106 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcjon01]

If your choice has nothing to do with her species' actions in the Rachni Wars, then why are you so sure that she'll be responsible for millions of deaths down the line? You could just as easily frame the argument as a dilemma between killing the future of an entire species, or saving millions of lives by gaining a new ally.

[Xandurpein]

To me the whole choice about the Rachni Queen comes down to if you view the Rachni Queen as an individual or as part of a spieces. My Paragon Shepard isn't doesn't judge races, he judges individuals. The Rachni queen is obviously totally innocent of any wrongdoing as she has never been free to do anything criminal or evil in her life. If Shepard killed her it would be on the assumption that she would possibly do something wrong in the future.

I think that is why it is a renegade thing to kill the Rachni queen. She is innocent, but we kill her on the assumption that she belongs to a race that are known to have been bad before, i.e. judging her on guilt by association, rather than judging her on her own merits. Once you crossed the treshhold of killing individuals not for what they have done, but for they might do, it's really a big can of worms you've opened.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 mars 2010 - 02:24 .

[Mcjon01]

I dunno, going around killing people because of what they might do seems a bit... excessive. I'd prefer to have more than a maybe justifying my genocides.

[superimposed]

Xandurpein wrote...

To me the whole choice about the Rachni Queen comes down to if you view the Rachni Queen as an individual or as part of a spieces. My Paragon Shepard isn't doesn't judge races, he judges individuals. The Rachni queen is obviously totally innocent of any wrongdoing as she has never been free to do anything criminal or evil in her life. If Shepard killed her it would be on the assumption that she would possibly do something wrong in the future.

I think that is why it is a renegade thing to kill the Rachni queen. She is innocent, but we kill her on the assumption that she belongs to a race that are known to have been bad before, i.e. judging her on guilt by association, rather than judging her on her own merits. Once you crossed the treshhold of killing individuals not for what they have done, but for they might do, it's really a big can of worms you've opened.

It's a hive mind. What the queen thinks, the Rachni think.

[jklinders]

bobobo878 wrote...

I'll bet the Bugs were indoctrinated too

You lose many points for showing a clip of one of the worst movie adaptations ever. Dear god , the director did not even read the whole book that was his source material.

[Mcjon01]

I won't let fear compromise who I am.

[Mcjon01]

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

I won't let fear compromise who I am.

Well don't worry. When you and every other sapient being in the galaxy is dead you won't need to fear anything any longer. I meanwhile will have kept my galaxy alive and we'll have the luxury of feeling guilty about the choices we had to make for a while, and then we'll move on. Making a stand means nothing when in the end there will be nobody around to remember or honor it.

That's not true.  The Rachni would still be around, and they're perfectly sapient.  I'm sure they'd sing many beautiful songs in our honor, after they're done slaughtering us.

Of course, it's just as likely that your actions will directly result in millions of deaths and/or the deaths of every sapient being in the galaxy.  Hypothetical-land is a barren, death filled world, after all.

[superimposed]

But there are shifty looking cows.

[Goodwood]

Mcjon01 wrote...

I won't let fear compromise who I am.

QFT.

Shand is skeerd of teh rachni menace!

[jklinders]

Shandepared wrote...

jklinders wrote...

You lose many points for showing a clip of one of the worst movie adaptations ever. Dear god , the director did not even read the whole book that was his source material.

As satire and as entertainment I still think it is a great movie. Of-course I probably learn the wrong lessons from it.

Unintentional satire perhaps. There was some funny dialogue I'll grant, but I don't recall any satire. I do like how the bugs were portrayed though. Seems like about the only thing they got right.

[Vaenier]

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

The funny thing is how the exact same justification could be used for letting the queen live.  I suppose it all comes down to perspective.

No it can't, as I explained.

Your batarian comment implies racism on your part. Congratulations? Like I said, you people are repulsive. The horrible thing is that you actually consider yourself a good person and you even think that your stance is the compassioante and pragmatic position! Utterly preposterous.

I am pretty sure he is trolling. The overly hostile tone is uncalled for. Lets all try to keep it civil please.


The Rachni are a mistery, we had no idea of their intentions in their initial war. Talking to the queen, we learn that is was indeed the Reapers who started the attack with indoctrination. She could try to kill you with the Comando body, or try to mess with your mind, but instead she asks you to kill her lost children and spare the Rachni a second genocide.

She could be lieing, hell, the Coundil could be reaper spys for all we know. Paranoia is not an excuse for murder.

[superimposed]

Mystery.

[Mallissin]

Wildecker wrote...
Did it ever occur to you that the Leviathan on Dis was not a Reaper, let alone Sovereign/Nazara, but something else, and that the Batarians were involved in its disappearance?

It's a Reaper, and if I hear another person say it's Moya, I'm going to strangle them. Read Revelations, look at the dates, the Leviathan of Dis is Sovereign.

DipCheese83 wrote...

Didn't Vigil say the Reapers always
leave one of their own behind to (Sovereign).

You're going to trust a VI to theories and speculation? He said it was logical to assume Sovereign was left behind, but why would they leave Sovereign behind AND have the Collectors? Doesn't make sense when you add it up. Sovereign was on Dis, damaged much like the Reaper we found the IFF. The Battarians recovered Sovereign, Sovereign repaired over time (probably with help from indoctrinated Battarians or Geth), realized how much time had passed and didn't understand why the Citadel relay hadn't opened, Saren found him and Sovereign began using the Spectre to research what had happened with the Citadel. Thus begins ME1.

http://meforums.biow...&forum=123&sp=0

LPPrince wrote...

Did either of you play ME2?

The
Leviathan of Dis was the Derelict Reaper we took the IFF from.

TIM
mentioned they found the weapon that caused The Great Rift Valley on
Klendagon.

Batarians moved the Derelict Reaper from Dis to
wherever it was found in ME2(slipped my mind).

Lord knows what
happened to them. Well, indoctrinated obviously, but from there.

I played both games (but not Galaxy), and read the books, and flipped through the two comics, and the Leviathan of Dis is Sovereign. The Derelict is a completely different Reaper, but proves that there was a race that was able to take out a few Reapers before being destroyed.

Secondly, Klendagon is in Hawking Eta and Dis is in Hades Gamma. Which, if you look on the galaxy map, are no where near each other.

Shadowomega23 wrote...

Well from what I read of the of
Revelation Saren didn't name Nazarn, Sovereign it was named that by
someone else, most likely Qian who found the ship. When the ship was
first found it was "beyond the Perseus Veil, near the edge of geth
space: (ME: Revelation page 322). It even stats Saren was coventing
power over "every race that paid homage to the Citadel" (ME: Revelation
page 322) even before coming in contact with Sovereign.

Should be noted that Hades Gamma fits into the description from the book, since it rests on the Perseus Arm. See the Galaxy map above and compare to this from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia...._Spiral_Arm.svg

Turn the image counter clockwise (in your mind or Photoshop) to put the Local Cluster in the right place to compare with the ME galaxy map.

Anyway, I have no doubt that the Rachni were tainted by the Reapers, but we don't know how yet. If it was done recently, it would mean either the Collectors did it or there's another Reaper wandering around. If it wasn't done recently, it wouldn't fit into the Reaper's modus operandi of wiping out all sentient life in the galaxy during each cycle.

Modifié par Mallissin, 18 mars 2010 - 04:51 .

[ramdog7]

dipdunk wrote...

I would say Sovereign would only need to indoctrinate a queen. She would make the rest fall in line.

Yes that true. if you read indoctrination on the codex it will tell you that if the leader of the nation or ruler is

indoctrinated then he wil bend to his rule his nation to do anything he or she says

[drew.winters]

Mallissin wrote...

It's a Reaper, and if I hear another person say it's Moya, I'm going to strangle them. Read Revelations, look at the dates, the Leviathan of Dis is Sovereign.

I have not read Revelation, but the Mass Effect Wiki states that Sovereign was discovered in 2162 while the Leviathan was discovered in 2163.  If this is correct, then Leviathan cannot be Sovereign.

I thought it was fairly clear that the Rachni were turned hostile by a Reaper, and that Sovereign was the only (functional) Reaper within our galaxy - ergo, Sovereign turned the Rachni hostile.  The most obvious motivation for this would be an attack on the Citadel, but there are some difficulties with this claim.  The only other thing I'd like to point out is that this is a work of fiction, written by multiple authors - it is likely that not every fact presented will be consistent with every other fact.  Furthermore, depending on the quality of writing, the motivations of the characters may be inconsistent, weak, unbelievable, etc.  (especially since even real people often act inconsistentally, illogically, etc.)  What I'm trying to say is that in analyzing a question like this too deeply, you may be misled.  Look for the most obvious solution and try not to over-complicate it.  Occam's Razor.

Shandepared, I'm going to be blunt with you:  It's time for you to be quiet.  Not only are you acting juvenile and hostile, but you're also hijacking the thread.  If you would like to argue the ethics of genocide and utilitarianism, start a new thread and try to be civil.  At least recognize that your ethical system is rarely argued for among learned ethicists.  I.e., have some humility.

Modifié par drew.winters, 18 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[Mallissin]

drew.winters wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

It's a Reaper, and if I hear another person say it's Moya, I'm going to strangle them. Read Revelations, look at the dates, the Leviathan of Dis is Sovereign.

I have not read Revelation, but the Mass Effect Wiki states that Sovereign was discovered in 2162 while the Leviathan was discovered in 2163.  If this is correct, then Leviathan cannot be Sovereign.

That was a guestimation, read the discussion.

http://masseffect.wi...reign#Discovery

The date for the Leviathan's discovery is also a guestimation. There was no mention of an exact year in the Codex or any book, just that the Battarians took the Leviathan "twenty years ago". ME1 took place in 2183, so exactly twenty years would be 2163, but that's assuming they meant exactly 20 years. In fact, I think I'll go argue about it on the Wiki!

Anyway, even if you accept the guestimations, are we going to argue about a year difference? Could have just been a math error on a writer's part or maybe it took a year for Had'dah to get a dreadnaught to pick it up. The fact the Leviathan and Sovereign were discovered in similar locations should also be heavily considered.

I thought it was fairly clear that the Rachni were turned hostile by a
Reaper, and that Sovereign was the only (functional) Reaper within our
galaxy - ergo, Sovereign turned the Rachni hostile.

Reapers were not mentioned during the Rachni discussion. If you read the transcript, it's more likely the tone dialog was talking about the Krogans exterminating the Rachni and not indoctrination. It's the "oily blackness" line that has people assuming Reaper indoctrination. And Sovereign was not necessarily the only Reaper in the Milky Way, either. For someone dropping "Occam's Razor", you're taking some pretty big leaps.

http://meforums.biow...&forum=123&sp=0

That aside, I'm pretty sure Sovereign was not involved with the Rachni. I hope the Rachni play a big part in ME3 so we can figure out what happened, but I have a feeling the whole Rachni subplot is really just an allusion to Ender's Game. In the books, the Buggers attack on Humanity wasn't hostile but a galactic misunderstanding.

Modifié par Mallissin, 18 mars 2010 - 07:13 .

[Mnemnosyne]

If you continue to persist in insisting the Leviathan is Sovereign, how about addressing the point that no one would think a fully-constructed reaper like Sovereign to be a "genetically engineered living starship"?



Sovereign appears entirely mechanical, even the pieces recovered after its destruction at the Citadel.

[Mallissin]

Koyasha wrote...

If you continue to persist in insisting the Leviathan is Sovereign, how about addressing the point that no one would think a fully-constructed reaper like Sovereign to be a "genetically engineered living starship"?

Sovereign appears entirely mechanical, even the pieces recovered after its destruction at the Citadel.

It had arms, eyes and a thorax. Why would someone build a ship like that?

The Reapers look organic in origin, hence the "genetically engineered living starship".

It's also mentioned in ME2 that the Reapers are partially organic, hence the tens of thousands of humans being goo'd.

Modifié par Mallissin, 18 mars 2010 - 09:05 .

[ObserverStatus]

*edit* Sovereign definitely looked organic. It looked like an electron microscope image of a louse.

Modifié par bobobo878, 18 mars 2010 - 09:08 .

[Shadowomega23]

Well on the chat with the queen she also stayed a yellow sour note resonated with in the song that cause the problem, this line also sounds like what the farmer mentioned on edon prime when Sovereign landed, "a sound that bored right into your brain." Also if another reaper was roaming around the galaxy it would have likely teamed up with Sovereign to on the battle of the citadel. The reapers must have a communication system with long range capablity maybe even the same system that is on the SR2, the quantum entanglement system. Also Sovereign was the one to be left behind to activate the citadel relay, it is unlikely he would bury himself on a planet when it is easier and safer to hide in a stable nebual. Remember it is hard to find anything by looking for heat signitures with in a nebual anyway, that is why you needed to head to Noveria in the first place to get direction to the illos relay. By staying in space Sovereign could easily move around during maybe a year or decade of being online to take messure of the galaxy situation. Then find a safe nebual to shut down and save resources while waiting.

As for the Reaper in me 2 that one was killed by the Massive Cannon that made the massive trench on that one planet. Simple CSI work would allow one to track the shot that hit the planet back to its source of origan, and its destination. But first you need to figure out the time the shot was taken then run a prediction program that uses given all planetary rotation data and have it go back to the way things where allined all those milliana ago. This would give you the few of the system layout on the day that shot hit the planet with that you do the tracking. Now for the multiple hole in that reaper, if the round that hit the planet also hit the reaper it is likely that round splintered before impact but still had enought Kinetic energy to punch though the haul. It is also likely several round where fired not just one but this over use could have been what damage the cannon.

On the part about the metal, if the metal is part bio-logical it is likely that the metal is able to self regenerate giving the proper resources. Thus is why I suggested bio-metal. Metal itself is a mineral however if an organic componet is grafted to it with the proper tech it is possible that is where the reading of oraginc materials are being found.

Modifié par Shadowomega23, 18 mars 2010 - 09:09 .

[Internet Kraken]

masseffectfan00 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

masseffectfan00 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Harbinger wanted to create a Reaper from the Rachni. He believed that the Rachni had the greatest potential. Based on the Keepers and Collectors, one can assume that they favor insectoid species, or at least find them to be useful. So he manipulated the Rachni so that they would overwhelm all of the other species and become dominant in the galaxy, much like the Protheans were.

/crazy speculation

Protheans got changed into the Collectors.

Yeah, becuase the Prothean Reaper failed. What exactly is your point?

Protheans weren't these insect dudes like the Collectors.  They originally looked like the statues on Ilos.  You said the Reapers favored insect types dudes but it's just a coinsidence

I know that. But if the Reapers don't favor insectoid species, then why did they turn the Protheans into bugs rather than keep them in their original form? Why do they use the Keeper, rather than some other species? It's not neccesairly true, but it make some sense.