153 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

I agree with both of you. He hates the idea, but with the exception of his reaction to losing everyone he cared about (understandably), he's not a brooder. He can be concerned about something--and really not have wanted to do it at all in the moment, but still not let it ruin his life. I think we're splitting hairs, here, and it's not really the best example, since it was about saving the last wardens in Fereldan.

[Addai]

krylo wrote...
Considering he says it with a smile and chuckles at the idea of coming clean with the wardens, it ALSO doesn't sound like a man who is as broken up about it as you are making him out to be.

Oh, good grief.  He's happy you're alive and the Blight is over.  He's still worried about the ritual and its consequences, as he also tells you.  Alistair jokes about everything, it is how he deals with problems, and certainly doesn't mean he's not overthinking underneath the surface.  Surely you know the character well enough to know that he uses humor to deflect?

[Efesell]

All we're saying is that you're really blowing it out of proportion.

[krylo]

He doesn't use humor to deflect when something 'tears him apart inside'.

He demands to be made king so he can rectify it (Loghain), or lays into you like a chain saw (Letting Isolde/Connor die).

He uses humor to deflect things that are uncomfortable.

I have the same defense mechanism as him. Really. I know he uses humor to deflect, but you're making it out like "OH GOD BLOOD MAGIC ALL LIFE IS TERRIBLE AND OVER" as opposed to "Well, this doesn't seem like the BEST idea, but I trust your judgment and if it will save both our lives..."

He's not happy about it in the latter, but it's also pretty hard to tell how much of that is "Ew Morrigan" and how much is "Ew Blood Magic."

The only other times in the game he shows a real disdain for Maleficarum is with Jowan, and he can be convinced that letting Jowan out was fine. If you use the blood magic to kill Isolde, he barely glazes over the fact it was blood magic when he tears into you for breaking up Eamon's family.

I've never noticed this hatred of Blood Magic you're claiming he has. He's uncomfortable with it, yes. He's uncomfortable with anything that breaks the law of the land, really. He was raised by the chantry, that's to be expected. However, his dislike of blood magic is about twenty notches lower than Wynne's.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 06:22 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I agree with both of you. He hates the idea, but with the exception of his reaction to losing everyone he cared about (understandably), he's not a brooder. He can be concerned about something--and really not have wanted to do it at all in the moment, but still not let it ruin his life. I think we're splitting hairs, here, and it's not really the best example, since it was about saving the last wardens in Fereldan.

I do think Alistair broods about things- look how long he chewed over Duncan.  And I do think it's relevant, because the Architect is also presenting a situation where you're asked to look at the greater good.  I don't see the good the Architect offers as being worth very much, so I'm biased in that respect, but I still believe Alistair would not agree to aid a talking darkspawn emissary.

If we want to pull the novels in, consider Maric's reaction to the whole idea.  My memory of the ending of The Calling is fuzzy, but I do seem to recall he was on the "hell no" side... correct me if I'm wrong.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I agree with both of you. He hates the idea, but with the exception of his reaction to losing everyone he cared about (understandably), he's not a brooder. He can be concerned about something--and really not have wanted to do it at all in the moment, but still not let it ruin his life. I think we're splitting hairs, here, and it's not really the best example, since it was about saving the last wardens in Fereldan.

I do think Alistair broods about things- look how long he chewed over Duncan.  And I do think it's relevant, because the Architect is also presenting a situation where you're asked to look at the greater good.  I don't see the good the Architect offers as being worth very much, so I'm biased in that respect, but I still believe Alistair would not agree to aid a talking darkspawn emissary.

If we want to pull the novels in, consider Maric's reaction to the whole idea.  My memory of the ending of The Calling is fuzzy, but I do seem to recall he was on the "hell no" side... correct me if I'm wrong.

Heh, you know I'm agreeing with you about that, right?

[Efesell]

The Duncan thing just seems like more of an example that if this dark ritual REALLY bothered him he wouldn't act jokingly about it at all.

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

I have the same defense mechanism as him. Really. I know he uses humor to deflect, but you're making it out like "OH GOD BLOOD MAGIC ALL LIFE IS TERRIBLE AND OVER" as opposed to "Well, this doesn't seem like the BEST idea, but I trust your judgment and if it will save both our lives..."

Uh, no I am not.  You said "he's totally ok with it" and I demonstrated that he's not.

The only other times in the game he shows a real disdain for Maleficarum is with Jowan, and he can be convinced that letting Jowan out was fine. If you use the blood magic to kill Isolde, he barely glazes over the fact it was blood magic when he tears into you for breaking up Eamon's family.

He does not gloss over the "how."  He says, rather forcefully, "Blood magic!  How could more evil be of any use here?"  (emphasis mine)  I am quite familiar with the disgust with which Alistair talks about blood magic, since I had a blood mage who was falling for him.  His reaction to blood magic in particular convinced her it wasn't going to work out.  He is not fanatical about it (not like, say, Wynne), but has an ingrained distaste.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 mars 2010 - 06:29 .

[Efesell]

He clearly doesn't LIKE blood magic, no one is saying otherwise. Hell no one but Blood Mages actually like the stuff.



But the real point of contention is what you are doing to Eamons family, not how you are doing it.

[Raiil]

I think the context in which he's joking about the demon baby has to be put into perspective, as someone else said. It's an extremely joyous occasion. He's bound to be happier than normal.



Additionally, the ritual is similar to blood magic, but it's not about domination or mind control. It's an ancient magic. Alistair is still reticent about the situation, but it's not the same as Avernus killing Wardens for science fair experiments. Insofar as the Warden and Alistair know, Morrigan is not suggesting that she's going to sire a child in order to sacrifice it. Ultimately it's a win/win situation for all parties involved; the PC and Alistair get to live, Morrigan gets her child.



Additionally, Morrigan herself has no love for darkspawn. She doesn't want to keep them alive. The Architect does. Alistair can be persuaded in most situations, but I think for this one it's akin to keeping Loghain- it goes against every fibre of his beliefs and being.

[Efesell]

Regarding the Architect I maintain that he could probably be talked into it by the Warden, albeit possibly with some difficulty.

At the very least I don't think it would end violently, he'd probably just storm off again.

[Vicious]

Alistair couldn't let Loghain walk due to his crimes, I sincerely doubt he would do anything but kill The Architect.

[Addai]

Valentia, Avernus is a good point as well. That is a situation where a mage was experimenting on Wardens, and Alistair reacts to that also. When Avernus says his experiments were necessary, Alistair puts on mad-face and says, "Having to relieve yourself after an 8-hour ride is necessary. But there's noooo justification for sacrificing your fellow Wardens." (paraphrased from memory, if someone has the actual line please quote)

P.S. Would that we could have had 8-hour rides... alas, the Orlesians must have eaten all of Ferelden's horse stock.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[Efesell]

Now, if he had knowledge of some things before, say about the architect waking up Urthemial and starting the blight, it'd a MUCH tougher sell.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...
Uh, no I am not.  You said "he's totally ok with it" and I demonstrated that he's not.

As I said. Hyperbole.

It is a technique used in persuasive speech and writing in which one makes exagerrated claims, generally in a half-joking manner.

 but has an ingrained distaste.

Which doesn't mean that it's a deal breaker.

I really don't see it being the deal breaker for him.  All the other things about the Architect are going to be so much more important to Alistair than blood magic that it's not even funny.

It's going to be in order of importance, something close to this: Vigil's Keep Assault = Trade Route manipulation > kidnapping Valena > being a darkspawn > wanting to stop blights > being intelligent > attempts to help defend Amaranthine = offer to help against Mother > that cheese sandwich he had earlier that put him in a good mood > the fact that there's maybe some blood magic involved somewhere.

I mean, really, the blood magic used would just be a reversal/copy paste of the Warden Joining.  It's not even like, the BAD kind of blood magic.  Or killing anyone over it.

Also: One line about it being evil = glossing over when he's having an entire conversation when he lays into you.  It's like just another bit of ammo to throw at you, not anywhere near the main point of his diatribe.

[Raiil]

Efesell wrote...

Regarding the Architect I maintain that he could probably be talked into it by the Warden, albeit possibly with some difficulty.
At the very least I don't think it would end violently, he'd probably just storm off again.

Oh I doubt he'd try to kill anyone- the boy has such a Jesus complex it's insane. (In that he feels the need to save everyone, not that he's pivotally important to everything.) But I don't see it being on the same level as the dark ritual, which was something intensely personal. This affects everyone, and I can't see a clear path as to what would possibly convince him to spare the creature responsible for the fifth blight.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

Valentia, Avernus is a good point as well. That is a situation where a mage was experimenting on Wardens, and Alistair reacts to that also. When Avernus says his experiments were necessary, Alistair puts on mad-face and says, "Having to relieve yourself after an 8-hour ride is necessary. But there's noooo justification for sacrificing your fellow Wardens." (paraphrased from memory, if someone has the actual line please quote)

P.S. Would that we could have had 8-hour rides... alas, the Orlesians must have eaten all of Ferelden's horse stock.

Again, this is more about killing wardens than magic.

The magic is NOT what he's pissed about.  It's what the magic was USED for.


Edit: I'd give Alistair an eight hour ride.

Wink wink, nudge nudge.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 06:39 .

[Efesell]

Also the Architect situation may workout until someone reminds him of Duncan.

Then he might hulk out.

[Raiil]

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Valentia, Avernus is a good point as well. That is a situation where a mage was experimenting on Wardens, and Alistair reacts to that also. When Avernus says his experiments were necessary, Alistair puts on mad-face and says, "Having to relieve yourself after an 8-hour ride is necessary. But there's noooo justification for sacrificing your fellow Wardens." (paraphrased from memory, if someone has the actual line please quote)

P.S. Would that we could have had 8-hour rides... alas, the Orlesians must have eaten all of Ferelden's horse stock.

Again, this is more about killing wardens than magic.

The magic is NOT what he's pissed about.  It's what the magic was USED for.


Edit: I'd give Alistair an eight hour ride.

Wink wink, nudge nudge.

I do believe that the intention counts for a lot (after all, Alistair has never complained about me using Virulent Walking Bomb on darkspawn, which is just as messy) but I think that the methods involved are important as well. With the exception of any party member mages who use blood magic, all the signs we see of it are used for rather horrific reasons. Even Jowan's, which was used by a rather innocent person (he's an idiot, but not particularly maleficent), has devastating ends. Blood magic in lore is used for bad reasons. Alistair would have been pissed regardless of how Avernus went about using his chemistry set on the Wardens, but using blood magic in particular made it that much more loathsome. It's not a black or white issue; it's complex with a lot of layers.


And if you're planning on an eight hour ride, you're going to need one of Oghren's minty balms afterwards.

[krylo]

Valentia X wrote...

I do believe that the intention counts for a lot (after all, Alistair has never complained about me using Virulent Walking Bomb on darkspawn, which is just as messy) but I think that the methods involved are important as well. With the exception of any party member mages who use blood magic, all the signs we see of it are used for rather horrific reasons. Even Jowan's, which was used by a rather innocent person (he's an idiot, but not particularly maleficent), has devastating ends. Blood magic in lore is used for bad reasons. Alistair would have been pissed regardless of how Avernus went about using his chemistry set on the Wardens, but using blood magic in particular made it that much more loathsome. It's not a black or white issue; it's complex with a lot of layers.

This I agree with, except I don't think that Jowan actually ever used blood magic for evil.

It caused terrible things, namely regarding Lily, but only due to the laws against it.  The only times he actually uses blood magic are to put asleep the templars/Irving in an attempt to escape with Lily.  When she won't leave he runs off alone.  No actual harm done there.  And to kill Isolde, but that was a "Risk the city being destroyed, kill a child, or allow the mother a chance to save the child's life" situation, so I wouldn't call that horrific either.

The only horrific thing he did was poison Eamon, and, again, the only way blood magic is connected to it is in that blood magic is illegal

Blaming Blood Magic for Jowan would be like blaming pot for people being thrown in prison for smoking it.

And if you're planning on an eight hour ride, you're going to need one of Oghren's minty balms afterwards.

Eight hours with a few breaks.  I'm sure we'll both need a bit of a refractory period break once or twice.

[Raiil]

krylo wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I do believe that the intention counts for a lot (after all, Alistair has never complained about me using Virulent Walking Bomb on darkspawn, which is just as messy) but I think that the methods involved are important as well. With the exception of any party member mages who use blood magic, all the signs we see of it are used for rather horrific reasons. Even Jowan's, which was used by a rather innocent person (he's an idiot, but not particularly maleficent), has devastating ends. Blood magic in lore is used for bad reasons. Alistair would have been pissed regardless of how Avernus went about using his chemistry set on the Wardens, but using blood magic in particular made it that much more loathsome. It's not a black or white issue; it's complex with a lot of layers.

This I agree with, except I don't think that Jowan actually ever used blood magic for evil.

It caused terrible things, namely regarding Lily, but only due to the laws against it.  The only times he actually uses blood magic are to put asleep the templars/Irving in an attempt to escape with Lily.  When she won't leave he runs off alone.  No actual harm done there.  And to kill Isolde, but that was a "Risk the city being destroyed, kill a child, or allow the mother a chance to save the child's life" situation, so I wouldn't call that horrific either.

The only horrific thing he did was poison Eamon, and, again, the only way blood magic is connected to it is in that blood magic is illegal

Blaming Blood Magic for Jowan would be like blaming pot for people being thrown in prison for smoking it.

I don't think Jowan is evil, either, just a giant sack of dumb. But it has horrific ends, by which he injured people before escaping. And I agree with the Eamon thing as well. And the Isolde/Connor/Mages Circle decision, with killing Isolde, is horrific as well. Not because Jowan is evil, but because a decent person dies. (No matter how much her TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAGAN annoys me.)

Eight hours with a few breaks.  I'm sure we'll both need a bit of a refractory period break once or twice.

Didn't Morrigan have some remarks on Grey Warden stamina?

[krylo]

Valentia X wrote...

I don't think Jowan is evil, either, just a giant sack of dumb. But it has horrific ends, by which he injured people before escaping.

I think they were merely knocked unconscious, not really hurt.  None of them seemed injured, anyway, when they got up.

And I agree with the Eamon thing as well. And the Isolde/Connor/Mages Circle decision, with killing Isolde, is horrific as well. Not because Jowan is evil, but because a decent person dies. (No matter how much her TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAGAN annoys me.)

It's considerably LESS horrific than killing a child, however.  And, logically, it's a better choice than leaving.  Had bioware written the scene in line with the dark fantasy they were suggesting it would be, blood magic would be the least horrific as that demon probably should have killed at least a few more people while you were gone instead of waiting patiently to be attacked.

Didn't Morrigan have some remarks on Grey Warden stamina?

All I know is that after two hours things get sore.

[Raiil]

krylo wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I don't think Jowan is evil, either, just a giant sack of dumb. But it has horrific ends, by which he injured people before escaping.

I think they were merely knocked unconscious, not really hurt.  None of them seemed injured, anyway, when they got up.

And I agree with the Eamon thing as well. And the Isolde/Connor/Mages Circle decision, with killing Isolde, is horrific as well. Not because Jowan is evil, but because a decent person dies. (No matter how much her TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAGAN annoys me.)

It's considerably LESS horrific than killing a child, however.  And, logically, it's a better choice than leaving.  Had bioware written the scene in line with the dark fantasy they were suggesting it would be, blood magic would be the least horrific as that demon probably should have killed at least a few more people while you were gone instead of waiting patiently to be attacked.

Didn't Morrigan have some remarks on Grey Warden stamina?

All I know is that after two hours things get sore.

Falling over in plate armour is painful, particuarly on hard stone. I doubt anyone was crippled, but if it has enough force to knock over a trained soldier wearing that heavy gear... someone is going to get hurt.

And while yes, killing Isolde is less horrible then killing Connor (if more satisfying), that doesn't change the fact that it's a horrific thing to have to do. Bad enough that you have to make the decision at all, worse that you have to go through with it. As for the logic of leaving, I have always left. But I leave Jowan alive to monitor the situation. Now that they have a mage to hold down the fort and Ser Perth and his men could access the castle again, my PC believed that it left enough time to fetch the mages and return. The town wasn't being left entirely undefended.

[errant_knight]

Okay, someone needs to bring it back around to Awakening and Alistair again so this doesn't become yet another Redcliffe thread.

[Addai]

[quote]krylo wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...
Uh, no I am not.  You said "he's totally ok with it" and I demonstrated that he's not.[/quote]As I said. Hyperbole.

It is a technique used in persuasive speech and writing in which one makes exagerrated claims, generally in a half-joking manner.[/quote][/quote]
No one likes a smart-ass.    Even if you were being hyperbolic, others have chimed in saying the same thing straightforwardly.
[quote][quote]
 but has an ingrained distaste.
[/quote]Which doesn't mean that it's a deal breaker.

I really don't see it being the deal breaker for him.  All the other things about the Architect are going to be so much more important to Alistair than blood magic that it's not even funny.[/quote][/quote]
I also didn't say that it was the only or most important thing.  It's one among others, but dark magic definitely is one of the things that triggers Alistair's red flags about a situation.

[quote]I mean, really, the blood magic used would just be a reversal/copy paste of the Warden Joining.  It's not even like, the BAD kind of blood magic.  Or killing anyone over it.

[/quote]
Well, the Joining kills people, too.  However, the scale of what the Architect wants to do, and the fact that he wants to taint humanity, figures in.