90 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

It would appear his only goal is to unite whatever humans and darkspawn he can muster to fulfill his own agenda regardless of the consequences for those who join him. He is quite a good manipulator of the mind as he very easily swayed the grey wardens who were hunting him in the book in spite of their convictions which I found difficult to understand.

I thought that was the effect of the taint within them.

[beelzeybob]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Bioware deliberately made it hard to tell if he is evil or not so the player would have to think. One way Dragon Age is better than Mass Effect is the lack of magical colored bars to think for you.

Not really in the case of the Architect. They make the player guess more than anything.

The book makes him seem really evil, where his plot is to turn the entire world into Grey Warden Darkspawn to "end" the blight. Then I guess between the book and the game he discovers that Warden blood can make the darkspawn resist the taint and ignore the Old Gods' "songs" and he says he just wants to free his people, but he still wants to end the blight. If you keep him alive the Mother says he was responsible for the Blight in the core game...

So the player has to guess. If you've read the book then you don't know if he's telling you the whole truth. If you just play the game he doesn't seem evil, but there's not nearly enough evidence to decide for sure. Even the consequences are ambiguous so you can't make a meta-game decision either.

I guess in a way that qualifies as making the player think, but if there is no consequence... then what's the point of the decision in the first place? Sequels? Doesn't seem likely.

I think the real reason the Architect is so vague is simply because they were lazy in making this game. But I would have to say I didn't think he seemed evil in the book. More like what Tahleron said, he's ignorant.

But in game he doesn't seem so ignorant anymore, and he's no longer talking in broken english like the disciples. He shows some empathy for people like Utha.. but still. Vague as hell.

[Hostetler]

Venatio wrote...

Deathstyk85 wrote...

the architect was the "any means necessary" to save my people kind of thing, much like the illusive man in mass effect. "evil" is open to interpretation, and in his he isnt.

But are his people worth saving - thats the question isnt it? For starters, they're more like parasite with their need to leech off of other races to produce Broodmothers. Secondly, they are squatting on Dwarven lands and they're success runs parrallel with Dwarven ruin and misfortunes.

Had the Architect been born among Humnas, Elves, Dwarves, or even the Qunari he would have been a great guy. As it stands, in my book, take him down!

Hmmm - I have not met the archie yet but this post inspired me to point out something.  actually 2 somethings.

1.  nothing has the "right" of survival - a species either adapts, overcomes, or becomes extinct.  The dwarves are on thier way to extinction not only because of the darkspawn, but by thier choices.  In the end, it seems that surface dwarves will be the only remnant of dwarven society.

     By there being an Intelligent Darkspawn( regardless of how they became intelligent) it shows that they are capable of evolving.  By being capable of evolving and becoming self aware, it is a natural step to attempt to ensure thier own survival.


2.  Might makes Right  - let's face it,  this is the number one rule, as much as people like to pretend it is not.  North ans South America are classic examples of a technological society totally obliterating a less advanced culture,society,and belief system.


2

[Apallous]

It's too bad they didn't give better dialogue options for interrogating him, like don't you necessarily need to kill humans and/or dwarfs to make darkspawn? how then would I gain anything from making darkspawn smarter? or why were you making dopplegangers of grey wardens?.. that's suspicious.

[LOST_PriNcEsS_]

Honestly, though -- I agree with the above posted who is citing BW's laziness. It's a possibility. But with The Calling, it's possible they know a lot more about him and they're just trying not to reveal too much in an expansion.



As far as the Architect is concerned in general, I find it interesting that if you let him live the darkspawn stop clambering through the Deep Roads. If you kill him, the darkspawn get worse down there. Recall that the darkspawn are digging down there because they are constantly looking for an Old God to taint to cause another Blight. The Mother reveals that the Architect caused the Blight from Origins. He claims it was an experiment that went horribly wrong.



I let him live, because if the darkspawn will stop trying to cause Blights, that's a good thing. Besides, I'm sure he'll show up later in DA2 or DA3 and we'll have another chance to kill him once there's more info out there about him.

[Dansayshi]

I let him live too, iv never read the calling, but hell, if he can stop the blight, good, if not, whats another darkspawn? The epilogue worries me tho, sure, the attacks may of died down, but hell, what if hes merely stacking up forces.



And then the warden dissapears, kidknapping?



Alot of loose ends in the story, during and at the end imo. It seemed so obvious that you were meant to defend Vigil's keep with your other party if you chose to save the city, but it never happened...

[Venatio]

Dansayshi wrote...

I let him live too, iv never read the calling, but hell, if he can stop the blight, good, if not, whats another darkspawn? The epilogue worries me tho, sure, the attacks may of died down, but hell, what if hes merely stacking up forces.

And then the warden dissapears, kidknapping?

Alot of loose ends in the story, during and at the end imo. It seemed so obvious that you were meant to defend Vigil's keep with your other party if you chose to save the city, but it never happened...

Actually, I would like to know if the city could stand on its own if we relocate all troop to its walls in that first meeting. The Battle of Amaranthine City was pretty anti-climatic and when I read about the party they had at Vigils keep I was pretty upset. They had a Helms Deep showdown and I wasnt there to see it, or participate!

Modifié par Venatio, 18 mars 2010 - 03:59 .

[beelzeybob]

That would actually be all levels of awesome if our warden woke up from being unconcious in the next game as a result of being kidnapped/ "vanished" by the Architect.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The warden doesn't "disappear" in all endings, or at least she/he doesn't disappear without explanation. In my ending my warden simply ran off with Leliana and never returned to Vigil's Keep.

As for the Architect, he is ignorant about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean he's not evil. Evil is subjective, yes, and there may be a difference between him being evil and doing evil.

Darkspawn need broodmothers to reproduce. The architect's idea of "awakening" a brood mother = The Mother... Not good. The architect's idea of "awakening" an old god = the Blight. Also not good.

He makes it perfectly clear that he's going to continue his work no matter what the consequences. He doesn't care about anything but the darkspawn and their awakening, and his plan in the book was to turn all life on Thedas into darkspawn grey wardens. That's not good either.

He's not "just another darkspawn" if you let him live, and his experiments into ending the blights have already proven to be insanely dangerous and irresponsible. One: he actually caused a blight, and two: he created the Mother and the whole "civil war" that led to so much trouble and death in the expansion. And he doesn't care. It's all just acceptable casualties to him for the sake of his research.

So is he evil? Whether he is or not, his actions have certainly been catastrophic thus far and show no signs of getting better.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 18 mars 2010 - 08:31 .

[blademaster7]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

The warden doesn't "disappear" in all endings, or at least she/he doesn't disappear without explanation. In my ending my warden simply ran off with Leliana and never returned to Vigil's Keep.

As for the Architect, he is ignorant about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean he's not evil. Evil is subjective, yes, and there may be a difference between him being evil and doing evil.

Darkspawn need broodmothers to reproduce. The architect's idea of "awakening" a brood mother = The Mother... Not good. The architect's idea of "awakening" an old god = the Blight. Also not good.

He makes it perfectly clear that he's going to continue his work no matter what the consequences. He doesn't care about anything but the darkspawn and their awakening, and his plan in the book was to turn all life on Thedas into darkspawn grey wardens. That's not good either.

He's not "just another darkspawn" if you let him live, and his experiments into ending the blights have already proven to be insanely dangerous and irresponsible. One: he actually caused a blight, and two: he created the Mother and the whole "civil war" that led to so much trouble and death in the expansion. And he doesn't care. It's all just acceptable casualties to him for the sake of his research.

So is he evil? Whether he is or not, his actions have certainly been catastrophic thus far and show no signs of getting better.

Well said.

I killed him the first time without knowing he was resposnsible for the blight. I just went with my Grey Warden instinct.. hehe. I said to my self... what would Duncan or Riordan do?

I reloaded a bit later just to see what would happen if I let him live, and when the Mother said he was responsible for awakening her along with the archdemon my jaw dropped to the floor.

For once in a RPG, I went with my gut and didn't regret it in the end. This creature deserves to die. He's too dangerous to be allowed to continue his research.

[Spinnazie]

fantasypisces wrote...

That was one of my biggest gripes. This storyline would have been GREAT as a sequel, that way it could all be more fleshed out. But as an expansion it was just too rushed. In the end, I still didn't trust the Architect, and still had no real idea what the hell was going on during the whole situation.

^ This x10

This would of made an amazing sequel. Imagine a totally fleshed out ruling of the Keep and your new land. The story could of been great too. (Also Romances )

[Senalda]

The problem with Architech (and the plot in Awakening in general) is that it's far too vague. Yes, I like gray colors, but why on earth would I even consider keeping this guy alive when I can finally chop his murdering head off? Because he says so? C'mon, give me a better reason.

So I can only agree with the post Fantasypisces made earlier in the thread. In the end there just wasn't enough information to go on and I still didn't really know what the hell was going on. Thus Architech can die with the rest of the darkspawn abominations. Even more so, he just seems dangerous since he can make the darkspawn even more big a threat.

Modifié par Senalda, 18 mars 2010 - 11:43 .

[this isnt my name]

Sorry but making everyone darkspawn is pretty much the same as letting the blight/darkspawn win, so I see his plan as evil, why not change the darkspawn instead of the world.

[JBaconBits]

I killed him without thinking twice. He tried to kill me with two dragons, has a bunch of clearly brainwashed people around him, and is essentially make all darkspawn a smarter and more dangerous enemy with Warden blood.



Seemed liked an obvious choice.

[Thor Rand Al]

I just did this n yes I killed him. I had to much information from the book to know he's not what he appears to be, I found him manipulative, he seems more human then darkspawn. Since when did darkspawn get flesh like us? That n it didn't help with my first introduction from him he helped himself to some of my blood without asking first and then imprisoned me. If your gonna ask someone to help you don't try n ****** them off lol. Come on Utha use to be human she could of told him that much sheesh.

Despite whether or not I've read the book though is the fact the only reason we are having this darkspawn problem right now is because of 1 of his creations going rogue. And he wants to make more. I wish we would of had the option of asking him how he how he could quarantee this not happening again if we let him live.

At least with him dead yes there's going to be more darkspawn (they'll be busy though looking for the next old god so they can bring another blight), yes I'm sorry that the dwarves are gonna have to deal with this but hopefully the grey wardens will be there to help. But at least we'll have a reprieve from the blights for a little while, instead of worrying about a rogue creation going insane everytime we turn around. He obviously couldn't handle Mother, what makes him think that this won't happen again. Without having a quarantee this wouldn't happen again, without having more knowledge about the whole thing I couldn't risk it.



What I'm curious about though is what would the other older grey wardens think about this, what would they have done.



This was a no win situation except for him. We'd still have to deal with the darkspawn regardless of whether he killed the old gods or not. At least if we let this happen naturally the darkspawn will eventually I hope be erradicated once all the old god's are gone.





lol btw I lost -3 approval from Nathaniel oops lol

[KnightofPhoenix]

He is a visionary who wants to free his own people. I don't think he is evil. But he does cause problems yes.

I still decided to side with him, with the hopes that his experiments might prevent the 2 future blights. And also make the darkspawn a real people and civilisation. Of course if he plans to make everyone into tainted creatures, he will have to die. But in the game, it was clear that the Mother is the immediate danger and not the Architect. So I didn't turn down his offer of support.

If he turned out to be a threat in the future, he can be dealt with. The Mother on the otherhand had to be eliminated immediately.

And I wouldn't say it's entirely his fault that Uthermiel awoke. The darkspawn would have found it with or without the Architect in time. The Architect simply made the wait shorter, and not out of malice.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mars 2010 - 02:12 .

[Thor Rand Al]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He is a visionary who wants to free his own people. I don't think he is evil. But he does cause problems yes.
I still decided to side with him, with the hopes that his experiments might prevent the 2 future blights. And also make the darkspawn a real people and civilisation. Of course if he plans to make everyone into tainted creatures, he will have to die. But in the game, it was clear that the Mother is the danger and not the Arhictect. So I didn't turn down his offer.
If he turned out to be a threat in the future, he can be dealt with. The Mother on the otherhand had to be eliminated immediately.

Very much true but why is she the danger?  His experiments allowed that to happen.  What does he think, that he's gonna be able to free these creatures and their not gonna get minds of their own and then here we go again, right back were we started.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He is a visionary who wants to free his own people. I don't think he is evil. But he does cause problems yes.
I still decided to side with him, with the hopes that his experiments might prevent the 2 future blights. And also make the darkspawn a real people and civilisation. Of course if he plans to make everyone into tainted creatures, he will have to die. But in the game, it was clear that the Mother is the danger and not the Arhictect. So I didn't turn down his offer.
If he turned out to be a threat in the future, he can be dealt with. The Mother on the otherhand had to be eliminated immediately.

Very much true but why is she the danger?  His experiments allowed that to happen.  What does he think, that he's gonna be able to free these creatures and their not gonna get minds of their own and then here we go again, right back were we started.

I edited my post and added "immediate danger".

The Mother is the immediate danger because she is insane. The Architect on the otherhand is rational and reasonable. He can be negotiated with. And he can learn from his mistakes. You can compromise with a person like him. You can't with something like the Mother.

Yes, he caused the mother to become insane (and I think he is genuinely sorry). But it was not out of malic or hatred. Accident can and do happen. He knew it was a risk and he tried to fix it. It wasn't like he just left the mother be and didn't do anything about it. He sent his army to stop her and tried to get the Wardens to help him, while he could have just ignored it all and kept in the shadow.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mars 2010 - 02:17 .

[Bann Duncan]

bobobo878 wrote...

Bioware deliberately made it hard to tell if he is evil or not so the player would have to think. One way Dragon Age is better than Mass Effect is the lack of magical colored bars to think for you.

Except that, for the most part, the bars in ME don't really tell right or wrong.

[SDNcN]

Bann Duncan wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Bioware deliberately made it hard to tell if he is evil or not so the player would have to think. One way Dragon Age is better than Mass Effect is the lack of magical colored bars to think for you.

Except that, for the most part, the bars in ME don't really tell right or wrong.

Yeah it is more like Blue = Captain Kirk and Red = Space Jerk,

[Walina]

Interesting, I wonder if I will also a hard time finding out if he is evil or not but I usually don't have problem like the elf who had to die to put an end of curse on the werewolves, cause he had to right to curse the children who did nothing to his daughter.

So I will probably be friend with the son of Howe~

Modifié par Walina, 19 mars 2010 - 02:41 .

[MiSsSmOkEy20]

I let him live, I thought his idea in Awakening was a lot better then the on in The Calling. People can still stay as people and the darkspawn can be free of the calling sounds like a win win to me..

[Walina]

MiSsSmOkEy20 wrote...

I let him live, I thought his idea in Awakening was a lot better then the on in The Calling. People can still stay as people and the darkspawn can be free of the calling sounds like a win win to me..

But we've to be aware of something : Darkspawn eat human, elves and
dwarves so even if they will be freed one day from the "curse" they will
still need to eat and so far I didn't saw or read that they eat animals
too for replacing human flash (oh god, now I think about, it's the same
for the undead in Warcraft, th've became freed from the Lich king
>.>" but well, they don't need flesh to survive...).

[Thor Rand Al]

Walina wrote...

MiSsSmOkEy20 wrote...

I let him live, I thought his idea in Awakening was a lot better then the on in The Calling. People can still stay as people and the darkspawn can be free of the calling sounds like a win win to me..

But we've to be aware of something : Darkspawn eat human, elves and
dwarves so even if they will be freed one day from the "curse" they will
still need to eat and so far I didn't saw or read that they eat animals
too for replacing human flash (oh god, now I think about, it's the same
for the undead in Warcraft, th've became freed from the Lich king
>.>" but well, they don't need flesh to survive...).

Good point on what they will eat.  I know it might seem trivial compared to the bigger picture but that is a dang good point.

[beelzeybob]

The darkspawn can cannibalize each other. When they become "freed" or grey wardens, they may possibly have the chance at having an omnivorous diet.