635 réponses à ce sujet

[DanaScu]

BeastMTL wrote...

My main beef with the awakenings system its that it encourages (forces ?) metagaming just to get to the characters story.
I must go around every area holding down the TAB key to see those points of interest and now instead of making the group the best mix of abilities I think would be required on an expedition, I must also think who could have interactions in the area. Either that or go back with members I didn't have around the first run through.. Yay, more tedium.

I think it all boils down to control. This system removes conversational control from the player. Feels more like the game plays me.

I ended up not feeling attachment to any companion in this ex-pack because of it.

Still think the best way to do it is a hybrid of the two. Have some conversations happen when a certain character is in a certain area (no clicking on a tree or somesuch) and keep some interactions at basecamp.

This. I've never used the tab key as much as I did in this game, including typing documents in Word. Not fun, imo.

I won't mention that after the Mabari Dominance "quest" in DA:O and the way Oghren was acting in DA:A, I was really, really reluctant to click on any trees with him in my party. I ended up skipping the majority of the companion dialogue, and find myself not really caring about a replay to see what I missed. Not if I have to keep abusing the tab key.

I enjoyed the talk at camp a lot more than clicking on landmarks...

[Mlai00]

Just want to note that... in my first playthru of DAO, I must have missed at least 25%-35% of all clickable objects in the environment, and I was a careful gamer hovering my mouse over every interesting looking object. Only reason I know this is because in my 2nd playthru I'm starting to use the Tab button, which I consider a cheating crutch. Thankfully they're mostly codex entries, but I had *completely* missed quite a few secret quests, such Watchguard of the Reaching.



Honestly, who wants to play a game with Tab permanently held down literally all the time?



So, what does this mean for me in DAA or DAO2? Will I be missing half my companions' conversations? Unless every conversation-trigger object has an immersion-breaking rainbow glow or flashing arrow on it, I don't see how it can be avoided.



When your party comes across a conversation trigger, the person interested must speak a little quip so that I know I need to click something. Pressing Tab is a HUGE CHORE.

[Kohaku]

Mlai00 wrote...

When your party comes across a conversation trigger, the person interested must speak a little quip so that I know I need to click something. Pressing Tab is a HUGE CHORE.

I will agree if only for one reason, I messed up my TAB key while playing Oblivion. I don't mind using TAB, however, I don't want to mess the key up on my new laptop. I never knew I could use it in Baldur's Gate 2 until last night when I was in DA:O mode and pressed TAB on instinct.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 22 mars 2010 - 12:20 .

[Tirigon]

David Gaider wrote...

Excellent example!

The drawback might be viewed as you being unable to go around in camp and chat with every party member, regardless of whether you spend any time adventuring with them. I don't know that this is necessarily a drawback, however, as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. That and I think a system that doesn't make the player feel like they have to keep "checking in" with a character regularly to see if they have anything new to say is more natural -- saving their interactions for those times when what they have to say is more significant.

Though this is true I still miss the good old camp. What about having both? Dialogues at Landmarks for talks about the companion´s view on this particular thing, and a quiet talk at the camp about the past or some "off-topic" stuff (I loved Leliannas stories from Orlais, for example).

[dragon_83]

If only they had put a sparkling effect on every trigger places/items. Just like on the loot. Would have made things easier. I hope a modder will do this in the future, or a patch.

Modifié par dragon_83, 22 mars 2010 - 12:44 .

[Karlojey]

I personally liked speaking with my companions similar to DA:O. I personally don't find it a chore because I enjoy knowing stuff about them. Plus I don't talk to everyone, just the ones that like and always bring along.



I haven't finished DA:A yet, but so far I don't know much about my companions unless I find an event that relates to them. If I miss it, then I miss out on a story about them. So over-all, I'm not a fan of the new conversation system.

[Yrkoon]

  Ser Gaider... I know you've exited this thread, but I'm bored  so I'm going to respond to one of your posts anyway...

David Gaider wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I do not like the fact that it's the game that imposes where and when I should talk to my companions. 
In addition, the new system doesn't allow me to ask them personal questions. I can't ask Oghren how Felsi is doing, how he feels to be a father and why he joined the Wardens.
I can't ask Howe what he was doing in the Free MArches or what he feels about the Couslands.

I really do not see how the origin system is a problem. It could have been improved, but it didn't need to be removed in this fashion. Truly, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. Just add to it. 

Well, my response to that is: "why do you think you should be able to ask a follower a bunch of personal questions?" Is it because Origins conditioned you to expect those questions? Or because you actually needed them in order to find out more about the character?

A little of both?  The point remains.  The old system wasn't broken  (having a few minor  flaws doesn't automatically mean it's broken, does it.)  And the new system is neither a fix nor an improvement.     It may be cheaper and less work  for the developer, but   I don't care about that.  I'm  a consumer, not a developer.

Incidently, it's also  less work for developers to  put out short  games that don't have any graphics or voice acting in them at all.  But good luck selling a million copies of such a game in 2010

Baldur's Gate 2 didn't allow you to click on party members for anything -- all dialogue was initiated by them. Not that the BG2 system didn't have its own weaknesses (the random "initiate anywhere" style, for one) but I think the point still holds. Nobody was looking for it, and it wasn't missed -- people still felt very connected to those characters. I'm seeing people wanting some more personal interaction with their party members, but I'm not sure the "list of questions" is needed in order to achieve that.

Good point about BG2.    Though I will say that I felt a hell of a lot more  connected to my  DA:O  characters than I did with my BG2 characters. 

And what's wrong with the random initiate  anywhere style  of  BG2's convos?  It's realistic  (well, except for the one time that  my party was about to take on a Dragon and Viconia chimes in and says:  "so.... I'm wondering your  thought are regarding marriage..."  LOL) 

 I get it -- from the perspective of a fan, why not add more? More is always the solution. I'm simply looking for alternate ways to achieve the goal of character development without needing to provide it through exposition and heaps of low-impact dialogue.

I don't think there IS an alternative.  There's really only one way to get to know someone:   And that's by  talking to them.  And the more they say, the more they reveal.  That's the way of the real world, and that's the way  of the virtual world.

If your opinion is you'd like to do it anyway, and that your preference is to be able to explore the thoughts and feelings of your party members whenever you'd like, that's fine. Feel free to say so. From a developer perspective, I'm simply going to look at it from different angles.

And what exactly is that's supposed to mean?   What other angles?

1) Not being able to explore the thoughts and feelings of your companions at all?  (lame... a clear step backwards)
2) Only being able to explore the thoughts and feelings of your  companions  at strictly appointed times and places?  (Unrealistic.  Illogical.   Do your best friends  talk to you   ONLY when you encounter something unique in the world?   No.  At least mine don't.  lol.   It would make much more sense to just keep the old system in place then  ADD new dialogue choices when encountering the clickable tree, or the dying man, or the stray cat)
3) Same system but less of it?  (that's fine.... but we'll call you lazy, and we'll call your game shallow)
4) Keep the old system and don't change it?  (Well, for now this seems to be the best solution.  I understand it may be too expensive to maintain... or rather... too expensive for YOU guys to maintain.  Or so you seem to be suggesting.... but  if you don't maintain it,  the time will come where some young, hungry gaming company  WILL... and they'll show you guys up....)

Modifié par Yrkoon, 22 mars 2010 - 01:46 .

[schalafi]

I hope DA2 won't cut the dialogue options that were available in Origins. It just wouldn't be a Bioware rpg if it skimped on that, since that's what makes them stand out above all other rpgs, imo.

[Layn]

you know, i have to cringe every time someone says a developer, specially one like bioware, is lazy. Yes they put less into it than we'd like and are used to from them, but they certainly aren't lazy

[Tuleron]

David Gaider wrote...
Well, my response to that is: "why do
you think you should be able to ask a follower a bunch of
personal questions?" Is it because Origins conditioned you to expect
those questions? Or because you actually needed them in order to find
out more about the character?

I don't understand, who sell
the game and public it like "NEW SISTEM OF DIALOGUE, YOU WOULD BE ABLE
TO LOVE AND MAKE BABYS WITH THIS NEW CONV. SIST. AND THE STORY WOULD
CHANGE ON YOUR CHOICE, LIKE IF YOU MAKE L'AMOOOOUUUR YOU GET A LITTLE
BASTARD OR IF YOU DO NOT YOU'RE SCREW, ENJOY!".
Ppl who say "ohh but
bioware work for us and blablabla" i split on them, you made it, i
bought it. You can do what you want with the game and how you build it, but i think that you can advise us what change you make, because the stupid who bought it and give you money, it's me, so a little of respect.

Modifié par Tuleron, 22 mars 2010 - 10:13 .

[that girl]

LaughingDragon wrote...

If you guys can't afford to pay your writers why don't you try outsourcing some of the writing? There are thousands of talented writers who would gladly write content for your company for FREE for a chance to get some experience and a writing credit or just for fun.

I seriously read some bioware guy say writing is expensive. lol.

Love this idea. COUNT ME IN!

[kingthrall]

Yrkoon wrote...

  Ser Gaider... I know you've exited this thread, but I'm bored  so I'm going to respond to one of your posts anyway...

David Gaider wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I do not like the fact that it's the game that imposes where and when I should talk to my companions. 
In addition, the new system doesn't allow me to ask them personal questions. I can't ask Oghren how Felsi is doing, how he feels to be a father and why he joined the Wardens.
I can't ask Howe what he was doing in the Free MArches or what he feels about the Couslands.

I really do not see how the origin system is a problem. It could have been improved, but it didn't need to be removed in this fashion. Truly, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. Just add to it. 

Well, my response to that is: "why do you think you should be able to ask a follower a bunch of personal questions?" Is it because Origins conditioned you to expect those questions? Or because you actually needed them in order to find out more about the character?

A little of both?  The point remains.  The old system wasn't broken  (having a few minor  flaws doesn't automatically mean it's broken, does it.)  And the new system is neither a fix nor an improvement.     It may be cheaper and less work  for the developer, but   I don't care about that.  I'm  a consumer, not a developer.

Incidently, it's also  less work for developers to  put out short  games that don't have any graphics or voice acting in them at all.  But good luck selling a million copies of such a game in 2010

Baldur's Gate 2 didn't allow you to click on party members for anything -- all dialogue was initiated by them. Not that the BG2 system didn't have its own weaknesses (the random "initiate anywhere" style, for one) but I think the point still holds. Nobody was looking for it, and it wasn't missed -- people still felt very connected to those characters. I'm seeing people wanting some more personal interaction with their party members, but I'm not sure the "list of questions" is needed in order to achieve that.

Good point about BG2.    Though I will say that I felt a hell of a lot more  connected to my  DA:O  characters than I did with my BG2 characters. 

And what's wrong with the random initiate  anywhere style  of  BG2's convos?  It's realistic  (well, except for the one time that  my party was about to take on a Dragon and Viconia chimes in and says:  "so.... I'm wondering your  thought are regarding marriage..."  LOL) 

 I get it -- from the perspective of a fan, why not add more? More is always the solution. I'm simply looking for alternate ways to achieve the goal of character development without needing to provide it through exposition and heaps of low-impact dialogue.

I don't think there IS an alternative.  There's really only one way to get to know someone:   And that's by  talking to them.  And the more they say, the more they reveal.  That's the way of the real world, and that's the way  of the virtual world.

If your opinion is you'd like to do it anyway, and that your preference is to be able to explore the thoughts and feelings of your party members whenever you'd like, that's fine. Feel free to say so. From a developer perspective, I'm simply going to look at it from different angles.

And what exactly is that's supposed to mean?   What other angles?

1) Not being able to explore the thoughts and feelings of your companions at all?  (lame... a clear step backwards)
2) Only being able to explore the thoughts and feelings of your  companions  at strictly appointed times and places?  (Unrealistic.  Illogical.   Do your best friends  talk to you   ONLY when you encounter something unique in the world?   No.  At least mine don't.  lol.   It would make much more sense to just keep the old system in place then  ADD new dialogue choices when encountering the clickable tree, or the dying man, or the stray cat)
3) Same system but less of it?  (that's fine.... but we'll call you lazy, and we'll call your game shallow)
4) Keep the old system and don't change it?  (Well, for now this seems to be the best solution.  I understand it may be too expensive to maintain... or rather... too expensive for YOU guys to maintain.  Or so you seem to be suggesting.... but  if you don't maintain it,  the time will come where some young, hungry gaming company  WILL... and they'll show you guys up....)

In my eyes dragon age was like the Failsafe method for baludrs gate 3. They just didnt want to ruin a perfect gold class game. As for characters they are a thousand times better overall in baldurs gate. You dont even have fat people + Rival churches. You have Spears, Halberds, slings and the list goes on and on.

No, i am affraid baldurs gate surpasses dragon age tenfold, and dragon age is hollow and brittle when you examine closer and closer.

[firl1979]

Eh dont agree with u on that thrall i've got the BG's series as well but love DAO better

[Azriel77]

Just want to add my 2 cents. I HATE the new system, the characters feel less "real" because they never want to talk when "I" do. I have to move around and HOPE that I will trigger an event or something so I can chat. I did not even know that I was supposed to click on other things besides the characters until near the end of the game when I "accidentally" clicked on the keg behind the oghren and actually got him to say something because he was ignoring me through the whole game. Same with most of the characters, I know I have missed out on a lot because of this new stupid system (seriously, its not intuitive at all). Also, what they did say was not very inspiring, they would say something and I would respond. We were not interacting or bonding, I was just listening to some small dialog, put in two throw away words and then forget about it. I LOVED the old system with the long laundry list of questions, I really got to know each of the characters and respond to form emotional bonds with them. These new characters were about as interesting as cardboard cutout. To put it in perspective, in DAO, after I learned about each character and bonded with them, I was emotionally invested in their well being, I worried about what was troubling each of them and wanted to help in any way I could. I would literally go from one end of the map to the other end to find a mirror for morrigan, or find stens sword, or any other quest. Why? because I KNEW about the characters from having LONG talks with them and know what type of person they are, everything from their past, to their dreams, to their hopes, fears, you actually got to KNOW them. With DAOA, that is gone, I felt very little about any of the members, I would here a sob story and that would be it. What? Something about your sister missing? um, why do I care? What? You don't feel like talking now...ok, sure, I will put finding your sister that I know NOTHING about, for a person I know NOTHING about on my top priority list. At first I actually went out of my way to help, but even when I did complete a quest, I still got the cold shoulder because they wanted to think alone or not be bothered right now (all the way up to the END of the game!). After a while I stopped completing companion quests and just focused on everything else. At the end of the game in DAOA, some companion characters died and I felt nothing for them. If this had been DAO characters I would have agonized over their lost and went back to try again until I saved everyone. DOAO characters? too much trouble and no emotional investment at all.

Bring back the old system, just have a message appear that says "x person wants to talk to you" when new dialog options appear for characters. That way, those who do not like going to the campsite to constantly check to see if new dialog is opened don't have to. I still think a campsite or place of rest is needed, having a place you can just stop and chill and bond with your companions is NICE, constantly running around doing quest after quest just leads to quick burnout. There needs to be a break between the action to smell the roses.

Modifié par Azriel77, 23 mars 2010 - 04:26 .

[TheMadCat]

that girl wrote...

LaughingDragon wrote...

If you guys can't afford to pay your writers why don't you try outsourcing some of the writing? There are thousands of talented writers who would gladly write content for your company for FREE for a chance to get some experience and a writing credit or just for fun.

I seriously read some bioware guy say writing is expensive. lol.

Love this idea. COUNT ME IN!

Not the writing that's expensive, I'm sure Gaider and his team are underpaid if anything. It's the voice acting that comes with said writting that takes a huge chunk of the development budget. Every word written is a $100 word spoken.

[Angela1027]

I agree with many others that  1) the DA:O conversation system's pacing was way too fast (could finish almost all the conversation strings for a companion even before finishing the first ally area), and  2)  that it felt unnatural to chat up companions at camp to get their approval even though they'd never run with you. 
The new system was great!  I got to find out some really interesting details about my companions, it happend in a really natural way, and the pacing was well executed (even though getting 100% approval for Anders was still waaay too easy).
Even halfway through the expansion, I was still digging the new system. 
But then I ran our ot conversation-trigger items, and conversation-trigger gifts, but I still wanted to know more about my companions, but I could not initiate conversations with them on my own.  In a way, not being able to initiate conversations can feel just as unnatural as having the complete freedom with the conversations as I allude to above. It also limits the subject matter of the conversations, somewhat, to the trigger that initiated it.  For instance, I want to know how Anders was brought to the Circle as a child, but there was no way of finding out because none of the triggers I found triggered that sort of conversation.  This limited/constrained interaction system along with the shallow knowledge I have of their opinions on certain topics (with perhaps the slight execption of Nathaniel--his conversations seemed richer than the others), made the game seem emptier and lonlier (not as lonely as a Bethesda game, but lonlier than DA:O).
But perhaps the shallowness of the interactions is merely a function of this system being implemented in a short expansion pack instead of a fully-fleshed game?    Maybe...but I'm with the camp that feels that there's a middle ground between the too-free and not-well-paced system of DA:O and the too-constrained and shallower system of DA:A.  Other's have mentioned a system where items might trigger conversations which could then open interactions the PC could initiate.  This lets the PC have conversations with only those companions they use, while also allowing future conversaions with that particular companion to have greater depth.  It would also still maintain the nice pace of the interactions found in DA:A.

This is a great game, and has now easily topped BG as my fave of all time.  Can't wait for 02.01.2011! 

[kingthrall]

firl1979 wrote...

Eh dont agree with u on that thrall i've got the BG's series as well but love DAO better

Baldurs gate is better becasue it has a more diverse city landscape compared to dragon age, everyone is the same wight in dragon age.

Baldurs gate had 100 times more funnier moments than that of dragon age. Remember the guy who throws an axe at your characters head randomly, or the fanatical cyric priest who attacks you. The unseeing eye cult and who could forget Tiax Rules.

There are 5 times more spells on Baldurs gate compared to dragon age. Nearly every spell is extremley useful, magic missile increases in missiles, chromatic orb petrifies in the later levels. You can not tell me that Rejuvination or that cone of flame spell does any useful healing or damage. they are totally unbalanced and Cone of Cold Rules the spellbook even with the patches.

The Npc of baldurs gate were less sophisticated due to technology, its 10 years older. To be fair dragon age should have an advantage over all these categories, the statistics of the spells are already in their hands there is no excuse.
Still the essence of emotion from the characters were just as strong. Minsc + boo, Xzar and Montaran and of course Khalid and Jaheria.

Baldurs gate has Intoxication, Beers and Inns to rest where Dragon age does not.

To top it all off, baldurs gate has a very origonal story compared to the Reskinned Lord of the Rings feel i get when i play dragon age.

[Cell1e]

Azriel77 wrote...

Just want to add my 2 cents. I HATE the new system, the characters feel less "real" because they never want to talk when "I" do. I have to move around and HOPE that I will trigger an event or something so I can chat. I did not even know that I was supposed to click on other things besides the characters until near the end of the game when I "accidentally" clicked on the keg behind the oghren and actually got him to say something because he was ignoring me through the whole game. Same with most of the characters, I know I have missed out on a lot because of this new stupid system (seriously, its not intuitive at all). Also, what they did say was not very inspiring, they would say something and I would respond. We were not interacting or bonding, I was just listening to some small dialog, put in two throw away words and then forget about it. I LOVED the old system with the long laundry list of questions, I really got to know each of the characters and respond to form emotional bonds with them. These new characters were about as interesting as cardboard cutout. To put it in perspective, in DAO, after I learned about each character and bonded with them, I was emotionally invested in their well being, I worried about what was troubling each of them and wanted to help in any way I could. I would literally go from one end of the map to the other end to find a mirror for morrigan, or find stens sword, or any other quest. Why? because I KNEW about the characters from having LONG talks with them and know what type of person they are, everything from their past, to their dreams, to their hopes, fears, you actually got to KNOW them. With DAOA, that is gone, I felt very little about any of the members, I would here a sob story and that would be it. What? Something about your sister missing? um, why do I care? What? You don't feel like talking now...ok, sure, I will put finding your sister that I know NOTHING about, for a person I know NOTHING about on my top priority list. At first I actually went out of my way to help, but even when I did complete a quest, I still got the cold shoulder because they wanted to think alone or not be bothered right now (all the way up to the END of the game!). After a while I stopped completing companion quests and just focused on everything else. At the end of the game in DAOA, some companion characters died and I felt nothing for them. If this had been DAO characters I would have agonized over their lost and went back to try again until I saved everyone. DOAO characters? too much trouble and no emotional investment at all.

Bring back the old system, just have a message appear that says "x person wants to talk to you" when new dialog options appear for characters. That way, those who do not like going to the campsite to constantly check to see if new dialog is opened don't have to. I still think a campsite or place of rest is needed, having a place you can just stop and chill and bond with your companions is NICE, constantly running around doing quest after quest just leads to quick burnout. There needs to be a break between the action to smell the roses.

I totally agree with this person, I just hated the new system.
Wow how rude to click on someone in my party to be told impatiently, 'shouldnt we be moving?' Or 'havent got time to talk!'
I love being able to stop and have a chat at any time, I loved being able to stop and give Alistair a kiss at any time despite his protests about 'public displays of affection' hehe!

This new way is like ..."don't speak unless you are spoken too!" JUST HORRIBLE!!!

Modifié par Cell1e, 23 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[Ignus Burns]

After having played Awakening and almost finished it, I must say that the new system is much better than the old one.
No more repeated dialogue destroying all immersion. No more having to start new conversations just to discover that there isn't anything new to say.

Modifié par Ignus Burns, 23 mars 2010 - 02:01 .

[Ibanez2009]

I liked the conversation system in Origins way better. Because I got to learn more about my companions. But I also liked the system in Awakening. Perhaps a mix between those 2 would be the right stuff.

[t3ej4y]

Tirigon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Excellent example!

The drawback might be viewed as you being unable to go around in camp and chat with every party member, regardless of whether you spend any time adventuring with them. I don't know that this is necessarily a drawback, however, as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. That and I think a system that doesn't make the player feel like they have to keep "checking in" with a character regularly to see if they have anything new to say is more natural -- saving their interactions for those times when what they have to say is more significant.

Though this is true I still miss the good old camp. What about having both? Dialogues at Landmarks for talks about the companion´s view on this particular thing, and a quiet talk at the camp about the past or some "off-topic" stuff (I loved Leliannas stories from Orlais, for example).

Yup I think that's a pretty good way to integrate the two conversation systems together. Another suggestion would be to allow dialogue with party members only after their approval has hit a certain level, for example only when they are 'warm' or 'friendly' to you. This way it'd seem even more realistic, as Velanna not wanting to talk to you when you first met is expected, but after she warms to you, you can always hit her up for a chat! :happy:

[Layn]

kingthrall wrote...

To top it all off, baldurs gate has a very origonal story compared to the Reskinned Lord of the Rings feel i get when i play dragon age.

I just don't see why people keep insisting that Dragon Age is a Lord of the Rings Rip-off... Those are completely different fantasy stories.

[filetemon]

I don't like this system because talking to companions in camp felt a lot more intimate and personal, besides having a conversational tree means learning a lot more about the companions even if that means learning meaningless and trivial facts about them, which is what gives them humanity, not all the talk has to be about the mission or the lore.



Also this new system gives you less chances to win approval and relies more heavily on gifts, which imho is not a good thing.



But as Gaider gave us a little hint about it, it's cheaper to develop and means less writing, so it all comes down to that I guess.



All it needed the old system to me to be perfect and to avoid the "click on me to see if I have anything to say-raise approval-repeat" was a yellow marker on the companion that tells you there's new dialogue. That's it.

[Ariella]

I dislike the new system, as I enjoyed being able to go to camp and converse with my companions at any point in the game. The tags are nice, but honestly, I'd prefer to see them integrated with the original system rather than what happened in Awakenings.