194 réponses à ce sujet

[Gill Kaiser]

As far as I'm concerned, if it's his original body, and it has his original memories automatically, then it's him. If said memories are a VI implant based upon a scan of Shepard's brain, then it's a bit murkier.

[TheTrooper1138]

The Angry One wrote...

BioWare is clearly anti-religion. Let's inform Fox News immediately.

well, maybe they are, so am I, but I still think if you use a story device like that, you should at least somehow mention the philosophical (not religious!) aspects of it. The question of whether we have a soul or not is not just religious, it is also a philosophical one, and I think it is really poor from BioWare that the only religious aliens in the games are damn fanatics who worship the Protheans as the "Enkindlers", even though everyone seems to know that the Protheans existed and were just aliens.
I mean, come on, we have so many interesting alien races in Mass Effect, why not also let them have some interesting philosophical or religious beliefs? I mean, would Star Wars have been so great, if it wouldn't have had all the spiritual Force-stuff? I doubt it.

smudboy wrote...

The only way I could possibly believe it is if they made some mention of his/her brain being miraculously preserved.  For example, let's say his head got somehow removed from his body, and his body came crashing down to the planet (which could explain how Legion got his armor.)  Maybe the absolute zero vacuum of space could preserve a brain, and ME technology could reconstruct the rest of Shepard.

except that you find Shepard's N7 helmet at the Normandy crash site... but then again, Shep does seem to be wearing another armour during the crash, so maybe... hm...

[Hurbster]

Relinquished2 wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Well, one thing that has been bothering me, since first playing ME2 is the fact, that after Shepard dies and is resurrected (or whatever) the question is never raised as to how much Shepard is really "Shepard". What I'm talking about is the more "philosophical"/religious question, as to how exactly one is still alive after being dead (well, you know what I mean ). Shepard was clinically dead if I'm not mistaken and not just for a few hours. He/She died after the Normandy has been blown up and would not have been recovered right away. Apparently the body was already starting to decay, so it must haven been more than a few days even.
So, I'm not trying to get all preachy (especially being an agnostic myself), but I think it is kinda cheap to use a matter as big as that as a plot device, without even discussing the "moral" points of it. It's like Shepard is just alive again and nobody seems to wonder (apart from everyone ****ing about Shep not being around)...
I hope you guys understand, what I'm talking about... 
Thoughts?

Who cares?
Shepard's Alive.
Tali's happy again.
What more do you want?

Cake would be nice.

[Schroing]

Ecael wrote...

I think they were already treading on the line when EDI mentioned that the Reaper baby was in its embryo stage:

Shepard: So it's not alive?

...

I hope you're kidding... Here in Germany that would bother nobody, but then again, American right-wing Christians have been know to make a fuss over nothing... 

Pro-life is hardly a right-wing Christian exclusive viewpoint. But there should be some sort of a fuss regardless, as an embryo is -clearly- a living entity on at the very least a cellular level.

Modifié par Schroing, 19 mars 2010 - 07:23 .

[Jarcander]

What REALLY bothers me about the intro is that Shepard isn't really combat ready no matter what he says. The guy is walking as if left side of his body was broken and pieces of his face are missing.



And yet, no one really seems to care or comment of his notable physical pains/damage.

[CmdrFenix83]

I always wanted the option to tell Ash on Horizon, "Ash, I was dead. Cerberus spent two years rebuilding me. Oh, by the way, there is no afterlife or anything."

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Just because someone resuscitates me doesn't mean I owe them anything.  Same reason why the 'god created you so you should do what he says' argument doesn't work.  

There's a problem with your logic. The issue with God everyone mentions is, "Does he even exist?"  And "which interepretation of him should we follow?" There's millions of variations on the God question to consider. It's explained pretty clearly that Cerberus brought you back to life and they clearly exist. I'm not saying this changes the conclusion of whether you should be helping Cerberus. But it has nothing to do with God.

Miranda: "Cereberus gave you a second chance Shepard. Maybe you should do the same for us."

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Definition:
"Any resolution to a story that does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and that is so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author, director, or developer to end the story in the way that he or she desired."
"A contrived solution to a problem, relying on an agent external to the situation."

Shepard was spaced.  Jacob describes him/her as "meat and tubes."  Shepard was dead.  Not mostly dead tongue in cheek comical-I-can-sort-of-believe he might still survive "mostly dead" The Princess Bride dead.  Pulverized.  Depressurized in space.  Entering orbit and slamming onto the planet-dead.  I don't recall anything previous in the Mass Effect universe where people cheated a destruction of that kind before.

Yet we are presented with a resurrection nonetheless...in a world where hyper space, giant machines intent on destroying all life, and aliens are all in abundance. It also took two years' worth of highly trained scientists and great funding to pull off. If ME were a universe where technology did not reign supreme, I would agree. But in ME1, we see the issue of AI and whether they 'live' come up with Tali. If you can give machines sentience, I don't see what is so difficult about bringing the dead back to life.

 Religion was thrown out the window quite a while in the ME universe, although I can agree the lack of philosophical explanation is a problem. But then Shepard doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who sits on a mountain and says "What does it mean to die?"

[TheTrooper1138]

Schroing wrote...

Pro-life is hardly a right-wing Christian exclusive viewpoint.

yes it is.

Schroing wrote...

But there should be some sort of a fuss regardless, as an embryo is -clearly- a living entity on at the very least a cellular level.

This is not about biology, it's about consciousness and do you remember anything from before you were born? I doubt it...

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Just because someone resuscitates me doesn't mean I owe them anything.  Same reason why the 'god created you so you should do what he says' argument doesn't work.  

There's a problem with your logic. The issue with God everyone mentions is, "Does he even exist?"  And "which interepretation of him should we follow?" There's millions of variations on the God question to consider. It's explained pretty clearly that Cerberus brought you back to life and they clearly exist. I'm not saying this changes the conclusion of whether you should be helping Cerberus. But it has nothing to do with God.

Miranda: "Cereberus gave you a second chance Shepard. Maybe you should do the same for us."

No, this doesn't work.  If someone walks up to you in the street, puts $100 in your hand, and then tells you to do their landscaping, you're under no obligation to do their landscaping.  Of course, the ethical thing to do would be to give them back their money and say 'Sorry, I'm not interested."  The analogy isn't perfect because Shep can't 'give back' his life - he's alive and there's nothing he can do about (and it's not like killing himself would do Cerberus any good).  If they had made a deal with him before he died or through some sort of seance where they agreed to bring him back to life in exchange for future services, THEN Shepard would owe them.  But he never asked to be brought back to life; he owes them nothing.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Terraneaux wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Just because someone resuscitates me doesn't mean I owe them anything.  Same reason why the 'god created you so you should do what he says' argument doesn't work.  

There's a problem with your logic. The issue with God everyone mentions is, "Does he even exist?"  And "which interepretation of him should we follow?" There's millions of variations on the God question to consider. It's explained pretty clearly that Cerberus brought you back to life and they clearly exist. I'm not saying this changes the conclusion of whether you should be helping Cerberus. But it has nothing to do with God.

Miranda: "Cereberus gave you a second chance Shepard. Maybe you should do the same for us."

No, this doesn't work.  If someone walks up to you in the street, puts $100 in your hand, and then tells you to do their landscaping, you're under no obligation to do their landscaping.  Of course, the ethical thing to do would be to give them back their money and say 'Sorry, I'm not interested."  The analogy isn't perfect because Shep can't 'give back' his life - he's alive and there's nothing he can do about (and it's not like killing himself would do Cerberus any good).  If they had made a deal with him before he died or through some sort of seance where they agreed to bring him back to life in exchange for future services, THEN Shepard would owe them.  But he never asked to be brought back to life; he owes them nothing.

Well, if paragon he could easily feel indebted to Cerberus. If Renegade, he will have no moral qualms working for them, despite their history. If Cerberus is the only group doing anything about the Reapers and everyone else (Council and Alliance) are ignoring you, you're going to have one hell of a time explaining what you planned on doing to stop the Reapers without a ship, allies, and information.

The Miranda example merely shows how they did you a service. You don't have to work with them, but you could at least hear what they have to say. Your comparison of $100 to a life doesn't really capture the nature of what they did for you. Or are you saying that you wouldn't be grateful to be brought back to life? Most would.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 19 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Well, if paragon he could easily feel indebted to Cerberus. If Renegade, he will have no moral qualms working for them, despite their history. If Cerberus is the only group doing anything about the Reapers and everyone else (Council and Alliance) are ignoring you, you're going to have one hell of a time explaining what you planned on doing to stop the Reapers without a ship, allies, and information.

And if either of them is a Sole Survivor, or just doesn't like working with terrorists, the situation is still a problem.  Furthermore, it's entirely unrealistic that the council doesn't believe shep, and halfway through the game when you have concrete evidence (like during the Reaper IFF mission) you are never given the opportunity to inform the Council or the Alliance - the same problem that was in the intro writ large.  Bad storytelling.  

[BaladasDemnevanni]

1.And if either of them is a Sole Survivor, or just doesn't like working with terrorists, the situation is still a problem. 

 2. Furthermore, it's entirely unrealistic that the council doesn't believe shep

3. and halfway through the game when you have concrete evidence (like during the Reaper IFF mission) you are never given the opportunity to inform the Council or the Alliance - the same problem that was in the intro writ large.  Bad storytelling.  

1. If you're a sole survivor, that you were chosen to be a Spectre in the first place for...'surviving' is already a problem.  It does not mean you know how to get the job done. The Council did not believe the story of the Conduit, they thought Saren was merely a traitor. Why would they send a new baby Spectre against the Council's former top agent when they could have easily chosen a Spectre with more experience? Bad story-telling.

'And just doesn't like working with terrorists'? I don't like working with turians or Quarians. Somehow Garrus and Tali ended up on my team....oh wait.

2. Why is this? It's a standard political tactic to downplay instances of a government appearing weak. With Shepard dead and Sovereign's remains gone, it was much more effective for them to perform a cover up and say you were insane.

3. Once you approach the Reaper, you are sealed inside. The only way you were able to get out was the self-destruct sequence. Or would it have been better for Shepard to sit inside waiting for pick up?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 20 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

[KarmaTheAlligator]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

1.And if either of them is a Sole Survivor, or just doesn't like working with terrorists, the situation is still a problem. 

 2. Furthermore, it's entirely unrealistic that the council doesn't believe shep

3. and halfway through the game when you have concrete evidence (like during the Reaper IFF mission) you are never given the opportunity to inform the Council or the Alliance - the same problem that was in the intro writ large.  Bad storytelling.  

1. If you're a sole survivor, that you were chosen to be a Spectre in the first place for...'surviving' is already a problem.  It does not mean you know how to get the job done. The Council did not believe the story of the Conduit, they thought Saren was merely a traitor. Why would they send a new baby Spectre against the Council's former top agent when they could have easily chosen a Spectre with more experience? Bad story-telling.

'And just doesn't like working with terrorists'? I don't like working with turians. Somehow Garrus ended up on my team....oh wait.

2. Why is this? It's a standard political tactic to downplay instances of a government appearing weak. With Shepard dead and Sovereign's remains gone, it was much more effective for them to perform a cover up and say you were insane.

3. Once you approach the Reaper, you are sealed inside. The only way you were able to get out was the self-destruct sequence. Or would it have been better for Shepard to sit inside waiting for pick up?

The sole survivor bit was about having problems working for Cerberus, methinks, not about being believed by the council.

[Notho]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Obviously a materialistic view of mind.
And yes, using a deus ex machina device, like resurrection, is poor writing. Within a story, and especially a sequel.
Let alone Shepard having the character development and opinion of a piece of cardboard. No arguments, no outbursts, no "since when could I bend metal with my hands?" scenes. Nada. Shepard remains our flat and static character, slowly pushing that plot forward.

well, I kinda like my Shepards, they're only as flat as you play them (), but because of that it bothers me even more... I mean, at least some of my Shepards would really have some thoughts on that matter, it would be great if Shepard could've some kind of emotional crisis about this, I mean we already have a councilor on board, why not give her something to do... 

The little dance she does for you isn't enough?


(Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)

[BaladasDemnevanni]

The sole survivor bit was about having problems working for Cerberus, methinks, not about being believed by the council.

I can understand that, but alot of the issues which come up are about plot holes. ME1 had its own fair share, which I guess I could have been a bit clearer on. I'm not saying ME2 doesn't have issues, but I think a plot should be given some leeway. If we analayze it enough, we can find multiple holes. I have no problem accepting the Council sending me after Saren, just as I accept TIM sending me after the Collectors.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 20 mars 2010 - 12:17 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Maybe because Shepard isn't religious?

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

2. Why is this? It's a standard political tactic to downplay instances of a government appearing weak. With Shepard dead and Sovereign's remains gone, it was much more effective for them to perform a cover up and say you were insane.

It's also much more effective to be a politician in a government in a civilization not overrun by ancient alien robot gods.  The council's behavior is not self-serving; it is stupid.  In any case, look at the way the party in power at the time handled 9/11in the united states - they mentioned it every chance they could get because as long as people believed in an enemy out there, it was easier to get them in line.  Why isn't the council doing this?

[GenericPlayer2]

I know Shep can engage in romance, but I often wonder if everything is in working order. Is he shooting blanks? If he gets someone pregnant, will the child be born with reaper tech? Just how much of the current Sheperd comes from Reapers?

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The sole survivor bit was about having problems working for Cerberus, methinks, not about being believed by the council.

I can understand that, but alot of the issues which come up are about plot holes. ME1 had its own fair share, which I guess I could have been a bit clearer on. I'm not saying ME2 doesn't have issues, but I think a plot should be given some leeway. If we analayze it enough, we can find multiple holes. I have no problem accepting the Council sending me after Saren, just as I accept TIM sending me after the Collectors.

In ME1, it was a given that you were a relatively loyal marine commander.  In ME2, it was a given that you understood that Cerberus was a psychopathically evil terrorist organization that betrayed the Alliance.  Do you see why having you work for the Council on the Alliance's orders in ME1 makes sense, whereas working for Cerberus in ME2 makes none?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Terraneaux wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

2. Why is this? It's a standard political tactic to downplay instances of a government appearing weak. With Shepard dead and Sovereign's remains gone, it was much more effective for them to perform a cover up and say you were insane.

It's also much more effective to be a politician in a government in a civilization not overrun by ancient alien robot gods.  The council's behavior is not self-serving; it is stupid.  In any case, look at the way the party in power at the time handled 9/11in the united states - they mentioned it every chance they could get because as long as people believed in an enemy out there, it was easier to get them in line.  Why isn't the council doing this?

Because the people obviously aren't rebelling against the Government. After the Geth invasion, if you noticed everything fell apart. The Council has barely managed to rebuild itself and is hardly at full strength. They do not have Asari and Quarians, etc. rebelling in the streets. The argument you are applying would work much better if a civil war was threatening to explode and we needed a common enemy. It actually works better for explaining why we would work with the Illusive Man, who is the only one who believes you right now and is willing to supply you.

But as it stands, the Council finds that it is in their better interests to downplay the invasion, especially since Shepard (the most vocal advocate of the Reaper invasion) happened to die.Plus, how were they supposed to admit to that? "Sorry guys, we screwed up and let a giant army of machines sneak into our greatest sanctuary and millions more are coming to destroy us, we just didn't see it". It would cause a huge panic.

[TheTrooper1138]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Maybe because Shepard isn't religious?

This is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. If I choose that Shepard is religious, then he/she is. Also if I remember correctly, in ME1 when Ash tells you that she believes in "God" you can tell her something like "so do I" (never chose that option, since I despise Christianity, but still)... so you're argument fails on two counts already...

[BaladasDemnevanni]

In ME1, it was a given that you were a relatively loyal marine commander.  In ME2, it was a given that you understood that Cerberus was a psychopathically evil terrorist organization that betrayed the Alliance.  Do you see why having you work for the Council on the Alliance's orders in ME1 makes sense, whereas working for Cerberus in ME2 makes none?

You are a 'relatively loyal marine commander'. That's a wonderful thing to be, I applaud Shepard for his role as a marine commander. Unfortunately, that does not necessarily qualify you to become a Spectre. And it does not necessitate that he be the one to go after Saren, who is the Council's top agent, especially as a brand new Spectre. If they had sent you with another, more experienced Spectre (which does happen on some assignments, according to your Codex) with you or in your place, it would have made more sense.

Cerberus was a series of one dimensional side quests in ME1. In ME2, their role is expanded and they have their own extremists, moderates, etc like every other group out there. Miranda also explains how Cerberus government works. Hell, I can regard the Spectres as a perfect example of corruption. No one person should have absolute power in their hands.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 20 mars 2010 - 12:33 .

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Because the people obviously aren't rebelling against the Government. After the Geth invasion, if you noticed everything fell apart. The Council has barely managed to rebuild itself and is hardly at full strength. They do not have Asari and Quarians, etc. rebelling in the streets. The argument you are applying would work much better if a civil war was threatening to explode and we needed a common enemy. It actually works better for explaining why we would work with the Illusive Man, who is the only one who believes you right now and is willing to supply you.

We weren't looking at a civil war when the last administration was milking 9/11 and terrorism for every last iota of fear, either.  However, there was plenty of discontent - Quarians, Volus, Krogan, all three of those species were chafing under the rule of the Council.  Humans too, until they got a seat.  

But what it comes down to, is that coming back to life is a huge deal.  Instead Shepard just takes it in stride, like every other thing that happens in ME2 (Except Jack.  Shepard is scared of Jack jumping over beds, of course.  Because Jack is a BADASS PUNK GRRL.  Love her.  Please. -EA marketing team)

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Cerberus was a series of one dimensional side quests in ME1. In ME2, their role is expanded and they have their own extremists, moderates, etc like every other group out there. Hell, I can regard the Spectres as a perfect example of corruption. No one person should have absolute power in their hands.

Well, if they're paragon Shep, they're obviously not corrupt.