30 réponses à ce sujet

[spacehamsterZH]

So before I explain this, and I'm sure the Liara fans have their flamethrowers locked and cocked already anyway, let me clarify a few things.

1) I played ME1 with Liara as my LI. I like Liara. I tend to be nice to every Asari I meet in both games because I like Liara and I like the Asari, and I think the concept behind the race goes way beyond their being sex objects.

2) I've said most of this before, and I'm not flame baiting. I'm starting this thread because I've never gotten a response to any of this from the Liara fans here.

3) I know I won't change your mind. If you hate what BW did with Liara in ME2, that's how you feel about it. I'm asking why you don't agree with what I'm about to say. I'm honestly interested. I know this thread doesn't have a snowball in hell's chance of staying civil, but I'm still going to try.

So here goes.

To me, good characterization is all about growth and development. Because that's what I believe life is about. Personalities aren't static. They evolve. ME1 Liara was a smart, but inexperienced, wide-eyed little girl who had spent her life mostly out of touch with the world because she was too busy with her studies. Enter Shepard, the experienced, battle-hardened warrior, who first rescues her and then turns out to have a connection to the Protheans, who Liara has always been fascinated by. It makes perfect sense that she would fall for Shepard, male or female.

Then he/she goes and dies on her. For a sensitive and vulnerable person like Liara, her first love dying a violent death practically right before her eyes would be incredibly difficult to cope with. So what does she do? She finds a new obsession with the Shadow Broker (obsessive behavior being a typical trait of hers, see her previous obsession with the Protheans) and completely buries herself in it to drown out the pain. And between devoting her life to hunting down the Shadow Broker and having lost the only person she's ever loved the way she did, of course she becomes somewhat jaded and cynical.

Two years later, when she thinks she's finally over the experience and has found a new purpose, Shepard suddenly appears again out of nowhere, and she acts cold and distant because that's how she's learned to react to everything, and she simply doesn't know how to deal with Shepard's return. Not yet, anyway.

It makes perfect f**king sense, people. It would be lame if Liara was still the same wide-eyed little girl after what she has been through plus two years to come to terms with it. She would come across as an artificial fanservice insert that makes no sense other than being cute if she was still the same Liara as before.

So Bioware goes and puts your favorite character through what is arguably the most interesting, believable and well-crafted development of just about any character in the ME universe, and that's... somehow a bad thing? I don't get it. I can understand people getting emotionally attached to a character (which also means the writers are doing a great job, by the way) and hating to see what has happened to her, but what I really don't get is this idea that Liara somehow got the shaft because they didn't know what to do with her anymore, so she was written out of the game. She has the best character arc in the game. And that's saying a lot, strong characters is what ME2 does best.

So... okay, nobody's read this far, I know. But if anyone has, opinions please.

[Tokion]

I think one have to read the Mass Effect comic to see why she changed so much. Without the knowledge of the comic's existence, we would think she is just nuts.



Maybe there are too many short reference to other ME medium (novel, phone game etc), those of us who have not read or played those, will be confused at what they are talking about.

[ForceXev]

Well said, OP. I never read the comic, but I had no problem with Liara's part in ME2. Two years have passed, and Liara is probably the best indication of the passage of that time. I'm also very intrigued by the Shadow Broker situation, and I look forward to how that will play out (likely in a future DLC). I feel like Bioware has a plan for her that will continue into ME3 and will naturally evolve her character from the soft, meek girl in ME1 into a much stronger and deeper character in ME3.

[Djehutynakht]

I'm a strong believer in civil discussion, so I hope this sticks around at least long enough for your curiosity to be satisfied in part.



First, I disagree that obsessive behavior is part of Liara's personality. That is a misunderstanding of the academic mind. An academic would be happy -- thrilled -- to be able to devote fifty years to studying the ruins of a vanished civilization. I'm studying Egyptology, and if someone were to give me the gift of fifty years of youth for intense study of the ancients, I'd burst into tears of gratitude. This isn't because I'm obsessive, it's because I'm a scholar. Scholars enjoy poking about in things others tend to ignore, searching for knowledge. It's not obsessive, it's fun.



Also, remember that Liara was intentionally distancing herself from Asari society because of the pressures of being the daughter of one of the most powerful Matriarchs. This was another non-obsessive reason for her to hang out in Prothean ruins for fifty years.



Next, I agree that Liara should not be the wide-eyed innocent. I am saddened by this, but I agree that it would happen. And you are absolutely right that there should be character development. I do not object to changes to Liara's character, I object to the way these changes were mishandled.



There is absolutely no correlation between Liara the Prothean archaeologist and Liara the obsessed murderer. She went from wide-eyed innocent to "I WILL FLAY YOU ALIVE WITH MY MIND" in only two years, which is more akin to two weeks for an asari. That's... without adequate support in character development, to put it politely. Add in the raspy voice and the crazy squinty-eyed expressions (I had the impression someone was trying to make her look like the animated version of the O_o emoticon), and she becomes not a character, but a caricature.



I could buy Liara being changed. I could buy Liara wanting to track down the Shadow Broker. What I can't buy is Liara becoming so *completely* changed that she's unrecognizable. She has gone from the logical, intelligent, rather innocent scientist to a ruthless mob boss who will murder on even a hint that she may have been crossed, barely registers Shepard's return, and has lost her ability to think logically. This is the problem.



She could have pursued the Shadow Broker without becoming everything she claimed to hate. Look at the stressors which supposedly caused this dramatic personality shift: losing her first love, and losing a friend she had known for a few days. I've been through similar stress. I lost my first love (not to death, but I've had enough relatives and friends die that I can extrapolate). If she had died, and I'd had the opportunity somehow to resurrect her, I can guarantee you that my reaction upon seeing her wouldn't amount to, "Oh, hi there. Here, help me commit a few crimes, then leave me alone."



I've also lost people I cared about in the permanent sense. A good friend -- someone I'd known rather longer than Liara knew this Feron character -- was killed in a drunk-driving accident. At no point have I thought that an appropriate response to grief would be to become a murderer. So why is it appropriate character development for Liara to discard every shred of morals and become a ruthless killer? Her threat when Shepard first met her did not sound like a joke. And she was perfectly willing to kill someone on almost no evidence, if Shepard made a mistake in identifying the Observer. How is losing (and then regaining!) a true love, and losing a friend of a few days, sufficient stress to explain the fall from academic to murderer?



Next, examine her "pursuit" of the Shadow Broker. I can understand this. I can support this. What I cannot support is her willingness effectively to *abandon* that search, as well as to abandon Shepard and any sense of responsibility or duty in pursuit of abandoning her search for the Shadow Broker. Yes, I know it was explained as a determination to *continue* her pursuit, but this is not what actually happened. I shall explain:



Shepard returns from the dead. Shepard returns with another mission to save the galaxy. Other concerns aside, as a member of Shepard's crew Liara should have been willing to join this new mission. Also, as an intelligent being capable of weighing one threat against another, Liara should have been willing to drop everything and save the galaxy again -- if the galaxy is destroyed, there's no point in hunting down any Shadow Brokers. Instead, she says she has to remain behind, because she has almost caught the Shadow Broker, and it is somehow more important to find one information dealer than it is to save the galaxy. She wasn't this stupid in ME1.



Then there's this all-important hunt she's on. The problem is, she had already failed. She's working out of a tiny office down by the docks. She thinks she is the best information broker on Illium, so good the Shadow Broker himself is on the run from her. But let's consider what's really happening. Exactly two people say she's a good information broker: the concierge (a bimbo), and her receptionist, Nyxeris. Nyxeris, as we all know, was the Shadow Broker's personal agent. Liara had allowed the Shadow Broker's agent into her inner sanctum. Absolutely everything she did was reported directly back to her greatest foe. It is safe to assume that any information she uncovered was first examined, vetted, and if necessary altered by Nyxeris or by the Shadow Broker himself. He wasn't on the run from her, he was playing games with her, using her, and keeping a powerful agent next to her to kill her should she ever become dangerous. Liara had failed.



Now Shepard returns, and offers her all the resources of the new Normandy, including full access to Cerberus' files, probably full access to the Citadel's files (access to information is implied if Shepard returns to Spectre status), and a powerful A.I. to help sort through it all. But no, she won't use these resources, even though they're orders of magnitude beyond what she has on Illium. Why not? Not because of logic. Not because of good character development. Not because of good writing. Not for any reason which can stand up under scrutiny.



Finally, there's the issue of her reaction to Shepard's return. I would have had no objection to this if there had been some character development after Liara said she was afraid Shepard would hate her. That made her seeming coldness make sense. But when all was revealed, and Shepard said Liara made the right decision, why was Liara's reaction... nothing? She didn't change. She didn't even seem to register that Shepard had said anything. She just got squinty-eyed again and said something about the Shadow Broker.



These are the reasons I object to Liara's handling in ME2.



What makes it worse for me is that it could have been done so much better -- and it could even have been fixed entirely through dialogue, without making Liara a member of the squad. Consider the following changes:



1) Liara is overjoyed to see Shepard, then immediately becomes uncertain, almost distant. This bothers Shepard deeply. Maybe he/she says something to Yeoman Kelly. Maybe he/she stares at his fish for a few hours, or gets roaring drunk. Whatever -- there's a *reaction*. Later, Shepard learns that Liara was afraid Shepard would hate her for turning the body over to Cerberus. Shepard says no, never. They reconcile. There's a reunion somewhat better than, "Nice to see you. Help me commit crimes."



2) Liara is hardened by her losses, but not quite so cold, uncaring, and willing to flay people alive.



3) Liara suspected Nyxeris -- just too helpful on a world where everyone's out for herself -- so she kept separate sets of data, one for Nyxeris to see, one private. This enables her to deal with the threat when it is exposed, either by killing Nyxeris or by using her to feed disinformation to the Shadow Broker (a much smarter use).



4) Liara wants to accompany Shepard, but realizes that she could do more good on Illium. After all, she wouldn't even be the most powerful biotic on the team -- but she would be the most powerful information broker. So EDI sets up a secure link between Liara's systems and the Normandy. They can share information. They can work on both goals together -- finding the Collectors and finding the Shadow Broker. Liara could provide mission objectives to Shepard, and Shepard could consult with Liara.



Simple, no? Four changes to the plot and dialogue, and suddenly it all becomes acceptable (at least to me). Instead, they went with bad writing and insupportable character assassination. Very, very disappointing.



Sorry for ranting for so long about it. I also write, and I get involved in good characters and good stories, and I'm offended by bad writing. ME1 had such good writing that I thought it might herald a shift in video games toward becoming a form of literature. It disappoints me greatly to see the quality of writing drop so far, at least where Liara is concerned.

[RAIDENKUN]

I agree completely with Djehutynakht. I like character development as much as the next guy, but Liara's was unbelievable for a two year period (especially considering the Asari lifespan). Her interactions and significance in the game were severely and inexcusably underplayed. Sadly, all of the ME1 squadmates (save Garrus and Tali obviously) were written out of the game for nothing more than the sake of introducing new, more EXTREME characters that would have more appeal to gamers looking for an action-shooter rather than a story-driven RPG. Making Liara such a flat character in the second game precludes her from any significant role in the third installment of the trilogy beyond giving a mission to find and kill the Shadow Broker. To bring her back as a LI or even a permanent team member would be unbelievable given her clear detachment from Shepard in ME2.

[spacehamsterZH]

RAIDENKUN wrote...



Sadly, all of the ME1 squadmates (save Garrus and Tali obviously) were written out of the game for nothing more than the sake of introducing new, more EXTREME characters that would  have more appeal to gamers looking for an action-shooter rather than a  story-driven RPG.

I dunno, the only character that fits that description to me is Jack. You'd say Mordin is an "extreme" character that you'd expect in an action game? How is Ashley not a character that could just as well have been in an  action game? And the point could easily be made that Kaidan was only there because you needed somebody with powers on the team in case you chose a soldier Shepard.

Djehutynakht wrote...

Scholars enjoy poking about in things others tend to ignore, searching for knowledge. It's not obsessive, it's fun.

One man's obsession is another's fun. We'll have to chalk this one up to semantics, I think. A more neutral way of putting it might have been that Liara has shown before that she tends to devote all her attention to the solving of one particular mystery if it interests her enough. I call that obsession, you call that science. Heh.

two years, which is more akin to two weeks for an asari.

Point taken about this. I was actually thinking when I hit "submit" that I kind of glossed over this. I do think we'd have to assume that for a younger Asari, it still seems like a longer timespan than for a Matriarch, but yeah... good point.

Add in the raspy voice and the crazy squinty-eyed expressions

Never noticed that. I thought she still talked pretty much the same slightly overarticulated way, almost excessively so to remind us who she is, really...

I could buy Liara being changed. I could buy Liara wanting to track down the Shadow Broker. What I can't buy is Liara becoming so *completely* changed that she's unrecognizable.

On this (and sorry if I'm just snipping out a big chunk of what follows here, I did read it all and I see your point) I really think we'll just have to, ahem, "agree to disagree", much as I hate this expression. Not everybody handles grief the same way, so yes, what happened to Liara wouldn't turn anyone into a borderline lunatic, but it also isn't something that everyone would necessarily come out of unscathed. She was clearly portrayed as being noticeably vulnerable in ME1, and the only relative of hers that was ever shown is a pretty good indicator that crazy runs in her family. If anything, I'd say her echoing the "Asari commando unit" line was a bit of a ham-fisted way to remind us of that and hint at the idea that she may be turning into her mother.

What I will have to agree with is that Shepard's reaction doesn't make much sense. There should at least be an option to press her about her feelings for him on the dialogue wheel if she was your LI in the first game, and that did bother me.

As for the all-around poor job she's doing chasing the Shadow Broker... true, but I think you're assuming a bit too much if you're saying since she was portrayed as a brilliant scientist in ME1, she automatically has to be a brilliant detective as well. As she says, she mostly rose to her position because people respected her for being part of Shepard's crew in ME1. Whether those two sidequests and what they seem to indicate about her detective skills were just poorly written or if she really is meant to be a nincompoop remains to be seen, I'd say. The thing is, it seems pretty obvious to me that they're setting up something larger in ME3 with this Shadow Broker business, so I'm holding off judgment on that until I see it come to fruition.

Modifié par spacehamsterZH, 17 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[spacehamsterZH]

a08m08 wrote...

To me Nyxeris performs no other role than that of receptionist so she really wouldn't know a whole lot of detail about Liara's doings.

If you ask her what she does she explains that she has her own net of contacts that she uses to supplement Liara's and help her with her work, but that also kind of implies that she's not in on much of anything Liara knows because their information networks are separate.

[swk3000]

For those who are interested, the Mass Effect: Galaxy game has nothing to do with Liara.



As for the Comic, Liara is a main character. The thing is still being written, but the general gist of the first two issues is that the Collectors are trying to get Shepard's body, and they're using the Shadow Broker to broker the transaction (no pun intended). Cerberus knows about this, and the Illusive Man has hired Liara to get Shepard's body before the Collectors do.



Now, Liara's obsession with the Shadow Broker will likely stem from some later plot point (as I said, only two issues are out), and she'll have roughly a year-and-a-half to stew in it as she puts everything she has towards making the Shadow Broker pay for whatever it is he's going to do/will have done. When you spend that much time focused on one goal with such single-minded determination, someone who meets you again after, say, two years is probably going to see you as a completely different person.

[CommanderTravis]

if you do all the missions for liara she will tell you how she fought against the shadow broker to get shepards body back and that she gave you to cerberus.



This makes her feel very guilty! She just couldnt let shepard go, so she handed the body over to cerberus. she felt guilty because she gave shepard to people who would potentially use him for their own nefarious purposes (a valid concern because Miranda said she wanted to implant a control chip in shepards brain). she didn't care as long as he would be brought back, so she feels like she betrayed shepard. I think this explains why she seems somewhat distant from shepard.



As for the shadow broker he tried to sell shepard to the collectors and captured or killed her friend feron. I think she feels that she may be redeeming herself by hunting the man who tried to sell shepard to the collectors. She may also be trying to avenge Feron. I think that explains her anger.



Liaras role in shepards revival and her subsequent character development are very well done in my opinion, and I'm a big liara fan and shes my shepards love interest! Can't wait for the rumored liara/romance dlc!

[Lvl20DM]

I thought the treatment of Liara, Wrex, and Ashley/Kaiden were all good (if brief). I don't understand the statements that she is "unrecognizable" in ME 2. Her making that threat, quoting her mother, when you first meet her was priceless. I strongly suspect they are setting her up to be a major player in ME 3, likely a squad-mate.

[Chuvvy]

I agree with op,I liked ME2 Liara more than ME1 Liara. She seems to have matured allot.

[implodinggoat]

I don't mind them developing Liara's character and I actually think that making her more hardened was a logical way to take her character; but it sure as hell wasn't handled well. The only line which has her show any emotion whatsoever is hidden under a single dialogue choice which is very easy to miss. If you miss that line as I did the first time I played through its totally brutal and you leave feeling like she doesn't give a **** about you and all she wanted you for was to use you to hack systems for her.



Aside from that its not just as if she's gotten a little more hardened, she's totally changed. In ME1 she was totally benevolent; but in ME2 the first time I see her she's quoting her indoctrinated mother and threatening to tear someone in half with her mind. What the ****? She had a hundred years to become the woman she was before ME1 and yet in the two years between ME1 and ME2 she's undergone such a radical change in character? I don't buy it.



At the very least they could have given me a single line of cute and nerdy ME1 Liara dialogue or some option to tell her I care; but I get nothing. It is in my opinion the most poorly executed part in the entirety of ME2 and that includes the random shuttle trip that everyone takes while the crew gets abducted. (The voice actress did a decent enough job, it was the writing I objected to.)

[implodinggoat]

Lvl20DM wrote...

I thought the treatment of Liara, Wrex, and Ashley/Kaiden were all good (if brief). I don't understand the statements that she is "unrecognizable" in ME 2. Her making that threat, quoting her mother, when you first meet her was priceless. I strongly suspect they are setting her up to be a major player in ME 3, likely a squad-mate.

They did a great job with Wrex and I actually liked the Ashley/Kaiden confrontation since it is at least understandable.  However the Ashley/Kaiden doalogue had the same problem as with Liara in that it gives you no opportunity to get any resolution which makes sense since they storm off.  With Liara though she's just sitting across the table from you and you can't say a damn thing even though any human being would want to, simply because the game doesn't give you the chance.

As for her more threatening dialogue, I'm pretty sure they were going for it to be an act she's putting on; but its not made clear enough.  If Liara did anything cute or endearing to offset it then it would have been less ambiguous.  All told I see Liara acting like Benezia 3 times (the quote, her non chalant attitude about killing her secretary, and the second time she does the creepy voice for no apparent reason.) and I see her acting like Liara once (and that is in a easily missed piece of dialogue).    

Plus, I got a way better kiss from Gianna Parisini.    

Modifié par implodinggoat, 17 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[Xenos42]

Agree with you on all points op.

[scmadsen]

As has been said, it's true Liara loves Shepard no matter if the feeling is returned. She loses the one person she has ever loved, and no one seems too worried about finding the body and bring it back to be laid to a proper rest. This would upset anyone, as Shepard is the only "family" Liara has left in the galaxy.

So she goes off in search of finding Shepard and finding out what happened, only to learn the SB has taken Shepard's body and selling it to someone, then learns who they are. This pisses her off but of course she wants to know why.

We haven't seen the full story yet, but we know Liara somehow gets Shepard back and hands the body over to TIM, on the promise that he will bring Shepard back to life. We don't know what kind of deal was made between TIM and Liara, but fans think it's was something along the lines of. "We'll bring Shepard back, but you can't distract him from the mission I'll be sending him on." Liara can't let Shepard go, and for the slim hope of just seeing Shepard one day, she agrees. That alone would break her heart.

My own personel thoughts, are that Liara has been working to make the funds to help the project along. We hear when you start ME2 on the station, if you play the logs, that Willson is saying he has no idea where all the money is coming from. I like to think it's from Liara. Maybe part of the deal, or just her wanting to help Shepard? No matter what it is, this explains why Liara says she has debts to pay.

Now why is she so angry...because she is hunting the SB, who caused her so much pain, and by proxy, the Collecters too, who hurt Shepard, the love of her life. In her own way, she also wants to help Shepard bring down the Collecters, but she has a job to do still...but by learning more about the SB and taking him down, she hopes to learn something that can help Shepard.

Her change can also be explained thru a little speculation on our part as well. Perhaps the meld with Shepard changed Liara and made her a bit harder. Perhaps it was just the pain and loss Liara went thru, her mother then her love in a short time. Or Liara and Shepard were going to have daughters, and Liara was making the change to a Matron...she lost Shepard, and maybe that "broke" her. Whatever happened...Liara feels alot of loss and love for Shepard, more then is normal for an Asari when lossing a bondmate.

It's clear that Liara loves Shepard, and I for one, after being given all the facts, can understand. It was lame of BioWare to throw us Liara without the full story and make us get the comics to understand, but that's ok, it's marketing and not the writers fault.

Where the mistake was made...is how Shepard doesn't react to Liara, doesn't comfort her or anything, just kind of sits in her office like a moron. That feels forced storywise. Also, the total lack of any convos about Liara to anyone at all. My Shepard would of said, screw the rest of the galaxy, I only care about Liara...then done whatever it took to fix her and take down the SB for her.

Modifié par scmadsen, 18 mars 2010 - 12:08 .

[implodinggoat]

scmadsen wrote...

Where the mistake was made...is how Shepard doesn't react to Liara, doesn't comfort her or anything, just kind of sits in her office like a moron. That feels forced storywise. Also, the total lack of any convos about Liara to anyone at all. My Shepard would of said, screw the rest of the galaxy, I only care about Liara...then done whatever it took to fix her and take down the SB for her.

That's why the first thing I asked her after I finished hacking all those damn terminals was if she needed anymore help to which she says "no" and clams up forever.   I assumed that since it was on the left side of the dialogue wheel that I'd be able to ask a follow up; but no.  Talking to her for the first time and not at least getting the "I couldn't let you go" line is absolutely brutal, and it actually left me feeling depressed until I found it after someone on these forums told me I should go back and replay that part.  If Bioware had just left the option to ask about her anger at the Shadow Broker as a follow up it wouldn't have been quite as terrible; but meeting Liara and missing the only piece of dialogue which actually made her sound like herself is like an icy dagger to the heart.   I realize that such a degree of sentimentality for a videogame character is silly; but seeing a character who was so well written in the first game handled so poorly has an impact.

Again, I don't really mind the direction they took her character.  I just think that if they wanted to make such a radical change to the character that they really needed to put more effort into it and give Liara more dialogue which helps to explain why she's changed and how she really feels.   They just don't put enough focus on her character to properly convey such a radical change.   I ordered the comics hoping that might give me some more insight (and I'm enjoying them); but the game needs to develop its character by itself, not rely on outside media to do it.  

[scmadsen]

I only hope, that this all gets fixed in a DLC or a full XPac...I really want to help Liara, and fix the romance.



The perfect DLC for Liara, would be helping her take down the SB, getting her to open up, and then comforting her. Ending with her coming back to Normandy and staying in Shepard's cabin till ME3 when she is a full squadmate again.

[spacehamsterZH]

scmadsen wrote...

My own personel thoughts, are that Liara has been working to make the funds to help the project along. We hear when you start ME2 on the station, if you play the logs, that Willson is saying he has no idea where all the money is coming from. I like to think it's from Liara. Maybe part of the deal, or just her wanting to help Shepard? No matter what it is, this explains why Liara says she has debts to pay.

Man, I can't believe I missed that. I've replayed the opening at least six times now and actually did wonder about this weird comment from Wilson, but I never made the connection. This would actually make a lot of sense.

You'd have to wonder, though, if the justification for Liara going after the SB when the Collectors are clearly the bigger threat is at least in part that the two are actually connected, why doesn't she just tell Shepard this?

I don't mind that much that much of this is probably explained in the comic - if you're this interested in the individual characters' backstory, I think you can be expected to get the tie-ins - but it's not exactly a smart logistical move that the comic wasn't finished by the time the game came out. I'll still get it, probably when the trade comes out in June, but it doesn't make any sense that the stuff isn't released in sequence.

[devilsgrin]

i imagined the "debts" she has to repay, are the Revenge kind of debts....not-so-much monetary ones... (except if they are financial debts incurred through seeking her revenge).



I loved darker Liara. And i really enjoyed innocent Liara in ME1... something about the Benezia tone, rang so perfectly for her... as if, act or not, Liara was playing in a new league, rather than as naive squadmate/plaything for Shep.

[devilsgrin]

ooh, i also suspect, that once the Liara DLC comes out, those "do you need any help" options may become available...

[OneBadAssMother]

My wife disagrees.