635 réponses à ce sujet

[Tuleron]

Ignus Burns wrote...

After having played Awakening and almost finished it, I must say that the new system is much better than the old one.
No more repeated dialogue destroying all immersion. No more having to start new conversations just to discover that there isn't anything new to say.

Is not only the chat with your party, is too with the npc on the entire world, before you could talk and learn from everyone, not only from your companions.

[Tuleron]

t3ej4y wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Excellent example!

The drawback might be viewed as you being unable to go around in camp and chat with every party member, regardless of whether you spend any time adventuring with them. I don't know that this is necessarily a drawback, however, as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. That and I think a system that doesn't make the player feel like they have to keep "checking in" with a character regularly to see if they have anything new to say is more natural -- saving their interactions for those times when what they have to say is more significant.

Though this is true I still miss the good old camp. What about having both? Dialogues at Landmarks for talks about the companion´s view on this particular thing, and a quiet talk at the camp about the past or some "off-topic" stuff (I loved Leliannas stories from Orlais, for example).

Yup I think that's a pretty good way to integrate the two conversation systems together. Another suggestion would be to allow dialogue with party members only after their approval has hit a certain level, for example only when they are 'warm' or 'friendly' to you. This way it'd seem even more realistic, as Velanna not wanting to talk to you when you first met is expected, but after she warms to you, you can always hit her up for a chat! :happy:

It's not a bad idea, but with this system the only way to get warm with your companions is give them gifts, and you can't give all the gifts to one or two companions.

Modifié par Tuleron, 23 mars 2010 - 06:52 .

[Giubba]

I add my support to an integrate solution between DA:O system and Awakening system.

[MutantSpleen]

I did not like the new system, you basically had to have the tab key held down all the time to not miss something. I think that it is really neat to be able to have little mini-dialogues in the world by clicking on things. However I would not make this the main form of NPC interaction. I enjoyed spending time conversing with followers at camp in Origins. That let me control the pace of the conversations and not worry about missing something out in the world.

[Forteg]

pivopivobeer wrote...

WRONG.. i totally disagree. The old system was way better because you could get to know your companions and i wouldn't think of it as a "chore" because it was interesting to get to know their unique personality and getting glued into the story. This is a key element of what made DA:O so great. Bioware, why change something in dragon age when it's got you so far?

I completely agree - couldnt have put it better myself

[Commander of the Grey]

The only thing I disliked about the conversations in Origins was not knowing if someone had something new to say. As much I loved hearing Sten call me 'Kadan' I got tired of having to click 'nevermind'. My friends would slap me in real life if I did that to them. XD I loved going to camp, however and even in Awakening the Vigil was like a camp so no problem with that either. It does kind of distress me though cuz I didn't know clicking on the picture behind Nathaniel was an option, so I guess I missed that bit.



But the 'nothing new to say' could be solved by an '!' couldn't it? And I also liked David's comment of having a companion say something (i.e Alistair making a remark when entering the Tower) that would let us know. Personally, I don't want more conversation. I think the amount in DAO was fine, it was just the not knowing that was bothersome.



I thought Anders was a great character and I wish I could have gotten to know him better. Now I understand is was just an expansion but it's still a 'What a shame' kind of thing. I think I said it before in a different thread but that should be taken as a compliment and not so much a gripe. When the writers (or whoever) develop a character and people feel this strongly about them that just speaks volumes of their awesomeness. I can think of many RPG characters that I could care less about and wish they hadn't been in the game. I can't say that about anyone in the DA universe so far.



I can't speak for anyone but myself but knowing how much I adore DAO, I am a bit worried about how conversations will be handled in the future but that's only because I liked it so very much. Change scares me but there will be people who gripe if it stays the same and those that gripe cuz it's different.



The story was awesome and the characters were deep and it allowed me to feel as if I knew them as real people. That's not an easy task by any means. Going out and slaughtering darkspawn and then turning to Wynne and having a 6 minute conversation was a nice change of pace and a good way to let the blood drip off of me until I was ready to go again. Lol.



I just don't want the people in charge to regret spoiling us in such a way. DAO was a wonderful expirience, a game that I can honestly say I'll remember for the rest of my life. I can't count how many friends I've used my 'persuade' skills on to make them go out and buy it. I won't let them borrow it cuz I'm scared it might get hurt. XD



Even if I'm scared of how things might change in the future, none of us had any say so over DAO to begin with and look how wonderfully it turned out. As for DA2 I hearby vote for Anders to either return or make an appearance just so I can have the option of petting Ser Pounce Alot.



I also think it would have been epic to watch the cat attack that ferret. .....Just sayin.....;p

[DJ0000]

Reading what David said earlier in the thread, I'm not particularly looking forward to the next installment if this is what the charecter system will be like.



I felt like in the main game you got the option to get to know people that you didn't get in awakening. I know very little about any of the poeple in Awakening.



Take Anders for example, I know he likes cats, hates templars, wants freedom. Beyond that, he's pretty void, little personality.



I could find out so much more about companions in the main game.



The argument that the camp situation made people feel obligated to go through a lengthy process of speaking to them is moot. You don't have to do it, few quests require you do so and they can be triggered with little conversation anyway, it's just your chance to learn more if you wish to.



Also, it gives you a feel of friendship, like you are hanging out with them. It's not the same as only speaking to them because you happen to walk past a certain tree.



For me the new system should be intergrated into the old system so you can choose when to speak to them and also find hotspots. This would be perfect.



imo, the hotspot system is a for people who care little about creating relationships and only want to go out and do the quests. This is perfectly acceptable but some people want more than that.

[Sarezar]

MutantSpleen wrote...

I did not like the new system, you basically had to have the tab key held down all the time to not miss something. I think that it is really neat to be able to have little mini-dialogues in the world by clicking on things. However I would not make this the main form of NPC interaction. I enjoyed spending time conversing with followers at camp in Origins. That let me control the pace of the conversations and not worry about missing something out in the world.

That was what I didn't enjoy as well.. holding down the TAB key all the time. All the time... Can it not be toggle on/off?

Also the fact that some of the characters get to +100 Approval as soon as you give them one gift ruined the whole feeling for me. There was no point in talking to them or trying to make them like you. A quick patch for this is necessary IMHO as it ruins the experience.

On the positive side, I believe the new system is a step towrads the right direction, but just needs to be balanced between the two. Yes, you should only be able to become better friends with those you party most. But why can you only party with 3 companions in the first place? 

[Brockololly]

Sarezar wrote...

On the positive side, I believe the new system is a step towrads the right direction, but just needs to be balanced between the two. Yes, you should only be able to become better friends with those you party most. But why can you only party with 3 companions in the first place? 

I have no issue with more dynamic conversations away from camp, but as for only becoming "friends" with those you take with along, I don't know.

In Origins I primarily ended up with Alistair, Morrigan and Leliana in my party almost all the time, so yeah if there was some kind of bonus for sticking with certain party members that would be cool. But I would hate it if you lost out on conversations or dialogue of you left a party member back at camp. Thats how I feel Awakening is like and it makes me end up not caring for the characters as much since you only get to know the ones you take with you.

There are some really good ideas in this thread, and I think MoSa09 had one way back where you basically give the characters you leave at camp some sort of task to do while you're out adventuring. That way maybe you could still have some sort of dynamic conversation with the party members even if you didn't bring them along.

Having had some time to reflect on Awakening and the dialogue system though, I guess I'll put it in Bioware terms: The characters seemed good and interesting but the dialogue system limited my ability to get to know them, so ultimately I was not "EMOTIONALLY ENGAGED"

[Faz432]

I think the main problem with this system is that you can hardly hear your party's banter while you're running around
( turning my speakers to 11 isn't a solution  ) and so I only picked up on chat events when I had 'tab' held down

I do think it is a better solution than the repetiative conversations in camp though,

Maybe in the next patch they could change the level of the party chat sound in realation to the enviroment sound.

I do realise that I could adjust the sound levels myself but I don't think it's 'realistic' to have Ogren talking louder

than a Dragon/Hurlock/Children screaming......

Modifié par Faz432, 25 mars 2010 - 12:44 .

[Jax Sparrow]

I thought the interaction with squidies was awesome as well. I was put off by it at first because I really dislike Zaeed but after the first couple actual conversations with them I started liking how it was more fluid. Less needless repetition as well.

While I liked the new NPCs like Mhair, Anders, and Velanna I hope that more of our old companions return in new adventures with our Warden.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 25 mars 2010 - 07:06 .

[DeadInHell]

I much preferred the old system. In DA you could pick and choose who and when you wanted to get to know. And I really liked having the camp to do that in. In Awakening it wasn't really up to me. If I wanted to have a conversation with a party member I just had to hold tab and be on the lookout for something click-able, then hope that the conversation was worth having and with a character I wanted to hear from. I really liked the control of the old system. If you didn't like a character, you didn't have to talk to them. If you did, you did. It was your decision to focus on whichever people you wanted to. Now it's all just events that happen to you, your companion approaches you when you come back to the keep, you get a conversation when you click on the right tree, etc. And it certainly doesn't help matters that your new party members have a good chance of bugging straight to +100 approval, totally destroying the whole system.

I just found it to be far less satisfying, personally. I really hope this isn't the direction they go with the sequel. It would just kill the whole interaction that made Dragon Age so compelling.

Dragon Age was not a broken game. I love that Bioware doesn't become complacent, and that they are always trying to push things farther and improve. But sometimes change for the sake of change doesn't get you anywhere. And Awakenings is just a step in the wrong direction in terms of character interaction.

[ModerateOsprey]

I am definitely in the hybrid approach faction here. I think different types of conversations are appropriate at different times and locations. Some need to be intimate one on one and others are fine 'in public'.

I also disagree with Mr Gaider's point:

David Gaider wrote...

The drawback might be viewed as you being unable to go around in camp and chat with every party member, regardless of whether you spend any time adventuring with them. I don't know that this is necessarily a drawback, however, as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. d

I often have characters that I like and want to build a relationship with them, but are not necessarily in my party. This is a game limit that is imposed on me. Sometimes, a conversation may lead me to include them in my party. This means, they are convincing me and this is how it should be. In both games there is a little bit of a feeling that you are constantly kowtowing. I want them to be actively hassling me to come along! Not me trying to sell it to them!

The little tutorial box that pops up when you first get a companion in DA: A is the same as DAO and this is confusing, it even mentions talking to them in camp.

Also holding tab down is not satisfactory, make it a toggle or provide better, more in-game hints that a companion is ready to talk - or both

I will always be happy to have more conversations with companions in as many ways as possible. This makes the game very deep and satisfying

Modifié par ModerateOsprey, 25 mars 2010 - 11:16 .

[Sidney]

I think both options should exist. I think getting to know people at some "basic" level in camp is reasonable. I have a basic knowledge of my co-workers just from the office. The people I really know well are the guys who travel on business with me. You'd like to have that same ability, I should be able to find out X level of details about folks in "camp" but anything above and beyond that should take place as I "work" with them.



I like the mechanism where things "trigger" conversations, that works very nicely and seems to add a better feeling of flow to the game but it seems like a limited amount of conversation happens. In the blackmarshes with Anders and Howe (I sent Ogren away rather by mistake) ther was IIRC 1 conversation spot.

[t3ej4y]

Tuleron wrote...

t3ej4y wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Excellent example!

The drawback might be viewed as you being unable to go around in camp and chat with every party member, regardless of whether you spend any time adventuring with them. I don't know that this is necessarily a drawback, however, as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. That and I think a system that doesn't make the player feel like they have to keep "checking in" with a character regularly to see if they have anything new to say is more natural -- saving their interactions for those times when what they have to say is more significant.

Though this is true I still miss the good old camp. What about having both? Dialogues at Landmarks for talks about the companion´s view on this particular thing, and a quiet talk at the camp about the past or some "off-topic" stuff (I loved Leliannas stories from Orlais, for example).

Yup I think that's a pretty good way to integrate the two conversation systems together. Another suggestion would be to allow dialogue with party members only after their approval has hit a certain level, for example only when they are 'warm' or 'friendly' to you. This way it'd seem even more realistic, as Velanna not wanting to talk to you when you first met is expected, but after she warms to you, you can always hit her up for a chat! :happy:

It's not a bad idea, but with this system the only way to get warm with your companions is give them gifts, and you can't give all the gifts to one or two companions.

Not true, your decisions in the game/stuff you say to npcs also affects your companions' approval ratings. This seems pretty good to me cos if you look at it from a real-life perspective, friends' impressions of you are also influenced by the way you act and treat other people, not just them. And after enough observation and they determine that they like you enough, they'll logically open up to you more, won't they.

[macrocarl]

Since we're throwing in opinions. here's mine.

I'd like a mix of DA:A and DA:O convos. Like incidental clicking on stuff from DA:A, more DA:O camp style for romance options (being shot down by Sten is only funny the 1st 100 times) plus a little 'round table' check in with the group after a big mission ala ME2.



DA:A for me was lots of yapping with folks. If I wasn't chatting up someone in the party I was bumping into other fully VO'd NPC's and getting the skinny on whatever. I think it's paced well. I'm not someone who will feel bad if I miss a side quest or a personal quest or some diologue. I just play and run into whatever happens. I guess I'm more into the taut overall feel to the pacing than knowing if someone's old master had a hang nail and whether it's time to sing to me about or violently dissagree about how pretty shoes are.

[tmp7704]

Having played the expansion... some feedback:

Tthe new conversation system is decent overall, with one exception -- seemingly complete inability to initiate a pending dialog with a companion until you go back to the keep/camp. In some situations this can be excused (both for technological reason of requiring certain stage setup for the scene and justified as the character 'pondering' over the issue and not ready to talk about it at the moment) ... but more often than not, for casual unstaged converstations which could really be done about anywhere it just feels artificial, limiting and makes it really obvious it's just very basic system in a computer game which is not good for the immersion. I'm talking here of situations where a companion reaches a point in approval which unlocks new conversation option.

While to a degree this was also present in the original DA, the issue was mitigated there by the camp being accessible literally a click away from most places in the world. In the Awakenings in order to get these unlocked conversations the player has to go all way back to the Keep and then cross the Keep itself to finally reach their quarters at which point the conversation hopefully happens. If it doesn't well damn, you just wasted some time running around. Mildly annoying.

Incidentally, this limitation also means the supposed isssue from the original game -- the player making rounds in the camp to check who has something new to say -- is still present (in the form of having to do the trek back to the camp purely to see the new conversations) and perhaps actually even more acute this way, since you can no longer deal with some new conversation topics while on the road while in the original game you could get some of your 'conversation laundry' done outside of the camp.


With that out of a way... a suggestion for the future game(s):

You might want to consider building upon arguably good feature of DA which is the companion banter, by allowing the player to join/react to these conversations with some sort of interrupt system. A small example what i mean:

(Nathaniel and Velanna have their banter.)

Nathaniel: "... And your ears look clownish."

* interrupt popup appears. If the player chooses to activate it, they get conversation options:

1. "That wasn't a nice thing to say."
2. "Damn straight they do."
3. if player is elf themselves: "Excuuuuse me? What was that last bit?"

* if the interrupt was actually triggered -- depending on picked option Nathaniel and Velanna approve/disapprove accordingly.

the idea is to use simple means like that to give player additional way to affect the approval system (with possibility of alienating companion(s) so not risk-free and as such sort of a gamble whether to trigger it) as well as give them a more frequent feel they have some meaningful interaction with their party. Anyway, just a thought.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 mars 2010 - 12:28 .

[bluewolv1970]

If they use the NEW conversation system going forward then none of future bioware games will have deep friendships or romances as the new system really does not allow for it as you do not iniatate conversations...even ME 2 had the ability to actually talk to characters as well as the location triggered cues

[dragon_83]

You might want to consider building upon arguably good feature of DA which is the companion banter, by allowing the player to join/react to these conversations with some sort of interrupt system. A small example what i mean:

(Nathaniel and Velanna have their banter.)

Nathaniel: "... And your ears look clownish."

* interrupt popup appears. If the player chooses to activate it, they get conversation options:

1. "That wasn't a nice thing to say."
2. "Damn straight they do."
3. if player is elf themselves: "Excuuuuse me? What was that last bit?"

* if the interrupt was actually triggered -- depending on picked option Nathaniel and Velanna approve/disapprove accordingly.

This is actually a very good idea. I would love to see this in the next game.

[DJ0000]

dragon_83 wrote...

You might want to consider building upon arguably good feature of DA which is the companion banter, by allowing the player to join/react to these conversations with some sort of interrupt system. A small example what i mean:

(Nathaniel and Velanna have their banter.)

Nathaniel: "... And your ears look clownish."

* interrupt popup appears. If the player chooses to activate it, they get conversation options:

1. "That wasn't a nice thing to say."
2. "Damn straight they do."
3. if player is elf themselves: "Excuuuuse me? What was that last bit?"

* if the interrupt was actually triggered -- depending on picked option Nathaniel and Velanna approve/disapprove accordingly.

This is actually a very good idea. I would love to see this in the next game.

I agree, that's a great idea. +10 approval

[Burningwolf]

New conversation system+selectable conversations in the field(or camp even) would be heaven.Thes random bits here and there,mostly tied to landscape just annoy the living daylights out of me.



My opinion is they took a good,working system that they were not perfectly happy with it and made it orders of magnatude worse.I mean,in awakenings,after I figured out how the conversation system was supposed to work...I quit caring about who they were and what they had to say and just started on getting the maps done.

[filetemon]

in my first playthrough of DAO I spent 20 hours on camp talking and giving gifts and maximizing approval and I loved it. So besides all, the old conversation system adds value to the game because it makes your playthrough longer, simple as that.

[macrocarl]

David Gaider wrote...



The drawback might be viewed as you being unable to go around in camp and chat with every party member, regardless of whether you spend any time adventuring with them. I don't know that this is necessarily a drawback, however, as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. d



^^ I don't agree with this. I played a relatively good human noble and if I brought Morrigan around with me I wouldn't have gotten to get all the dialog with her because she would have dissaproved with a lot of what I did. Which would mean I would've missed out on a super cool romance.

[Frumyfrenzy]

I like the new system and I think conversations in camps should take a moderate step back compared to Origins. However there is a far better way to get to know your companions without going to camps or interacting with objects in the world alone: More interaction of them and with them in dialogue cutscenes with other NPC. Your companions should be given more room to interfere in comversations throughout the world. That is how they show their personality, this should be the main focus (although I wouldn't abandon the other two options). At least it is my opinion

Modifié par Frumyfrenzy, 31 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[Zanderat]

David Gaider wrote...

I think it could use some refinement, and I imagine some people are going to mistake the volume of dialogue itself (in an expansion) for the system, but overall I think it's a better way to go.

PC initiated dialogue should be included, as well as triggers.  Having to click a tree or repeatedly re-entering camp to get new dialogue is bogus.