194 réponses à ce sujet

[TheTrooper1138]

Well, one thing that has been bothering me, since first playing ME2 is the fact, that after Shepard dies and is resurrected (or whatever) the question is never raised as to how much Shepard is really "Shepard". What I'm talking about is the more "philosophical"/religious question, as to how exactly one is still alive after being dead (well, you know what I mean ). Shepard was clinically dead if I'm not mistaken and not just for a few hours. He/She died after the Normandy has been blown up and would not have been recovered right away. Apparently the body was already starting to decay, so it must haven been more than a few days even.
So, I'm not trying to get all preachy (especially being an agnostic myself), but I think it is kinda cheap to use a matter as big as that as a plot device, without even discussing the "moral" points of it. It's like Shepard is just alive again and nobody seems to wonder (apart from everyone ****ing about Shep not being around)...
I hope you guys understand, what I'm talking about... 
Thoughts?

[smudboy]

Obviously a materialistic view of mind.

And yes, using a deus ex machina device, like resurrection, is poor writing. Within a story, and especially a sequel.

Let alone Shepard having the character development and opinion of a piece of cardboard. No arguments, no outbursts, no "since when could I bend metal with my hands?" scenes. Nada. Shepard remains our flat and static character, slowly pushing that plot forward.

[crimzontearz]

do you ever read the cerberus news? "resurrection" in one form or another is actually not unheard of...shepard just happens to have been "resurrected with the most advanced tech in the galaxy which explains why people are surprised but not full of moral and phylosophical questions about who or what he is now.



also



Shepard retained his memories, his moral compass, his emotions..he still feels, he still suffers he still rejoyces he still loves. Bioware goes a great length at the beginning of the game to hammer through that he is 100% shepard

[smudboy]

Being a BioWare game, I was totally guessing Shep'd have some visions or dream-communication with the enemy/Harbinger/whoever, due to his upgrades.

Maybe the dev's will say he was infused with Geth/Reaper tech and it'll happen in ME3. And you can finally hunt down TIM and thank him personally. With the Widow.

Shepard: "Dammit my shoulder hurts!"

[Marstead]

They discuss in the books about how after the discovery of the Prothean Ruins on Mars, the religions of Earth were rocked pretty much to the core. Ashley is an extremely rare example of a religious human in a post-Mass Effect world. All of the characters you run into who profess or mention religion (Ashley, Mordin, Thane) invite surprise or concern from Shepard.



My understanding is that the galaxy as a whole has pretty much abolished some of the more ludicrously specific mythologies in favor of broader philosophies like siari, buddhism, the quarians' ancestor worship and so on. There's no huge belief in a literal supernatural.



It would have been neat if it had been brought up in conversation beyond the Ashley email, though

[TheTrooper1138]

smudboy wrote...

Obviously a materialistic view of mind.
And yes, using a deus ex machina device, like resurrection, is poor writing. Within a story, and especially a sequel.
Let alone Shepard having the character development and opinion of a piece of cardboard. No arguments, no outbursts, no "since when could I bend metal with my hands?" scenes. Nada. Shepard remains our flat and static character, slowly pushing that plot forward.

well, I kinda like my Shepards, they're only as flat as you play them (), but because of that it bothers me even more... I mean, at least some of my Shepards would really have some thoughts on that matter, it would be great if Shepard could've some kind of emotional crisis about this, I mean we already have a councilor on board, why not give her something to do... 

[stormrain]

I think they deliberatley avoided it, seeing as it's such a controversial issue. Adressing the issue in-game would lead to so many horrific flame wars, it's not even funny.

[Saint Op]

well they do that half-assed interigation with him. I guess they figure it's his body, his body is now walking and talking....it's him.



But really what could they do sit around and ponder for an hour. Have a pope smack him with a cross.



Miranda: ......Shepard is it really you.



Shepard: ...Yes



Miranda: Put your hand on this stack of religious books and tell me that again....

[TheTrooper1138]

Marstead wrote...

They discuss in the books about how after the discovery of the Prothean Ruins on Mars, the religions of Earth were rocked pretty much to the core. Ashley is an extremely rare example of a religious human in a post-Mass Effect world. All of the characters you run into who profess or mention religion (Ashley, Mordin, Thane) invite surprise or concern from Shepard.

well, I haven't read the books (mainly because I don't want any canon Shepard... or does Shep not appear in those?), but I think it's pretty cheap that they don't have it IN THE GAME... at least have a short talk about it, I don't want to spend hours discovering Shep's personality again (wait, actually that would be nice, it's an RPG after all ), but at least bring it up in some way...

Marstead wrote...

My understanding is that the galaxy as a whole has pretty much abolished some of the more ludicrously specific mythologies in favor of broader philosophies like siari, buddhism, the quarians' ancestor worship and so on. There's no huge belief in a literal supernatural.

well, even in the less "specific" religions that would at least be worth some philosophical thought. Since you mention Buddhism, as you know in Buddhism the "soul" (or whatever) will be reincarnated... so when does that happen? What if it already has, how can it go back into Shepard's body then?  
Seriously though, as I said, at least some thoughts and dialogues on that matter would've been nice for immersion and all... 

Modifié par TheTrooper1138, 18 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[Ecael]

The resurrection was simply a plot device to give Shepard a reason to dissociate from the Alliance and introduce new characters, squadmates and a Normandy all within the first half hour of the game. If it were a deus ex machina, it would have occurred at the end of ME1 or later in ME2.

BioWare tries not to address political, religious or moral issues in their games. They were already lambasted for including a simple sex scene in Mass Effect 1 that could be played on a kids channel anywhere else in the world, so I doubt they'd be treated fairly if they decided to make the boss fight an actual Reaper embryo or discussed resurrection in detail.

I think they were already treading on the line when EDI mentioned that the Reaper baby was in its embryo stage:

Shepard: So it's not alive?

...

[Suron]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Obviously a materialistic view of mind.
And yes, using a deus ex machina device, like resurrection, is poor writing. Within a story, and especially a sequel.
Let alone Shepard having the character development and opinion of a piece of cardboard. No arguments, no outbursts, no "since when could I bend metal with my hands?" scenes. Nada. Shepard remains our flat and static character, slowly pushing that plot forward.

well, I kinda like my Shepards, they're only as flat as you play them (), but because of that it bothers me even more... I mean, at least some of my Shepards would really have some thoughts on that matter, it would be great if Shepard could've some kind of emotional crisis about this, I mean we already have a councilor on board, why not give her something to do... 

don't bother with him..he's a blatant anti-ME2 troll at the very least if not anti-bioware.

Now to the topic..yah some should have reacted a little more..esp someone as religious as Ashley...though male romancers of her wouldn't react kindly (on the forums/etc I mean..the players) to what her reaction should have been..which was to denounce you as a fake becaue of her beliefs..."Shepard" is dead...and probably in heaven (to her)...she'd view you as a walking copy of him and would probably NEVER accept that you are really him/her.

[smudboy]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Obviously a materialistic view of mind.
And yes, using a deus ex machina device, like resurrection, is poor writing. Within a story, and especially a sequel.
Let alone Shepard having the character development and opinion of a piece of cardboard. No arguments, no outbursts, no "since when could I bend metal with my hands?" scenes. Nada. Shepard remains our flat and static character, slowly pushing that plot forward.

well, I kinda like my Shepards, they're only as flat as you play them (), but because of that it bothers me even more... I mean, at least some of my Shepards would really have some thoughts on that matter, it would be great if Shepard could've some kind of emotional crisis about this, I mean we already have a councilor on board, why not give her something to do... 

Let's hope that was a joke, and the wink the indication of it!  I spend a great deal of time on these boards explaining that Shepard is by design a flat and static character, and there only a few scenes where we get to know what's on his/her mind.  Definitely not enough to contitute him/her being rounded, dynamic, conflicted, or having anything near an arc, in comparison to the side characters.  (Which I why I feel the romance scenes are somewhat lame.)

There are a handful of scenes where I wish the writers allowed Shepard to express an exact, particular, obvious feeling.   Nothing complex, but basic simple things we'd say in certain situations, especially the romance scenes.

[TheTrooper1138]

Ecael wrote...

The resurrection was simply a plot device to give Shepard a reason to dissociate from the Alliance and introduce new characters, squadmates and a Normandy all within the first half hour of the game. If it were a deus ex machina, it would have occurred at the end of ME1 or later in ME2.

BioWare tries not to address political, religious or moral issues in their games.
...

Then they shouldn't have let Shepard die. They did, so not addressing the matter is cheap.
They could've have Shep being barely alive or whatever for Cerberus to save him/her, but it's quite obvious that Shepard is 100% dead, before Cerberus get him/her.

Ecael wrote...

I think they were already treading on the line when EDI mentioned that the Reaper baby was in its embryo stage:

Shepard: So it's not alive?

...

I hope you're kidding... Here in Germany that would bother nobody, but then again, American right-wing Christians have been know to make a fuss over nothing... 

[smudboy]

Suron wrote...
don't bother with him..he's a blatant anti-ME2 troll at the very least if not anti-bioware.

Now to the topic..yah some should have reacted a little more..esp someone as religious as Ashley...though male romancers of her wouldn't react kindly (on the forums/etc I mean..the players) to what her reaction should have been..which was to denounce you as a fake becaue of her beliefs..."Shepard" is dead...and probably in heaven (to her)...she'd view you as a walking copy of him and would probably NEVER accept that you are really him/her.

If by anti-ME2 troll, you mean a smart, sexy opinionated beast.

That is an interesting view of Ashley's supposed reaction to Shepard, and definitely within her character.  Although if you romanced her, the email proves otherwise.

[Xaijin]

The intro should have been the ending: perfect cliffhanger. As for the new Normandy the first collector attack could have damaged with the Allieance unwilling to recoup the cost due to Shepard's Spectre-alienist status.

[TheTrooper1138]

Suron wrote...

Now to the topic..yah some should have reacted a little more..esp someone as religious as Ashley...though male romancers of her wouldn't react kindly (on the forums/etc I mean..the players) to what her reaction should have been..which was to denounce you as a fake becaue of her beliefs..."Shepard" is dead...and probably in heaven (to her)...she'd view you as a walking copy of him and would probably NEVER accept that you are really him/her.

now that would've been much more fun than the actual encounter with Ash! 

smudboy wrote...

Let's hope that was a joke, and the wink the indication of it!  I spend a great deal of time on these boards explaining that Shepard is by design a flat and static character, and there only a few scenes where we get to know what's on his/her mind.  Definitely not enough to contitute him/her being rounded, dynamic, conflicted, or having anything near an arc, in comparison to the side characters.  (Which I why I feel the romance scenes are somewhat lame.)

There are a handful of scenes where I wish the writers allowed Shepard to express an exact, particular, obvious feeling.   Nothing complex, but basic simple things we'd say in certain situations, especially the romance scenes.

What I meant to say was that it depends on how much you immerse yourself with your character... I think my Sheps are mostly interesting (except maybe that pure Renegade one I did to explore the options), since I try to really roleplay them, give them motivations, feelings etc.. So dying (and being resurrected) would really make at least some of them think, maybe even start questioning themselves or something, so that Kelly would really be needed... now that would be role-playing! Or they could've just left Shepard alive and use another plot device... <_<

Modifié par TheTrooper1138, 18 mars 2010 - 02:42 .

[Mondo47]

Shep does say to Jack at one point that he's 'technically undead' to try and demonstrate he's more ****ed up than her... I thought that was cute

Seriously though, as for the whole resurrection thing... it is sci-fi we talking about here. I mean, people have been cloned, downloaded into robots, turned into clouds of nanomachines, brought back from the dead, knocked up alien space babes in full defiance of nature, survived all kinds of impossible near-death experiences, uploaded into new bodies, turned into completely new species... it's not always discussed. Sometimes rayguns/matter transmitters/quantum drives/plot devices just work. And sometimes you don't want to have to be a physicist or a philosopher to 'get it'.

It would have been nice for Shepard to perhaps muse on it more, yes, or other characters to contemplate the ethics of such an experiment, or even a discussion of the science involved, but it's not a deal-breaker to me. If the raygun zaps the monster, no biggie. I won't mind too much that I wasn't told what kind of batteries it used or which unethical mining project made the lens for it if the rest of the story takes me on a nice little escapist ride.

[Ecael]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

The resurrection was simply a plot device to give Shepard a reason to dissociate from the Alliance and introduce new characters, squadmates and a Normandy all within the first half hour of the game. If it were a deus ex machina, it would have occurred at the end of ME1 or later in ME2.

BioWare tries not to address political, religious or moral issues in their games.
...

Then they shouldn't have let Shepard die. They did, so not addressing the matter is cheap.
They could've have Shep being barely alive or whatever for Cerberus to save him/her, but it's quite obvious that Shepard is 100% dead, before Cerberus get him/her.

BioWare needed enough time to pass (two years for Shepard) so that Liara, Wrex and Ashley/Kaidan would have moved on by then. Of course, we'll find out that Liara didn't move on, and that opens up a whole backstory with Shepard's body.

Two years is a good timeframe for people to start thinking that Shepard is really dead, so Shepard is forced to work with Cerberus (more new characters, less whining to the Council and Captain Anderson, etc.). I also doubt that the Alliance, even if they had the technology to resurrect him, would give him a brand new Normandy right away.

[smudboy]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

What I meant to say was that it depends on how much you immerse yourself with your character... I think my Sheps are mostly interesting (except maybe that pure Renegade one I did to explore the options), since I try to really roleplay them, give them motivations, feelings etc.. So dying (and being resurrected) would really make at least some of them think, maybe even start questioning themselves or something, so that Kelly would really be needed... now that would be role-playing! Or they could've just left Shepard alive and use another plot device... <_<

Ah, the purely subjective "but in front of my screen, I think x argument."

Well, conjure up any idea in your head for how you think the emotional state of your Shepard is.  He/she doesn't seem to show any grievances with being resurrected.  Except that crazy kink in his shoulder.

I always thought if there were disputes on board, Kelly would help resolve them.  'cause she's a counsellor.  (Like nearly everyone else being useless on board...)

[ICFAPACHECO]

Personally in ME1 Shepard is a cardboard character. However, I felt Shepard was much more alive in ME2. There are WAY more options in this game that you can flesh out Shepard's feelings on certain people and topics. The romance stories in this were better then ME1. There is always that option that is left up to you on how you want to build it. Playing flat Paragon or Renegade or just choosing what YOU as a person would do doesn't flesh out a character.



Whenever I'm playing a Bioware RPG I always kind of create a idea of what kind of person in my character. I create a personality so I can base my decisions on that. I will place my 2 cents in there once in a while but I let the personality do most of the decisions. Doing this for Shepard let me view it more as a character then myself.

[Terraneaux]

ICFAPACHECO wrote...

Personally in ME1 Shepard is a cardboard character. However, I felt Shepard was much more alive in ME2.

Best be trollin'.  Shepard has pretty much no chance to express him or herself in ME2.  In ME1 you got some nice scenes like after Udina locks down your ship and your LI comforts you, but there's none of that in ME2.  

[Cross1280]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...


well, I haven't read the books (mainly because I don't want any canon Shepard... or does Shep not appear in those?), but I think it's pretty cheap that they don't have it IN THE GAME... at least have a short talk about it, I don't want to spend hours discovering Shep's personality again (wait, actually that would be nice, it's an RPG after all ), but at least bring it up in some way...

The books mainly deal with Captain Anderson / Saren back story in the book Revelations, so it takes place long before the events of ME and ME2.
 
  while the book Ascension deals with a Charcter who was in Revelations by the name of Kahlee Sanders, and a 12 year old Biotic by the name of Gillian Grayson. this book takes place between ME1 and ME2 and fills in a few minor details in the second game. Like why the Quarians hate Cerberus

Modifié par Cross1280, 18 mars 2010 - 06:21 .

[superimposed]

Terraneaux wrote...

ICFAPACHECO wrote...

Personally in ME1 Shepard is a cardboard character. However, I felt Shepard was much more alive in ME2.

Best be trollin'.  Shepard has pretty much no chance to express him or herself in ME2.  In ME1 you got some nice scenes like after Udina locks down your ship and your LI comforts you, but there's none of that in ME2.  

A bit of both. Shepard in ME:1 and ME:2 wsere undercharacterised mostly because the dialogue wheel severely limits the ability to create multiple branches and possible responses.  Five at best, and you're usually only given two or three in terms of 'character responses', not to mention it's also voiced.
Then there's also the fact that you're supposed to be Shepard, which unfortunately again limits the variation and degree of response.

[Terraneaux]

superimposed wrote...
Then there's also the fact that you're supposed to be Shepard, which unfortunately again limits the variation and degree of response.

I assume by this you're trying to say that there's some default personality you're supposed to adhere to?  I disagree.

[TheTrooper1138]

Cross1280 wrote...

The books mainly deal with Captain Anderson / Saren back story in the book Revelations, so it takes place long before the events of ME and ME2.
 
  while the book Ascension deals with a Charcter who was in Revelations by the name of Kahlee Sanders, and a 12 year old Biotic by the name of Gillian Grayson. this book takes place between ME1 and ME2 and fills in a few minor details in the second game. Like why the Quarians hate Cerberus

Might give them a try then, I suppose... 

Mondo47 wrote...

Seriously though, as for the whole resurrection thing... it is sci-fi we talking about here. I mean, people have been cloned, downloaded into robots, turned into clouds of nanomachines, brought back from the dead, knocked up alien space babes in full defiance of nature, survived all kinds of impossible near-death experiences, uploaded into new bodies, turned into completely new species... it's not always discussed. Sometimes rayguns/matter transmitters/quantum drives/plot devices just work. And sometimes you don't want to have to be a physicist or a philosopher to 'get it'.

It would have been nice for Shepard to perhaps muse on it more, yes, or other characters to contemplate the ethics of such an experiment, or even a discussion of the science involved, but it's not a deal-breaker to me. If the raygun zaps the monster, no biggie. I won't mind too much that I wasn't told what kind of batteries it used or which unethical mining project made the lens for it if the rest of the story takes me on a nice little escapist ride.

well, I think one of the interesting things about Sci-Fi is that it usually deals with more complex themes such as this. And as I said, I don't even expect an explanation really, but at least I want them to acknowledge the fact that Shepard died and at least let the characters (and most of all Shepard) have some thoughts on that topic. I don't want them to write an essay on the topic () or start a highly philosophical debate about it, but if they use a plot device that has an impact like this (SHEPARD DIED!!), then they should at least stick to it and not just pretend nothing happend and let everything continue without anyone (especially Shepard) ever spending even one thought on the matter...

smudboy wrote...

Ah, the purely subjective "but in front of my screen, I think x argument."

Well, conjure up any idea in your head for how you think the emotional state of your Shepard is.  He/she doesn't seem to show any grievances with being resurrected.  Except that crazy kink in his shoulder.

true... and that's what bothers me, but still I think there are a lot of scenes, where Shepard shows emotion that make him/her more than a cardboard character (the scene after the Normandy being grounded in ME1 for example, as Terraneaux already pointed out). But that was mostly in ME1, so I guess ME2 is a step back in many departments, concerning the RPG at least... 

smudboy wrote...
I always thought if there were disputes on board, Kelly would help resolve them.  'cause she's a counsellor.  (Like nearly everyone else being useless on board...)

She's not useless... she dances for you... that's more than the doctor or the engineers do...