153 réponses à ce sujet

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

 the fact that he wants to taint humanity, figures in.

Alistair wouldn't know that.  We don't even know that as his 'taint humanity' thing was brought on by the idea that tainted beings and untainted beings will always fight but tainted beings all just hold hands and dance in circles around tulips or whatever.  Mother disproved his theory in that, so whether that is still one of his goals is up in the air.  It's certainly never mentioned or hinted at in game.

[BlueMew]

UrsulaCousland wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Despite all the flack he gets, Alistair does have a way of cutting through the bull****. Also, he is an ultimate example of a guy who does not believe the ends justify the means. These days, a lot of people are all for the end justifying the means but that's not necessarily a good thing. Holding on to and standing up for ones ideals is a virtue and a defining characteristic of heros. Alistair is certainly a man who does that. So you know, your PC might be pragmatic sort but Alistair, even hardened Alistair, is more an idealist. People bash idealists a lot these days but I don't think its really fair. Ideals are good things, you should stand-up for them even if they get you killed.

Well said.

Indeed. I couldn't have said this better.

Well, seeing as I like unkinged (and un-hardened, if given half a chance) Alistair the best -- idealists unite! It's what I like best about him, really, finally a character that can be idealistic and still a sarcastic bastard (of the fatherless kind) that behaves like a monkey from time to time

But yes, saving those who can't defend themselves (with or without any possible kittens) sounds like him. Hmmm, come to think of it, I myself would simply go wherever the fluffy kittens were. *nodnod*

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

 the fact that he wants to taint humanity, figures in.

Alistair wouldn't know that.  We don't even know that as his 'taint humanity' thing was brought on by the idea that tainted beings and untainted beings will always fight but tainted beings all just hold hands and dance in circles around tulips or whatever.  Mother disproved his theory in that, so whether that is still one of his goals is up in the air.  It's certainly never mentioned or hinted at in game.

His lair full of ghouls is a pretty convincing tell.

[errant_knight]

BlueMew wrote...

UrsulaCousland wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Despite all the flack he gets, Alistair does have a way of cutting through the bull****. Also, he is an ultimate example of a guy who does not believe the ends justify the means. These days, a lot of people are all for the end justifying the means but that's not necessarily a good thing. Holding on to and standing up for ones ideals is a virtue and a defining characteristic of heros. Alistair is certainly a man who does that. So you know, your PC might be pragmatic sort but Alistair, even hardened Alistair, is more an idealist. People bash idealists a lot these days but I don't think its really fair. Ideals are good things, you should stand-up for them even if they get you killed.

Well said.

Indeed. I couldn't have said this better.

Well, seeing as I like unkinged (and un-hardened, if given half a chance) Alistair the best -- idealists unite! It's what I like best about him, really, finally a character that can be idealistic and still a sarcastic bastard (of the fatherless kind) that behaves like a monkey from time to time

But yes, saving those who can't defend themselves (with or without any possible kittens) sounds like him. Hmmm, come to think of it, I myself would simply go wherever the fluffy kittens were. *nodnod*

Just out of curiosity, how do you see Alistair as being different from this when hardened, king or not? I don't see it as affecting his character at all, just making him more confident in his abilities and opinions.

[BlueMew]

errant_knight wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

UrsulaCousland wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Despite all the flack he gets, Alistair does have a way of cutting through the bull****. Also, he is an ultimate example of a guy who does not believe the ends justify the means. These days, a lot of people are all for the end justifying the means but that's not necessarily a good thing. Holding on to and standing up for ones ideals is a virtue and a defining characteristic of heros. Alistair is certainly a man who does that. So you know, your PC might be pragmatic sort but Alistair, even hardened Alistair, is more an idealist. People bash idealists a lot these days but I don't think its really fair. Ideals are good things, you should stand-up for them even if they get you killed.

Well said.

Indeed. I couldn't have said this better.

Well, seeing as I like unkinged (and un-hardened, if given half a chance) Alistair the best -- idealists unite! It's what I like best about him, really, finally a character that can be idealistic and still a sarcastic bastard (of the fatherless kind) that behaves like a monkey from time to time

But yes, saving those who can't defend themselves (with or without any possible kittens) sounds like him. Hmmm, come to think of it, I myself would simply go wherever the fluffy kittens were. *nodnod*

Just out of curiosity, how do you see Alistair as being different from this when hardened, king or not? I don't see it as affecting his character at all, just making him more confident in his abilities and opinions.

Not regarding ethics, no. I'd say it's pretty much the same, I just meant that if he's more authorative, it makes for a different kind of idealist. Even if the outcome is somewhat the same, there is a difference between "Loghain needs to die, let's just do it" and "Alright, I didn't want to be king, but I do want it now so I can kill the bugger."
I'm one of the people who prefers the first option (must be my own anti-authoritarian streak), but I agree that as per convictions... no difference.

[Red Frostraven]

When you harden Ali and let Loghain live... Alistair ends up as a drunk.
...
Does the same happen if you let him remain squishy and let Loghain live?

In any case, Ali would save the helpless.
And bring everyone from the keep with him.
Seriously.
Why not save both factions?

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 27 mars 2010 - 11:14 .

[nos_astra]

Red Frostraven wrote...

When you harden Ali and let Loghain live... Alistair ends up as a drunk.
...
Does the same happen if you let him remain squishy and let Loghain live?

The only difference is that you still can make him marry Anora when he's hardened otherwise he'll leave.

[Ash Wind]

I think he would try to save the village... especially if someone else suggested it first.

[ejoslin]

I may be in a minority here, but I think Alistair may actually let the village burn. He doesn't even disapprove much if you let Redcliff go. He'd feel bad about it for sure, but I think he'd go for saving the most people and giving the best chance for defeating the darkspawn.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

I think it would be hard choice for anyone to make. But I think he would save the town.

[blademaster7]

Alistair is the last person I would ask for advice when I had to make a decision like that. I imagine he'll end up moaning in the end no matter what you decided to do. Kinda like the Connor decision, except there is no Plan C this time to save everyone and keep Alistair happy.

I would much rather listen to what Duncan, Riordan and Loghain had to say on the matter. I think all three of them will agree that saving the keep is more important.

[ejoslin]

blademaster7 wrote...

Alistair is the last person I would ask for advice when I had to make a decision like that. I imagine he'll end up moaning in the end no matter what you decided to do. Kinda like the Connor decision, except there is no Plan C this time to save everyone and keep Alistair happy.

I would much rather listen to what Duncan, Riordan and Loghain had to say on the matter. I think all three of them will agree that saving the keep is more important.

The reason I chose the keep over the village was that story from the Human Noble origin, when Ser Gilmore talks about Grey Wardens burning villages to the ground to save many more from darkspawn.  It seemed to be the same type of situation there.  Most people dead or tainted.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2010 - 02:45 .

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

I may be in a minority here, but I think Alistair may actually let the village burn. He doesn't even disapprove much if you let Redcliff go. He'd feel bad about it for sure, but I think he'd go for saving the most people and giving the best chance for defeating the darkspawn.

Th difference with Redcliffe is that it's time taken from dealing with the Blight and, since it's not a darkspawn threat, he can see it that way. If he thinks that a Warden's duty is to protect people from darkspawn, I think he would prefer to protect civilians in the city over Wardens and soldiers at the Keep. 

As for what he would do once you get to the city and everyone is advocating for burning it to the ground, I don't know for certain. Judging from his comments about how bad he felt when you leave Lothering to its own devices, I would think that the risk of trying to save anyone that can possibly be saved is worth it to him. His philosophy is quite a bit different from the one espoused via Ser Gilmore's story about burning villages to help prevent the spread of the taint.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2010 - 04:20 .

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I may be in a minority here, but I think Alistair may actually let the village burn. He doesn't even disapprove much if you let Redcliff go. He'd feel bad about it for sure, but I think he'd go for saving the most people and giving the best chance for defeating the darkspawn.

Th difference with Redcliffe is that it's time taken from dealing with the Blight and, since it's not a darkspawn threat, he can see it that way. If he thinks that a Warden's duty is to protect people from darkspawn, I think he would prefer to protect civilians in the city over Wardens and soldiers at the Keep. 

As for what he would do once you get to the city and everyone is advocating for burning it to the ground, I don't know for certain. Judging from his comments about how bad he felt when you leave Lothering to its own devices, I would think that the risk of trying to save anyone that can possibly be saved is worth it to him. His philosophy is quite a bit different from the one espoused via Ser Gilmore's story about burning villages to help prevent the spread of the taint.

Agreed. His reaction to leaving Lothering is what nails it for me.

[Sarah1281]

He'd feel bad about it for sure, but I think he'd go for saving the most people and giving the best chance for defeating the darkspawn.

But there are more people in the city than at the Keep so how would that work?

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He'd feel bad about it for sure, but I think he'd go for saving the most people and giving the best chance for defeating the darkspawn.

But there are more people in the city than at the Keep so how would that work?

Most are dead or tainted.

[magnuskn]

Thalorin1919 wrote...
But I think if Alistair also found it that the Architect was responsible for the Blights in the first place, I think he would flip out and try to kill him.

Wait, what?!? I thought the Architect was responsible for a blight, as in one singular blight.

Sarah1281 wrote...
I
can see him turning on the Architect for the Fifth Blight - which he
can blame on him even more than Loghain as without intelligent darkspawn
the battle wouldn't have been as much of a disaster, the beacon would
have been lit on time, and Loghain might not even have left - once the
Mother was dead. Of course, given that intelligent darkspawn were
responsible for Ostagar and by all accounts the Architect intends to
make them smarter than that...it really depends on if he's made any more
progresse getting over what happened than he had at the end of
Origins.

Again, WHAT?!? How did the intelligent darkspawn figure into Ostagar? I never saw that information anywhere.

Modifié par magnuskn, 27 mars 2010 - 10:46 .

[errant_knight]

magnuskn wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...
But I think if Alistair also found it that the Architect was responsible for the Blights in the first place, I think he would flip out and try to kill him.

Wait, what?!? I thought the Architect was responsible for a blight, as in one singular blight.

Sarah1281 wrote...
I
can see him turning on the Architect for the Fifth Blight - which he
can blame on him even more than Loghain as without intelligent darkspawn
the battle wouldn't have been as much of a disaster, the beacon would
have been lit on time, and Loghain might not even have left - once the
Mother was dead. Of course, given that intelligent darkspawn were
responsible for Ostagar and by all accounts the Architect intends to
make them smarter than that...it really depends on if he's made any more
progresse getting over what happened than he had at the end of
Origins.

Again, WHAT?!? How did the intelligent darkspawn figure into Ostagar? I never saw that information anywhere.

The Architect was only responsible for the most recent blight, and intelligent darkspawn are brand spankin' new. Doesn't mean none of them had been created at that time, but we have no indication that they were.

[magnuskn]

errant_knight wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...
But I think if Alistair also found it that the Architect was responsible for the Blights in the first place, I think he would flip out and try to kill him.

Wait, what?!? I thought the Architect was responsible for a blight, as in one singular blight.

Sarah1281 wrote...
I
can see him turning on the Architect for the Fifth Blight - which he
can blame on him even more than Loghain as without intelligent darkspawn
the battle wouldn't have been as much of a disaster, the beacon would
have been lit on time, and Loghain might not even have left - once the
Mother was dead. Of course, given that intelligent darkspawn were
responsible for Ostagar and by all accounts the Architect intends to
make them smarter than that...it really depends on if he's made any more
progresse getting over what happened than he had at the end of
Origins.

Again, WHAT?!? How did the intelligent darkspawn figure into Ostagar? I never saw that information anywhere.

The Architect was only responsible for the most recent blight, and intelligent darkspawn are brand spankin' new. Doesn't mean none of them had been created at that time, but we have no indication that they were.

Oh, good, so the first was wrong and the second speculation. I really would have doubted my perception skills if I had missed both of these things. Thanks for the clear-up! :happy:

[Sarah1281]

Again, WHAT?!? How did the intelligent darkspawn figure into Ostagar? I never saw that information anywhere.

They didn't, but if it hadn't been a Blight (which the Architect caused) but just a big raid like Cailan and Loghian seemed to think it was then the battle,while it may not have been won, surely wouldn't have been such an unmitigated disaster and since the Blight was the Architect's fault in the first place Alistair could blame Ostagar on him.

[magnuskn]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Again, WHAT?!? How did the intelligent darkspawn figure into Ostagar? I never saw that information anywhere.

They didn't, but if it hadn't been a Blight (which the Architect caused) but just a big raid like Cailan and Loghian seemed to think it was then the battle,while it may not have been won, surely wouldn't have been such an unmitigated disaster and since the Blight was the Architect's fault in the first place Alistair could blame Ostagar on him.

Ooh, okay. Well, it'd be a lot of thinking-around-the-corner, which I don't see as really fitting for the situation.

I let the Architect go in my first play-through, something I really regret now. But it was rather a spur-of-the-moment decision, going by the line of thought about self-determinism, etc.. Thinking it through better, I'd kill the bastard now, which I will do with my new play-through.

[SurelyForth]

I just did a "burn Amaranthine" ending and I stand by my opinion that Alistair would choose the city. There was definitely a good chance of there being untainted civilians alive in Amaranthine and, surprisingly enough, Anders pointed out that we would be no better than the darkspawn if we destroyed the city without trying to save them. I felt tremendously guilty abandoning the citizens (and the freaking cutscene didn't help matters at all).

I think he'd also agree that playing the siege at Vigil's Keep is infinitely more fun than saving Amaranthine. They put so much more effort into the former that it's almost mind-boggling. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2010 - 11:23 .

[Sarah1281]

Although, as always, trying to keep all of the suicidal guards who don't even have the decency to have a health bar alive is one of the more challenging parts in the game.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 mars 2010 - 11:45 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, the epilogue cards regarding your win may actually be the same with both options, but it certainly seemed to work out well if you burned the city, militarily at least.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, the epilogue cards regarding your win may actually be the same with both options, but it certainly seemed to work out well if you burned the city, militarily at least.

They're definitely not the same. I did it back to back, and if you save the city it's all positive (it is restored within a year). If you destroy it, Ferelden is mad at the Wardens, there are rumors that my PC did it on purpose as groundwork for a power play and it turns into a cesspool.

The biggest benefit to burning the city down seems to be that the Keep doesn't need five years to rebuild and none of your companions die in the battle.