86 réponses à ce sujet

[cachx]

I for one, loved this new "system" it just felt more natural, less obstructive. Don't get my wrong, I loved origins and it's characters, but going to camp and skipping through the same dialogue trees over and over in hopes of finding something new was not exactly fun. If Awakenings characters don't feel as deep, is purely because of lack of screentime (it's only 15h vs. 40+h).



Awakenings is a pretty good game (minus a few annoying bugs, and perhaps a bit overpriced) and it's a shame that it gets bashed just because over-fanatical people can't get over the fact that there are no LIs in it, boo hoo. Things like character's romance (or characer's death) should be handled with care and not abused.



Oh FYI, Oghren's (and as far as I can tell, everyone's) quest dialogue is "unlocked" at 75+ approval.

[Bryy_Miller]

ejoslin wrote...

Maybe she mentioned him by name because he said in another thread that the dialog system was seriously broken... I have to agree with her.  It's not broken, and it's disheartening to see him say it is.

Once again, that is not something David Gaider would of worked on.

[kam5087]

SirOccam wrote...

Apallous wrote...

This isn't some sort of single player cheesy cyber-sex roleplay romance generator, but hey if thats what you're into there are mods for that.

I'm so tired of arguments like this. "You liked the romances? Then clearly you're just desperate and lonely in real life or are some kind of pervert!"

Why is it that romantic storylines are so looked down upon while slaughtering scores of people and darkspawn is accepted as a matter of course? Why aren't people insinuating that people who enjoy the violent parts have anger management issues or secretly long to murder someone in real life?

It's a game. A very richly detailed game with complex, multi-faceted characters and a wonderful system for developing relationships between those characters. This is a good thing, and to miss a major portion of it when it has been removed is only natural. Games full of nothing but mindless slaughter are a dime a dozen, but hey if that's what you're into feel free to ignore everything but the killing. The rest of us, meanwhile, enjoy the deeper, more personal drama that you can't get anywhere else.

I have to agree with SirOccam...completely. DA:O was great, for most of us, because of the interaction between the characters. I say "most" as I read the forums, and I didn't see anyone griping about the chat options or the romance possibilities until now. For the others that felt those "relationships" were just fluff and not an integral part of the game for them, so be it. No one said people cannot play the game as they choose, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone for choosing to ignore the aspects of the game I clearly enjoyed.

Having said all that, count me in with anyone who thinks the potential exists for ruining any further expansions down the road by ignoring how the vast majority of people who enjoyed the game felt about their companions and being able to interact with them, romance or not. Having a writer say the chat system was broken in DA:O...it doesn't bode well. The OP was spot on and the chat option in DA:O was not broken...it made the game better than any I've played before, or after...everything else just pales in comparison. After all, DA:O is a RPG, not just some shoot 'em up and be done with it. If that's what some people like then DA is not the game for you...there are plenty of other games out there that would suit you better. If BioWare changes any future expansions to exclude this aspect of the original, I, for one, am not interested and will choose, as is my perogative, not to give them another nickel. They could have at least thrown the majority a bone with this expansion and given us something to latch on to with these characters, instead, we got nothing. How disappointing.

Modifié par kam5087, 19 mars 2010 - 02:24 .

[ejoslin]

Given how much people like DA:A despite how much more expensive it is content-to-price, I'd expect future games to be closer is quality and length to Awakenings than to Origins. WHY go through the expense of making a game like Origins that you can sell for $60- $70 when you can make something that probably costs 1/8 to produce (if that) and charge $40?



Of course, maybe they're aware that Awakenings sold as many copies as it did because of Origins. Maybe not. Maybe the profit margin is enough they would sacrifice sales. I hope not! But I bet it will happen.

[Addai]

If the goal was to cut down on pure exposition, it feels to me like the opposite was achieved. If I get a conversation with one of the Awakening followers, it's so brief and to the point that I know it's just so that I can tick off a point I'm supposed to know about them. "Ok, Anders doesn't like to be trapped- check. Nathaniel's grandfather was a Warden- check." By the end of the mini-conversation, I don't know the character, nor do I know my PC any better, I certainly don't feel like they've "bonded" (or de-bonded, as the case may be) at all, I just know a tidbit of information. 

I gather that some focus group or other that EA pulled in whined about their short attention span, and now my PC and I are forced to participate in their ADHD.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2010 - 02:56 .

[Addai]

cachx wrote...
over-fanatical people can't get over the fact that there are no LIs in it, boo hoo. 

Adventures in missing the point...

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2010 - 02:59 .

[Kalem40]

ejoslin wrote...

There are games out there that have good stories, maybe even better combat, fun quests, etc. What sets DA:O above them is how you bond with your companions.

Amen.

Modifié par Kalem40, 19 mars 2010 - 03:02 .

[ejoslin]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Maybe she mentioned him by name because he said in another thread that the dialog system was seriously broken... I have to agree with her.  It's not broken, and it's disheartening to see him say it is.

Once again, that is not something David Gaider would of worked on.

Once again, David Gaider is the one who said it was broken. I'm not sure what is difficult about that to understand.  Are you saying he didn't work on the post where he wrote that?  Or did you misread my post that you quoted?  Fortunately, he seems to be taking the concerns of people into consideration, as evidenced later in that thread.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 03:03 .

[Sabriana]

*******Spoilers abound below**************





You know, I watched a friend play through, and we started chatting with each other all through, just going through the motions of the game. Quick glance at dialogue, take the obvious choice. Story-wise, there was no need to pay close attention, everything was rather obvious. Holding court? No problem, there was no question about ethics and morals, it was so straightforward..

As far as the companions go, they were bland and uninteresting. What makes them tick? Nothing that we could figure, we only saw the very tip of the ice-berg there. Anders wants freedom, Howe still can't believe that he never knew his dad, Velanna envies humans for their stories - all sounded very pin-pointed. I fully agree, Addai. No back-stories, no digging for thoughts behind the quirks/believes, nothing.

There were two things that really pulled us back into the game: Ohgren's dream about Branka, Hespith, and tea with lemon, and the templar telling my friend's PC that the chantry overrules the crown in certain matters. Say what? Now that was interesting, and worthy to discuss. Alas, so far those are the only really discussion-worthy things we encountered.

And oh yeah, the mysterious disapproval by Velanna and Anders when his PC talked to the chanter. It's highly possible we missed something, we weren't paying all that close attention at that point, but even that is pretty bad.

If anyone even tried to pull me into a conversation when I was playing DA:O, he/she could've told me the secret of life and death, and I wouldn't have heard a word. I was completely captured by this wonderful, great game that was DA:O. It's sad that it might be the last of its genre. I shall treasure it.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

*******Spoilers abound below**************


You know, I watched a friend play through, and we started chatting with each other all through, just going through the motions of the game. Quick glance at dialogue, take the obvious choice. Story-wise, there was no need to pay close attention, everything was rather obvious. Holding court? No problem, there was no question about ethics and morals, it was so straightforward..
As far as the companions go, they were bland and uninteresting. What makes them tick? Nothing that we could figure, we only saw the very tip of the ice-berg there. Anders wants freedom, Howe still can't believe that he never knew his dad, Velanna envies humans for their stories - all sounded very pin-pointed. I fully agree, Addai. No back-stories, no digging for thoughts behind the quirks/believes, nothing.
There were two things that really pulled us back into the game: Ohgren's dream about Branka, Hespith, and tea with lemon, and the templar telling my friend's PC that the chantry overrules the crown in certain matters. Say what? Now that was interesting, and worthy to discuss. Alas, so far those are the only really discussion-worthy things we encountered.
And oh yeah, the mysterious disapproval by Velanna and Anders when his PC talked to the chanter. It's highly possible we missed something, we weren't paying all that close attention at that point, but even that is pretty bad.
If anyone even tried to pull me into a conversation when I was playing DA:O, he/she could've told me the secret of life and death, and I wouldn't have heard a word. I was completely captured by this wonderful, great game that was DA:O. It's sad that it might be the last of its genre. I shall treasure it.

Well said.  When I first started playing DA:O, I could not stop playing.  And I went through so many different emotions, not only the love interests, but the friendships as well.  I felt a bond -- these people who were helping me fight the blight against all odds and all chances of success.

I played and finished Awakenings. I can't even remember the name of the Dalish or the dwarf companion, though of course I'd recognize them.  Towards the end, I was just selecting whatever -- I had no care whatsoever about my choices.  Letting Amaranthine burn -- well, I remember a line from DA:O about Grey Wardens burning villages to save the many.  That was Ser Gilmore.  And I bet just about everyone knows who that is.  The NPCs from DA:O were more memorable than the companions from DA:A.  And we got more backstory about a lot of them as well.

I may play it again.  I'm in no hurry to do so.  I am back to DA:O with the campfire chats, dialog choices that aren't straight forward, approval I actually care about...  It's still fantastic.  

[Jaulen]

Wow, there are a lot of people on this thread that lack reading comprehension....how many times does it have to be riterated that DG stated that he thought the convo set-up in DA:O was broken for you to understand why this topic is being addressed to him? And I don't see any people complaining on here (like was done prior to release) about the lack of LI's. (Yes it would hav ebeen nice if the letters had been given out...or LI's from DA:O were somehow recognized, but it IS an expansion, so it's understandable)



What I don't get is those people who are saying "It's an expansion! Of COURSE it's going to be different!" Why? Wouldn't an expansion build on and tweak what was good about the original game? Why go with a whole new dialogue set-up?



Personally, I would like to see a combination of interparty interaction, party member interaction with the environment (because thare are times in DA:O where I'd come across something, or something would happen and I'd be waiting for SOMEONE to say something, but no...), and the ability to have PC initiated conversations......because those conversation really allowed you to get to know party members in a little more depth.



Like others have stated, use Sten as an example. I disliked him the first time through the game, thought he was a total jerk. But then by the end of the game, when I was able o slowly and painfully build up is approval, and he called tghe PC 'kadan' I thought that was a very touching moment. Felt just as good as slaying Loghain, or killing the high dragon, or whatever...if the conversation had just been a check the box, here's a tidbit of information about the character, Sten would have been left in camp, instead now when I play through DA:O, once I get him, he's a permanent member of my party.



I haven't started DA:A yet, so my opinion is based on reading what others have to say, I'm going to try to keep an open mind, but, from what I'm hearing, one of my main reasons for liking DA game in the first place has been lost. I play to RPG, not to just go hack and slash. Heck for that I'll go play Army of Two or something.

[Ghrelt]

I believe that the expansion was created to try some new ideas, tweak some old ones, and get some feedback from the fans. I don't believe that this expansion was meant to take the game in a different direction. DA2 will take the best of both worlds, and combine them.

[roundcrow]

Ellythe wrote...

I believe that the expansion was created to try some new ideas, tweak some old ones, and get some feedback from the fans. I don't believe that this expansion was meant to take the game in a different direction. DA2 will take the best of both worlds, and combine them.

This.  It does feel like they were trying out different directions.  It's nice that you can get a product of this caliber when experimenting, though.   

Another thing is DA:O felt like it had depth because of the richness of the background detail.  Awakening may feel shallow because less of it was included.  I think that a. it's something that goes on the chopping block quickly if corners need to be cut and b. maybe they didn't want to paint themselves into a corner with new canon.

[ejoslin]

I am amazed.  Ok, I can understand not reading a 3 page long  thread, but what about the TITLE?  Here's a link to the post where David Gaider said the dialog system is broken.  Look at the second paragraph.

Whether you agree or not is a different issue.  And he does seem to take people's reactions into account.  But please stop arguing whether he said it or not.  He DID!

Edit: It just seems that people are making this thread to be about something different than what it's about.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 04:38 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Apallous wrote...

I completely disagree with the OP.

I think there was plenty of character developement in Awakening I just wish the game lasted a little longer. I love the rich back stories but why would I want to idle in town clicking away on a PC, I rather the back stories be unvealed while I'm playing through the game. This isn't some sort of single player cheesy cyber-sex roleplay romance generator, but hey if thats what you're into there are mods for that. Do I really have to boost my character's moral every new game by standing in lothering and spaming each one with "conversations," for 30 minutes.

I was wanting it to last longer too, I kept feeling like I was missing something only to realize that there weren't any more quests to do besides the endgame.

As for romance in Awakening... Seriously? I was fine with the flirting. God, trying to imagine adding all the dialogue for all the romancable companions just to screw one or two per playthrough, blegh. It worked in Origins but Awakenings is too short to want romance in.

I did find it funny that Rose could flirt with Anders though.

[rak72]

The more I play, the more I hate this new system

[pyroriot67]

i hate the new chat system and thats the reason i enjoy origins way more then awakening i mean come on it felt like i was playing fallout with the same followers who barely talk to me.I had to find a tree or a statue to spark a convo that didnt even reveal alot.The only thing they did right in awakening as far as dialog was the plot gifts and the random convos when you walked in certan spots between party members .........Dont get me wrong awakenng was a VERY good expansion but im hoping to see more of the origins experiance in the sequal

[Master Shiori]

Awakening was an expansion with 1/10 of Origins's budget.



It's no surprise the the amount and length of dialogue would be smaller than in Origins.



Now, I'm not exactly thrilled with the idea of having to search for dialogue triggers around the world map, especially if those triggers often don't even stand out or you can't easily tell which character they relate to.



On the other hand, it was frustrating that in Origins you could basically burn through most of the dialogue during a single conversation. Even if that conversation could last up to 30 min.



Dialogue in Awakening was work-in-progress, something new that Bioware wanted to try out. That doesn't mean the conversation style from Origins will be removed completelly or that the one in Awakening won't be further changed and improved based on player feedback.



David Gaider did say that the end result in DA2 might easily turn out to be a mix of the 2 styles.

[Lord Gremlin]

Awakening... I enjoyed it (less than origins, but still), and of course it's obvious that they made it impossible to talk to companions to save time and money.

Of course it'll be unforgivable in full sequel, but then again - you don't think people at Bioware are stupid, don't you? They know that players love those conversations (and hell I'm sure they've been thinking about how many people will instantly buy the game the moment they hear that Morrigan is in it).

[Aulis Vaara]

Master Shiori wrote...

On the other hand, it was frustrating that in Origins you could basically burn through most of the dialogue during a single conversation. Even if that conversation could last up to 30 min.

I don't understand this. People keep saying that, while your party members kick you out of the conversation system every so often, telling you to get on with your quests. Sure, you can talk to them again if you wish, but that is YOUR choice, and clearly not what the game is telling you to do.

The fact that you can burn through a lot of conversation is one go is not a bad thing. Different people want to know different things first, but don't complain that you can, because the game gives you clear indications that perhaps it's time to go do something else now, and that you can continue the talk next time you come to camp.


Also, every time you call the expansion Awakenings, a kitty dies. -- Aimed at people in general, not Master Shiori, he actually did it right.

Modifié par Aulis Vaara, 11 juin 2010 - 12:52 .

[Murphys_Law]

ejoslin wrote...

Maybe she mentioned him by name because he said in another thread that the dialog system was seriously broken... I have to agree with her.  It's not broken, and it's disheartening to see him say it is.

As far as speaking for a majority -- there's a reason that DAO won all the awards it did. It was the conversations, the getting to know the companions, that set it apart from everything else. I could see if DAO was a flop and was panned why they'd think it was broken. But instead, it was voted GOTY rpg, GOTY of all PC games, all the gaming sites was giving it perfect or close-to-perfect scores. Saying most people didn't find it broken is pretty fair.

What I really don't understand is why, when something was THAT successful, why it's being seen as a failure and something that needs to be completely overhauled.

Edit: yes, I did.  My first sentence sounded like I was saying the complete opposite of what I was saying!  Also clarified that it won PC GOTY, not just GOTY.  That was my bad.  I always think "PC" and forget about console games.

Excatly.  I find it hard to believe David Gaider has no influence on how the game turns out, otherwise why comment on the dialog system?  The dialog system is "broken" from their standpoint.  He mentioned that not everyone would go back to camp and talk to everyone and hated that they had to go check every so often.  So basically, the ADD Diablo hack and slash players didn't see their dialog all the way through.  I don't mean to stereotype, but if you are playing an RPG, how excatly can you not be bothered to go back to camp to talk to your companions (among all the other various tasks to do at camp)?  Sounds to me a player like that only cares about phat loots and killing monsters and they totally ignore the best part of DA:O....the story/characters.  Even if they change to the DA:A system, these players were just skip through the dialog anyway.  There are a lot better soultions to the "camp check" problem, such as simply having an indicator when characters have new things to say.  But of course, I realize that these types of players are the majority and BIoware will cater to them.  I just wish game companies were more aware that appealing to the masses does not always make the game better, simply because the masses did not really know excatly what they want nor due they see the conquences of some changes. 

[Tooneyman]

Add the mix of two. If you put any other kind of dialogue options. Your going to lose more customers then you made. Don't be stupid keep the dialogue options balanced and we may not have a problem.

[Giggles_Manically]

The best system would include all of these:



A) DAO style, talk at camp or anywhere

DA:A style, special dialouge points you get for bringing people along

C) Previous Bioware Games: More Dialouge unlocks after main missions are done.



I cant stand diablo, the loot hauling, identifying, and dungeon crawl drove me dingy,

[Master Shiori]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

On the other hand, it was frustrating that in Origins you could basically burn through most of the dialogue during a single conversation. Even if that conversation could last up to 30 min.

I don't understand this. People keep saying that, while your party members kick you out of the conversation system every so often, telling you to get on with your quests. Sure, you can talk to them again if you wish, but that is YOUR choice, and clearly not what the game is telling you to do.

The fact that you can burn through a lot of conversation is one go is not a bad thing. Different people want to know different things first, but don't complain that you can, because the game gives you clear indications that perhaps it's time to go do something else now, and that you can continue the talk next time you come to camp.


Also, every time you call the expansion Awakenings, a kitty dies. -- Aimed at people in general, not Master Shiori, he actually did it right.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing in general, but Bioware seems to think getting through most of companions dialogue lines at once  isn't how it should be done.

Still it's not as bad as in some of their earlier games like KOTOR, where you could go through the entire dilogue tree at once,  just by leaving the Ebon Hawk and entering it again.

Anyway, the point is that devs don't want this kind of behaviour to be possible, even if some people (myself included, since I can control my thrist for conversation with companions and spread the dialogue out over the course of the game) actually want to go through the entire dialogue at once.

[Patriciachr34]

Okay, after reading all the posts I had a thought of a hybrid system that might work well for most people. We like the in camp dialog. Cool. Lets keep some of that there. Everyone wants to sit around the fire and chat a bit. This would be a great way to obtain general knowledge about the character (where they're from, what they've been doing, etc.).



For more specific dialog, what if instead of clicking on an object to get area specific dialog options, you could click on the companions in your party and the area specific dialog would appear? Kind of like what you get if Lelianna is in your party and you ask her if she knows something about the area that you're in. The key could be that the party member makes a comment on the area, a specific person/object/animal, or a specific event. This is how you know that they have more dialog options available at that moment. This way the NPC's you travel with become more familiar to you than those you leave at camp. You also get the reactions some have been craving when specific choices or key events happen.



I am no programmer and have no idea how much of a nightmare the coding would be on this system. However, this seems to be a better way to approach the whole conversation system. What do you guys think?