95 réponses à ce sujet

[Durmir]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

I'm terribly sorry that you don't find common sense and an average grasp of marketing and economics 'interesting' here on your private forums.  Your miscomprehension here is that by "keeping the game living" they will somehow make money and that just isn't true.  They need to SELL  things to make money, and the way to sell things is to make them appeal to the largest audience.  Unfortunately, the largest audience are not pro gamers, they are average people that have a hard time coordinating mouse movements and keyboard commands and don't have the time to learn all of the ins and outs of a game.

You are, in effect, asking them to tailor the game to what you feel Nightmare should be when you say "make it harder because I find it too easy".   Which is ironic because you just asked them not to make it easier when people complained that it was too hard.  

As I said before, I would love to see a more difficult setting but common sense states that pulling designers and programmers away from other projects to work on it won't show a return on the investment.  Those employees could be working on other things such as bug fixes, expansions and DLCs all of which wil impact the majority of game owners and grow the brand.   Appeasing the 2% of people that want a harder game is a waste of money.

Who in the hell are you to say that Bioware didn't make their game 'right' or imply that they didn't test difficulties?   The difficulty levels do exactly what they say they do and nightmare is NOT the same as normal. If you are confused you can look at this chart to see exactly what the differences are.  Whop exactly is the troll here with their "Fail" topic?"  The word of the day is "Hypocrite".3

Actually, I have an idea!  Since you think that you can change all of the difficulty settings with a couple of lines of code and still present a balanced game, you should check this out.  I'm sure Bioware could bnefit from your obviously superior prorgamming skills.

Plz, I asked you to stop trolling. Can't you just be polite and... well, diplomat. If you want a troll contest, I'm willing to play with you, though I don't think it's good for the forum. So plz just stop, it's really annoying.

I think I know more about economics than you do (though I don't know you, but I don't think you know who I am and what I do neither, I would be very unlucky if you are really better than me).
Actually, fidelity in a game can make people more willing to buy add-ons, DLC, and future similar games. If you just drop a game, get a huge marketing campaign to sell many games, then you'll make a lot of money at first. Then, on the contrary, you won't sell anything in the future, if you don't keep watching at your players and try to get what they expect. plz get a simple common sense.

Moreover, plz read my posts before sying I'm the only one to claim it. You just are annoying, saying random junk.

Finally, I already know the mechanics, as I SAID mutliple times. But maybe you have some issues with your monitor so you can't read the posts as I wrote them.

Finally, PLZ (for the last time) stop trolling and insulting.
And plz stop saying some random junk. I'm sure people have intelligent things to say instead.

[Gliese]

@Sloth It's interesting that you showed that list from the missing manual stating the differences between difficulty levels and using it to argue that there is real differences since I was just about to use the very same list to support the argument that the differences are negligible.
I guess everyone has their subjective view on what constitutes meaningful differences between levels.

As for making money, the BG series gave Bioware an instant sale in DAO for me, the same currently does not hold true for their next RPG. They will have to work to earn my money next time.
It's not that DAO is bad, it's a good enough game, but it's not good enough to make me a certain customer and this largely has to do with the lack of challenge.

Modifié par Gliese, 18 mars 2010 - 05:39 .

[LH000]

Durmir wrote...


I think I know more about economics than you do (though I don't know you, but I don't think you know who I am and what I do neither, I would be very unlucky if you are really better than me).

Ah yes... so you are the man I saw on TV! One who won economics nobel prize, am I right?   (sry, I couldn't resist)

Durmir wrote...
I'm sure people have intelligent things to say instead.

I don't know what you mean. You just stated that hard and nightmare difficulties are too easy . Well, yes, I think most (of those, who like chalenging difficulties) would agree, but what intelligent is there to say? Low difficulty is result of an {something like) "fundamental flaw in game design" - bad AI plus unbalanced abilities. (I'm not trying to say that game is bad one, though.) 

Modifié par LH000, 18 mars 2010 - 05:44 .

[Durmir]

Usually, when intelligent people have nothing to say, then they say nothing
Obviously some people don't meet the requirements, though (not speaking of you, of course )

Oh, btw, I don't say I'm a future nobel prize in economics, nor I'm even someone known, I just say that I probably know more in economics than 95% of people (which doesn't mean I'm even good at it, I'm just less bad than others ) thanks to my studies and job. Nothing amazing in it. But I would be unlucky indeed if "Sloth of Doom " was one of the 5%
That's why I'm laughing when I read his comments, especially when they are SO wrong ^^

Modifié par Durmir, 18 mars 2010 - 05:53 .

[LH000]

Durmir wrote...

Usually, when intelligent people have nothing to say, then they say nothing
Obviously some people don't meet the requirements, though

Although I had something to say, I will not argue with you about my intelligence. In fact, I do not claim to be very smart... Still, I can see that problem with difficulty cannot be (appropriatly) solved just by adjusting hitpoints or damage of enemies. Other reason than that I and others have already stated is that there are not much different strategies you can use in fights. So what would change with greater dmg/htp? Fights would be just probably longer, or unbeatable. No much more skill required, I think. Just more patience. Though I may be wrong, of course. 

Durmir wrote...
Oh, btw, I don't say I'm a future nobel prize in economics, nor I'm even someone known, I just say that I probably know more in economics than 95% of people (which doesn't mean I'm even good at it, I'm just less bad than others ) thanks to my studies and job. Nothing amazing in it. But I would be unlucky indeed if "Sloth of Doom " was one of the 5%
That's why I'm laughing when I read his comments, especially when they are SO wrong ^^

Unless you are managing company with 5 *10exp9 $ cashflow a year, or something, it is quite possible that many people here have similar knowledge of economics to you.

[Sloth Of Doom]

See, Dumir believes that anyone who doesn't agree with him is stupid and a troll, and anything they say is 'random junk'.



Apparently when you are better than 95% of the world at economics (The other 5% is all BusomJack) you learn that expending resources to appease a very small percentage of your customer base makes more sense than using those same resources to appease the majority.

[traversc]

Definitely agree.



The difference between easy mode and nightmare mode is negligible for an experienced gamer. It certainly WOULD be possible to ramp up the difficulty be tweaking a "few lines of code" (e.g. increasing damage, increasing health) but it really doesn't fix the core issues that make the game imbalanced. And as others have said, appealing to such a simplistic fix would make some fights extreme/impossible while not really having an effect on others.



There are lots of design issues that should be fixed/improved. Bad AI, overpowered talents/spells (mana clash, force field), overpowered game mechanics (defense stacking, spell resistance) etc.

[Andari_Surana]

/Agree OP, TraverSC, Gliese
/Strongly Disagree Sloth

I would like to see much more difficulty on nightmare.
This game is sarah-palin simple once u figure out the basics.

@ sloth, i really don't see your 2% number of players interested in more difficulty having any basis in reality. And i think your "common sense" and "average grasp of marketing" comments against the OP demeaning and unwarranted. I've actually seen a number of other posts asking for more difficulty or more balanced mechanics.

If you compare DA to your average dungeon crawl in an MMO in terms of difficulty it comes up lacking by quite a bit. And there's no shortage in the MMO market, ex. WOW having 12 million subscribers each month. What i'm saying is, I think you're wrong, I think there's a market for a more challenging difficulty

Most of us came from Baldurs Gate and that game on its highest difficilty setting was IMO 10x harder than this game.
And that game was hands down the most popular RGP ever - and the sole reason why dragon age received such pre-release publicity and ultimately success - because it was made by bioware, the same publisher as DA.

Bladur's gate incorporated complex character design, and a fairly intricate and balanced rule system based off of D&D. And many of us who flocked to the game (myself included) had never played D&D except by learning it through computer adaptations. The success of a broad range RPGs, be it WOW, BG, Diablo, Sacred is largely dependent on interesting skill selection and adequate challanges to pit oneself against. Thats why all these successful games have released additional content to offer more of challenge to their players. Wow is always releasing a new raid more difficult than the last; diablo had hell lvl, then added uber baal, mephisto; sacred had hyperborian difficulty level.

Actually, to say BGII or throne of Baal was 10x harder on difficult than DA is kind of a understatement, beacuse there's so many things in DA that make your character invincible.

To name a few:
1- 100% spell resistance. (dead mages)
2- Mana clash (dead mage).
3- forcefield + AE (dead melee)
4- Arcane warrior + healer...
5- Unresistable crowd control: forcefield/Crushing Prison/freeze (last one b/c of bug)
6- Death combos that worke against almost anything (ex. entropic death)
7- Ability to spam heal (heal spell every 5 secs, regen, xNum Mages, Potion ever 5 sec, sperate timer for each potion potency). 

You basically have to think as a gamer how your going to handicap yourself to make this interesting.
As soon as the fan base realizes that the game can't offer any more difficult challanges than its previously thrown at you because the mechanics are FUBAR  the fan-base will leave.  And in this game, that happens fairly early.

Gliese wrote...
As for making money, the BG series gave Bioware an instant sale in DAO for me, the same currently does not hold true for their next RPG. They will have to work to earn my money next time.

Ditto.

Modifié par Andari_Surana, 18 mars 2010 - 06:32 .

[AlanC9]

Durmir wrote...

It's in french, but as I play with an english version of the game, all screenshots / names / equipments are exposed in english. So you may understand.

 Google Translate does just fine with it.

Anyway, however you get ANY game to be easy is by using the game mechanics at your advantage. It's even the way to win any game, I guess... So I'm ok with that. If some mechanics make the game too easy, the mistake is not the player's one

Sure, but I see that as a fool's game. Here you are, complaining about the game being easy because you tried to make it easy. As Dr. Phil says , how's that working for ya? (American TV reference).

One of these days there will be an AI that can cope with kiting, I suppose. Until there is, I just don't do it.

[k9medusa]

Andari_Surana wrote...

/Agree OP and TraverSC
/Strongly Disagree Sloth

@ sloth, i really don't see your 2% number of players interested in more difficulty having any basis in reality. And i think your "common sense" and "average grasp of marketing" comments against the OP demeaning and unwarranted. I've actually seen a number of other posts asking for more difficulty or more balanced mechanics.

After look the polls ( Mine and other Poster's), it seems most people like Normal over any other settings.

Modifié par k9medusa, 18 mars 2010 - 06:37 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think most DA players come from playing BG?



I have no idea how man copies BG sold, but considering it is ten years old (when the gaming market was much smaller) and was only released for one platform I am willing to bet it has sold less copies than many people think. If someone has an even semi-reliable link to sales numbers i would be interested to see it.



I agree that DA is extremely easy for myself and a lot of other experienced gamers. in fact I am wiling to bet you could find almost 1000 people on these boards that would agree, if you were really serious about it. Hell, I'll be generous and say you could find 2000. Of course, I am also certain that you could find an equal number of people that think it is too hard.



Of course, only a small percentage of game owners use the forums, but t is safe t assume that people with strong opinions either way are more willing to speak up. Even if only 1 in 10 take the time we are going to be sitting on what, 20,000 people that feel so strongly about the game being so easy that they will never buy any further DLC for it and boycott Bioware forever? I doubt it is even that high, but hell, lets go with that. The truth is a forum is a terrible place to get a proper sampling of your demographic since it will invariably be filled with various types of fanatics and extremists.



The truth is most people aren't going to break down crying if a game is too easy. They tend to be a very vocal minority. The fact is most people don't care enough either way about the difficulty for it to really effect future purchases.

[Durmir]

LH000 wrote...

Durmir wrote...

Usually, when intelligent people have nothing to say, then they say nothing
Obviously some people don't meet the requirements, though

Although I had something to say, I will not argue with you about my intelligence. In fact, I do not claim to be very smart... Still, I can see that problem with difficulty cannot be (appropriatly) solved just by adjusting hitpoints or damage of enemies. Other reason than that I and others have already stated is that there are not much different strategies you can use in fights. So what would change with greater dmg/htp? Fights would be just probably longer, or unbeatable. No much more skill required, I think. Just more patience. Though I may be wrong, of course. 

Durmir wrote...
Oh, btw, I don't say I'm a future nobel prize in economics, nor I'm even someone known, I just say that I probably know more in economics than 95% of people (which doesn't mean I'm even good at it, I'm just less bad than others ) thanks to my studies and job. Nothing amazing in it. But I would be unlucky indeed if "Sloth of Doom " was one of the 5%
That's why I'm laughing when I read his comments, especially when they are SO wrong ^^

Unless you are managing company with 5 *10exp9 $ cashflow a year, or something, it is quite possible that many people here have similar knowledge of economics to you.

I'm sorry, I didn't target you, of course.
And I'd add that if you know how to calculate a simple integer, it just doesn't make you good at maths. But it makes you better than 95% people in the world at maths.
Same here, reading what kind of stupidity "Sloth of Doom" is thinking to be "common sense in economics", I know I'm much better than him.
To him, btw :
If he had the "common sense in economics" he's talking about, he would know how much trust is what rules most of modern economics (with all what's right and wrong). Just lose the trust customers and partners have in you, and you are doomed to bankrupt in a medium time.
That's why EA changed its policy towards customers and partners (especially developpers) those last years : they realised how much they were going to lose. So they decided to do something about how people see them.
That's what most companies do : using money to do something which isn't rewarding in coin. For example philantropy, or whatever. But it's not as simple, I'm not going to explain you how economics work, you wouldn't for sure understand. Just know that you can't baffle the trust of your customers if you want to make money in the future.

Just open a book if you don't believe me, but it seems "common sense" agrees with me, anyway.

I'm neither saying that everybody who don't agree with me say random junk. I just said this about you, "Sloth of Doom", cause it's obviously what you do. As I said before, if everybody who is concerned by hard and nightmare modes disagree with me, then I am wrong, not the others. But as long as you'll keep trolling, not giving a simple true argument, just in hope I'll lose my self-control (cause I don't see any other reason why you are so rude), then yes, I won't listen to you, man.

Finally, if you think this topic is dumb, why do you even come here ? Please go bother someone else.

Modifié par Durmir, 18 mars 2010 - 06:37 .

[AlanC9]

Andari_Surana wrote...
1- 100% spell resistance. (dead mages)
2- Mana clash (dead mage).
3- forcefield + AE (dead melee)
4- Arcane warrior + healer...
5- Unresistable crowd control: forcefield/Crushing Prison/freeze (last one b/c of bug)
6- Death combos that worke against almost anything (ex. entropic death)
7- Ability to spam heal (heal spell every 5 secs, regen, xNum Mages, Potion ever 5 sec, sperate timer for each potion potency). 

I'm not too compelled by some things on this list

3 is an obvious AI exploit. 7 is awfully expensive if you rely on the potions , and Heal spells don't heal that much. 5 only takes out 1 enemy, so hardly makes you invincible.

Of the rest, I agree that 1, 2, and 6 represent bad design. Probably 4 too -- I've heard bad things about AWs so I don't play them.

[Durmir]

I would add an 8 :



8) Full dex-based characters, like DW dagger duelist. It gives you more than 170 in defense. Nobody can touch you.

[Sereaph502]

Durmir wrote...


I think I know more about economics than you do

If you did, you'd realize that bioware is trying to maximize their profits.

Spending the time and resources just to make one difficulty mode harder is a loss of profit, as is making their games so hard that they only apply to a certain "niche" of gamers.

The majority of gamers out there are not pro ub0r1337hax0rz that can play through nightmare difficulty with their eyes closed.  The majority of gamers are people who would rather play a game for the story, not dieing over and over on an encounter until they find the magical way to beat it.  So where do you think bioware will focus their sales?  On the minority of people that'll whine and complain about the game not being hair pulling hard?  Or the people that would rather be able to get through the game without having to reload a fight every five seconds?

Economics would tell you that they would focus on the latter.  If you "knew more about economics" than Sloth, then you would know this.

So yes, Sloth of Doom is right:  Failing to understand that the hardcore gamer isn't the majority population and games aren't designed with them in mind doesn't make people like Sloth or anyone else that disagrees with you trolls.  If anything, the trolls are the ones complaining about the game being "too easy" when they could easily go to www.dragonagenexus.com and search for an ub0r l33t hardcore mod themselves.

Modifié par Sereaph502, 18 mars 2010 - 06:51 .

[0LunarEclipse0]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

User - Comprehension epic fail , common sense please do something.

You can't expect any game by an developer to somehow magically be able to suit the playstyles and abilities of every person in the world. I too find the game quite easy, but I realize that if they made things too difficult they would drive away the majority of their customers Adjusting nightmare to be more difficult in order to appease a minor percentage of users would take time and resources away from developing things that would benefit the majority and (I know this sounds crazy) make Bioware money.

Saying an official fix would be closer to what the developers intended is fallacious, since the 'intended' difficulty is obviously what they released.

Sloth of Doom does it again.

[k9medusa]

And the polls show most people like normal, sorry, that leave people like the OP in the dark for the reason that is said already. (To see the numbers for yourself, just look at my above post)

[spectralpulse]

The difuculty is most likely by design. Wanting higher difficulty is understandable but it's still boils down to a personal prefrence. The game was built around allowing user made mods. I suggest you excercise that freedom.

Modifié par spectralpulse, 18 mars 2010 - 06:56 .

[Andari_Surana]

k9medusa wrote...

Andari_Surana wrote...

/Agree OP and TraverSC
/Strongly Disagree Sloth

@ sloth, i really don't see your 2% number of players interested in more difficulty having any basis in reality. And i think your "common sense" and "average grasp of marketing" comments against the OP demeaning and unwarranted. I've actually seen a number of other posts asking for more difficulty or more balanced mechanics.

After look the polls ( Mine and other Poster's), it seems most people like Normal over any other settings.

Well u quoted me saying sloth was wrong about only 2% of players wanting greater difficulty options (a harder nightmare), and your two polls(for the short while the've been up) show a plurality of players play on normal.  But adding up your two polls also shows that 1/3 of players play on nightmare, and a majority of players play on "hard" or "nightmare" settings.    Forgive me if your numbers change, but your poll hasn't been up long.

I don't know whose point u think those polls support, but if 1/3 of players are playing on nightmare, i think thats sizeable enough to warrant a discussion as to whether those players are satisfied with the difficulty and challenge.  And it think it more than refutes the 2% claim.

Modifié par Andari_Surana, 18 mars 2010 - 07:07 .

[k9medusa]

It is an open poll (the numbers will change) and 17 votes for easy, 35 for normal, 18 for hard and 17 Nightmare, so normal is winning the race thus far

[Realmzmaster]

@Durmir,

Sloth of Doom is not a troll. I found his posts to be both informative and at times entertaining.

Adding more health to the enemy or increasing their damage capability does not make for a harder level. It simply makes the battles longer and boring not necessarily any harder.

I was a software programmer (I am retired), it is not always as simple as fixing a few lines of code. Also modders are talented people who know their way around programming languages and code. Give us the tools we can tweak and solve the problems in the code.

But it would still take modders years to singlehandedly create a game like DA:O from scratch. No one person is going to be able to do it. It is easier to build on someone else's work especially if given a half way decent toolkit.

It is easier to correct someone else's mistakes if the code is properly docummented.

I can assure everyone that bugs occur in any and every program. I have yet to see anyone or team write a perfect error free program especially one with hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of lines of programming statements.

Even alpha and beta testing will not find everything. When I was coding my team had an army of beta testers to test the programs before putting them into production. Even then users would find ways to break the system that testers never had happen.

Also it is easy for a modder to focus on say changing the difficulty level of nightmare, because they do not have to worry about the overall affect on the game. You use the mod at your own risk.

Which is why some gamers are having problems with installing and playing Awakenings. They have to turn the mods off because it is breaking a part of the expansion.

It is easy to sit back and armchair general a situation. Also some problems have nothing to do with programming, but are a design decision. The programmers job is to implement the design.

Unfortuately AI is always tough to implement and will never approach the intelligence or cunning of a human opponent.

I am not making excuses for Bioware some things could have been done better, but I do understand the enormity of the task. The developers primary responsibility is to please the majority of their audience. Someone is always going to be displeased no matter what the developer does.

Some gamers think the combat gets in the way of the story, others think the combat is too easy on all levels and other think it is too hard. Some gamers had problems on easy. Bioware had to issue a patch to make easy easier. The developer has to find that sweet spot and make money at the same time or go out of business.

[Durmir]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Durmir wrote...


I think I know more about economics than you do

If you did, you'd realize that bioware is trying to maximize their profits.

Spending the time and resources just to make one difficulty mode harder is a loss of profit, as is making their games so hard that they only apply to a certain "niche" of gamers.

The majority of gamers out there are not pro ub0r1337hax0rz that can play through nightmare difficulty with their eyes closed.  The majority of gamers are people who would rather play a game for the story, not dieing over and over on an encounter until they find the magical way to beat it.  So where do you think bioware will focus their sales?  On the minority of people that'll whine and complain about the game not being hair pulling hard?  Or the people that would rather be able to get through the game without having to reload a fight every five seconds?

Economics would tell you that they would focus on the latter.  If you "knew more about economics" than Sloth, then you would know this.

So yes, Sloth of Doom is right:  Failing to understand that the hardcore gamer isn't the majority population and games aren't designed with them in mind doesn't make people like Sloth or anyone else that disagrees with you trolls.  If anything, the trolls are the ones complaining about the game being "too easy" when they could easily go to www.dragonagenexus.com and search for an ub0r l33t hardcore mod themselves.

Once again, people who ask for a higher difficulty are actullay the majority.

Then, no, once again, you're wrong about how you think economics work. Of course developpers will try to content most players than minorities (if even my ask was one of a minority). But it would be stupid not to consider others when they can. Cause if trust/faith is broken, even with a minority, then the company is wrong and is going, to a wider term, to lose money. See at what's happening to Ubisoft today. Their games are about to be boycotted, because it doesn't fit a minority demand, which is legitimate (that's why the boycott is to happen).
Look around you, there are plenty of examples that say exactly the contrary of what you say.

"People, know that I care about each of you, personnaly, and I want to make a better world for each of you" sounds like a political way to speak. Why do you think they are trying to make people thinking it's true ? Do you really think companies are so different ? That's just an example, of course this example doesn't discribe the whole thing.

[k9medusa]

Realmzmaster wrote...

@Durmir,
Sloth of Doom is not a troll. I found his posts to be both informative and at times entertaining.

Me too (At times a little harsh, but funny)

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Durmir wrote...

booke63 wrote...

Are you on a PC? Here is maybe a mod for you:

http://social.biowar.../9/index/232387

Thx for the tip


Anyway, I don't think it's "ok" to consider mods to get what the core game should provide. I'd really prefer an "official" fix, as it'll be closer to what developpers intended for the game,

You read their minds? Are you a Jedi?

I think since the devs made the game, then the game as it is, is generally speaking what they "intend" for it to be.

The ability to mod it is there for people like you who are not 100% happy with that, but are happy enough to pay for a base product and then tweak it a little to your own satisfaction.

Have fun.