hey what's your deep secret?' such and such. The most disappointing part of Origins is the fact that you finish the dialog too quickly and it has little relevance with the plot of the game. Sure you learn about them more but they seem to have no opinion about major plot or their opinion's are small in length (you would think that Oghren would have something to say about Branka but he doesn't open up about it). For e.g. when you finish the mage tower, you would expect some of your companions have something more to say about the situation rather than move on and forget about it.



If BioWare want to improve upon the dialog in general, may I suggest more cut scenes between other characters besides yourself at camp. I felt that when ever I returned to camp that it felt hollow and all the companions are all just standing or sitting near the fire and the only person they seem to talk to is you. Character interaction between other character is vital and I would have liked to see the tension or friendship between other character at camp as well as barter on travel. Sounds more natural that way rather than everyone is cold on each other and the only time they talk is in your travels.

[Brockololly]

Yeah I would like to see a more dynamic camp environment too- at least give the companions something to do at camp while the PC is away adventuring. And more interactions between the party members is good, kind of like the couple of cutscenes you can get in ME2 between squadmates.



But I don't want to see more party member interactions if it means less PC-companion interactions. I love the banter and all, but those sort of interactions are only really good once you've been able to get a feel for the companion's personalities and quirks through PC-companion conversation, I think.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

No because you wouldn't know about, therefore you need to speak to them in order to understand. That's how I understand it

[Mlai00]

Oh I'd love it if companions who disapprove of me, talk to each other in camp, but when I click on them to say "Hey what are you guys talking about?" They'll say, "Nothing."

If they gave me the group-cold-shoulder that way, it might help me respond more realistically to their approval ratings, such as (1)kick them out of my camp, or (2)try to be nicer, or (3)kill them first chance I get, LOL.

[Derengard]

Brockololly wrote...

It seems this the main schism in many people's thinking: you've got some people that just want to have "significant" plot related dialogue to move things along and those like myself that see meaning in the expository camp dialogue. Sure, chatting with Alistair about the Templars or Grey Wardens might not change the gameplay or events of the game in a huge way, but for me, they add personality to the characters which is what makes Bioware games "EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING!"

I would much rather have Leliana, Morrigan or Alistair tell me about some organization, person or thing in Thedas and have them put their spin on it than just read about it in the codex. I'm sure it would be cheaper for Bioware to not have the voice actors do all of those extra lines and relegate that sort of info to the codex, but doing so only makes DA more generic and more like any other hack and slash.

To me, the whole point in having some of the expository camp chats was that you not only learn about the world around you from them, but you also pick up on the personality quirks of the companions, so that when you do get to an important plot driven dialogue, you can better gauge where the companions are coming from.

More dialogue for other characters wouldn't make it more a hack'n'slash, but less, and this character development could flesh out the companions more than all that completionary "do you like me, do I like you" and "I'm sad, yes I feel for you" does. I have nothing against personal talks with the characters. But something about the way it's done in DA:O, I found lengths of it rather flat. After two or three stories of Leliana I had gauged her character enough. I would say this could be the cue for something happening in the story, some development of her character, a special quest or a special point of influence, to make the talks with her more worthwile again.
Or you might say quality above quantity. It might not actually be less, but more focused.

Modifié par Derengard, 21 mars 2010 - 02:18 .

[firl1979]

Eh i personally like the old system better. I just found the new system abit annoying that if i wanted to learn about the people in my group i had to to take them to different spots lookign for the lone interactive item in the world that is very easy to miss. I personally like being able to sit at camp and talk to people.



I personally dont find it plausable that ur out in the woods just got killing a horde of darkspawn then u see a tree and click on it and u get ur compainion to chatter off about his or hers life. Personally i find that more of sitting at a camp convo. But thats just my opinion.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

Play_B4_Work wrote...

If they want us to interact with the game environment, fine. It just needs to be done better. Why am I clicking on a tree to hear Anders talk about how good it feels to be out and about? It felt ridiculous.

Trees are a symbol of freedom, life and growth.

[L33TDAWG]

I miss the chatting with the characters and getting to know them... it's what made the game a great god damn RPG

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

How anyone in their right mind can think that having to search the world for conversation points (trees statues etc) hope you have the right companion with you in the first place and because dialog is so expensive (even though DA:O sold extremely well) we'll now have less dialog aparently. Yeah the new conversation system is fricken awesome. /sarcasm

[joshandsally]

I'm about a third of the way through awakening right now. So far I think that the new conversation system is alright. I do appreciate the fact that I don't have to sift through, what it seemed like at times, thousands of questions with each party member in order to feel like I knew everything that I could about them.



I remember spending hours doing that in origins. While I did enjoy it, it did get a bit tedious after awhile. I do appreciate that I don't have to do this with the new conversation system. However...



What I don't like about it is that it eliminates a choice and it feels like it inhibits the game in that area to me. I had my favorite's in Origins and I was so excited to get to talk to them in hopes that they had something new to say. Talking to my fav's never got old for me. If the new conversation is all we get in future games, I will be disappointed.



I hold origins close to my heart, mainly because of all the choices I was able to make, it made it more personal. I just think that eliminating the choice of being able to engage in a conversation with your party members whenever you want will really take away from the game.



So far in awakening, it hasn't been TOO much of a let down because the chars are new and we aren't able to romance any of them anyways, so most of the enjoyment I have been getting from the game is the storyline and gameplay and not so much in the relationships.



IF all future dragon age games strictly adhere to the new system, I am a little worried that they won't be able to hold a candle to Origins...



BUT all that being said I still have faith in the devs, and I HOPE that they will make all future DA games as wonderful as the first one that we all fell in love with.

[Feraele]

Crrash wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Maybe have it so that when you approach a "dialogue trigger" object like a staute of Andraste or something, the party member makes a little remark about the object, enough to get the player's attention. Then you can click on the character to talk- and if you missed the remark anytime you go by the object within a certain proximity with tab pressed, have the party member's name show up in a different color to indicate they have new dialogue available.

i remember some companions in mass effect saying "huh" in places like choras den when they had a specific comment to make about the place. Really liked it. But yeah, you talked to the companion to get the comment.

In Mass Effect 2 however it was similar to DAA sometimes some items got highlighted with the information "press A to talk with X". which does kind of make sense. It's like the companion notices that you are paying attention to a certain thing and he/she wants to comment on that.

btw. the inter party banter seems to repeat itself quite a lot! "yes anders, you already have mentioned multiple times that you like tatood women! and she will answer in the exact same way once again!"

Yes I noticed the repetitive banter as well.....which in a way breaks the immersion..or connection and makes you wonder what happened there.