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[Lord Coake]

I support the Illusive Man...

































Getting his head split like an overripe melon with a Mattock shell.

[OBakaSama]

Does Retribution provide many clues for TIM's role in ME3? From reading the last page, the canon story seems to be that Shepard is generally a renegade.



A side thought. I think Miranda mentions that Cerberus also dabbles in politics. How deep does TIM have interests there? How many strings is he pulling behind the scenes (sorry, I'm a game only sort of guy)? Is Udina such a pain to Shepard because TIM wants Shepard to be working 'directly' for Cerberus? Hm....

[Kim Shepard]

@Ashwraith: Thanks. How about this one? "Smoke 'em if you got 'em, because none of us is going to see tomorrow."

I don't know all the information about TIM's plans for Grayson, but I keep wondering why he would attempt something so dangerous and then stay so close to it. It would have made more sense for him to be there in hologram form only. Staying far away from Reaper tech seems like a good idea to me. Revenge can be just as sweet if you're watching it through a hologram, TIM. xD

Reading about TIM in combat was awesome. We'll probably see more of that in the comics whenever they come out. (I wonder if he fought in the First Contact War. He said it was about 30 years since he was last in combat. I hope he wasn't the one who killed my favorite character's brother though.) I'm just glad he survived the attack. I like Kai Leng. If only he could have been the Cerberus male squadmate instead of Jacob, he would always be in my squad. The downside is that he gets so close to his enemies, I'd accidently shoot him a few times... or maybe I could just not shoot at all, and just watch him take care of it.

@OBakaSama: If canon Shepard is the same as the default ME2 Shepard, then he's definitely Renegade. It seems like the canon says that Udina is councillor and TIM got the Collector base (unless he managed to get Reaper tech from somewhere else, like maybe the derelict Reaper).

The only thing I know for sure about TIM and politics is that he used an assassination to put Saracino in charge of Terra Firma.

[OBakaSama]

Ah...thanks. I forgot about Terra Firma. Actually, given Thane's loyalty quest concerning the Turian political candidate I'm surprised they didn't sneak in some Terra Firma campaigning.



On my default run Udina was councillor. (Still be funny if TIM had the power to put him there though...)



I need to do some reading when I have time; I feel like I'm missing out. At least I read Redemption. TIM sure is sneaky. Alien hating or not (which doesn't really come across in ME2), he sure knows how to use the resources available to him.

[Ashwraith]

Kim Shepard wrote...

@Ashwraith: Thanks. How about this one? "Smoke 'em if you got 'em, because none of us is going to see tomorrow."

No problem. c:
As for the above quote, I believe it originated during World War II. When faced with a situation in which it appears there is no escape (in other words, impending doom), you might as well light up- because the health effects no longer matter.
...
Of course, it's also slang for "well, we're going to be here for a while; do something to occupy your time".

/nerd

Modifié par Ashwraith, 14 août 2010 - 01:46 .

[Ashwraith]

EDIT: Double post aaaaaargh. ಠ_ಠ

Modifié par Ashwraith, 14 août 2010 - 01:45 .

[Lambda Faction]

@Lord Coake: Geez, people that dislike T.I.M., are really violent. Let us all take chill pills and share a glass of good wine. (Joking aside, that made me laugh. )

As for the books being cannon, hard to say. I know a few series have off-shoots (lack of a better word) that will have cannon/non-cannon wrapped into a book/comic/what-have-you package. Seems like it is clarified later (in this case, the game or developers) what is really cannon plot. Dead Space comes to mind on this same token.

Also - Udina is an all around ass. Book, game, I see no inconsistency. Typical politician of sorts, methinks. I am also inclined to say: I third the liking of Kai Leng on the topic of Retribution anddddd I will admit T.I.M. combat was kind of awesome. It makes up for the disappointment of characterization a little.

Modifié par Lambda Faction, 14 août 2010 - 05:54 .

[jbblue05]

 I don't get why Cerberus is called anti-alien they seem just pro-humanity to me

Does anybody know what Cerberus did to get slander with the title "Anti-Alien
or is it just Alliance propaganda to cover up their dirty tracks
or is it because they have been connected with Terra Firma

TIM doesn't seem racist to me he actively works with aliens to further his goals 
TIM comes off as a guy who respects his roots and is loyal to Humanity

[Lord Coake]

jbblue05 wrote...

 I don't get why Cerberus is called anti-alien they seem just pro-humanity to me

Does anybody know what Cerberus did to get slander with the title "Anti-Alien
or is it just Alliance propaganda to cover up their dirty tracks
or is it because they have been connected with Terra Firma

TIM doesn't seem racist to me he actively works with aliens to further his goals 
TIM comes off as a guy who respects his roots and is loyal to Humanity

At the expense of every other race.

TIM/Cerberus doesn't just want humankind secure, he/they want humanity on top.  At all costs.  They don't want humanity to be a part of a galactic community, they want humanity to be aprat from the galactic community.  Looking down.

Never, under any circumstances, will any human actually worth a damn be a party to such a tyrranical power grab.

Screw TIM and Cerberus.  Humanity will stand shoulder to shoulder and back to back with the other denizens of the galaxy, not lord over them with an iron fist.  Thus says my Sehpard.

I'll never forgive WH40K for making GRIMDARK and GRIMEDGEY with a side of PURGE THE XENO look like the pinnacle of science fiction.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 14 août 2010 - 07:55 .

[Sharptooth]

It's ironic that TIM has to be about the most debated character in ME2 (or perhaps the series) as of yet, however, his own thread is even less popular than Mordin's.

[Lord Coake]

Thats because while Morinth is a sociopath murderer that needs to die, TIM is a failure at attempting to be a magnificent bastard, and is nothing more than a stringpulling, self-righteous CEO that needs to die.

[Lambda Faction]

I'm under the impression that Cerberus is not Anti-Alien as an organization. Even if Cerberus has inclinations, it would lean towards Pro-Humanity. It's their connection with/to the Terra Firma party and hired hands that may make it seem entirely Anti-Alien on occasion.



If you think about it, it's almost a strategic move. Use them to further your own goals, whatever they may be. Somewhat in line with the alliance with Shepard and putting people in positions of power within the Alliance itself. (On that note, I hope I have my facts straight. Shouldn't really post when I'm half tired. Forget if it's cannon. Magicwordoftheday. )



Honestly, I don't think we're given a wide enough scope of the species, Citadel space or otherwise. The game very much focuses on the struggles of Shepard and his/her crew. It will always have a human slant, Shepard's in particular. We are not given enough information on other species to make any judgment pertaining to a particular power-struggle or organization. They may very well have the same thoughts in mind for their respective kind.



Also... who's to say anyone else isn't self-pretentious? No better than Tali and the Geth. Garrus and Omega. It is what it is, being a bastard or not. (Er... and I think Sharptooth was mentioning Mordin Solus the Salarian. :X)



@Sharptooth: Ah, yes. I wondered about that. Was starting to think it was me. Hanging in there, though.

[Ulathar]

Wow, this is strange. I didn't even know TIM has his own thread

I mean, I'm in the TIM group, even though it's not really active - just showing presense ^^



I support TIM. He's a great and well developed character with amazing VO. Looking forward to seeing more of him in ME3 and most of my decisions in ME2 were pro-human. Yes, human, not Cerberus, because they....are one and the same

[jbblue05]

Lord Coake wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

 I don't get why Cerberus is called anti-alien they seem just pro-humanity to me

Does anybody know what Cerberus did to get slander with the title "Anti-Alien
or is it just Alliance propaganda to cover up their dirty tracks
or is it because they have been connected with Terra Firma

TIM doesn't seem racist to me he actively works with aliens to further his goals 
TIM comes off as a guy who respects his roots and is loyal to Humanity

At the expense of every other race.

TIM/Cerberus doesn't just want humankind secure, he/they want humanity on top.  At all costs.  They don't want humanity to be a part of a galactic community, they want humanity to be aprat from the galactic community.  Looking down.

Never, under any circumstances, will any human actually worth a damn be a party to such a tyrranical power grab.

Screw TIM and Cerberus.  Humanity will stand shoulder to shoulder and back to back with the other denizens of the galaxy, not lord over them with an iron fist.  Thus says my Sehpard.

I'll never forgive WH40K for making GRIMDARK and GRIMEDGEY with a side of PURGE THE XENO look like the pinnacle of science fiction.

 I need evidence.
Back up your reason as far as we've been told Cerberus is anti-alien but what are their crimes against aliens???? 

[OBakaSama]

Nice.

@Sharptooth: I think it's the decisions made rather than the character of TIM that was under scrutiny? I haven't been on the boards long enough so I could be wrong.

Propaganda or no, Cerberus has a reputation of being a terrorist organisation. They have definitely been involved in some morally questionable things, but those could be rationalised away by a particular cell going rogue. The Lazarus cell is probably the most noble of them all (though I admit my knowledge is pretty much limited to the games only), and the personnel on the SR2 don't seem to be anti-alien. Kelly probably explains it best with her dog shelter analogy, but while it doesn't necessarily exclude other alien species what they, Cerberus, do to further humanity plays a huge role to whether there is an anti-alien bias. The crew upon the SR2 certainly don't seem to have any anti-alien bias, and that can't be said of the original Alliance crew on the SR1. If anything, the Cerberus crew were more accepting of aliens than the Alliance crew.

From what I know, TIM is biased towards aliens, but he does keep it in check. Redemption (my only non-game source of info) shows he's willing to have aliens work for him to achieve his goals, i.e., Feron and Liara. For someone who says "information is my weapon" (or something like that) I don't think he can allow the prejudice he may have stand in the way of his goals. He may not recogise aliens as having equal status as humans, but he can certainly find uses for them.

I think the characters of Kasumi and Zaeed also show just how far TIM is willing to do what is necessary to achieve his goals of the preservation and betterment of humanity. Kasumi has stolen from Cerberus if I recall correctly, but TIM makes it so that she will work for Cerberus (albeit indirectly). Zaeed professes to have killed 50 Cerberus operatives if you talk to him, and he comments that TIM "must be big on forgiveness".

What makes TIM dangerous is that he's cold and calculating.

One thought did strike me though. Suppose Shepard destroyed the Collector base at the end of ME2 and that decision is carried over to ME3. Supposedly it seems that paragon Shepard has left Cerberus (Miranda actually quits), and I think Jacob mentions that Cerberus would be after them as well now. I think TIM would belay that, at least until after the Reaper threat is dealt with. But there's that mission where Shepard has to find the undercover Cerberus operative, and you get to choose where that data goes (Alliance, Cerberus or keep it for yourself). Suppose Shepard keeps it for himself as an insurance policy against TIM. Can't imagine TIM would be pleased with that...

That's it. I'm out....

Modifié par OBakaSama, 14 août 2010 - 03:47 .

[Kim Shepard]

@OBakaSama: I like all three books. Retribution and Ascension have the most information about TIM and Grayson (the events in Ascension happen first, if you want to read them in order). Revelation is about Saren and Anderson, so TIM's not in that one.

@Ashwraith: Awesome. I bet TIM would have used that quote 30 years ago in his last combat situations.

Anyone know the release date for those comics? It would be cool to see TIM in battle back when he was at his best. I wonder what class he would be. I don't think he has biotics, or he would have used them. Does he have any tech skills? Soldier seems the most likely for now, probably because of the assault rifle. He didn't want to join my Shepard for the final battle... and she asked too. She needs to recruit him and Kai Leng in ME3.

Cerberus is definitely a pro-human organization. All of the members probably want to help increase humanity's influence in the galaxy, but they don't all hate aliens. Kelly obviously doesn't. Kai Leng does. TIM at least doesn't seem to mind working with aliens, or admitting their talents. He says each member of the ME2 team is one of the best, and that team includes a lot of aliens. It also didn't bother him to work with Aria nearly as much as it bothered Kai Leng. (I can't blame him though. His thoughts about the people in Afterlife and that asari who winked at him were pretty similar to my thoughts about the unwelcome asari flirting from the games. There just aren't enough Renegade Interrupts. xD)

[OBakaSama]

It's true that Cerberus is pro-human. Never any doubt about that. There is a conversation with Miranda where she laments that Cerberus does attract too many of the xenophobes to their cause.



On the renegade thing. It's hard to pick up a lot of renegade points. The game makes it easier to be a paragon I think. That or I'm not trying hard enough. Currently working on a renegade Shepard to TIM's (paragon) persuasiveness.

[Kim Shepard]

It's interesting that Miranda thinks Cerberus attracts too many xenophobes, because that's actually one of the reasons why Kai Leng was recruited. TIM thought his anti-alien opinions were proof of his character, and that in combination with his skill made him a perfect recruit. Cerberus must have gone through a lot of trouble to recruit him too, since they had to break him out of an Alliance prison. I guess Miranda and Kai Leng wouldn't get along very well then.

My comment about the Renegade interrupts was kind of a joke, but I agree. Somehow, my main Shepard still has way more Paragon than Renegade, even though she gave TIM the base and went Renegade on half of the missions. No idea how that happened.

[Ashwraith]

I completely agree. Goddamn it is hard to be a Renegade in ME2. ಠ_ಠ
Hard... but worth it. The Renegade responses are by and large much more entertaining than the Paragon ones. ...My opinion, of course, but there you have it.



...You know what? It just occurred to me, there is something I think is hilarious. Notice how in the novels (and even in the game itself), various characters insist that Cerberus is xenocidal and horrible and oh my god they hate ALIENS, they are sick and WRONG?

I've read the novels and comics. I've played the games. And I have seen precisely one case of abhorrent behavior toward an alien.
I'm not sure it even counts, since the instigators were (quite gleefully) rogue operatives.

If anything -considering how every terrible experiment we know Cerberus is responsible for has been conducted on other humans-, Cerberus as a whole appears to be a bad case of 'Stop Helping Me'. >.>

Modifié par Ashwraith, 17 août 2010 - 03:48 .

[Kim Shepard]

I think the Renegade options are more entertaining too, at least most of the time. It's fun to watch Shepard do the same kind of awesome stuff I've seen in action movies.

Yeah, I've thought about that. Cerberus' projects seem to revolve around improving humanity at any cost, and even a lot of that is done by rogue factions. I don't think TIM wants to eliminate aliens either - he realizes their potential, and will use/team up with them if he needs to. He just wants humanity to have more power than everyone else.

That trope is hilarious. xD It made me think of what could happen if Kai Leng really was a squadmate.

Kai Leng: *sneaks up on the enemies*
Shepard: Enemies everywhere!
Kai Leng: *accidentally shoots* Stop helping me!

[MassEffect762]

I laugh every time I hear TIM doing radio commercials for Midas.

[PWENER]

I support killing TIM in ME3 and taking over Cerberus as the leading organization in the new Human lead galaxy.



If it wasn't for Cerberus, nobody would be planning on killing the Reapers... then we'd really be screwed.

[Kim Shepard]

That's why some of my Shepards who don't want a human-lead galaxy will stay with Cerberus anyway, because they're the only ones doing something about the Reapers. They're the only ones who did something about Shepard's death too. It would be amusing to watch a Cerberus-supporter Shepard point that out to the Council/Alliance. "We'd all be dead now if it wasn't for Cerberus!"

[Ashwraith]

Kim Shepard wrote...

That trope is hilarious. xD It made me think of what could happen if Kai Leng really was a squadmate.

Kai Leng: *sneaks up on the enemies*
Shepard: Enemies everywhere!
Kai Leng: *accidentally shoots* Stop helping me!

*SNORT* XD

I really should stop reading this thread while drinking tea at the same time. It inevitably results in hilarity and PAIN.

PWENER wrote...

I support killing TIM in ME3 and taking over Cerberus as the leading organization in the new Human lead galaxy.

If it wasn't for Cerberus, nobody would be planning on killing the Reapers... then we'd really be screwed.

Eh, he can keep Cerberus, as far as I'm concerned. I'd settle for just being his partner. I couldn't run the organization as stylishly anyway. ;3;

The most powerful man in the galaxy and the deadliest soldier in the galaxy? Hell yes the Reapers should be scared.

Kim Shepard wrote...

 It would
be amusing to watch a Cerberus-supporter Shepard point that out to the
Council/Alliance. "We'd all be dead now if it wasn't for Cerberus!"

That would be especially entertaining if Shepard actually destroyed the Collector base. XD
"MAKE UP YOUR MIND!"

Modifié par Ashwraith, 17 août 2010 - 05:34 .

[Kim Shepard]

Poor Kai Leng. xD Despite the battle jokes, I really do want him to be a squadmate in ME3. (And if he's a romance option, I'll finish an extra FemShep playthrough of both games faster than ever before.)

I bet that pro-Cerberus dialogue would still be open to a Shepard who destroyed the base too... technically, I don't think Shepard has to quit after destroying the base though. My paranoid kill-all-the-Cerberus-crew-and-Miranda Sole Survivor will, but his playthrough hasn't even reached ME2 yet. Everything keeps going wrong there. Maybe TIM just doesn't want any of my Shepards to betray him.

My MainShep has a nice little partnership with TIM right now, and I hope that doesn't change in ME3. Their whole relationship is built on favors. TIM resurrected Shepard, Shepard gave him the Cerberus data and the Collector base as a "thank you" present.