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[Efesell]

Addai67 wrote...

Efesell wrote...

Un-hardened he still has either the PC or Eamon to fall back on.

Eamon's a chancellor, not a military leader.

Er, says who exactly?

Maybe I missed something but I seem to recall him being one of the key members of the uprising against Orlais.

[errant_knight]

Auresta wrote...

I think Alistair would save the city; he'd hate leaving Vigils Keep behind but he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he didn't at least attempt to save innocent lives.
And of course he'd kill the Architect: what he's doing is (although the end could POSSIBLY be good) monstrous, taking Grey Warden blood for his own and having started the last Blight; Alistair is concerned with how good and positive the means are to get to the end, not with the ends.

I think you're probably right about that. What about the protecting the city, country, roads, or all decision?

[krylo]

Auresta wrote...

@Efesell: in Origins? Unhardened, right? Hardened he does pretty well I think.

I think Alistair would save the city; he'd hate leaving Vigils Keep behind but he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he didn't at least attempt to save innocent lives.
And of course he'd kill the Architect: what he's doing is (although the end could POSSIBLY be good) monstrous, taking Grey Warden blood for his own and having started the last Blight; Alistair is concerned with how good and positive the means are to get to the end, not with the ends.

Hardened?  Sure, on both counts.

Unhardened, though, he also has friends at the keep.  I don't think he could live with himself if he allowed them to die, either.  Further, in a discussion with, I believe Morrigan, if he is romancing the PC it's strongly hinted that an unhardened Alistair would, at the very least, but very unsure of what to do if it was 'stop the blight or save the woman I love'.

As a result, I don't see an unhardened Alistair being capable of making an easy and decisive decision about Amaranthine.  Most likely he'd request a trusted advisor to suggest a route and take that one.  Which would probably mean going to the keep, in all honesty.

As for the Architect, again, an unhardened Alistair is easily swayed and the Architect can be very convincing.  I think this one would go either way depending on what companions are with him.  The Architect would probably throw him off enough in an unhardened state to not immediately kill him, but The Architect's words won't overcome those of his friends if he has Justice or Sigurn with--for instance.

[Efesell]

I agree that Alistair probably wouldn't want to join up with the Architect.



He could probably be talked into it though, just be surly about it.

[Auresta]

errant_knight wrote...
I think you're probably right about that. What about the protecting the city, country, roads, or all decision?

Elaborate on your question please? I'm kinda fuzzy headed

[krylo]

Auresta wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I think you're probably right about that. What about the protecting the city, country, roads, or all decision?

Elaborate on your question please? I'm kinda fuzzy headed

Troop dispersal question near the beginning.

Unhardened--Fields, or all over.  Innocent life arguments and all.

Hardened--Trade route.  Makes the most sense given the choices available, and Alistair has a good head on his shoulders once he's confident enough to use it.

[Addai]

Efesell wrote...

Er, says who exactly?

Maybe I missed something but I seem to recall him being one of the key members of the uprising against Orlais.

He was a child at the time and played no part in the rebellion.  His family did, but The Stolen Throne states that Eamon and Teagan were being fostered away from the fighting.

He had no military role in the defeat of the Blight (edit: no more than any other noble lord, i.e. commanding his own bannermen)

Modifié par Addai67, 22 mars 2010 - 04:12 .

[Auresta]

@Krylo: I'd have to disagree about the Architect part. Remember the Connor thing? He couldn't bear with you wanting to sacrifice someone in order to go into the fade.. I believe the main difference between a Hardened and Unhardened Alistair is how he manages his emotions, namely romantic. He seems to have too strong of a sense of justice.
Of course, if you decide to sacrifice Isolde, he confronts you later and backs down when you insist on that it was the right/only thing to do.. but before that, he's really adamant.
Edit: Didn't say this properly; I don't think he'd be swayed by the Architect.. I think if anything, he might doubt his own feelings about it, but he'd never fully support him.

Modifié par Auresta, 22 mars 2010 - 04:08 .

[krylo]

Auresta wrote...

@Krylo: I'd have to disagree about the Architect part. Remember the Connor thing? He couldn't bear with you wanting to sacrifice someone in order to go into the fade.. I believe the main difference between a Hardened and Unhardened Alistair is how he manages his emotions, namely romantic. He seems to have too strong of a sense of justice.
Of course, if you decide to sacrifice Isolde, he confronts you later and backs down when you insist on that it was the right/only thing to do.. but before that, he's really adamant.
Edit: Didn't say this properly; I don't think he'd be swayed by the Architect.. I think if anything, he might doubt his own feelings about it, but he'd never fully support him.

I think the main difference is his self-confidence.  Once hardened he will make decisions and stick to them.  He believes in himself.  He believes himself capable of ruling.

Low self-confidence makes one easier to sway, and while I agree that I don't think the Architect alone would convince him to spare his life, if you're partied up with Oghren and... whomever else supports him, I think he could be convinced to side with the Architect.

If you're partied up with Justice/Sigurn, however, he would have his original feelings validated and choose to kill the Architect even if unhardened.

I also agree he probably wouldn't feel RIGHT about it, but he wouldn't be confident enough to assert what he feels IS right in the face of companions that disagree and the Architect's own charisma.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 04:11 .

[Efesell]

Addai67 wrote...

Efesell wrote...

Er, says who exactly?

Maybe I missed something but I seem to recall him being one of the key members of the uprising against Orlais.

He was a child at the time and played no part in the rebellion.  His family did, but The Calling states that Eamon and Teagan were being fostered away from the fighting.

He had no military role in the defeat of the Blight (edit: no more than any other noble lord, i.e. commanding his own bannermen)

Hm, must have been thinking of something else then.

[Addai]

Correction to myself above: The Stolen Throne, not The Calling

[Addai]

I don't see Alistair agreeing to help the Architect. He is experimenting on Grey Wardens, using blood magic, and extending the taint. Be that for the greater good or not, Alistair is too idealistic to go along with that. People need to remember that even unhardened, he has lines he won't cross, and can be forceful when pissed off sufficiently.

[Thalorin1919]

Efesell wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Efesell wrote...

Un-hardened he still has either the PC or Eamon to fall back on.

Eamon's a chancellor, not a military leader.

Er, says who exactly?

Maybe I missed something but I seem to recall him being one of the key members of the uprising against Orlais.

Actually Eamon and Teagan were sent north during the Orlais rebellion as they were both young kids. I cant remember, but he either had a older brother or a father that was killed during the war. After it was over, Maric brought back Eamon and Teagan and granted Eamon the Arl of Redcliffe.

[Auresta]

@Krylo: again, I guess I'm kinda torn. I think he'd make a big fuss about it, personally, if he felt the Architect was bad and everyone else in the party felt he was okay.

He was pretty pissed when I wanted Loghain to be a Grey Warden (of course, this is because he has strong emotional ties to the things Loghain has done)



I suppose I'll have to agree on the self-confidence part (to me I saw more of him being adamant in romance and his own feelings, so I guess that is self confidence), but I still don't see him siding with the Architect, even with his charisma.



I think his sense of justice is too strong in both cases.. and again on the Architect thing, if he knows the Architect caused the last blight (even though this is after you decide whether or not to kill him), he'd blame him sure as hell for the death of Duncan and his brah and everything.. and would probably freak out right then and there and try to kill the Architect (somehow).

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see Alistair agreeing to help the Architect. He is experimenting on Grey Wardens, using blood magic, and extending the taint. Be that for the greater good or not, Alistair is too idealistic to go along with that. People need to remember that even unhardened, he has lines he won't cross, and can be forceful when pissed off sufficiently.

What line, exactly, won't he cross?

I'm pretty sure he's one of the few characters that will actually stick by you no matter what you do, Loghain aside--and I'm not convinced the Architect would have the same emotional triggers.  Loghain wasn't BAD BAD EVIL BAD for killing the wardens persay.  He was BAD BAD EVIL BAD for killing Duncan and Alistair's friends.

Killing Connor?  Yeah, he'll **** about it.  But he'll also help do it, and back off pretty quick if you convince him it was for the greater good.

Killing Isolde?  Same.

Having sex with a woman he hates in a blood magic ritual designed to entrap the soul he's supposed to be destroying?  Sign him up!

Lel has lines she won't cross. Wynne has lines she won't cross.  Shale has lines she won't cross.  Sten has lines he won't cross.

I've yet to find a line Alistair won't cross.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 04:20 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see Alistair agreeing to help the Architect. He is experimenting on Grey Wardens, using blood magic, and extending the taint. Be that for the greater good or not, Alistair is too idealistic to go along with that. People need to remember that even unhardened, he has lines he won't cross, and can be forceful when pissed off sufficiently.

Ah yes, good point! It's blood magic--and darkspawn blood magic at that. Nope, he wouldn't go there. In fact, it might be one of those 'line in the sand' moments where there's a lot of yelling.

krylo wrote...

Auresta wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I think you're probably right about that. What about the protecting the city, country, roads, or all decision?

Elaborate on your question please? I'm kinda fuzzy headed

Troop dispersal question near the beginning.

Unhardened--Fields, or all over.  Innocent life arguments and all.

Hardened--Trade route.  Makes the most sense given the choices available, and Alistair has a good head on his shoulders once he's confident enough to use it.

I meant the decision about troop allocation. You have the choice of sending them to guard the farms, the city, the trade routes, or dividing them to try and cover all. You've been told there aren't enough to do all properly (but apparently that doesn't actually hold true in terms of the epilogue, although I can't speak from experience).

My PC was the queen, so I ended up considering this as I made the decisions. For all I knew, he might show up at the end and have something to say about how things went. I found this to be a much more difficult choice than the city or the keep one, in which I went with the city.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 04:27 .

[Addai]

A little L word ring any bells?

[krylo]

Auresta wrote...

 he'd blame him sure as hell for the death of Duncan and his brah and everything.. and would probably freak out right then and there and try to kill the Architect (somehow).

True.

If he knew about this at decision time, I think it would be the proverbial straw that broke the proverbial camel's proverbial back.  Without knowing it, though, I'm not sure an unhardened Alistair would make the call.  Not decisively at least.

It's a grey area, I'll admit, and maybe he'd man up for it.  I definitely think a hardened Alistair would.

errant_knight wrote...

Ah yes, good point! It's blood magic--and darkspawn blood magic at that. Nope, he wouldn't go there. In fact, it might be one of those 'line in the sand' moments where there's a lot of yelling.

He's totally ok with swamp witch blood/forbidden magic, though.  Even when it means having sex with her.  Not buying that as the deal breaker.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

A little L word ring any bells?

Haha, yeah.

I edited.

[Auresta]

@Krylo: You are impossible! lol

Blood magic + Grey Warden Blood + possibility of the Architect fuzzing up to make another Blight (more Duncans dead you know) + more messed up darkspawn = Alistair saying no!



Also, because there's so many possibilities with the Architect messing up if we left him to live, I don't think Alistair, being as fretful as he is, could live with himself knowing that he could have killed more people..



If you're arguing that he's easily swayed and wussy on his end for being so easily swayed, I then think he's cowardly enough to not take risks of future endangerment (this doesn't include the demon baby because you, as a friend or lover, told him to trust you).



I guess that last statement loops back to the fact that if you insisted that it was the right thing to do, he'd go along with you.. but assuming he's alone (it's what Alistair would do, not what Alistair and co. would do), I think he'd kill the Architect.

[Efesell]

Auresta wrote...

Also, because there's so many possibilities with the Architect messing up if we left him to live, I don't think Alistair, being as fretful as he is, could live with himself knowing that he could have killed more people..

He'll have a hell of a time being King then.

[krylo]

Auresta wrote...
If you're arguing that he's easily swayed and wussy on his end for being so easily swayed, I then think he's cowardly enough to not take risks of future endangerment (this doesn't include the demon baby because you, as a friend or lover, told him to trust you).

I don't think he's wussy.

I just think that he's been told his entire life that he can't lead, and will never lead, and as a result he doesn't feel that he can lead and prefers to take his direction from others.  An entire life of this has left him with low self-confidence and an inability to stand up for what he feels is right in the face of peer pressure.

He's no more 'wussy' than, I would guess, around 90% of the people on this forum.  Ever been convinced to skip class with your hoodlum friends even though you felt bad about it?  (personally, I was the hoodlum convincing people to skip)  You're no better than Al.

Hardened Alistair, however, seems like he'd not let other people sway him.

but assuming he's alone (it's what Alistair would do, not what Alistair and co. would do), I think he'd kill the Architect.

Agreed.  Entirely.

He'd probably feel bad about it after listening to the Architect--but not as bad as if he didn't kill him.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 04:36 .

[Cazlee]

I think Alistair would have reacted in the exact same way Anders did on both matters.

[errant_knight]

krylo wrote...

Auresta wrote...

 he'd blame him sure as hell for the death of Duncan and his brah and everything.. and would probably freak out right then and there and try to kill the Architect (somehow).

True.

If he knew about this at decision time, I think it would be the proverbial straw that broke the proverbial camel's proverbial back.  Without knowing it, though, I'm not sure an unhardened Alistair would make the call.  Not decisively at least.

It's a grey area, I'll admit, and maybe he'd man up for it.  I definitely think a hardened Alistair would.

errant_knight wrote...

Ah yes, good point! It's blood magic--and darkspawn blood magic at that. Nope, he wouldn't go there. In fact, it might be one of those 'line in the sand' moments where there's a lot of yelling.

He's totally ok with swamp witch blood/forbidden magic, though.  Even when it means having sex with her.  Not buying that as the deal breaker.

It's actually much more difficult to discuss game characters than book characters when so much depends on mechanics. The whole thing is set up so that it's impossible to lose Alistair until landsmeet, which means that he has to suck it up. Interms of how much he hates it, I have to think that if we were dealing with a character in a book, instead of one whose decisions you have to control to make the game work, he wouldn't accept those things. He really hates blood magic, and the fact that he goes along with the ritual doesn't negate that, it just demonstrates how much he'll sacrifice for others. I think the saving of life by making a deal with the Architect would be both too dubious and too abstract to hold sway with him in this case.

Cazlee wrote...

I think Alistair would have reacted in the exact same way Anders did on both matters.

Anders reaction really surprised me, given that he was willing to make deals with someone as repugnant as the Baroness to get out of the fade.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 04:40 .

[Auresta]

@Efesell: well.. I'm presenting my argument as him being unhardened.

Sorry, I know my arguments are totally unorganized and jumbled Bear with me D: