106 réponses à ce sujet

[ObserverStatus]

Koyasha wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Rachni queen was lying all along to get spared.

2. Rachni were indoctrinated. But it's their fault. And they will be indoctrinated again, when the reapers come (provided you saved the queen and it somehow miraculously escaped unnoticed from a frozen world with high-end battlestations in orbit).

While honestly I would really, really hope that #1 is true, I doubt it is.  Wouldn't make sense for her to send an emissary to talk to Shepard if it was.  She got away, nobody knows where she is, and as long as she doesn't go a murderin', Shepard isn't even going to try to come after her, and it would be unwise to go a murderin' so soon without having gathered a massive fleet.

#2 is more likely to be possible, and honestly I really hope that the decision to spare the rachni - or any 'feel good but tactically unsound' decision, for that matter, comes back to bite Shepard in the butt someday.  Doing the 'paragon' thing often turns out to be the wrong long-term choice, and I would be quite pleased if they take the hard, realistic line, and there are at least a couple examples of such decisions that turn out very badly, whether it's with this decision or others.

I'd like to see the Renegade Shepard get spaced by a pissed off Shiala who was miraculously resurrected by thorian spores, but that's not gunna happen.

[Wildecker]

LPPrince wrote...

Did either of you play ME2?

The Leviathan of Dis was the Derelict Reaper we took the IFF from.

TIM mentioned they found the weapon that caused The Great Rift Valley on Klendagon.

Batarians moved the Derelict Reaper from Dis to wherever it was found in ME2(slipped my mind).

Lord knows what happened to them. Well, indoctrinated obviously, but from there.

No way.

Cerberus figured out the course of the projectile from the rift on Klendagon, then went in both directions and discovered the gun and the target. But if the shot-down target had been moved by a third party, they'd never have discovered it.
I suggest that both the gun and the dead reaper are in the same system. After all, even with your bullet moving at a fraction of the speed of light, why would you shoot at another solar system in the hope that in a few years your chosen target will pass right through?
The shot that grazed Klendagon was a near-miss of the Reaper and just travelled on, exactly like the Gunnery Chief on the Citadel explains to his audience.

[Shadowomega23]

Well from what I read of the of Revelation Saren didn't name Nazarn, Sovereign it was named that by someone else, most likely Qian who found the ship. When the ship was first found it was "beyond the Perseus Veil, near the edge of geth space: (ME: Revelation page 322). It even stats Saren was coventing power over "every race that paid homage to the Citadel" (ME: Revelation page 322) even before coming in contact with Sovereign.

Now my theroy is that the Rachi where ment as a test to those that made the Citadel home, but not to see whom will be the chosen race but to push along tech development so that their where the reapers want them. The Asari and Salarens most likely didn't have to many colonies at the time, and where no where near what the Protheans had developed. War pushes tech ever further, and also causes policy changes. After the incident the concil made it policy not to open unexplored Mass Relays unless they knew where they where going. Thus this caused the first conflict war with the humans later, granted Soverign couldn't have forsaw this. Also I believe Sovereign also took part in the awakening of the geth, I know tali mentions improvements where made but nothing of true AI research. Now it is likely Sovereign was likely still looking for allies to help reopen the citadel at this time and decide to push the geth further along then the Quarians wanted, but didn't reveal himself till later due to the fact he may have been found out and could have been destroyed. So later expecting the geth to automaticly follow him he goes there and only gets a small portion to break off and follow. These would be the Heretic geth that attack Eden Prime. With this race being at the forefront of the attack his present would be easily dissmissed at one of their construsts. Thus giving blame to the whole race of geth. I also believe that the reason no ship has returned from the veil with a living crew is like cause by the geth had already split. So it is likely Sovereign did make contact with the geth not long after the last Quarian Vessels left the veil.

Now the Leviethen of Dis could be either another dead reaper hulk or the hulk of one of the races that came before but fell fighting the reapers above the planet. This vessel could have been cut apart and moved for further study, or its Mass Effect core was brought back online and lifted from the planets surface. It could very be likely that this ship if built with bio-metal tech like the reapers it could be that the race that built it tried the very thing that TIM planned on doing if you kept the collector base intact, maybe even use cloning tech so as not to avoid drawing attention to the loss of human colonies like the collectors did when they tried to make their own human reaper. Also from the massive field of Debre field on the other side of the omega-4 relay it is likely that the race that made the reapers had made all their reapers at that same station. It is also likely that the race had split into factions and one faction sought out away of immortality and turned themselves into the reapers. The other faction of that race didnt like where this was going and may have even been at war with them already and sent their fleet to destroy the shipyard. However they failed in this endevor and is likely why there is so many space hulks floating in that area, most of them did look like they saw heavy battle.

Modifié par Shadowomega23, 18 mars 2010 - 09:49 .

[Mnemnosyne]

I don't understand why people think the Leviathan could be a reaper when it specifically mentions it's a genetically engineered ship. While we now know that some genetic material is used in reaper construction, Sovereign's remains showed no such evidence, nor did the derelict reaper show any such evidence, at least as far as we could see. They both seem like entirely mechanical constructs.



So why would anyone identify a reaper as a genetically engineered living ship, when by all appearances, even when examining the wreckage in detail, they appear to be purely mechanical constructs?

[superimposed]

The Leviathan most probably has a link to the reapers, because of it's organic-synthetic link. It could very well be a predecessor to the reapers, though.

[Mnemnosyne]

Yes, and that is the first ever sign of that. (Ignoring the fact that there's no such thing as an 'organic energy signature' - that was a really, really stupid line to write). So clearly a reaper can only be easily identified as part organic during its construction phase. Once completed, it appears to be entirely mechanical. After all, if it was so simple to realize reapers are partly organic, it would have been detected way back in ME1, or during the derelict reaper mission the Normandy would have detected it as soon as EDI scanned that reaper. Whatever evidence of the partly organic construction is clearly something that cannot be easily detected through either careful examination of the salvage, or from scans, once the reaper is completed.

[atheelogos]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

The Rachni Queen on Noveria mentions "a tone from space" that forced the
rachni to "resonate with its own sour yellow note". This hints that
there may have been more to the Rachni Wars than the Council was aware
of. This is confirmed in Mass Effect 2, depending on whether you
released the Queen, by a message given to Shepard by an asari who is in
service to the newly freed Queen. The asari tells Shepard that the Queen
believes Shepard is fighting the enemy who "soured" the rachni. She
also states that the queen is building an army to fight them when they
arrive in force, based on an otherwise unexplored planet. Shepard
concludes that the message is referring to the Reapers, either through
agents, such as the Collectors, or directly.

From the Wiki.

Okay, so the Rachni Wars were caused by indoctrination, right? Well, indoctrination by who? Sovereign is a possibility, but his function was to open the Citadel relay, not indoctrinate an entire species (also raises the question of 'where exactly was Sovereign, before the game started?' Did the Reapers send him out 'on foot' once the Citadel Relay didn't open? Was he waiting in the galaxy? Maybe at the Collector Base?).

Any thoughts? If it wasn't Sovereign, then there's another Reaper/Reaper agent floating around the rachni homeworld. I don't think the Collectors can indoctrinate...

Your reading way too much into this my friend. Sovereign got its hands on the poor Rachni and used them as a tool so he could get to the Citadel and fix the keepers and signal.

"Did the Reapers send him out 'on foot' once the Citadel Relay didn't
open?" No he was always here waiting for the right time. This is old news that was found out in ME1.

"Maybe at the Collector Base?)." I'm sure he stopped by there a few times over the 50,000 years he's been in the milkyway.

"Sovereign is a possibility, but his function was to open the Citadel
relay, not indoctrinate an entire species"   Yes Sovereign's job was to make sure the keepers opened the Mass Relay. Indoctrinating the Rachni was part of that. 

[Computron2000]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Umanix wrote...

Maybe the rachni were indoctrinated in a
similar fashion to the scientists on the derelict Reaper from Mass
Effect 2?

There would still need to be Reaper presence around for that; I believe both Benezia and Rana Thanoptis tell you that indoctrination happens passively, just by being around a Reaper; they don't need to try, and I doubt they could turn it off even if they had a reason to.

there no need for a Reaper. they have indoctrination evices. Once of which is in the ME2 N7 missions. Stick it near their nests and watch it go.

[Lightice_av]

Though I'd still argue that killing her was the responsible choice, though not necessarily the "right" one.

Committing a genocide "just in case" is not a responsible decision, nor a right one. Murdering a person for the deeds of their ancestors is absurd. You could use the same justification for the massacre of the entire human race; we've been dangerous and violent too! 

Modifié par Lightice_av, 18 mars 2010 - 01:19 .

[Lightice_av]

I don't enjoy killing the queen, but what I enjoy even less is playing god with the lives of other just so I don't ahve to live with a painful decision.

How is genocide not playing god with the lives of others? Don't the rachni count as people? Are they less worthy because they aren't humanoid and don't communicate with voice?

Remember the originally assumed reasons to the Rachni War, before we learned about the indoctrination? That the rachni were territorial, and hostile towards those who would enroach their areas of space. That reason too was simply self-defense gone too far. The rachni wouldn't have deserved to be exterminated, even if the war had been their fault; just isolated.

It's the quarian question all over again. They didn't know the geths' intentions, but they knew their capabilities. They knew that if the geth became violent they threatened the survival of the species. Thus they couldn't risk allowing the geth to attack first.

The quarians didn't even think of other choices; how would criminalizing the geth slavery would have sounded like? Exterminating a race of slaves when it becomes clear that they are capable of rebelling is just as unethical as it sounds like.

[devilsgrin]

i think the decision of whether is the right, wrong, responsible, god-playing choice comes down to your Shep's origin and Moral stance. A Paragon is more likely to feel that the Rachni deserve their chance. they were annihillated last time after all, so its not like the galaxy couldn't fix Shep's mistake. A Renegade, by contrast is more likely to kill the queen, coz of the threat the rachni represent - or have represented in the past.

throw in the sole survivor, ruthless, and war hero and you get a whole mess of what should they/would they do. Ruthless and Sole Survivor both could go either way quite easily, both seeing the potential uses for an allied rachni, aswell as the threat. A war hero, i always see as more black and white... seems a hero would kill them paragon or renegade...since he/she did hold of waves of attackers to save the lives of others, killing the rachni would be for him doing the same, but pre-emptively.

[WarChicken78]

Koyasha wrote...

Ignoring the fact that there's no such thing as an 'organic energy signature'

Says who? Maybe that mass, the reaper is filled with won't have one, but all liveforms on earth that have a nerve system can have an energy signature. Your cells communicate with electricity, and that electricity is measurable.
I see no reason why in the future this should not be readable from a distance.

Modifié par WarChicken78, 18 mars 2010 - 01:41 .

[Mcjon01]

Shandepared wrote...

I don't enjoy killing the queen, but what I enjoy even less is playing god with the lives of other just so I don't ahve to live with a painful decision.

The funny thing is how the exact same justification could be used for letting the queen live.  I suppose it all comes down to perspective.

Shandepared wrote...

It's same reason I apprehend/kill Balak and sacrifice Kate Bowman. I'd prefer to save her and the other engineers, but the cost is too high. Balak is simply too dangerous to let go.

I might have agreed with you here until I played ME2.  The fact that it seems like pretty much every Batarian that left their homeworld is a dangerous criminal/terrorist makes it seem like the net effect of killing just one of them, no matter how vile, would be exactly nothing.  Some other piece of Batarian scum would just fill the void.  Better to just save the lives in front of you.

Shandepared wrote...

It's the quarian question all over again. They didn't know the geths' intentions, but they knew their capabilities. They knew that if the geth became violent they threatened the survival of the species. Thus they couldn't risk allowing the geth to attack first.

Obviously with hindsight we know now that the geth never had any intention of harming the quarians, but the quarians had no way of knowing that at the time and so there'd have been no way to justify a diplomatic course of action.

From the conversations in the game, it sounds less like the Quarians were being pragmatic about a possible threat from the Geth, so much as they were hoping to shut them all down while they were still just farming equipment to avoid the inevitable PR ****storm that would come their way if the council races found out they had accidentally created an entire race of AIs.  They were just too late, and the Geth took it poorly.  Who knows how it would have turned out if the Geth were more entrenched in their sentience before anyone noticed.

[Lightice_av]

The rachni are gone, I'm not exterminating them, I'm preventing their ressurection.

The rachni were brought back. If the argument was about preventing Binary Helix from resurrecting them I might agree with you, but it's been already done. The Queen is her race; its history, it's memories, its ancestors, all in one package.

I'm still not convinced the rachni war was caused by indoctrination. I need more than just hearsay as evidence of that. Or at least I need it from a compelling a source.

The asari on Illium seems pretty compelling. Remember that the asari are telepathic, like the rachni. She would have known if the Queen had lied to her. The Queen can't mind control people just like that; if she could, she would have escaped on her own long before you got there.

They did not try to exterminate a race of slaves; they tried to shut down malfunctioning machines whose existence threatened the survival of quarian civilization. They did nothing wrong.

Well, aside from attempting to exterminate another sentient race they had brought to existence...There are other approaches besides violence, you know? Or do you think that it would have been justified to prevent the United States' Civil War by slaughtering all the black slaves?

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

who says they were indictrinated. the reapers have already shown a preference for created insect races, maybe the rachni are the reapers ground troops? left behind because the reapers don't have the room to take their armies into dark space.

[Mcjon01]

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

The funny thing is how the exact same justification could be used for letting the queen live.  I suppose it all comes down to perspective.

No it can't, as I explained.

Your batarian comment implies racism on your part. Congratulations? Like I said, you people are repulsive. The horrible thing is that you actually consider yourself a good person and you even think that your stance is the compassioante and pragmatic position! Utterly preposterous.

It would be racism if the Batarian government didn't actively have a caste system designed to make sure that pretty much the only people that get offworld are criminals and pirates.

And yes, it can.  You explained wrong.  The queen is alive, already, the ressurection of her species is done.  You aren't responsible for that.  It was a questionable choice at best, but it was Binary Helix's, not yours.  You are responsible for choosing to wipe out the queen and her entire race for something she had no part in, so good going there.