30 réponses à ce sujet

[devilsgrin]

Maviarab wrote...

I could buy Liara being changed. I could buy Liara wanting to track down the Shadow Broker. What I can't buy is Liara becoming so *completely* changed that she's unrecognizable. She has gone from the logical, intelligent, rather innocent scientist to a ruthless mob boss who will murder on even a hint that she may have been crossed, barely registers Shepard's return, and has lost her ability to think logically. This is the problem.

People change, 2 years can be a long time....

agreed.
the Asari lifespan can't be used as an excuse for her not changing quickly. more than one Asari in the game mention that their adaptability is one of their strengths, and can be one of their greatest faults. Asari seem, aside perhaps from Salarians, the most open to change, and innovation. This would be easily carried over into their psyche, and result in swift seeming changes regardless of the 1000 year lifespan.
Liara is still a maiden after-all... she's hardly a 1000 year old Samara or even a Benezia... she may be beginning to plan long-term  -  with the Shadow Broker hunt for instance, but two years would still be a long time for her.
For Aria and Samara it might indeed be a blip... for Liara... two years is.. well... two whole years.

[ForceXev]

Djehutynakht wrote...
There is absolutely no correlation between Liara the Prothean archaeologist and Liara the obsessed murderer. She went from wide-eyed innocent to "I WILL FLAY YOU ALIVE WITH MY MIND" in only two years, which is more akin to two weeks for an asari. That's... without adequate support in character development, to put it politely. Add in the raspy voice and the crazy squinty-eyed expressions (I had the impression someone was trying to make her look like the animated version of the O_o emoticon), and she becomes not a character, but a caricature.

First, I think it's a stretch to call her an obsessed murderer, at least in Mass Effect universe terms.  She killed Nyxeris, and we can probably assume she's killed other agents of the Shadow Broker along the way, but it's not like she's out killing random people in the street.  She probably never killed anyone before she met Shepherd, but at Shepherd's side she did a lot of killing while they persued Saren, and a lot of that killing was probably morally ambiguous.  It's entirely reasonable that she is desensitized to killing people now.  To her, killing bad guys in persuit of the Shadow Broker is nothing new - it's just a continuation of who she was when she was part of Shepherd's team. 

Secondly, you're making an assumption that two years is akin to two weeks for an Asari without evidence.  Just because they live longer doesn't mean that they experience the passing of time differently.  The passing of time is not really what's important, anyway, it was being with Shepherd followed by his sudden death that changed her.

And I didn't notice any raspy voice or squinty eyes.  Nothing out of the ordinary, anyway. I think maybe you're seeing things that support your complaints that aren't really there.

I could buy Liara being changed. I could buy Liara wanting to track down the Shadow Broker. What I can't buy is Liara becoming so *completely* changed that she's unrecognizable. She has gone from the logical, intelligent, rather innocent scientist to a ruthless mob boss who will murder on even a hint that she may have been crossed, barely registers Shepard's return, and has lost her ability to think logically. This is the problem.

From her own description as well as the description of other characters who refer you to her, she is an information broker, not a "mob boss."  There is nothing in the game to suggest that she is engaged in organized crime.  In fact, she seems to be in a respected position on Illium.

Look at the stressors which supposedly caused this dramatic personality shift: losing her first love, and losing a friend she had known for a few days. I've been through similar stress. I lost my first love (not to death, but I've had enough relatives and friends die that I can extrapolate). If she had died, and I'd had the opportunity somehow to resurrect her, I can guarantee you that my reaction upon seeing her wouldn't amount to, "Oh, hi there. Here, help me commit a few crimes, then leave me alone."

You are you and Liara is Liara.  Not everyone reacts to tragedy the same way.  After losing their first love in a violent accident, one person might shrug it off and immediately start dating someone new, and another person might give up on life and commit suicide.  Everyone reacts differently. 

Secondly, her reaction makes sense because she already knew he was alive (for the sake of discussion, my Shepherd is male).  It wasn't a surprise to her to see him come in.  She was expecting him, so she prepared herself.  The way I see it, she was purposely distancing herself.  After losing Shepherd before, she doesn't want to get too close again and risk going through the pain all over again if Shepherd's new mission gets him killed (again) which seems likely considering the nature of the mission.

Shepard returns from the dead. Shepard returns with another mission to save the galaxy. Other concerns aside, as a member of Shepard's crew Liara should have been willing to join this new mission. Also, as an intelligent being capable of weighing one threat against another, Liara should have been willing to drop everything and save the galaxy again -- if the galaxy is destroyed, there's no point in hunting down any Shadow Brokers. Instead, she says she has to remain behind, because she has almost caught the Shadow Broker, and it is somehow more important to find one information dealer than it is to save the galaxy. She wasn't this stupid in ME1.

You have a point here.  Catching the Shadow Broker won't be worth squat if the galaxy is overrun by Reapers.  This is just an unfortunately necessary plot contrivance to keep Liara off the Normandy in ME2.  For whatever reason, they didn't want Liara to be a playable character.  Maybe they didn't have time to do her loyalty mission.  Maybe they wanted to keep the player free to pick up a new LI, so keeping Liara away avoids sticky situations in that area.  I don't know.  They needed some reason for her to not join the crew, and her obsession with the Shadow Broker is it.

One could argue that her persuit of the Shadow Broker is still at least related to Shepherd's mission, though, since the Shadow Broker had been hired by the Collectors to get Shepherd's body to them.  The Shadow Broker may still be actively persuing Shepherd for the Collectors, so by continuing to go after him she is indirectly helping Shepherd.

Then there's this all-important hunt she's on. The problem is, she had already failed. She's working out of a tiny office down by the docks. She thinks she is the best information broker on Illium, so good the Shadow Broker himself is on the run from her. But let's consider what's really happening. Exactly two people say she's a good information broker: the concierge (a bimbo), and her receptionist, Nyxeris. Nyxeris, as we all know, was the Shadow Broker's personal agent. Liara had allowed the Shadow Broker's agent into her inner sanctum. Absolutely everything she did was reported directly back to her greatest foe. It is safe to assume that any information she uncovered was first examined, vetted, and if necessary altered by Nyxeris or by the Shadow Broker himself. He wasn't on the run from her, he was playing games with her, using her, and keeping a powerful agent next to her to kill her should she ever become dangerous. Liara had failed.

Earlier you called her a mob boss, now she's an unknown failure with a tiny office by the docks.  The truth is we don't know the extent of her operation.  She could have an army of agents working for her, or she could be doing this alone and deluding herself into thinking she can succeed.  We don't know how close to catching the Shadow Broker she really is.

It doesn't really matter.  What matters is that Liara believes she is succeeding, and that's why she chooses not to join Shepherd.

Finally, there's the issue of her reaction to Shepard's return. I would have had no objection to this if there had been some character development after Liara said she was afraid Shepard would hate her. That made her seeming coldness make sense. But when all was revealed, and Shepard said Liara made the right decision, why was Liara's reaction... nothing? She didn't change. She didn't even seem to register that Shepard had said anything. She just got squinty-eyed again and said something about the Shadow Broker.

I've hit on this already, but I'll sum up:  She is cold because she is angry and obsessed with the Shadow Broker, and I think she is purposely distancing herself from Shepherd to avoid the pain of the loss she felt the last time.

There will of course be more of Liara ahead, and I think we'll see some of the old Liara again.  For one thing, Shepherd and Liara haven't been alone together yet since his return.  After the ME2 mission is complete, Liara might let her guard down and get close to Shepherd again.  And once the Shadow Broker is dealt with, she will be free of that burden.

Modifié par ForceXev, 18 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[tonnactus]

[quote]ForceXev wrote...

[quote]Djehutynakht wrote...
She probably never killed anyone before she met Shepherd, but at Shepherd's side she did a lot of killing while they persued Saren, and a lot of that killing was probably morally ambiguous.
[/quote]
She killed mercs before she met shepardt.("Nothing my biotics cant handle")

[scmadsen]

That's true, Liara has always been a badass biotic. She tells you herself that she never ran into anything she couldn't take care of. I'm sure she crossed paths with lots of mercs or slavers. Being alone she'd of been a tempting target. The one time she ever had a problem is with the Geth, and Shepard saves her.

[ForceXev]

Right, I forgot. All the more reason that her actions in ME2 is not a new thing for her.