635 réponses à ce sujet

[Pinkleaf]

I really loved the conversations around the camp fire.  Take those away and the game starts to head towards being just another two penny game.

Modifié par Pinkleaf, 17 mars 2010 - 06:07 .

[Feraele]

Default137 wrote...

Just wanted to say this to Bioware, in the hopes they keep with it, and keep making it better,

I've always hated going back to my camp after missions, because it means I would have to get some popcorn, and set myself up for 30-45 minutes of talking to people to make them like me, even if I could care less about them. And in many cases it just felt like a really odd system, that was more of a chore then an actual fun thing to do.

This new conversation system is great, it allows me to ignore the childhood of everyone, and actually learn about them as a character, and it never feels like a chore, in fact I often get a childlike glee seeing a new person that wans't standing there before, or finding an object near them that has the clickable mark over it, because it means I'm going to learn something about the world, and how at least one of my characters view it.

Keep up the good work Bioware, this is a great game!

I am not finding any problems with this new system..although at first I thought I might not like it...so far it hasn't caused me any concern, but I am still adapting to Awakening.    Its all new and shiney right now, so we'll see how I feel about it as I run the rest of my characters through..(eight so far will have more hehehe)

The ONLY thing and I consider it pretty minor, and probably fixed with the next upcoming patch..is the blood abilities.   But..you know..I am starting to realize with all the new runes, new abilities..the blood abiliities..are kind of in the background for me now.

I am in explore mode currently..didn't pick up alot of the quests at the keep, ..picked up a few, but I got itchy feet..had to run down to Amaranthine to explore there....so far I don't have any complaints.

[TheMadCat]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah I get that, I'm not expecting the volume of character development or dialogue that we had in DAO but from everything I've read from Mr. Gaider, it seems like they wanted to tweak the dialogue system in this fashion expansion or not- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gaider

That is indeed so.

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

I haven't played Awakening so not going to comment on that, but I'm curious. Why couldn't you simply script in a flag to pop over a characters heads or something else to alert the player when new dialogue opened up in Origins? That would have taken care of the player constantly checking to see if a companion had new dialogue options and it's not something difficult to implement, once the varibles are met to open the next set of dialogue have a script run that displays or sounds an alert. Is there something in the laundry list style that prevents this because that would seem like it would solve your biggest problem without needing to go through and rehaul the system.

[DragonNe0Reborn]

I haven't gotten the chance to play Awakening yet (I'll get it tomorrow), but from what I hear the new system sounds much better. While I loved Origins, I personally hated the dialogue and codex systems.



Maybe they could be integrated together? If there were a "thoughts" menu, where you can see things about your party your character remembers seeing, and then ask them about it?



What if you could interact with the thought menu? For example, after meeting a party character you could tell your thoughts menu you are attracted to them and then romance dialogue/situations with that character would open up. Maybe you could also specify other things you're interested in, and it would emphasize information about those topics as you come along them?

[silksieve]

 That and I think a system that doesn't make the player feel like they have to keep "checking in" with a character regularly to see if they have anything new to say is more natural -- saving their interactions for those times when what they have to say is more significant.

To be fair, though, even in RL, don't you go around checking to see how your friends or co-workers are doing?  "Hey, how was your weekend?" "What did you think of last night's episode of Lost?" etc.

[Brockololly]

silksieve wrote...

 That and I think a system that doesn't make the player feel like they have to keep "checking in" with a character regularly to see if they have anything new to say is more natural -- saving their interactions for those times when what they have to say is more significant.

To be fair, though, even in RL, don't you go around checking to see how your friends or co-workers are doing?  "Hey, how was your weekend?" "What did you think of last night's episode of Lost?" etc.

Exactly! I mean maybe the new system is easier on the writers and easier budget wise, but IMO it feels less natural overall than what we had in Origins. Thats not to say that Origins' system was perfect but as of now in my Awakening playthrough I prefer the Origins style.

[Beaner28]

I like the new system as well.



Let's face it, by your second play through the party camp conversations aren't fun anymore and seem more like a chore than something you want to do. I sat through it to build their approval ratings because it's important but it did get rather boring after a while.

[jaseDarienDakota]

With the new system I keep feeling like I'm missing important conversation chances. What if I didn't notice an environment conversation piece and it was important to gain favor with that character?

I don't really understand why you wouldn't want to get to know all your companions and not just the ones you group with. Through-out Origins I would take different people on different missions depending on what skills I felt I might need or who I thought might have something good to contribute. Like taking Alistair, a former Templar through the Mage tower.

I have to agree that seeing things in the environment that act like conversation pieces is a natural way to help to get to know a person, but I think the best ways to get to know someone is to sit down and talk to them and ask them about things.

I'm with the folk who feel that some happy medium between the two systems would work the best. I never had a problem with wasting time waiting for new dialog in Origins. You do a mission, rest at the camp, see if anyone has anything new to say and then move on. I'd end up at camp anyway to see if any of the items I picked up on the last mission were upgrades for party members.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

Modifié par jaseDarienDakota, 17 mars 2010 - 06:50 .

[wwwwwasd]

i think the point is they dont want you "checking in" on companions to see if they have new stuff to say. they just want it to happen candidly while you're exploring or something, so it never feels like a chore to get to know your companions better.

[Rocket_Propelled_Grenade]

I kind of miss the old camp, but I can't say I think its absence is hurting my allotment of development and richness!

[ShaeTora]

Grimgor79 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

That is indeed so.

For those that are suggesting a "best of both worlds" that would include both the directed dialogues outside of camp as well as being able to click on followers and ask a bunch of questions -- you're missing the point. That would, once again, encourage the player to keep returning to the follower to check to see if they have any new dialogue options available.

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

 In reference to the bolded part, Mr. Gaider.

   You see, I think that is the point here. Taking a "break" from the game action to just chum around with your companions is very refreshing. I find that in games where I just have to keep my head down the whole time working toward the goal it can get somewhat repetetive. In Origins whenever I feel even a little like this I just hop on over to camp, change out a few members gear, speak to anyone I havent had a good chat with in a while and before you know it I'm revitalized and ready to go kill some more darkspawn.

I haven't played Awakenings yet so wont comment on the new system, But just wanted to add I agree with what Grimgor has said, and found myself doing the same thing. Timeout in the Camp is a great thing!

[elearon1]

I was pretty uncertain about the new conversation system, but all in all I like it. I do miss being able to approach people and initiate conversations about their lives, but it is nice when they actually step in and begin a conversation themselves. The point of interest effect used to spawn a conversation is used better here than it was in ME2 - so whomever was responsible for polishing that up, good job.

It does seem like you are missing out on the long, interesting and probing conversations you could have in camp with the first game - which is unfortunate if you're interested in someone and want to learn more - but likewise you don't have to wade through the a great deal of the same content in order to prompt a new response or pursue one you missed before ...

I would say a nice medium between these two systems would be best. Keep the points of interest and npcs initiating conversation, but perhaps after you get a love interest character's approval to a certain point the game could open up some broader conversation options ... something to that effect ...

Modifié par elearon1, 17 mars 2010 - 08:04 .

[Feraele]

To be honest before I played Awakening..I really doubted I would like this new system..but I think it really is less unwieldy, less time consuming. I think we have more freedom, moving around..and having conversations that seem to occur spontaneously instead of, return to camp, run around the campfire, talk to everyone, hand out gifts, armor. hehehe



So ..I'm a convert..I'll even go so far as to say I like it.

[Massadonious1]

Well, I like it for the simple fact that it allows you to get to know people at a "normal" rate.



Not that I don't mind the way Origins did it, but really, I don't think Morrigan is the kind of gal that you should be able bed as quickly you are able to post-Lothering. Not to mention, the pacing of the conversations can get thrown off. I generally put off getting Wynne until the next to the last main plot quest (usually Paragon of Her Kind) and after cycling through a few conversations with her, she comments on my current romantic partner like she's been watching us from the beginning.

[EccentricSage]

(Disclaimer: I've not yet played Awakening... am still looking into weather or not it's worth $40 to me... I don't have a lot of money. But I came here to find out more about it, and about the change to the dialogue system, since it sounds like something that might be used for the next full game.)

This new system DOES sound like it would add more realism to the game. Though I think the 'campfire dialogue' that the PC initiates has an important place and is natural, too. In real life, when I'm at work or hanging out with friends, if we are doing something or are walking somewhere, random objects and events we encounter would spark conversations we might not otherwise have had. It's good to see that brought into a game. There were many times in Origins that I wanted to ask characters about their reactions to things, or sit down and have a drink at a pub complete with a little pub related banter... Oh, how I wanted to buy Zevran a flagon of Black Ale after how excited he sounded about it when we entered the Dwarven pub!

However, sometimes you really do just turn to a person and simply initiate a conversation, because you had a question or because something came up the previous day that you want to talk about now. This is what the dialogue was like in Origins, and it did feel very personal and real, as well. I would be sad to see this no longer available in the next game. It was an important part of developing different relationships with each party member. I also hope that in the next full DA game, that romance will be back. Of course if you're traveling with people, and your life in often in danger, you're going to want to bed someone, and are going to be fast to form a bond with someone who is there for you. The role playing experience in Origins is all the more realistic for having the option.

I really think it would be optimum if we get a bit of both in the next game. I'd hate to have to loose one form of interaction to gain another, since both are true to real life human interaction.  To help pace the dialogue in a realistic way so I can't rush through it and run out, I think the camp dialogue options could be updated after each signifigant quest, or other milestones...it would be fine if some of it were made to seem spontanious... not actually related to what triggered it, just some random chit chat.  I think if the dialogue options were not only influenced by aproval levels and the nature of relationships, but also triggered by these sort of earmarks in the overall plot advancement, it would force dialogues to become available at a more even pace.  Though I think the standard starter dialogues where you ask questions about the person's past or initiate an exchange of background stories was fine in Origins.  There are some things that people don't mind chatting about right away.  But deaper dialogue should be paced from there out.  If I'm not making any sence, let me know... and I'll try to rephrase... (it's late, and I need to sleep soon.)

What would take things to a whole new level would be if your companions had conversations with each other, or confrontations over events, and we could ether let it play out, or interject and become part of shaping the outcome of the conversation. That's something a good leader would do in real life... interject and moderate conflicts. And if you aren't playing a leading character who tries to get everyone to get along, then you could choose sides, and reap benefits with the characters you side with, and consequences for pissing off other characters in the process. This would make dialogue points or camp REALLY interesting and more than just a fun diversion... though the random quirky banters are something I love well enough on their own. The banters in Origins were pretty epic! XD


Mind you, I DO understand that you guys have a budget and time frame to work within, so I don't exactly expect you to fulfill my every dream. lol But it's fun to hear about what is possible and talk about our dreams and wishes.

I did find the overall dialogue trees for most of the characters in Origins very fulfilling so far (haven't gone through all the content yet... not even close!) I love the depth of Zevran most of all, and his absence in Awakenings is one of the reasons I'm not so quick to buy it full price. Rest assured, if something new comes out with him in it, I'd buy it. I thought his dialogues in Origins were really nuanced. How my character approached him and what dialogue responses I'd choose could lead to multiple different role play narratives that really helped flesh out each PC's story in a different way. Alistair and Wynne are also really great in this way... one PC might consider Al whiney and childish, another sees him as a surrogate brother, another as the first human male to treet her as an equal and a friend... With Wynne, my Dalish sees her first as a surrogate 'clan elder', but then grows disillusioned with her, another might see her as a grandmotherly figure, and a blood mage... well... things get real interesting then...

Well, anyhow... point I am trying to get to is that I hope, whatever you do, that the depth and sense of individual and unique experience from PC to PC will remain. I hope we never loose the incredible variety and hidden depths that the dialogue trees from Origins had, no matter what dialogue systems we end up with. For me, this is what made the game. When I got board with the deep roads, it's the promise of progress with storyline, new experiences with the NPCs in my party, and new dialogues when we get to the Landsmeet that make me want to see the quests through. I hope BioWare never looses sight of this. (and I hope there will be more of the companions from Origins in future content! I feel like Origins only was an introduction to them... there's so much more I want to know about them and experience with them, because they are interesting, well written, and really found a place in my heart. )

Modifié par EccentricSage, 17 mars 2010 - 09:21 .

[Giubba]

LenaMarie wrote...

I think some people should put it in perspective. Sure you can chat with your friends when your at the mall or something, but comfortable surroundings like someones house or hangout is more realistic way to get to know someone on a deeper level. You wouldn't 'believe' someone telling you all about their life in the middle of a crowded mall or in Reference to the game a Crowded Marketplace.

It'd be much more believable to have those deep chats with someone in a more quiet and relaxed setting. Thats mostly why I believe perhaps theres a place for both styles. Casual Conversations out in the world, but deeper more meaningful conversations back at your Base. That seems more immersive and realistic to me.

Agree, i cannot understand why when a new system is introduced it must always replace a previous one and not concur with it.

[Default137]

Well, if we are trying to make it so we don't feel like checking back in with everyone constantly to learn about them...

Hmm, the current method is a start, but as some people said, what if you miss something huge, and don't learn about them through it, perhaps have them start the conversations when walking near things, rather then have us initiate, that would solve that problem. Although I suppose this would add a totally new problem though wouldn't it, as then people would start complaining they are forced to learn about their companions, and can't talk to them when they want to talk to them.

Another possible thing to expand on is the camp diversion kind of thing, when you head back to camp and you randomly get talked to by someone, I thought that was pretty nifty, and it means we are not just going up to people and talking to them, they are talking to us more, examples would be Sten's "You cannot be a woman" speech, or really well, many of Stens talks where he just walks over and talks to you when you get back to camp. This would be kind of hard to do in games with 12 characters, but with a smaller cast, they shouldn't overlap much.

I suppose you could also put more emphasis on plot gifts, although you'd have to add more ways for us to notice what gifts go to whom, that way, rather then just going to them to go through the wheel of fun, we could rather give them lets say, some gloves, or some boots, and then have them talk about their experiences regarding those items in the camp, as long as you pay attention and listen, could also put a huge approval rating gain with this, to help boost the scores of those who stay in camp often. To make some sense out of it, why would you know anything about the guy who sits in camp all day, you could make it so that your current companions talk about stuff you get that goes in this category, lets use the Kitten as an example, you pick it up with Oghren, Howe, and Sigrun in your party, and one of them will mention hearing Anders talk about cats, so your character knows who likes cats, and can learn more about why they like cats.

I know this sounds bad, especially as more options are always good and that sort of thing, but I honestly do not want to go back to even half the old system, unless I can still learn about them in other ways, I HATED going to camp and having to talk to someone for 10-30 minutes, because it always felt like I was listening to someone read a book to me,

PC "So Alistair tell me about your time in the Templars"

Alistair *gives nearly word for word what the Codex says about Templars*

PC "WOW THAT MUST OF BEEN HARD ON YOU"

Alistair Approves +10.

Bleck.

Modifié par Default137, 17 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[NeoEsprit]

Am I the only one thinking that this "new" dialog system looks like the one used in Baldur's Gate many years ago ? Sure it's way better than this but for what I've read so far it make me think of that... come on ! you walk along the way then suddenly on of ur party member start saying something then you can interact with him/her ?... sounds familiar =p

[MelodicCure]

I like the dialogue systems. It does remind me of BG.

[_- Songlian -]

 

David Gaider wrote..

[...] as I think you *should* only be building friendships with the characters in your active party. 

I'm from Europe, hence I haven't played Awakening yet, but I just wanted to say that I've been more or less supportive of the new dialogue system ever since I heard of it, mainly for the exact same reason stated by Mr. Gaider above. 

In all honesty, I am now more curious to see  the new dialogue system for myself, than I am of the entire storyline in Awakening. 

Modifié par - Songlian -, 17 mars 2010 - 10:11 .

[EccentricSage]

I think it would also help if the PC had origin specific dialogue options that were more than, in the Dalish play for instance 'What do you think of the Dalish' 'my mother died when I was very young'. Even with dialogues that have nothing to do with our origins, having short, emotionless one liners when the NPC has an entire story to tell you DID make the campfire conversations feel very one-sided.



The worst for me was Lelliana. The further along I got with her friendship, the harder it was for me to find dialogue options I felt represented my character's perspective at all. I often found myself ether nodding politely at the girl via some very neutral and meaningless response, or having to choose a very out of character rude response. So there were definitely areas of dialogue that felt empty, unrealistic, and tiresome. But I don't think they accounted for that much time. I think I wasted far more time running lost in a forest and backtracking to finish sidequests than talking to even my least favorite NPC, whom I saw through to the dialogue after her personal quest.



As for why we would talk to people who we don't take out of camp much... Really, I think I want to know the people who are cooking my food!!! Thank the gods the Maker didn't tell Leliana to poison anybody! (she creeps me out, man!)

[TheComfyCat]

I was also worried that I might not like the new dialogue system, however I've actually found it to work quite well so far.

It seemed like you could progress too quickly through the dialogue in DA:O, whereas it feels like you're able to get to know the characters more naturally in Awakening. You still get conversations that let you find out more about the characters... they're just initiated differently. I don't particularly miss having to run through those long lists of dialogue with characters in camp (e.g. Alistair's wall of text about the Wardens... or Morrigan's time in the Wilds... or any conversation with Wynne...). You still get some new dialogue/ interesting situations when you return to the Keep, which is definitely a good break after questing.

I think the more fluid dialogue system makes the game more replayable... I did like all the text options the first time through DA:O, but after the third or fourth run through, it seems more like a chore (except for all the Zevran dialogues, of course. Those never get old )

In Awakening, it also seems like your active party interjects with their own opinions quite a bit during your conversations with NPCs, which was one of my favorite ways to get to know companions in DA:O as well.

The only time I think it's actually necessary to initiate dialogue in a more DA:O-style is with a romance companion... which, of course, is irrelevant for Awakening anyway.

EDIT: It's also nice to not accidentally initiate conversations at inopportune moments as well...... Like accidentally clicking on Alistair while trying to loot, and starting the Alistair's rose convo when you're both covered in blood and in the middle of killing abominations or whatever.

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 17 mars 2010 - 10:08 .

[Dragon Age1103]

abadomen wrote...

Why couldn't you ignore people in the camp? I rarely talked to the characters I disliked...only talked to those I liked.

It was a choice..added to the roleplaying aspect...I haven't played Awakening yet...but that sounds like something I may dislike.

From what I'm hearing sounds more like Mass Effect 2...

 yeah, sadly they completely destroyed it for the most part just like the terribel system in ME2. They do a MUCH better job than ME2 of your companions talking on missions but you lose the close connections of Origins since u can only talk to companions at the keep when u click on rnadom objects. It really is a terrible system & I hope they don't make the next DA installment anything like it. ME2 was a complete failure in that aspect since your companions rarely talked on missions making them feel distant & they never felt like they were on the mission with you. Sadly Awkening is the same way but with the improvement of random banter much much more often while questing than in ME2.
   Hate to see such a legendary game go down hill.

[galesong1234]

I must have missed the flags because I haven't been able to talk to anyone since the first initial meeting.



I hate the new dialogue. I don't know crap about them. Bioware could at least give us a chance to talk more to them at base.



No, they stand around like idiots.



Very, very sad indeed.

[EccentricSage]

Did I misunderstand?



So, in Awakenings, do you get random conversation coming up in public places when you are out exploring, or is it all religated to objects at their base, which I would figure equates to a much more luxurious alternative to camp?