194 réponses à ce sujet

[Avissel]

smudboy wrote...
And yes, using a deus ex machina device, like resurrection, is poor writing. Within a story, and especially a sequel.

I dont know if it really counts as Deus ex.
The project took 2 years to compelte, massive amounts of tech, money, and the top minds of Humanity. A Deus ex is usually something that suddenly appears from no where at the END of the story to suddenly fix the situation.

[Raanz]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

blah blah.... American right-wing Christians have been know to make a fuss over nothing... 

I hope you realize that there are Christians all over the world, "right-wing" (I guess you are meaning their moral compass is of a religious-conservative nature but far far to the right), they are not exclusive to America.
Plenty of Americans are just as "enlightened" as Germans.

As far as your original post:  I took it as in the Mass Effect universe, ressurection is not an unusual thing.  Probably not an everyday thing (the costs are too high) but not out of the realm of possibilty.  Morality or "spiritual implications" had very little to do with it.  Besides, the player is supposed to form Shepard's beliefs, and if you choose to have nothing related to that, then it means nothing to you that you were dead, now you are not.

"Spill some drinks on the Citadel!"

[TheTrooper1138]

Raanz wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

blah blah.... American right-wing Christians have been know to make a fuss over nothing... 

I hope you realize that there are Christians all over the world, "right-wing" (I guess you are meaning their moral compass is of a religious-conservative nature but far far to the right), they are not exclusive to America.
Plenty of Americans are just as "enlightened" as Germans.

I didn't (mean to) say that all or even most Americans are like that, but I think it is quite well known that in America the right-wing Christians do have some power over public opinion etc.
In Germany they don't. We have enough stupid politians and parents and professors who are complete and utter morons and make/ask for stupid laws etc., but at least the right-winged Christians don't have any say here anymore... 

Raanz wrote...

As far as your original post:  I took it as in the Mass Effect universe, ressurection is not an unusual thing.  Probably not an everyday thing (the costs are too high) but not out of the realm of possibilty.  Morality or "spiritual implications" had very little to do with it.  Besides, the player is supposed to form Shepard's beliefs, and if you choose to have nothing related to that, then it means nothing to you that you were dead, now you are not.

Well, even if it was "not an unusual thing", then that would explain why nobody else comments on it, but still, that leaves Shepard. If I was "dead" and brought back to life, I would certainly ask myself (and maybe others - Kelly, I'm looking at you!) about these kind of things... I just think they should've given us some way to bring it up, not just completely ignore it... it's not like you die and are brought back to life every day... 

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

Why doesn't anyone ask him what he saw in the time he was dead and how long did Shepard feel he was gone for? i mean don't you think if you woke after being dead people would ask you where your conscious went to? Maybe bioware didn't want to anger any fans by saying Shep went to heaven/hell or nowhere at all. idk....

[smudboy]

Avissel wrote...

smudboy wrote...
And yes, using a deus ex machina device, like resurrection, is poor writing. Within a story, and especially a sequel.

I dont know if it really counts as Deus ex.
The project took 2 years to compelte, massive amounts of tech, money, and the top minds of Humanity. A Deus ex is usually something that suddenly appears from no where at the END of the story to suddenly fix the situation.

The story could've told us 200 years.  In reality to storytelling, a cutscene later, it's a few minutes.

"Shepard's dead.  Lazarus project.  Shepard alive."

I'd say resurrection via technology is up with Deus ex machina.

[smudboy]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...
true... and that's what bothers me, but still I think there are a lot of scenes, where Shepard shows emotion that make him/her more than a cardboard character (the scene after the Normandy being grounded in ME1 for example, as Terraneaux already pointed out). But that was mostly in ME1, so I guess ME2 is a step back in many departments, concerning the RPG at least... 

I think Kelly is the only one that asks Shepard's feelings about seeing Ash/Kaidan on Horizon, and he/she thinks of Tali, and Garrus?  It's as close as we get to some personal inquiry.  The rest is at the point of Romance, which is still just a simple one liner, here and there.

She's not useless... she dances for you... that's more than the doctor or the engineers do... 

*headbuts TheTrooper1138*

[The Angry One]

"There's no light. They always said there'd be a light.."



BioWare is clearly anti-religion. Let's inform Fox News immediately.

[Azorgamer]

The whole dying and being resurrected thing was...blah. After you save the galaxy, go up against an army of Geth, take out Sovereign, and defeat Saren....you get taken out by one frakking ship!!! *deep sigh*

That could have been handled differently but then again, I wasn't the creators of the game and I didn't spend 2 years making it so I understand if Bioware would tell me - shut...up...you...jerk.

But I still stick to my guns and say very clamly - why?!?!?!? (O.k., maybe not so calmly.) Also, watching Shepard die was just painful to watch.

As for the OP's question, everyone just seems to accept your back and hardly anyone does the whole..."Oh my gosh, it's you, it's really you - I'm not dreaming, your here in front of me. I can't believe it!" It's just taken for granted, which is very strange. As for the whole deeper question of "Is it really Shepard", it's the same brain and the same body, and with the technological advances of the Mass Effect world I suppose it is possible that it is completely Shepard.

Overall I loved ME2, but it is the kind of game that if you let yourself start thinking about the plot to much - it will drive you crazy because the plot holes can be hard to miss.

[smudboy]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Is it fair to say it is Deus ex when it makes sense based on the sci fi lore of the story that this sort of thing is possible.  It would only be deus ex machina to me if he somehow miraculously came alive with no real scientific explanation.  I agree with Avissel.

Definition:
"Any resolution to a story that does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and that is so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author, director, or developer to end the story in the way that he or she desired."
"A contrived solution to a problem, relying on an agent external to the situation."

Shepard was spaced.  Jacob describes him/her as "meat and tubes."  Shepard was dead.  Not mostly dead tongue in cheek comical-I-can-sort-of-believe he might still survive "mostly dead" The Princess Bride dead.  Pulverized.  Depressurized in space.  Entering orbit and slamming onto the planet-dead.  I don't recall anything previous in the Mass Effect universe where people cheated a destruction of that kind before.

The fact that they reconstructed him/her, with his/her brain/memory intact, by adding a bunch of mechanical doo-dads, a bunch of blue fluid, and poof!  2 years later?  Not helping.  If in the plot, or there some characterization about his recovery in his current life was present, then I might go "okay, I might buy that."  But there's absolutely no logic or explanation as to how, nor anything we can reference, that anyone in the ME universe cheated death before.

Not even the answer to our centuries old question of "can we live forever?"  Nevermind old age, cell death, fantasies of eternal youth, etc..  In Mass Effect, if you've got the money and time, and can have yourself explode at absolute zero in space, have all your moisture from your body implode, slam into the ground at 50k miles an hour?  No problem!

It is a contrived, unexplained, magical solution to their crazy marketing blitz of Legion wearing Shepard's armor.

Shepard = Cyber Jesus.  It doesn't get anymore Deus ex Machina than that.

Modifié par smudboy, 18 mars 2010 - 07:44 .

[ModerateOsprey]

smudboy wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

Is it fair to say it is Deus ex when it makes sense based on the sci fi lore of the story that this sort of thing is possible.  It would only be deus ex machina to me if he somehow miraculously came alive with no real scientific explanation.  I agree with Avissel.

Definition:
"Any resolution to a story that does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and that is so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author, director, or developer to end the story in the way that he or she desired."
"A contrived solution to a problem, relying on an agent external to the situation."

Shepard was spaced.  Jacob describes him/her as "meat and tubes."  Shepard was dead.  Not mostly dead tongue in cheek comical-I-can-sort-of-believe he might still survive "mostly dead" The Princess Bride dead.  Pulverized.  Depressurized in space.  Entering orbit and slamming onto the planet-dead.  I don't recall anything previous in the Mass Effect universe where people cheated a destruction of that kind before.

The fact that they reconstructed him/her, with his/her brain/memory intact, by adding a bunch of mechanical doo-dads, a bunch of blue fluid, and poof!  2 years later?  Not helping.  If in the plot, or there some characterization about his recovery in his current life was present, then I might go "okay, I might buy that."  But there's absolutely no logic or explanation as to how, nor anything we can reference, that anyone in the ME universe cheated death before.

Not even the answer to our centuries old question of "can we live forever?"  Nevermind old age, cell death, fantasies of eternal youth, etc..  In Mass Effect, if you've got the money and time, and can have yourself explode at absolute zero in space, have all your moisture from your body implode, slam into the ground at 50k miles an hour?  No problem!

It is a contrived, unexplained, magical solution to their crazy marketing blitz of Legion wearing Shepard's armor.

Shepard = Cyber Jesus.  It doesn't get anymore Deus ex Machina than that.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you there.

[Lalandrathon]

Did Shepard actually crash into the planet or was Shepard's body recovered before that? Because at stellar vacuum temperatures, brain proteins would decay quite slowly. The difficult part would be avoiding destructive chemical reactions when warming Shepard back up.

[Terraneaux]

Lalandrathon wrote...

Did Shepard actually crash into the planet or was Shepard's body recovered before that? Because at stellar vacuum temperatures, brain proteins would decay quite slowly. The difficult part would be avoiding destructive chemical reactions when warming Shepard back up.

Shepard is shown to be burning due to re-entry in that scene.

[The Angry One]

Terraneaux wrote...

Lalandrathon wrote...

Did Shepard actually crash into the planet or was Shepard's body recovered before that? Because at stellar vacuum temperatures, brain proteins would decay quite slowly. The difficult part would be avoiding destructive chemical reactions when warming Shepard back up.

Shepard is shown to be burning due to re-entry in that scene.

It's not clear if Shep actually entered though, if Shep hit the atmosphere at a shallow enough angle, Shep would skip back into space.

[Terraneaux]

The Angry One wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Lalandrathon wrote...

Did Shepard actually crash into the planet or was Shepard's body recovered before that? Because at stellar vacuum temperatures, brain proteins would decay quite slowly. The difficult part would be avoiding destructive chemical reactions when warming Shepard back up.

Shepard is shown to be burning due to re-entry in that scene.

It's not clear if Shep actually entered though, if Shep hit the atmosphere at a shallow enough angle, Shep would skip back into space.

That's possible, didn't think about that.  That would probably be the most realistic scenario for recovering Shep.  If Shep just died out in space it's much more reasonable (though still deep in 'possibly beyond the capabilities of anyone, ever') that Shep could be brought back.  

[smudboy]

Terraneaux wrote...

That's possible, didn't think about that.  That would probably be the most realistic scenario for recovering Shep.  If Shep just died out in space it's much more reasonable (though still deep in 'possibly beyond the capabilities of anyone, ever') that Shep could be brought back.  

The only way I could possibly believe it is if they made some mention of his/her brain being miraculously preserved.  For example, let's say his head got somehow removed from his body, and his body came crashing down to the planet (which could explain how Legion got his armor.)  Maybe the absolute zero vacuum of space could preserve a brain, and ME technology could reconstruct the rest of Shepard.

But we get "meat and tubes" and no mention of HOW his brain and memories survived, aside from a psych assessment from Miranda and Jacob.

[Terraneaux]

Darht Jayder wrote...
I can see what you are saying...and ultimately they needed a device that would allow Shepard to work for Cerberus because likely after ME1 and all the horrible things Shepard stoppped Cerberus from doing.....he wouldn't work for them.

Or, you know, they could have just not put Cerberus in the story the way they did, which would not have necessitated such a ridiculous heel-face turn on Cerberus's part.  

Or they could have had a situation where you were infiltrating Cerberus at the behest of Anderson or whoever, and then at the end you got to choose who to sell out and who to give the base to.  

Just because someone resuscitates me doesn't mean I owe them anything.  Same reason why the 'god created you so you should do what he says' argument doesn't work.  

[Relinquished2]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Well, one thing that has been bothering me, since first playing ME2 is the fact, that after Shepard dies and is resurrected (or whatever) the question is never raised as to how much Shepard is really "Shepard". What I'm talking about is the more "philosophical"/religious question, as to how exactly one is still alive after being dead (well, you know what I mean ). Shepard was clinically dead if I'm not mistaken and not just for a few hours. He/She died after the Normandy has been blown up and would not have been recovered right away. Apparently the body was already starting to decay, so it must haven been more than a few days even.
So, I'm not trying to get all preachy (especially being an agnostic myself), but I think it is kinda cheap to use a matter as big as that as a plot device, without even discussing the "moral" points of it. It's like Shepard is just alive again and nobody seems to wonder (apart from everyone ****ing about Shep not being around)...
I hope you guys understand, what I'm talking about... 
Thoughts?

Who cares?
Shepard's Alive.
Tali's happy again.
What more do you want?

[Wraith_3]

The Angry One wrote...
It's not clear if Shep actually entered though, if Shep hit the atmosphere at a shallow enough angle, Shep would skip back into space.

I assumed he did reenter because you see a red/orange glow on his armor when he is nearing the planet. That doesn't mean his armor isn't strong enough to protect his body because it is made to repel fire, explosions, etc. So he could have just had a lot of impact injuries.



My take on this, and I am Christian, is that I did think "Hey what happened to his soul?" for a minute. However it is scifi so you just have to suspend your sense of disbelief. I think they could have come up with a better explanation in connection with the Lazarus project. They could have given it a kind of mystic aspect like Shepard was meant to live to fight the Reapers. I'm guessing they just didn't deal with any religious aspect so they didn't upset anyone. I think Babylon 5 had one of the best resurrection stories with Sheridan in that it was an alien who gave him some of his life back.

[kraidy1117]

They did not say it so flame wars did not happen. On the old boards someone said does Shepard have a soul? and he was flamed to hell before Chris locked it down. Things like this cause flame wars or cause ME2 haters like Smudboy to get all happy.

[Jzadek72]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Relinquished2 wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Well, one thing that has been bothering me, since first playing ME2 is the fact, that after Shepard dies and is resurrected (or whatever) the question is never raised as to how much Shepard is really "Shepard". What I'm talking about is the more "philosophical"/religious question, as to how exactly one is still alive after being dead (well, you know what I mean ). Shepard was clinically dead if I'm not mistaken and not just for a few hours. He/She died after the Normandy has been blown up and would not have been recovered right away. Apparently the body was already starting to decay, so it must haven been more than a few days even.
So, I'm not trying to get all preachy (especially being an agnostic myself), but I think it is kinda cheap to use a matter as big as that as a plot device, without even discussing the "moral" points of it. It's like Shepard is just alive again and nobody seems to wonder (apart from everyone ****ing about Shep not being around)...
I hope you guys understand, what I'm talking about... 
Thoughts?

Who cares?
Shepard's Alive.
Tali's happy again.
What more do you want?

Thanks for those insightful comments.

I don't know why, but that comment made me laugh a lot. Things always seem funnier when shirking off work at midnight.