635 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

LenaMarie wrote..

It'd be much more believable to have those deep chats with someone in a more quiet and relaxed setting. Thats mostly why I believe perhaps theres a place for both styles. Casual Conversations out in the world, but deeper more meaningful conversations back at your Base. That seems more immersive and realistic to me.

Yeah I agree- I'm only about 5 hours in or so and I have mixed feelings on the new dialogue system. On the pro side its nice to be able to chat with the party members in a more dynamic environment, but at the same time I feel a bit more disconnected from them when at Vigil's keep and on the whole. I miss not being able to ask them the laundry list of questions at camp, if only to get a better feeling for what they may think on certain issues in the world or more about their background beyond what they say when your're out adventuring.

So yeah, I like your idea- maybe have the more dynamic conversations in the world, but once back at camp maybe be able to have more in depth player initiated conversation regarding whatever it was that you started talking about while adventuring. But at the same time part of the charm of the old system was that frequently, you wouldn;t get anywhere, but that was part of building the character- take Sten for example; how many times did he just say "No" or a similar succinct response before finally triggering an event while adventuring that maybe made him open up more. But without the initial struggles at conversation, I don't think he would have been as memorable a character.

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 mars 2010 - 04:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The system isn't bad, but it isn't good either. It added something nice and took away something else. I believe the best of both worlds can be merged. Which is the case in ME2.

[Lasseda]

I really miss the old conversation system, to be honest. I mean - I loved being able to talk to each character when I wanted to, not when the game threw an event in. I felt it made the game more personal. I really hope that in DA:O 2 they bring back aspects of the old one and implement it into the new. Like - still offering the old system for your active party members and love interests (how else will you get them in your tent lol).



However, I am loving awakenings so far! I can't wait to finish it tomorrow after work!

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...

My personal thought on that is, instead of having questions that you can ask a follower, having conversations you can initiate with them in camp in the same fashion that you do out in the world. So maybe there's a keg in camp and you see that clicking on it means "have a drink with Oghren" or similar... maybe even new items appear, such as something taken from a quest and you can ask someone about it without needing to have them in your active party per se.

Somthing to consider in the way of adding more "personal" conversations, perhaps, though that may be a step down a slippery slope. Hard to say.

I'm all for a more dynamic camp environment with more interaction amongst party members and the PC but I don't know... One of the things I don't care for thus far in Awakening is when you're back at Vigil's Keep to talk with Oghren you basically click on the cask right behind him, but not on Oghren himself? Yeah he is drunk half of the time when clicking on the cask, but I'd rather have it that instead of clicking on the cask or on the picture of Nathaniel's mother, just have the party member doing some action to indicate that their focus is on said object so that when you click on the party member, the dialogue starts up with them focused on whatever it is they are focused on.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd prefer a happy middle, while it made the world feel more alive by having characters comment on things and having them reflect - I didn't get too attached to the characters. I felt like I wanted to dive more into their character, but couldn't because I was limited to their comments.



I felt like I wasn't actually interacting with them, they were interacting with me and I either agreed or disagreed to their opinions. I wanted to ask so many things to them, but felt limited in my ability to interact.

[DeadlyBlades621]

Well, do keep in mind people, there were limited resources while making the expansion, and, it's an expansion. Don't take this as the "NEW" system, more so, the expansion's system. Although, I do think Bioware tried out a few things to see how it went over. For the next game, we'll get the best of both worlds.

[Dave of Canada]

DeadlyBlades621 wrote...

Well, do keep in mind people, there were limited resources while making the expansion, and, it's an expansion. Don't take this as the "NEW" system, more so, the expansion's system. Although, I do think Bioware tried out a few things to see how it went over. For the next game, we'll get the best of both worlds.

I'm just fearful they'll take away the camp aspect completely from future games.

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd prefer a happy middle, while it made the world feel more alive by having characters comment on things and having them reflect - I didn't get too attached to the characters. I felt like I wanted to dive more into their character, but couldn't because I was limited to their comments.

I felt like I wasn't actually interacting with them, they were interacting with me and I either agreed or disagreed to their opinions. I wanted to ask so many things to them, but felt limited in my ability to interact.

Exactly- the system as it is now makes the player ( or me at least) almost feel like the whole thing is on rails and takes the power away from the player. One of the things I liked in Origins was being able to just check in with a companion to ask them questions, it made my PC seem like he had an interest in his followers whereas the system now makes my PC seem like a passive mute that just waits for the ok from the companions before they can talk- and even then its only on the companion's terms.

[DeadlyBlades621]

Brockololly wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd prefer a happy middle, while it made the world feel more alive by having characters comment on things and having them reflect - I didn't get too attached to the characters. I felt like I wanted to dive more into their character, but couldn't because I was limited to their comments.

I felt like I wasn't actually interacting with them, they were interacting with me and I either agreed or disagreed to their opinions. I wanted to ask so many things to them, but felt limited in my ability to interact.

Exactly- the system as it is now makes the player ( or me at least) almost feel like the whole thing is on rails and takes the power away from the player. One of the things I liked in Origins was being able to just check in with a companion to ask them questions, it made my PC seem like he had an interest in his followers whereas the system now makes my PC seem like a passive mute that just waits for the ok from the companions before they can talk- and even then its only on the companion's terms.

Well, it is an expansion, and arguably, has to be on rails considering how little dialog there is compared to the full game.

[DeadlyBlades621]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DeadlyBlades621 wrote...

Well, do keep in mind people, there were limited resources while making the expansion, and, it's an expansion. Don't take this as the "NEW" system, more so, the expansion's system. Although, I do think Bioware tried out a few things to see how it went over. For the next game, we'll get the best of both worlds.

I'm just fearful they'll take away the camp aspect completely from future games.

I think they tried to create Vigil's keep into a new, expanded camp.  You're just a little home sick.

But I do think that most "camps" will now be a small castle or town, same as Vigil's keep.  Depends on the situation, yes?

[Brockololly]

DeadlyBlades621 wrote..

Well, it is an expansion, and arguably, has to be on rails considering how little dialog there is compared to the full game.

Yeah I get that, I'm not expecting the volume of character development or dialogue that we had in DAO but from everything I've read from Mr. Gaider, it seems like they wanted to tweak the dialogue system in this fashion expansion or not- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gaider

[DeadlyBlades621]

Brockololly wrote...

DeadlyBlades621 wrote..

Well, it is an expansion, and arguably, has to be on rails considering how little dialog there is compared to the full game.

Yeah I get that, I'm not expecting the volume of character development or dialogue that we had in DAO but from everything I've read from Mr. Gaider, it seems like they wanted to tweak the dialogue system in this fashion expansion or not- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gaider

Oh yeah, they wanted to play with it, but it's not where they want it yet.  I think with a full game, this kind of system can really shine.  Being able to talk to party members at any time is a good thing, I just think that for an expansion, they did what they could and are going to see how the public likes it, and tweak from there.  I think reducing alot of the changes but improving major elements of the original system will get a very deep conversation system.  I'm liking it for now, but if it was an entire game, I would complain.

[Brockololly]

DeadlyBlades621 wrote...

Oh yeah, they wanted to play with it, but it's not where they want it yet.  I think with a full game, this kind of system can really shine.  Being able to talk to party members at any time is a good thing, I just think that for an expansion, they did what they could and are going to see how the public likes it, and tweak from there.  I think reducing alot of the changes but improving major elements of the original system will get a very deep conversation system.  I'm liking it for now, but if it was an entire game, I would complain.

Agreed- Th system as it is now feels scaled back in scope from what we had in DAO and while it has its benefits, IMO it also is a step back in some regards from what we had in DAO. For an expansion its ok and I hope that they give us MOAR! for DA2, or whatever it is they are brewing up there in Edmonton.

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah I get that, I'm not expecting the volume of character development or dialogue that we had in DAO but from everything I've read from Mr. Gaider, it seems like they wanted to tweak the dialogue system in this fashion expansion or not- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gaider

That is indeed so.

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

[Jenocide]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah I get that, I'm not expecting the volume of character development or dialogue that we had in DAO but from everything I've read from Mr. Gaider, it seems like they wanted to tweak the dialogue system in this fashion expansion or not- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gaider

That is indeed so.

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

Darn you David your making me think agrrr 

[Dave of Canada]

David Gaider wrote...

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

My complaint with the system as I mentioned above was that you're not actually involved with the character itself, you're just reacting to their comments and sayings instead. You can't go to Nathaniel and ask him "What were you doing in the free marshes?" when he brings it up in a lot of conversations, you can only tell him things after he tells them to you.

I don't like the lack of interacting my character shares with the cast, it felt too one-sided in their favor. The new system did give characters their own views and interests, it was interesting hearing their comments in the areas explored and how they felt but dragged myself away from them being actually "people" in a sense.

I still feel I got to know some random NPC more than the main cast.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 mars 2010 - 04:48 .

[Jenocide]

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

My complaint with the system as I mentioned above was that you're not actually involved with the character itself, you're just reacting to their comments and sayings instead. You can't go to Nathaniel and ask him "What were you doing in the free marshes?" when he brings it up in a lot of conversations, you can only tell him things after he tells them to you.

I don't like the lack of interacting my character shares with the cast, it felt too one-sided in their favor. The new system did give characters their own views and interests, it was interesting hearing their comments in the areas explored and how they felt but dragged myself away from them being actually "people" in a sense.

I still feel I got to know some random NPC more than the main cast.

You could have some general question that come up based on the back ground info giving to you when you meet the NPC this and more of the lore can be passed by camp site talking.

But the general NPC development should happen on the road. As your and your NPC become more close and friendly, this could also unlock more question at the keep based on the info they have shared soofar.

This will make the player feel as if he really starting a relationship with the NPC. As if your starting a relationship with someone life. IMO

also more item giving based convo's would be nice because everyone start talking when you give them free beer 

[KnightofPhoenix]

David Gaider wrote...

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

I fail to see what's the problem with that.

The new system doesn't really allow to me converse with the character. It's just me responding to his / her comment. That's it.
That's not saying that those comments are pointless or that they don't  have depth, because they do. But I don't feel like I am actually talking with any of them.

I do not like the fact that it's the game that imposes where and when I should talk to my companions. 
In addition, the new system doesn't allow me to ask them personal questions. I can't ask Oghren how Felsi is doing, how he feels to be a father and why he joined the Wardens.
I can't ask Howe what he was doing in the Free MArches or what he feels about the Couslands.

I really do not see how the origin system is a problem. It could have been improved, but it didn't need to be removed in this fashion. Truly, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. Just add to it. 

[Grimgor79]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah I get that, I'm not expecting the volume of character development or dialogue that we had in DAO but from everything I've read from Mr. Gaider, it seems like they wanted to tweak the dialogue system in this fashion expansion or not- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gaider

That is indeed so.

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

 In reference to the bolded part, Mr. Gaider.

   You see, I think that is the point here. Taking a "break" from the game action to just chum around with your companions is very refreshing. I find that in games where I just have to keep my head down the whole time working toward the goal it can get somewhat repetetive. In Origins whenever I feel even a little like this I just hop on over to camp, change out a few members gear, speak to anyone I havent had a good chat with in a while and before you know it I'm revitalized and ready to go kill some more darkspawn.

[DeadlyBlades621]

Aye, I see what you are saying Gaider. I'm certainly leaning towards the new system's style, because as you pointed out, repeatedly talking to party members to see if there is a new conversation topic is unnatural. Finding a pattern of conversational prompts that would send you into camp to get to new topics or further relationship status with members is the best way to go. I really like returning to the Keep and being greeted by a member, and the conversation going from there. Thats far easier than checking, and checking, and checking. I think you guys at Bioware are on to something, and I'd love to see it work with romances, I think it'd really improve that whole experience.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

I fail to see what's the problem with that.

The new system doesn't really allow to me converse with the character. It's just me responding to his / her comment. That's it.
That's not saying that those comments are pointless or that they don't  have depth, because they do. But I don't feel like I am actually talking with any of them.

I do not like the fact that it's the game that imposes where and when I should talk to my companions. 
In addition, the new system doesn't allow me to ask them personal questions. I can't ask Oghren how Felsi is doing, how he feels to be a father and why he joined the Wardens.
I can't ask Howe what he was doing in the Free MArches or what he feels about the Couslands.

I really do not see how the origin system is a problem. It could have been improved, but it didn't need to be removed in this fashion. Truly, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. Just add to it. 

My feelings exactly.

David Gaider wrote...

For those that are suggesting a
"best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues
outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a
bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once
again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check
to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

But to address David's point, as I see it, I never had a problem circulating through camp clicking on my companions to talk with them. The issue and I think this is what Gaider is getting at (correct me if I'm wrong), is that you want to find a way to eliminate the player having to make the rounds with the companions only to click on them and realize they have no new dialogue. You're trying to get a method so that when the PC clicks on a character to chat, the character will have something new to say. Am I right?

Maybe instead of giving the player a huge lump of questions to choose from at the onset, limit it to just a couple and based on certain triggers (like the more environmental dialogue cues or approval) that can open up more open ended questions, some of which pertain to previous conversations or to the events or items in camp.

I mean in DAO and in most Bioware RPGs, I always tend to burn through the available dialogue really quick, so I guess there just needs to be some sort of underlying pacing mechanism in place so that way you would always have new questions to ask. And I know the whole environmental dialogue cues is a sort of pacing mechanism, but my problem with that is that it takes the agency away from the PC... Well I guess this is why you make games for a living and I don't 

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 mars 2010 - 05:28 .

[Taritu]

Checking in was irritating in ME2 because of there just wasn't that much dialogue and because the triggers for more dialogue weren't clear. In ME1 it was perfectly fine, because the triggers for new dialogue (a story mission) were very clear.



In DA:O I never found checking in to be a chore because it was fairly clearly when a character had run out of dialogue, then I just checked in occasionally after a full mission to see if they had anything new to say. No big deal



So, as long as the trigger is clear, I see nothing wrong with them having some conversations in camp.



But then, I don't understand what the problem with having a mixture is, that's what was in BG2, and it seemed to work fine. It really isn't that irritating to check back occasionally, unless you have a camp with multiple levels and no clear triggers (aka: ME2). Are you really getting tons of feedback that the old system was broken?



In the transition from ME1 to ME2, the devs took much of what people complained about and just deleted it (people don't like the Mako? We'll just delete it! People don't like elevators? We'll make an even more boring loading screen with no character exposition at all!)



Gotta be careful about that. Does it need tweaking, fixing, or to be eliminated and replaced with something else?

[Jenocide]

~off-topic



wow i didn't know there was such a thing as a mature video game forum..

Dragon age fan's are truly are the best around..

[Walina]

Default137 wrote...

Just wanted to say this to Bioware, in the hopes they keep with it, and keep making it better,

I've always hated going back to my camp after missions, because it means I would have to get some popcorn, and set myself up for 30-45 minutes of talking to people to make them like me, even if I could care less about them. And in many cases it just felt like a really odd system, that was more of a chore then an actual fun thing to do.

This new conversation system is great, it allows me to ignore the childhood of everyone, and actually learn about them as a character, and it never feels like a chore, in fact I often get a childlike glee seeing a new person that wans't standing there before, or finding an object near them that has the clickable mark over it, because it means I'm going to learn something about the world, and how at least one of my characters view it.

Keep up the good work Bioware, this is a great game!

Idiot.
I dislike people who don't understand that was the only way to get to know your companions since they don't really spoke often (I find quite rare) in the main story dialogues and also you don't need to talk to them after completing an "arch" / a race... since their dialogues don't depend on it.


Though, I would've prefered them to participate more during the dialogs and have their conversation updated at camp after each missions so I could their know their though about what has happened.

My point here, I didn't get to like the companions as whole team but more as individuals characters, the only moment that I liked having a team is for fighting and when they talk to each other outside the camp. I would've liked to see more "group events".

Modifié par Walina, 17 mars 2010 - 06:03 .

[angj57]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah I get that, I'm not expecting the volume of character development or dialogue that we had in DAO but from everything I've read from Mr. Gaider, it seems like they wanted to tweak the dialogue system in this fashion expansion or not- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gaider

That is indeed so.

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

I see what you are trying to avoid, but I think having conversations at the campsite really increased my immersion. It gave me the feeling like my character was actually living in Ferelden and, rather than just killing darkspawn, he actually had to rest, eat, sleep, etc. The campsite felt like a much more natural place to sit around flirting with companions then the middle of the battlefield did.