126 réponses à ce sujet

[Bratt1204]

Wishpig wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...
Who is deciding that improvement is even needed

We do.

Origins is one the best RPGs out there; most everyone just loves the game, in an almost insane way. I do not see this love with Awakening, quite the contrary. Almost all of these posts are from people who are so disappointed because the expansion in no way compliments DA:O.

Hate to break it to you, but right after DA:O came out if you came anywhere near the forums you would have thought it must be the worst game in existence. This is pretty typical after any game gets released (or it is for us, perhaps, I don't hang around on other companies' forums very much) -- RPG fans are pretty passionate about what they like and don't like, and the ones that don't like tend to post again and again and again and again. Why? That's for a Psychology major to explore, I suppose.

It would be easy to assume that those posting on this forum represent the majority. That, however, simply isn't true. If you spend enough time on the forums, however, it's easy to believe that it must be. It's all the evidence you're exposed to, after all. But if you honestly believe that, you're only fooling yourself.

Let the reviews and sales speak for themselves.

Indeed. Sage advice.

BTW- That was a rhetorical question.

The reviews I read prior to purchasing DA:O were VERY positive, that's why I decided to buy it and I was not disappointed by any means.

What I just cannot fathom is, how the gaming industry can have such a pompous attitude toward their market base and continue to be profitable? I just cannot believe how you respond to your customers when they have complaints about the products they purchase. Having the "If you don't like it, too bad - just don't buy it" or " We're taking the romance and story-lines you loved so much (and produced such great sales for us) out of the games, just get over it" attitude is just unacceptable. I have never seen a corporation take this sort of complacent approach towards its customers. I could only image if I were out shopping for a vehicle and I complained about a missing feature and was told by the salesperson "We don't have that feature on the car anymore, we decided it wasn't necessary any loner (even though it was the most popular feature on the car), you just need to get over it". I would expect that sales person to be looking for another job and I would be looking elsewhere for a car with features I loved and found necessary. 

Somebody picked an approriate username <_<

I'm glad the devs realise that you can only take these forums with a grain of salt. ME, ME2, DA:O... I was around the forums of the games post-release, and honestly, awakening is getting FAR less hate then any of those did, although honestly I suspect this was because people weren't convinced it was gonna be good. So by setting their expectations low they weren't disapointed.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the good feedback this has gotten, DA:O and ME2 got FAR more hate upon release, as soon as I beat Chaos Rising and GoW3, I'm replaying DA:O vanilla and then starting up Awakening... I really really wish I could start playing it right now!

So pleased you approve 

Modifié par Bratt1204, 17 mars 2010 - 04:39 .

[Bibdy]

Nerd rage at its finest.



Grow up. The world doesn't revolve around you and throwing around statements like

Origins is one the best RPGs out there; most everyone just loves the game, in an almost insane way. I do not see this love with Awakening, quite the contrary. Almost all of these posts are from people who are so disappointed because the expansion in no way compliments DA:O.

And being told that the forums doesn't depict majority opinion, isn't him attacking you and completely disregarding your opinion. He's making a statement of fact and you're just blowing it out of proportion.

[ankuu]

i looove it! i think the quests are a little too short, for so much running around (i ran around amaranthine like nuts to find houses and such). I think it does compliment DA, but it's shooort.

[Bratt1204]

Bibdy wrote...

Nerd rage at its finest.

Grow up. The world doesn't revolve around you and throwing around statements like

Origins is one the best RPGs out there; most everyone just loves the game, in an almost insane way. I do not see this love with Awakening, quite the contrary. Almost all of these posts are from people who are so disappointed because the expansion in no way compliments DA:O.

And being told that the forums doesn't depict majority opinion, isn't him attacking you and completely disregarding your opinion. He's making a statement of fact and you're just blowing it out of proportion.

There is no rage. I am freely and calmly expressing my opinion and stating what my expectations are as a consumer.

[PSUHammer]

sumdood wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
RPG fans are pretty passionate about what they like and don't like, and the ones that don't like tend to post again and again and again and again. Why? That's for a Psychology major to explore, I suppose.

It's because those that enjoy it are too busy playing the game to post on forums.

This is VERY true.  And probably only 5 to 10% of actuall game owners/players even post in forums.  I have some friends who are gamers and think it is a waste of energy to ever post in one.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wishpig wrote...
Somebody picked an approriate username <_<

I'm glad the devs realise that you can only take these forums with a grain of salt. ME, ME2, DA:O... I was around the forums of the games post-release, and honestly, awakening is getting FAR less hate then any of those did, although honestly I suspect this was because people weren't convinced it was gonna be good. So by setting their expectations low they weren't disapointed.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the good feedback this has gotten, DA:O and ME2 got FAR more hate upon release, as soon as I beat Chaos Rising and GoW3, I'm replaying DA:O vanilla and then starting up Awakening... I really really wish I could start playing it right now!

Bratt get off this thread, it's a thread complimenting the game, there are threads that bash the game go post on one of those. Let those who enjoy it have someplace to talk positive about it.

That doens't mean the forums are to be ignored. I loved the expansion and I absolutely do not regret buying it. But I would prefer if the Origins dialogue system woudl return, with improvements from the Awakenign system. It's good as an addition, but not a replacement.

Ignoring forums can lead to crap. Want an example? Command and Conquer 4.
I don't know where they got the idea that  everything that defined the franchise had to go. The forums were in uproar, got ignored of course (with the typical arrogant interviews claimign thatthey know what fans want). And ultimately, it turned out to be a mediocre game (and a piece of crap to CnC fans).

My point is. Improving and providing change is good. But replacing something that isn't broken is unwise. I respect Blizzard's approach to not change the basics of Starcraft. Why did it not? Because the fans didn't want change.

The Awakening system on its own wouldn't work in a full sequel. It can't accomodate romances. It cannot create deep immersion with our companions. It cannot provide very deep character development (it doesn't have to be relevent to the main plot, but it's relevent to the character).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2010 - 04:49 .

[PSUHammer]

Bratt1204 wrote...
So who will refund my full purchase price on opened used software if I am not pleased with it?

Ebay does a pretty good job for me when I want to resell a game I don't like.  Or, you could play on consoles and just rent.

You have options.

[Bratt1204]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
Somebody picked an approriate username <_<

I'm glad the devs realise that you can only take these forums with a grain of salt. ME, ME2, DA:O... I was around the forums of the games post-release, and honestly, awakening is getting FAR less hate then any of those did, although honestly I suspect this was because people weren't convinced it was gonna be good. So by setting their expectations low they weren't disapointed.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the good feedback this has gotten, DA:O and ME2 got FAR more hate upon release, as soon as I beat Chaos Rising and GoW3, I'm replaying DA:O vanilla and then starting up Awakening... I really really wish I could start playing it right now!

Bratt get off this thread, it's a thread complimenting the game, there are threads that bash the game go post on one of those. Let those who enjoy it have someplace to talk positive about it.

That doens't mean the forums are to be ignored. I loved the expansion and I absolutely do not regret buying it. But I would prefer if the Origins dialogue system woudl return, with improvements from the Awakenign system. It's good as an addition, but not a replacement.

Ignoring forums can lead to crap. Want an example? Command and Conquer 4.
I don't know where they got the idea that  everything that defined the franchise had to go. The forums were in uproar, got ignored of course (with the typical arrogant interviews claimign thatthey know what fans want). And ultimately, it turned out to be a mediocre game (and a piece of crap to CnC fans).

My point is. Improving and providing change is good. But replacing something that isn't broken is unwise. I respect Blizzard's approach to not change the basics of Starcraft. Why did it not? Because the fans didn't want change.

The Awakening system on its own wouldn't work in a full sequel. It can't accomodate romances. It cannot create deep immersion with our companions. It cannot provide very deep character development (it doesn't have to be relevent to the main plot, but it's relevent to the character).

Exactly what I have been saying.

[Bratt1204]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...
So who will refund my full purchase price on opened used software if I am not pleased with it?

Ebay does a pretty good job for me when I want to resell a game I don't like.  Or, you could play on consoles and just rent.

You have options.

And you get your full purchase price refunded, do you? You seem to have all the clever answers. 

Modifié par Bratt1204, 17 mars 2010 - 04:53 .

[PSUHammer]

Wishpig wrote...
Somebody picked an approriate username <_<

I'm glad the devs realise that you can only take these forums with a grain of salt. ME, ME2, DA:O... I was around the forums of the games post-release, and honestly, awakening is getting FAR less hate then any of those did, although honestly I suspect this was because people weren't convinced it was gonna be good. So by setting their expectations low they weren't disapointed.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the good feedback this has gotten, DA:O and ME2 got FAR more hate upon release, as soon as I beat Chaos Rising and GoW3, I'm replaying DA:O vanilla and then starting up Awakening... I really really wish I could start playing it right now!

Bratt get off this thread, it's a thread complimenting the game, there are threads that bash the game go post on one of those. Let those who enjoy it have someplace to talk positive about it.

Unfortunatley, she has been condescending and disrespectful in most of her posts and especially when someone disagrees with her.  Yet, she is quick to call people disrespecful or insinuate they are less intelligent then her.  Pot meet kettle...

THIS happens in every forum out there.

[searanox]

I haven't played too much of Awakening so far, but I have been pleasantly surprised so far. The length might be a bit suspect, but if it *feels* like a complete game then I don't really care if it's 30 hours or 60 hours - good writing will take care of that, and already Awakening seems to have plenty of it.



While it seems like some of the production values aren't quite as high (slightly fewer NPCs to talk to, cutscenes feel like not quite as much effort was put into them), I have to say that the design of the environments has really improved. Dragon Age was a great-looking game within its technical limitations, but I feel like with Awakening, BioWare have become masters of the tools they have and have really pushed their art direction another notch higher... the amount of detail in some places is just immense, and locations feel more lived in, more organic and less functional and "gamey".



Of course, since I'm only a couple of hours in, I can't really comment on the larger story arc, quality of the quests, major bugs, etc., but what's here - character and environment design, dialogue quality, new skills and talents - is all gold.

[Papahet31]

Bratt1204 wrote...

UnPlayer88 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...
Who is deciding that improvement is even needed

We do.

Origins is one the best RPGs out there; most everyone just loves the game, in an almost insane way. I do not see this love with Awakening, quite the contrary. Almost all of these posts are from people who are so disappointed because the expansion in no way compliments DA:O.

Hate to break it to you, but right after DA:O came out if you came anywhere near the forums you would have thought it must be the worst game in existence. This is pretty typical after any game gets released (or it is for us, perhaps, I don't hang around on other companies' forums very much) -- RPG fans are pretty passionate about what they like and don't like, and the ones that don't like tend to post again and again and again and again. Why? That's for a Psychology major to explore, I suppose.

It would be easy to assume that those posting on this forum represent the majority. That, however, simply isn't true. If you spend enough time on the forums, however, it's easy to believe that it must be. It's all the evidence you're exposed to, after all. But if you honestly believe that, you're only fooling yourself.

Let the reviews and sales speak for themselves.

Indeed. Sage advice.

BTW- That was a rhetorical question.

The reviews I read prior to purchasing DA:O were VERY positive, that's why I decided to buy it and I was not disappointed by any means.

What I just cannot fathom is, how the gaming industry can have such a pompous attitude toward their market base and continue to be profitable? I just cannot believe how you respond to your customers when they have complaints about the products they purchase. Having the "If you don't like it, too bad - just don't buy it" or " We're taking the romance and story-lines you loved so much (and produced such great sales for us) out of the games, just get over it" attitude is just unacceptable. I have never seen a corporation take this sort of complacent approach towards its customers. I could only image if I were out shopping for a vehicle and I complained about a missing feature and was told by the salesperson "We don't have that feature on the car anymore, we decided it wasn't necessary any loner (even though it was the most popular feature on the car), you just need to get over it". I would expect that sales person to be looking for another job and I would be looking elsewhere for a car with features I loved and found necessary. 

Bioware has not had an attitude towards customers.  In fact, I think they've been very nice considering all the disrespect that is flung at them on these message boards.  Having played Awakening and been a huge fan of Origins, I can tell you that Awakening lives up to Origins' expectations.  Now that the game is out, no one has an excuse to make baseless and hateful accusations without having played the game.  You say to let the sales and reviews speak for the game; I saw let the game speak for itself.   

Btw, can't we all be friends?

So who will refund my full purchase price on opened used software if I am not pleased with it?

Nobody will...just like nobody forced you to buy it. You will just be unhappy despite any calm, rational arguement. You are entitled to your opinion.

[Azraea]

My thoughts since I just finished...not bad...had its funny moments, had a lot of good action...however...I liked the romance parts in the original, also for 43$ it was to short..finished in one night (and I did just about every side quest.). The ending was kind of anti-climactic for me...it also gave the feel that it was just done..over..I don't want to give it away, but the distance in time they share about the future really gave it a feeling of finality, save the very last line, which with the amount of time they told the future about, it seems like your hero coming back would be...unlikely even if it's life wasn't shortened by the taint. If I had my way, next expansion (if there is one.) bring back romance, either charge less or make the expansion longer, and give the ending a bang not a thud.

[Bratt1204]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
Somebody picked an approriate username <_<

I'm glad the devs realise that you can only take these forums with a grain of salt. ME, ME2, DA:O... I was around the forums of the games post-release, and honestly, awakening is getting FAR less hate then any of those did, although honestly I suspect this was because people weren't convinced it was gonna be good. So by setting their expectations low they weren't disapointed.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the good feedback this has gotten, DA:O and ME2 got FAR more hate upon release, as soon as I beat Chaos Rising and GoW3, I'm replaying DA:O vanilla and then starting up Awakening... I really really wish I could start playing it right now!

Bratt get off this thread, it's a thread complimenting the game, there are threads that bash the game go post on one of those. Let those who enjoy it have someplace to talk positive about it.

Unfortunatley, she has been condescending and disrespectful in most of her posts and especially when someone disagrees with her.  Yet, she is quick to call people disrespecful or insinuate they are less intelligent then her.  Pot meet kettle...

THIS happens in every forum out there.

I have?

[KnightofPhoenix]

UnPlayer88 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


That doens't mean the forums are to be ignored. I loved the expansion and I absolutely do not regret buying it. But I would prefer if the Origins dialogue system woudl return, with improvements from the Awakenign system. It's good as an addition, but not a replacement.

Ignoring forums can lead to crap. Want an example? Command and Conquer 4.
I don't know where they got the idea that  everything that defined the franchise had to go. The forums were in uproar, got ignored of course (with the typical arrogant interviews claimign thatthey know what fans want). And ultimately, it turned out to be a mediocre game (and a piece of crap to CnC fans).

My point is. Improving and providing change is good. But replacing something that isn't broken is unwise. I respect Blizzard's approach to not change the basics of Starcraft. Why did it not? Because the fans didn't want change.

The Awakening system on its own wouldn't work in a full sequel. It can't accomodate romances. It cannot create deep immersion with our companions. It cannot provide very deep character development (it doesn't have to be relevent to the main plot, but it's relevent to the character).

Let's not assume that Awakening is the model for DA2. 

Well seeing how devs think this is a step in the "right direction", then yes I do worry about the sequel.
But now that they have experimented with it, they know what works and what doesn't. At least they should. It's evident that the Origin system was better, but not flawless. The Awakening system did provide new good things, but in general is less efficient and satisfying than the Origins system.

Since I am like the typical Canadian, I would advocate the middle ground by default.

[xODD7BALLx]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
Somebody picked an approriate username <_<

I'm glad the devs realise that you can only take these forums with a grain of salt. ME, ME2, DA:O... I was around the forums of the games post-release, and honestly, awakening is getting FAR less hate then any of those did, although honestly I suspect this was because people weren't convinced it was gonna be good. So by setting their expectations low they weren't disapointed.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the good feedback this has gotten, DA:O and ME2 got FAR more hate upon release, as soon as I beat Chaos Rising and GoW3, I'm replaying DA:O vanilla and then starting up Awakening... I really really wish I could start playing it right now!

Bratt get off this thread, it's a thread complimenting the game, there are threads that bash the game go post on one of those. Let those who enjoy it have someplace to talk positive about it.

Unfortunatley, she has been condescending and disrespectful in most of her posts and especially when someone disagrees with her.  Yet, she is quick to call people disrespecful or insinuate they are less intelligent then her.  Pot meet kettle...

THIS happens in every forum out there.

I have?

you probably said something nice about Obsidian which now makes you mortal enemies with the regime of internet warriors. lol

[vonFurious]

I think the "love" is very subjective, and I'm not so sure I have faith in our Moderaters/ BioWare employees ability to objectively respond to the difference between "fanboi love" (ie. 'MoAR Dragunz Aeg!!") and "gamer love" ('great game, but...'). 

I am always eager to read any dev comment, just to see if they "get it". Unfortunately, it seems like they spend most of their time dismissing/ deflecting/ ignoring legitimate technical concerns, and focusing on the "You don't like it, don't buy it" trope when it comes to users criticizing their game.

Certainly anyone taking the time to register the game, create an account, and post here has had a definitive reaction to the series, either positive or negative. I think a lot of the most heated criticism comes from users who have had a great time with this franchise, who "love" the game, but have a hard time reconciling that love with either A) Features and functionality choices (romances, DLC compatibility (clearly a design choice), plot point carry-overs) or Technical, bug, & glitch issues.

Personally, I am all for the devs defending their choices to ragers from group A. I don't think any choices are made lightly, and its fascinating to hear about how those decisions are made, and how they impact the world of Ferelden. This is a healthy communication we are lucky to be a part of.

Now, as for B.... It is at this point (Ps3 User BTW) where I have serious contention as to the quality and tone of the official BioWare party line. "If you don't like it, don't buy it" on this topic is an epic failure on the part of the game maker, and frankly, if you take the sum of their response, (or lack there of) to legitimate, persistent, documented and impassioned complaints/questions, the love starts to fade, and the rage percolates to the surface. They are a very talented group of people, clearly dedicated to their work/art. When serious technical issues are ignored through multiple patches (for consoles & PC), no explanation given for their persistence, or the problems are totally ignored, one questions the integrity of the Quality Control being exercised over the entire franchise.

And just between you and me, the whole "just buy it and wait for the patch" philosophy doesn't really hold up as a standard when the arrogance of a corporate "don't buy it if you don't like it" development philosophy seems to be BioWare's current modus operandi.

Modifié par vonFurious, 17 mars 2010 - 05:09 .

[Bratt1204]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
Somebody picked an approriate username <_<

I'm glad the devs realise that you can only take these forums with a grain of salt. ME, ME2, DA:O... I was around the forums of the games post-release, and honestly, awakening is getting FAR less hate then any of those did, although honestly I suspect this was because people weren't convinced it was gonna be good. So by setting their expectations low they weren't disapointed.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the good feedback this has gotten, DA:O and ME2 got FAR more hate upon release, as soon as I beat Chaos Rising and GoW3, I'm replaying DA:O vanilla and then starting up Awakening... I really really wish I could start playing it right now!

Bratt get off this thread, it's a thread complimenting the game, there are threads that bash the game go post on one of those. Let those who enjoy it have someplace to talk positive about it.

Unfortunatley, she has been condescending and disrespectful in most of her posts and especially when someone disagrees with her.  Yet, she is quick to call people disrespecful or insinuate they are less intelligent then her.  Pot meet kettle...

THIS happens in every forum out there.

tout à fait le contraire - I am very respectful of others.

[Bibdy]

"don't buy it if you don't like it"

How could it possibly be any other way? Its a product. Not a promise.



One of the absolute, worst possible decisions a development company can make, is let the fanbase design the game for them. The fanbase should guide, not direct.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bibdy wrote...

"don't buy it if you don't like it"

How could it possibly be any other way? Its a product. Not a promise.

One of the absolute, worst possible decisions a development company can make, is let the fanbase design the game for them. The fanbase should guide, not direct.

When you become a fan of a series or franchise, it becomes more than just a product.
Of course ultimately, we are just consummers. But don't you think that genuine fans of a team's work are important? don't you think they should care about pleasing them and meetign some of their expectations?

I definately agree, the fanbase shouldn't design the game. But their input is essential and not to be ignored. Especially for Bioware, that has a fairly large, mature and smart fanbase compared to others (and it's not only because I am here).

[Bratt1204]

Bibdy wrote...

"don't buy it if you don't like it"

How could it possibly be any other way? Its a product. Not a promise.

One of the absolute, worst possible decisions a development company can make, is let the fanbase design the game for them. The fanbase should guide, not direct.

We are not fans, we are the consumer. Corporations who relay on retail sales should cater to their customers - customers should not cater to the corporation they are purchasing products from.

[PSUHammer]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...
So who will refund my full purchase price on opened used software if I am not pleased with it?

Ebay does a pretty good job for me when I want to resell a game I don't like.  Or, you could play on consoles and just rent.

You have options.

And you get your full purchase price refunded, do you? You seem to have all the clever answers. 

If clever = common sense, then yes.  No, you don't always get the full price you paid back, but I usually get either close to what I paid (and sometimes more) if you resell close to the game's release date.  Case in point:

I bought Uncharted 2 for the PS3 as I heard it was fantastic.  Bought it two weeks after release on eBay for $49 plus $2 shipping.  I beat it in a week (it was short) and it doesn't have much replay value so I put it back up for bid.  I sold it for $50.

It was essentially a free rental.