105 réponses à ce sujet

[Atmosfear3]

Baseless assumptions are baseless.



Moving along.

[95Headhunter]

Ecael wrote...

There is no need to be informative when this topic has been discussed over and over again. There is even a thread for it in the other forum, so posting it here is absolutely unnecessary. The mods would agree with this point.

Mass Effect 2 may be mostly shooter, but it is still more RPG than most RPGs are. Apparently people define RPG as "Filled with Boring Timesinks game" rather than "ROLE PLAYING GAME". For Mass Effect 1, its:

-Driving the Mako in main missions before realizing that ignoring enemies is faster (like Ilos Trench Run)
-Driving the Mako on empty, mountanous terrain for almost every side quest
-Having to run/drive back to where I started after completing a quest
-Ridiculously slow elevators
-Getting stuck in said ridiculously slow elevators and having to restart
-Having to restart from a point one hour ago because the game hardly autosaves
-Unskippable cutscenes of the Normandy or the Mako landing
-Loading screens, even with the elevators in place (Citadel Rapid Transit and pre-game Load)
-Decontamination in progress. Stand by. Decontamination in progress.
-Having to play the game 3 times over with one character in order to reach the highest level of tedium
-Having to play the game 5+ times over with one character in order to get the most skill points
-Immediately dying after getting knocked out of the terrain/level by biotics instead of getting back up
-Mineral, relic and artifact scanning and collection quests
-Realizing that you only actually have 4 different weapons with different textures and accuracy
-Only using one of those 4 weapons depending on your class
-Having to sort through your inventory of items to figure out what is actually useful
-Having to sell your inventory of completely useless items after every mission
-Having to omni-gel your inventory of completely useless items after hitting the credit cap
-Having to repeatedly exchange armor and armor mods with a slightly newer version of itself
-Having to switch between Tungsten/Shredder ammo between enemy types (for each squadmate)
-Spending a minute firing at a krogan spamming Immunity even with the weapon/ammo mods, and then another minute if Warp or some other skill doesn't hit him right as he dies
-Every side quest making use of either:
----A generic freighter
----A generic two floor facility
----A generic science facility

Mass Effect 1 had a great story with great characters, but I couldn't bring myself to play through it again after realizing that you spend half the game doing nothing (and no, that does NOT make it an RPG). Looking at it through rose-colored glasses doesn't change that fact.

If I were to list the timesink-related gameplay flaws of Mass Effect 2, the list would be a lot shorter.

This is quite possibly my favourite post on these boards outside of Ugly Shepard and the MSPaint thread. If only the forum auto-posted this at every complaint thread...

[TheCrakFox]

Bioware have already confirmed that the development cycle for ME 3 will last about 2 years.



The date you're referring to is rumoured to be the release date for a large expansion pack.

[Karstedt]

Goodwood wrote...

1. With ME2, BioWare has confirmed that the engine is finished; they don't anticipate any more tweaks, so the system we have in ME2 is likely to be the one we get in ME3, with the possible exception of different guns (but that's a given anyway).

Where did you read that? I sure hope that's not true.

[Karstedt]

95Headhunter wrote...

Ecael wrote...

There is no need to be informative when this topic has been discussed over and over again. There is even a thread for it in the other forum, so posting it here is absolutely unnecessary. The mods would agree with this point.

Mass Effect 2 may be mostly shooter, but it is still more RPG than most RPGs are. Apparently people define RPG as "Filled with Boring Timesinks game" rather than "ROLE PLAYING GAME". For Mass Effect 1, its:

-Driving the Mako in main missions before realizing that ignoring enemies is faster (like Ilos Trench Run)
-Driving the Mako on empty, mountanous terrain for almost every side quest
-Having to run/drive back to where I started after completing a quest
-Ridiculously slow elevators
-Getting stuck in said ridiculously slow elevators and having to restart
-Having to restart from a point one hour ago because the game hardly autosaves
-Unskippable cutscenes of the Normandy or the Mako landing
-Loading screens, even with the elevators in place (Citadel Rapid Transit and pre-game Load)
-Decontamination in progress. Stand by. Decontamination in progress.
-Having to play the game 3 times over with one character in order to reach the highest level of tedium
-Having to play the game 5+ times over with one character in order to get the most skill points
-Immediately dying after getting knocked out of the terrain/level by biotics instead of getting back up
-Mineral, relic and artifact scanning and collection quests
-Realizing that you only actually have 4 different weapons with different textures and accuracy
-Only using one of those 4 weapons depending on your class
-Having to sort through your inventory of items to figure out what is actually useful
-Having to sell your inventory of completely useless items after every mission
-Having to omni-gel your inventory of completely useless items after hitting the credit cap
-Having to repeatedly exchange armor and armor mods with a slightly newer version of itself
-Having to switch between Tungsten/Shredder ammo between enemy types (for each squadmate)
-Spending a minute firing at a krogan spamming Immunity even with the weapon/ammo mods, and then another minute if Warp or some other skill doesn't hit him right as he dies
-Every side quest making use of either:
----A generic freighter
----A generic two floor facility
----A generic science facility

Mass Effect 1 had a great story with great characters, but I couldn't bring myself to play through it again after realizing that you spend half the game doing nothing (and no, that does NOT make it an RPG). Looking at it through rose-colored glasses doesn't change that fact.

If I were to list the timesink-related gameplay flaws of Mass Effect 2, the list would be a lot shorter.

This is quite possibly my favourite post on these boards outside of Ugly Shepard and the MSPaint thread. If only the forum auto-posted this at every complaint thread...

I actually find this kind of reply even more useless that the people who just pop in to say, "quit whining!".

It bascially, assigns all of those listed properties as something the OP apparently misses... which is just ridiculous. The OP didn't mention any of that stuff. I mean, if your bank were to erroneously charge you a $5 fee and you called to complain/correct it; is it reasonable for them to respond with, "Well, I suppose you'd just like to go back to putting money in jars and buring it in the backyard! Why don't we just go back to the time of the dinosaurs for that matter where you can be eaten and have no worries about money! You should just shut up and pay the fee!".

While the "whiners" often have at least one specific concern in their posts. Those people on the "sit down and shut up" bus are 99% useless. They rarely have a counterpoint outside of insisting that the person complaining wants a 30 minute elevator ride. And far be it for me to speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure that nobody wants a 30 minute elevator ride, and certainly nobody has asked for one.

The OP of this thread is clearly concerned about a short development cycle. Not a single item on that list was mentioned by the OP. The only posters that bothered to be relevant were the ones that addressed the issue of the cited release date as most likely being an expansion, and that the ME3 date is supposed to be in 2012 (The year the world ends!).

[Sesshomaru47]

Ecael wrote...


-Every side quest making use of either:
----A generic freighter
----A generic two floor facility
----A generic science facility

Mass Effect 1 had a great story with great characters, but I couldn't bring myself to play through it again after realizing that you spend half the game doing nothing (and no, that does NOT make it an RPG). Looking at it through rose-colored glasses doesn't change that fact.

If I were to list the timesink-related gameplay flaws of Mass Effect 2, the list would be a lot shorter.

At least Mass Effect 1 had side quests even if getting to them did involve driving over a generic planet and going through a generic building. It was betting than plugging a battery into a robots backside repeatedly or killing some bluesuns and no one ever saying anything!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Gears of War 2 completely missed the point of what made Gears of War 1 a good game gameplay wise and hell they even managed to make the story and characters dumber.



I do not see that happening with ME 3

[Urazz]

Ecael wrote...

CTM1 wrote...

Instead of trying to scare him off (as at least a couple of you seemed to have in mind), why not just be informative for the sake of helping? A couple others have gone this route too, which I think this thread needs more of, whether it's your opinion or helpful forum links.

There is no need to be informative when this topic has been discussed over and over again. There is even a thread for it in the other forum, so posting it here is absolutely unnecessary. The mods would agree with this point.

Mass Effect 2 may be mostly shooter, but it is still more RPG than most RPGs are. Apparently people define RPG as "Filled with Boring Timesinks game" rather than "ROLE PLAYING GAME". For Mass Effect 1, its:

-Driving the Mako in main missions before realizing that ignoring enemies is faster (like Ilos Trench Run)
-Driving the Mako on empty, mountanous terrain for almost every side quest
-Having to run/drive back to where I started after completing a quest
-Ridiculously slow elevators
-Getting stuck in said ridiculously slow elevators and having to restart
-Having to restart from a point one hour ago because the game hardly autosaves
-Unskippable cutscenes of the Normandy or the Mako landing
-Loading screens, even with the elevators in place (Citadel Rapid Transit and pre-game Load)
-Decontamination in progress. Stand by. Decontamination in progress.
-Having to play the game 3 times over with one character in order to reach the highest level of tedium
-Having to play the game 5+ times over with one character in order to get the most skill points
-Immediately dying after getting knocked out of the terrain/level by biotics instead of getting back up
-Mineral, relic and artifact scanning and collection quests
-Realizing that you only actually have 4 different weapons with different textures and accuracy
-Only using one of those 4 weapons depending on your class
-Having to sort through your inventory of items to figure out what is actually useful
-Having to sell your inventory of completely useless items after every mission
-Having to omni-gel your inventory of completely useless items after hitting the credit cap
-Having to repeatedly exchange armor and armor mods with a slightly newer version of itself
-Having to switch between Tungsten/Shredder ammo between enemy types (for each squadmate)
-Spending a minute firing at a krogan spamming Immunity even with the weapon/ammo mods, and then another minute if Warp or some other skill doesn't hit him right as he dies
-Every side quest making use of either:
----A generic freighter
----A generic two floor facility
----A generic science facility

Mass Effect 1 had a great story with great characters, but I couldn't bring myself to play through it again after realizing that you spend half the game doing nothing (and no, that does NOT make it an RPG). Looking at it through rose-colored glasses doesn't change that fact.

If I were to list the timesink-related gameplay flaws of Mass Effect 2, the list would be a lot shorter.

I agree.  ME2 has only one major time sink and that is scanning planets for minerals which isn't bad compared to the time sinks ME1 had.  Also, ME2's side missions were all different from each other.  Some were easy/boring as hell that it makes you wonder why they even bothered making that mission but all of them were pretty good and unique compared to ME1's side missions.

No, I think the big problem making ME2 seem less RPGish was that the loyalty quests felt more like secondary quests that affect the main quest but weren't part of the main quest of fighting the collectors.  They weren't side missions as they effected the final mission but they didn't feel vital to the overall story either.  If we had a few more missions of fighting the collectors or missions related to them or the reapers in some form, then it would've been better.

Of course the lack of squad interaction with Shepard and each other was less than stellar and that is a major part of making the game feel more RPGish as well.  Dragon Age: Origins is pretty much the main Bioware game I hold as the standard of party interaction.

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

At least Mass Effect 1 had side quests even if getting to them did involve driving over a generic planet and going through a generic building. It was betting than plugging a battery into a robots backside repeatedly or killing some bluesuns and no one ever saying anything!

ME2 had side quests.  Some were pretty easy/boring but all of them were different/unique so you didn't feel like you were doing the same mission over and over again like you did in ME1 for the most part.

Modifié par Urazz, 19 mars 2010 - 12:22 .

[282xvl]

Seems kind of ridiculous to worry yourself to tears over the length of time taken to develop a game. Within reason, time spent on a game does not necessarily have any correlation to game quality. There are plenty of examples of games that were in development for 3-5 years and were just ****** poor. There are also numerous examples of 1 year development cycles producing outstanding products. Refusing to buy a game because it was made quickly/efficiently is stupid.



That said, the 2011 announcement is an EXPANSION. Being the umpteenth person to say this does not make it any less of a perfect answer to the OP's fears and a perfect thread-ender.

[zabuza318]

[Onyx Jaguar]

zabuza318 wrote...

I'm not seeing it, is it the old lady who is next to the bald guy with glasses?

[Ecael]

Karstedt wrote...

The OP of this thread is clearly concerned about a short development
cycle. Not a single item on that list was mentioned by the OP.

Other than:
"It seems likely Mass Effect 3 is going to be the ME series' Gears of War"
"or shovelware shooters (like EAs ideal vision of Mass Effect), that's
not much of a problem, all you need is a few new guns and a new campaign
to call something a sequel, but for RPGs and frankly nearly any proper
game (including any self respecting FPS/TPS), like what Mass Effect 2
still clings to being, you need more to have a worthy sequel."
"its more likely we'll see even more "streamlining" rather than feature
enhancement, perhaps a downgrading of companion dialogue to Dragon Age
Awakenings style dialogue"

Everything on that list I just posted is essentially what people said that made Mass Effect 1 an 'RPG'. If that were the case, World of Warcraft should be the best RPG ever for the sheer amount of time you need to spend to get anywhere.

The only post on this thread that is useless is the original one. It appears no one (not even you or the original poster) is even reading the whole thread or even the thread's title (at least just skim through it!) but just the responses to it. If you actually read it, you'd realize that he's uninformed about the development cycle and uninformed to what an RPG actually is.

Sesshoumaru47 wrote...

At least Mass Effect 1 had side quests even if getting to them did
involve driving over a generic planet and going through a generic
building. It was betting than plugging a battery into a robots backside
repeatedly or killing some bluesuns and no one ever saying anything!

No, it's not, actually. At least each side quest is unique.

Most of the dialogue you get from ME1 sidequests is:
"HOLD THE LINE!"
"ENEMY IS EVERYWHERE!"
"YOU MUST DIE!

...over and over again. If BioWare knew that people liked this form of generic content, they could easily develop a content generation system like Star Trek Online and make an infinite number of star systems and galaxies with the same generic terrain and facilities over and over again. Then they could raise the Level cap to 100 so people can spend the next 70 levels grinding through the same content (but hey, it's better than playing it 5 times over like in Mass Effect 1!).

People can call me a BioWare/ME2 apologist if they like, but the fact of the matter is: Mass Effect 2 is an improvement over Mass Effect 1. EA may have a way of making generic sequels (the same way Mass Effect 1 makes generic planets and quests, actually), but BioWare does not.

[superimposed]

Bioware's characterisation was weaker in ME:2, but that's mostly attributable to the little to no dialogue available and the way it's been 'stream-lined' as opposed to simply creating 'weak characters' (Except Jacob, dull bastard.)

In terms of gameplay, a definite improvement, bar scanning and fuel-powered exploration. In terms of how they did that gameplay, perhaps not so much. None of the missions had quite so epic a feel as driving in the Mako on Noveria or Theros, or fighting on foot that Geth Colossus (Or was it an Armature?)

If you want ME:1 back so much, go play ME:1. ME:3 needs a few tweaks to avoid the mediocreness that ME:2 had, but as far as the system goes it's fine.

[Revan312]

Gameplay was fine, which is not why I play these games, the story is what draws me to an rpg and ME2's was super weak, it's been debated ad nausium in other threads but really that final "reveal" was the dumbest thing I've ever seen in such an overhyped game. (minus the retarded bosses in Ninja Gaiden)



The story is always what makes or breaks an rpg for me and after pre-ordering the deluxe edition on steam and being pretty damned disappointed with the direction the plot went, I'm gonna be doing this concerning the pre-release info on ME3

[superimposed]

http://au.xbox360.ig...2/14235014.html



2011 some time seems to be what every site everywhere is saying.

[superimposed]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

zabuza318 wrote...

I'm not seeing it, is it the old lady who is next to the bald guy with glasses?

Where oh-oh where oh-oh where is wally?

[ObserverStatus]

Q1 2011? where did you get that date? I know DA:O 2 and dead space 2 are coming out q1 2011, but ME3? Really?

[Kileyan]

Ecael wrote...

CTM1 wrote...

Instead of trying to scare him off (as at least a couple of you seemed to have in mind), why not just be informative for the sake of helping? A couple others have gone this route too, which I think this thread needs more of, whether it's your opinion or helpful forum links.

There is no need to be informative when this topic has been discussed over and over again. There is even a thread for it in the other forum, so posting it here is absolutely unnecessary. The mods would agree with this point.

Mass Effect 2 may be mostly shooter, but it is still more RPG than most RPGs are. Apparently people define RPG as "Filled with Boring Timesinks game" rather than "ROLE PLAYING GAME". For Mass Effect 1, its:

-Driving the Mako in main missions before realizing that ignoring enemies is faster (like Ilos Trench Run)
-Driving the Mako on empty, mountanous terrain for almost every side quest
-Having to run/drive back to where I started after completing a quest
-Ridiculously slow elevators
-Getting stuck in said ridiculously slow elevators and having to restart
-Having to restart from a point one hour ago because the game hardly autosaves
-Unskippable cutscenes of the Normandy or the Mako landing
-Loading screens, even with the elevators in place (Citadel Rapid Transit and pre-game Load)
-Decontamination in progress. Stand by. Decontamination in progress.
-Having to play the game 3 times over with one character in order to reach the highest level of tedium
-Having to play the game 5+ times over with one character in order to get the most skill points
-Immediately dying after getting knocked out of the terrain/level by biotics instead of getting back up
-Mineral, relic and artifact scanning and collection quests
-Realizing that you only actually have 4 different weapons with different textures and accuracy
-Only using one of those 4 weapons depending on your class
-Having to sort through your inventory of items to figure out what is actually useful
-Having to sell your inventory of completely useless items after every mission
-Having to omni-gel your inventory of completely useless items after hitting the credit cap
-Having to repeatedly exchange armor and armor mods with a slightly newer version of itself
-Having to switch between Tungsten/Shredder ammo between enemy types (for each squadmate)
-Spending a minute firing at a krogan spamming Immunity even with the weapon/ammo mods, and then another minute if Warp or some other skill doesn't hit him right as he dies
-Every side quest making use of either:
----A generic freighter
----A generic two floor facility
----A generic science facility

Mass Effect 1 had a great story with great characters, but I couldn't bring myself to play through it again after realizing that you spend half the game doing nothing (and no, that does NOT make it an RPG). Looking at it through rose-colored glasses doesn't change that fact.

If I were to list the timesink-related gameplay flaws of Mass Effect 2, the list would be a lot shorter.

Let me take a spin at this. No ones health bars matter. You throw powrs at them in  a spam as they cool down fashion. By the time you can throw, pull, or float them they are dead. No powers really do what they should, they just wear down a shield, biotic shield or armor, then the dude it dead seconds later.

All the powers do nothing but wear down a defense, then the guy dies because he only have 7 hit points. You aren't a biotic, you are a shield depleter, You aren't a tech expert, you are a armor melter, then the guy dies.

What?? You wanted to hack that big ass mech? YOu can for the 2 seconds he lives, because you can't hack him while he has more that 7 hps of life.

The combat in this game is silly, even if on hard levels. Nothing can be affected by engineer or biotic attacks until its defenses are stripped and its one sliver of life away from dying.

[CmdrFenix83]

XtremegamerHK47 wrote...

BTW, anybody who thinks ME2 was lackluster or mediocre, STFU. There was nowhere in this game where I said "This is average" or "This just sucks". I was in awe and suspense all the way through. It was memorable and amazing. A fantastic sequel. Sure, the story may seem weak compared to ME1, but the characters matter in this one. This is character driven experiance, and it was done fantasticly.

That's not entirely true.  Be honest.  As you neared the needed 200k mark for resources scanning, even the first playthrough... you were thinking "god this sucks!"  Otherwise, I agree with you and Ecael.

[Ragnadaam]

http://kotaku.com/54...-effect-in-2011



I think Op might have been referring to the statements EA has made about "far reaching" things for some of their games next year.It's already rumored that DO:A 2 will be out next year.Though I doubt ME 3 will be,probl some expansion instead.

[javierabegazo]

[Halmiriliath]

Given that the point about the release date has already been dealt with, I'm curious as to a different part of the original post.

Archereon wrote...

For shovelware shooters (like EAs ideal vision of Mass Effect), that's not much of a problem, all you need is a few new guns and a new campaign to call something a sequel, but for RPGs and frankly nearly any proper game (including any self respecting FPS/TPS), like what Mass Effect 2 still clings to being, you need more to have a worthy sequel.

I took this as meaning that Mass Effect 2 is clinging to being a self-respecting RPG. My apologies if that isn't the case, but if it is, then why do you think this? The plot develops at a similar pace and style to the first Mass Effect - which I'm assuming you believe is a self-respecting RPG - while the improvements in the second instalment were a huge step forward in terms of immersion for me. As I'm currently replaying the original Mass Effect again for the first time since I played the second, what has struck me is how much the huge number of (sometimes irrelevant) side missions, all carried out in identically skinned bases, damages my sense of being immersed in the Mass Effect universe and the story of Commander Shepard. For me, Mass Effect 2 addressed that almost perfectly, and - with the exponential increase in dialogue and what I felt to be a great improvement in voice acting - I felt more involved from the beginning to the end than I did in Mass Effect 1.

Don't get me wrong, I love the first Mass Effect, but I feel that Mass Effect 2 adds, not detracts, from the Mass Effect franchise as an RPG. While the great improvements in combat may have attracted a different kind of gamer, it doesn't alter the fact that Mass Effect 2 is still at heart an RPG. 

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 19 mars 2010 - 03:49 .