635 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

I prefer the conversation system from the original to the new one mainly because the amount of gain per little bit of conversation made it feel rushed and shallow. With DA:O I felt like I was really getting to know the inside and out of the companions but with DA:A it felt shallow, as if it was just "party" (as in a fiesta not an adventuring party) chat without any real substance. (Noteable exception being Nathaniel who completely changed my mind on him in his convos). And if you didn't like the convos in DA:O there was always the "ESC" key to fast forward through the boring parts. If you did that in DA:A you missed a lot.

[YohkoOhno]

Actually, I think the cutscenes are provided for merchants because the quality of the game has moved to in-game realities. One thing that DA improved on all the other Bioware games is that they don't degrade minor characters to text-only, which was a big problem in the NWN2 series, and I thought it broke the immersion. (The worst was seeing A. Jerro reduced to text-only in NWN2: MoTB from his fully-voiced cutscenes of the original).



I think the little things like the chantry quests at least acknowledging your activity help a lot to make it seem real and less like a "video game".

[Warikz]

I reckon they should just use a similar style as ME2. Best of both worlds that as you get a bit of both, the random conversations out and about, whilst the deeper stuff taking place in a more comfortable setting.

I am baring in mind that this was probably slightly experimental (to gauge reaction and test it more) for Awakening, which might be the reason there werre no romance options? As that is where I feel the new system will probably come up short if not changed slightly. I feel it would be hard to romance someone whilst knee deep in Darkspawn guts, or in the middle of the Deep Roads...But then it is doable as Maric did it with Fiona in "The Calling", which might hint where David wants to go with it.

Modifié par Warikz, 21 mars 2010 - 04:40 .

[Tuleron]

I respect everybody and his opinions, but there is one thing that you ppl don't understand.
DA is a roleplaying game, and roleplaying games have interaction, conversation, that it's one of the goals of this types of games! Learn about the history in the game through the conversation, get info, doing quest. To not have this type of conversation, go and play a beat a' up.
I cannot imagine you ppl playing games with all conversation (i don't name any games because it forbidden).

Modifié par Tuleron, 21 mars 2010 - 04:55 .

[Iokastos]

LaughingDragon wrote...

Listen to these bioware guys.

They are sitting here dissing the click on your companion dialogue system. It's worked since diablo 1 and beyond, and has been in some of the greatest games ever made. It works amazingly well.

If you guys can't afford to pay your writers why don't you try outsourcing some of the writing? There are thousands of talented writers who would gladly write content for your company for FREE for a chance to get some experience and a writing credit or just for fun.

I seriously read some bioware guy say writing is expensive. lol.

This.

It's as if dialogue has become something irrelevant and Bioware is doing us a favour implementing it at all (see ME2)


/sarcasm on
Who cares about speaking to companions anymore? All I want is shiny loot and kill endless hordes of baddies
/sarcasm off

Modifié par Santiri_azz, 21 mars 2010 - 07:41 .

[Zalgred]

Default137 wrote...

Just wanted to say this to Bioware, in the hopes they keep with it, and keep making it better,

I've always hated going back to my camp after missions, because it means I would have to get some popcorn, and set myself up for 30-45 minutes of talking to people to make them like me, even if I could care less about them. And in many cases it just felt like a really odd system, that was more of a chore then an actual fun thing to do.

This new conversation system is great, it allows me to ignore the childhood of everyone, and actually learn about them as a character, and it never feels like a chore, in fact I often get a childlike glee seeing a new person that wans't standing there before, or finding an object near them that has the clickable mark over it, because it means I'm going to learn something about the world, and how at least one of my characters view it.

Keep up the good work Bioware, this is a great game!

I completely disagree with ya.

The old conversation system was much stronger for this type of game, were you need to get to know your companions and depending on your answers you could win the affection of the character or even lose him from this group.

Right now if you do a couple of right answers you get +100 points and they character is right away warm with ya. What did you learned from the characters? Everything is told to you like in a movie and you have fair little options of asking anything.

On eof the great things of the first game was that you needed to pay attention to what your companions were feeling and how to answer their question of what question you were about to ask. That way you could really make a connection with the characters.

[BeastMTL]

My main beef with the awakenings system its that it encourages (forces ?) metagaming just to get to the characters story.
I must go around every area holding down the TAB key to see those points of interest and now instead of making the group the best mix of abilities I think would be required on an expedition, I must also think who could have interactions in the area. Either that or go back with members I didn't have around the first run through.. Yay, more tedium.

I think it all boils down to control. This system removes conversational control from the player. Feels more like the game plays me.

I ended up not feeling attachment to any companion in this ex-pack because of it.

Still think the best way to do it is a hybrid of the two. Have some conversations happen when a certain character is in a certain area (no clicking on a tree or somesuch) and keep some interactions at basecamp.

Modifié par BeastMTL, 21 mars 2010 - 05:19 .

[Khayness]

BeastMTL wrote...

My main beef with the awakenings system its that it encourages (forces ?) metagaming just to get to the characters story. 

I felt disappointed a bit, something similar experienced in the BG series: No slots for awesome characters, you can't know them better, unless you run through the game again with different party setup. Ditching a member or two for a time just to do the personal quests for XP back in BG2 is just not my style.

[schalafi]

I've read all 18 pages and I can find valid arguments on both sides of the debate. I, for one play rpgs for the dialogue, romance, and interaction with my party, and while the camp was a good place to get to know your npcs, it was kind of tedious to always have to return there for major conversations. On the other side, I liked the ability to trigger conversations in Awakening, although I felt that needed more obvious triggers. My finger got tired holding down Tab after a while, and I'm sure I missed some flags for conversation.

Also, in Origins, I liked when my companions initiated convo with me, not me always having to be the one to start them. In Awakenings I thought the obvious place to have more talks would have been the Keep, as we were all together there. I realize that would have just duplicated "camp". It would have been easier in the Keep, but except for a few triggers, my npcs just kept repeating the same things over and over, which annoyed me.

I like the idea of having a combination of the system in Origins and in Awakening. I also agree that it wouldn't be game breaking to have fewer cut scenes and merchant dialogue. It also might save money to have fewer "on the road" interruptions, (although I enjoyed them) if it would cut down on the costs. I just don't want the story and dialogue sacrificed for a few bells and whistles in the game.

To me the plot, the interactions with my party, romance, and excellent writing are the most important parts of rpg games, Origins had almost all of that, Awakenings had some some of it, ( I loved the frustrating dungeons), and I hope if there's a DA2 It will combine the best of both. 

Modifié par schalafi, 21 mars 2010 - 05:32 .

[TheMadCat]

This is true, However. In DA:O you had a choice to take on a companion
to begin with. "mostly" Aside from Oghren I guess. So hmm..  There must
be a way to reduce overly bloated expenses vs quality of the game. They
are already looking to make cut backs on what is still a new series.

Honestly the solution is simply cut back on the amount of companions, four or five companions total would give them plenty of depth and the ability to implement both systems, while limiting the feeling of "expositions" because you won't sit here listening to ten minutes of dialogue per for 8 characters. I know the idea irks some people but this is one of those situations where less will allow more without giving the feeling of it being overbloated and is a cash saver for Bioware considering it's half the voice actors and a half/quarter of the dialouge. So long as Bioware keepings putting 9-10 companions in the game they're only handcuffing themselves financially and in terms of quality and quantity.

[Shutterbugsue]

LenaMarie wrote...

I think some people should put it in perspective. Sure you can chat with your friends when your at the mall or something, but comfortable surroundings like someones house or hangout is more realistic way to get to know someone on a deeper level. You wouldn't 'believe' someone telling you all about their life in the middle of a crowded mall or in Reference to the game a Crowded Marketplace.

It'd be much more believable to have those deep chats with someone in a more quiet and relaxed setting. Thats mostly why I believe perhaps theres a place for both styles. Casual Conversations out in the world, but deeper more meaningful conversations back at your Base. That seems more immersive and realistic to me.

 I agree with this post,the best of both worlds would be good,but if it can't be done then I would like it the way it was.
 I havent got through this game expansion yet, but I am a bit discouraged with this conversation thing. I have been through the first one several times over on the xbox 360, I loved it so much I got it for the PC. I just hope they dont change too much of what people loved in Dragon Age Origins. I am also hearing that this conversation style is similar to Mass Effect, which is a game I tried to play when it came out but couldnt get into. I am not saying Mass effect isnt a great game. Its just not for me.At first I didnt want to get Dragon Age Origins Cause I thought it would be like Mass Effect, but it indeed wasnt. I hope I wrote in this thing right cause I have never written in the forums before but this is one topic I felt strongly about!

[Tuleron]

Santiri_azz wrote...

LaughingDragon wrote...

Listen to these bioware guys.

They are sitting here dissing the click on your companion dialogue system. It's worked since diablo 1 and beyond, and has been in some of the greatest games ever made. It works amazingly well.

If you guys can't afford to pay your writers why don't you try outsourcing some of the writing? There are thousands of talented writers who would gladly write content for your company for FREE for a chance to get some experience and a writing credit or just for fun.

I seriously read some bioware guy say writing is expensive. lol.

This.

It's as if dialogue has become something irrelevant and Bioware is doing us a favour implementing it at all (see ME2)



Who cares about speaking to companions anymore? All I want is shiny loot and kill endless hordes of baddies
/sarcasm

This is a nice example of a person who is destinate to play beat a' up games.

[Tellervo]

With Awakening's conversation system in Origins, how many of us would have bothered getting to know Morrigan beyond her initial disdain? Alistair around his kicked-puppy moping? Zevran around his taunting and foul mouth? And how would it deal with a stoic character, like Sten? I think I would've cared very little (as I care very little for most of the Awakening companions), and Origins would've become a very lonely game very fast. I've gotten to the point where I really don't care what my companions have to say unless they speak up first in Awakening.  There's just too much tedium in the new system (and the metagamey running around with tab, I'm still not past that).  I want to like some of these characters (Sigrun and Nathaniel in particular), but I just can't bring myself to care.

Modifié par Tellervo, 21 mars 2010 - 07:01 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Though *some* of the arguments and observations for this thread have been lite on valid reasoning, many have given well constructed viewpoints, and I hope Bioware can take those and those alone into consideration while they still have the time and resources to work on DA:2.

For my part, I much prefered the traditional RPG dialogue system used in DA:O. I can understand that many people, likely simply due to multible play-throughs, grew disheartened at the idea of listening to Alistair go on and on about how much he missed Duncan; however, thankfully, Bioware allowed players to skip through the dialogue if they so desired without penalty. Though serious RP'ers might have a bone to pick with such options, I think it was a fair compromize. 

In DA:A (which I still can't seem to register for some reason...) we were given a, you could say, watered down version of the dialogue. However, I don't think anyone should take this as a sign as to where Bioware is planning on taking the conversation tree system. When you think about it, Awakening is an expansion, not a true sequel. As such, it's quite likely that even if you get the Super Mega Happy Ending where you save everyone (haven't managed it yet, though I know it's possible) it's quite likely that these characters will not be seen again in the subsequent expansions or DA:2. A cut-down dialogue system allows one to get the bare bones/important details of the Companions *without* becoming too attached to them. 

And, for my part, I would say it worked. Though I enjoyed these Characters (Sigrun in particular) and wanted to keep them alive through the conclusion, I will not miss them terribly if they do not appear in any following expansions or the Official Sequel. They were good men and women, but they did not become the Family to my Warden in the same way that Lelianna, Wynne, and Sten did. And, I think, that was the point.  

So, I would not agree that the new dialogue system is a step in the right direction as the OP would claim, because I don't think it's any *real* step anywhere. The whole point of it was to allow you to get to know your Companions and thier motivations without learning EVERYTHING, for the purpose of feeling like a Team, but not having them feel like a new extended Family.

*Edit: So...okay. Noticed the Bioware Tag under the Thread (nice observation skills I have *sarcasm*) and I took the time to read Mr. Gaider's responses to the various positive and Snarky responses. First, for those giving David a hard time, it's you people who make interaction with developers *not* a pleasant experience. The ONLY person who had ever come on here from BW and seemed to disrespect the players was Woo, and that acording to him was a misunderstanding.

David and the rest of the Devs BUST THIER ASSES making these amazing experiences for us. So, even if David does not seem willing to bow to everyone's wishes, cut him some Frakking slack. He's got people he needs to go through to get these choices made, he does not make them on his own. Player feedback is only one part of a very long list of things a Dev needs to do to get changes made to a game. So, listen to what he says, have some frakking patience, and wait to see what kind of ideas David and the Devs have to bounce off of us before you try to cruxify them.

Now, as to the conversation changes? Even though I don't *exactly* agree with Mr. Gaider's viewpoint on changing the Dialogue, I can understand his stance on it. The most I can do, for my part, is to say that I Really Enjoyed the dialogue system from DA:O and I would prefer that's not changed too much. To me, refining it does not mean cutting it down. I understand that writing teams are expensive as some of these guys and gals are authors or industry phenoms. However, if it's expensive I would rather they cut down on the number of Characters rather then the dialogue options. None the less, these are just my views and opinions, and I Trust in David, the other Writers, and the rest of the Devs do come to a conclusion on what can be made better without sacrificing too much.

None of Bioware's games have ever dissapointed me. I've been shocked and a little bummed out (*cough* Mhairi *cough*) however, I've never been let down. I know the rest of the DA games will be incredible adventures regardless. So, despite my not wanting to see the dialogue changed to much, I will simply give my Wall 'O Text two cents and leave it at that.

Modifié par glenboy24, 21 mars 2010 - 07:29 .

[Psychoray]

I thought I'd like the new conversation system, it seemed more natural to me.



However, after playing Awakening it seems this is not the case, I don't like it all, and I rather miss the party camp from Origins.



I'm just waiting for a mod that adjusts the level cap in origins and adds the new abilities + rune crafting system. Maybe even add some merchants that sell the Awakening loot like the Sentinel Armor/Blackblade Tunic.

[shedevil3001]

agreed glenboy24 especially (*cough* Mhairi *cough*) i dont know why people have to resort to insults rather than just giving their opinion as thats what forums are for to post what we think of games not harrassment or insults



but most of your post i agree with although i have been dissapointed in 1 game from the nwn series but otherwise most of biowares games have been great though dao will always be my favourite it was very well written and the companions were awesome like a loveable virtual family that you come to care about and want to take with you on your adventures, not so much the awakening companions but theres room for maybe more of a development with them in a full game fingers crossed that da2 is as awesome as dao1 was if so i dont care if i pay £100 quid for it if its got most of the things i loved about dao1 then it would be worth it

[BrianWilly]

Just chiming in to say that I hate the new system. It doesn't feel anything remotely like a new and innovative system; hell, before reading Gaider's comments here, I was fully under the impression that they did it this way because they simply didn't have the time to make real conversations with your companions. 'Cause that's completely how it came across.

I mean, way to take one of the most praised aspects of DAO, the character depth, and cut its balls off at the roots. Don't get me wrong, some characters will still surprise you, but gone are the delicate conversations you and your new friends will have over the soothing campfire, replaced instead with...well, you click on certain, easily missable objects in the game and you'll have your conversations, but it's not really the same, and the new characters suffer heavily for it. They try their best, but at the end you'll feel like you barely know any of these people.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 22 mars 2010 - 02:15 .

[habitat 67]

Count me in with those that do not like Awakening's conversation system.  I thought it was just me.

BrianWilly wrote...
 Don't get me wrong, some characters will
still surprise you, but gone are the delicate conversations you and
your new friends will have over the soothing campfire, replaced instead
with...well, you click on certain, easily missable objects in the game
and you'll have your conversations, but it's not really the same, and
the new characters suffer heavily for it. They try their best, but at
the end you'll feel like you barely know any of these people.

I have almost finished the game feeling that some possibly really great characters (especially Nathaniel & Anders) have been seriously stifled by a lack of decent interaction. Couple this with the idea that I may never see them again and I am left scratching my head at what the point was. 

The other aspects of Awakenings were fine though, but the mood of the game is lonely like Fallout 3 as someone said many pages ago.

Origins = If it isn't broken don't fix it.  

[Giltspur]

Alleged Problem:
With the old systems are that you end up making the rounds at camp to see if there are new options and draining dialogue at camp.

Related Problem with New System:
I see posts from people about having to go to old areas to trigger talking points for characters to get their rep high enough to start the sidequests.  So there, they're just making their rounds around the world and draining the world of its new clickable  interaction points instead of around camp—not really an improvement.  Actually, that's worse because the rounds are bigger and less realistic in an RP-sense.  

Now if you don't have to do this to unlock the sidequests, it's not an issue per se.  It's just a case of not being able to have it all the conversations on one playthrough, which is fine—desirable even.  But I don't think that's all that's going on.  Maybe some didn't have this problem.  But I did and generally don't think I should have.  I play the game with tab held down all the time (so that I click every object, find every arcane warrior hidden under a table), gave every gift I found to the right person, didn't get any big disapprovals from conversation, bought gifts to give to the right person and still beat the game before I'd unlocked some personal sidequests.  So I think things aren't tuned right when it comes to unlocking personal sidequests.  Basically, it should be easier.  And giving gifts plays too large a role in approval in Awakenings.  I think, at most, gifts should be a way for people not interested in conversation to wallpaper over bad conversation choices.  They, with the possible exception of the ones that initiate scenes, shouldn't be required part of upping approval.

[kingthrall]

schalafi wrote...

I've read all 18 pages and I can find valid arguments on both sides of the debate. I, for one play rpgs for the dialogue, romance, and interaction with my party, and while the camp was a good place to get to know your npcs, it was kind of tedious to always have to return there for major conversations. On the other side, I liked the ability to trigger conversations in Awakening, although I felt that needed more obvious triggers. My finger got tired holding down Tab after a while, and I'm sure I missed some flags for conversation.

Also, in Origins, I liked when my companions initiated convo with me, not me always having to be the one to start them. In Awakenings I thought the obvious place to have more talks would have been the Keep, as we were all together there. I realize that would have just duplicated "camp". It would have been easier in the Keep, but except for a few triggers, my npcs just kept repeating the same things over and over, which annoyed me.

I like the idea of having a combination of the system in Origins and in Awakening. I also agree that it wouldn't be game breaking to have fewer cut scenes and merchant dialogue. It also might save money to have fewer "on the road" interruptions, (although I enjoyed them) if it would cut down on the costs. I just don't want the story and dialogue sacrificed for a few bells and whistles in the game.

if you read all 18 pages then you should know that i didnt side with anyone, and actually suggested somthing that is entirely missing from the game.

I should also add, that the party camp has made this problem on its own. Compared to baldurs gate where you just have to travel to the Tavern or a specific place to find a party member you dont get the problem of generic interaction. It also is more realistic in baldurs gate, because the camp system is like a lazy way of having a billion taverns all over the world map with your instant shop and free heals. Also its realistic because not everyone waits days upon end in camp and not even spoken to, you would just leave and say hey ill meet up with you later when your actually going to talk to me.

Modifié par kingthrall, 22 mars 2010 - 07:31 .

[arolas6622]

 i miss being able to talk to my companions.. tho i guess they done it this way in awakening is because its only about 7 hours game play so not alot of time to develop character

[Dj LynZee]

I hated the lack of conversation in Awakening. Bioware, do not listen to the OP! PLEASE!

[Pinkleaf]

New conversation system = rubbish. The old one was great why did you have to go and change it?

[Axekix]

BrianWilly wrote...

Just chiming in to say that I hate the new system. It doesn't feel anything remotely like a new and innovative system; hell, before reading Gaider's comments here, I was fully under the impression that they did it this way because they simply didn't have the time to make real conversations with your companions. 'Cause that's completely how it came across.

Couldn't agree more.  I felt completely detatched from my companions in DA:A, which was really disappointing considering their dramatic potential (Nathaniel/Mhairi especially). 

I was under the impression that it was just a cost cutting side effect... but if this was intended from a creative standpoint, I have to voice my dislike of the new system.

Overall I found DA:A to be much less immersive than DA:O, and one of the biggest reasons was the dialogue system.