jklinders wrote...
Analogy fail, because in the case of the Collector ship and Shepard, there is only on eobjective and one Special ops team. In principal you are correct, but your example does not apply. And despite our frequent disagreements you are smart enough to know that.
DPSSOC wrote...
Asheer_Khan wrote...
Grayson was alone... my Shepard is not and that's biiiig difference.
Beside if from the very beginning Timmy would play fair "maybe" our "cooperation" will still pending but after his famous "Cerberus is humanity" crap all was over because i will NEVER EVER support another galactic HITLER!!!!!!!
Ok #1 "another"? #2 When humanity's greatest hope was lost who brought it back? When everyone else had grown complacent who remained vigilant? When human colonists were being taken in the hundreds of thousands who stood and said no more? When the enemy was massing at our gates who made sure they did not go unopposed? The Council failed, the Alliance failed, only Cerberus was willing and able to do what was necessary to stop the Collectors, and it is only because of them that humanity has any future at all. So in essence yes, Cerberus is humanity.Goodwood wrote...
If TIM has a single intelligent bone in his body, he'll forego active revenge on Shep and crew for giving him the finger, for obvious reasons.
Why it's not like you can find the man. With nearly unlimited resources he can hound Shepard to death (his or yours) without any fear of retalliation.
Another reason to return the Normandy is the crew. With only 2 exceptions the crew of the Normandy work for Cerberus, we have no guarantee they'll hop on the "Screw TIM" bandwagon. Even if you've managed to win over every man and woman on the ship there's still the very real threat TIM could pose to their families that might compel them to action, Shepard can't protect them all. Not to mention the possibility that TIM put an assassin among the crew in case of just such an eventuality. Dumping the crew is an option I suppose though the question arises of where.
Zulu_DFA wrote...
jklinders wrote...
Analogy fail, because in the case of the Collector ship and Shepard, there is only on eobjective and one Special ops team. In principal you are correct, but your example does not apply. And despite our frequent disagreements you are smart enough to know that.
I believe TIM has a smart AI supercomputer to run simulations on. He p r e d i с t e d the outcome of the Collector ship raid, just like everything else.
Zulu_DFA wrote...
KarmaTheAlligator wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
Goodwood wrote...
One of the worst things you can do in real-world operations is to go in blind, and to assume that your operator(s) can handle the situation without knowing all the facts. Every good operation starts with Intelligence; anyone in the military knows this, and knows too that the chances of success have a direct correlation to how good the intel is going in. If you want maximal results, you give your forces maximal intelligence, and the resources to be able to deal with any foul-ups or unexpected complications therein. You don't throw your command into a fight without telling them what to expect; officers have been subject to court-martial, and thrown in jail, for less.
If they lose.
In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services sd that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose.
For example, you serve with special forces. Command sends you behind enemy lines to blow up some bridge at the grid reference such&such. You go in. Then they just give you out through their agents to the enemy. The enemy send their best troops to hunt you down. They search you day and night trying to confirm your location, but you are good, and not easy to spot, so the enemy randomly send in the bombers and fire missions, your squad is down to 50%, but you are tough mother, and push on to your objective, approach the bridge, and there is an ambush to finish you off. Your squad is dead, you are wounded and taken prisoner to live the next couple of years in your own crap and have torture sessions twice a day. But in the meantime time another bridge goes up at another grid reference, and a major offensive commences in that area and the enemy is unable to reinforce their lines and your side wins. Surprise, you were a decoy! That's how the military works, when the enemy has airforce of their own.
And after seeing that you expect us to play ball and continue taking orders from TIM?
You - no. Shepard - yes. Because Commander Shepard is a marine and he (she) accepted these rules when he enlisted, received his officer's commission, and agreed to work for TIM.
Zulu_DFA wrote...
jklinders wrote...
Analogy fail, because in the case of the Collector ship and Shepard, there is only on eobjective and one Special ops team. In principal you are correct, but your example does not apply. And despite our frequent disagreements you are smart enough to know that.
I believe TIM has a smart AI supercomputer to run simulations on. He p r e d i с t e d the outcome of the Collector ship raid, just like everything else.
Zulu_DFA wrote...
Goodwood wrote...
One of the worst things you can do in real-world operations is to go in blind, and to assume that your operator(s) can handle the situation without knowing all the facts. Every good operation starts with Intelligence; anyone in the military knows this, and knows too that the chances of success have a direct correlation to how good the intel is going in. If you want maximal results, you give your forces maximal intelligence, and the resources to be able to deal with any foul-ups or unexpected complications therein. You don't throw your command into a fight without telling them what to expect; officers have been subject to court-martial, and thrown in jail, for less.
If they lose.
In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services sd that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose.
For example, you serve with special forces. Command sends you behind enemy lines to blow up some bridge at the grid reference such&such. You go in. Then they just give you out through their agents to the enemy. The enemy send their best troops to hunt you down. They search you day and night trying to confirm your location, but you are good, and not easy to spot, so the enemy randomly send in the bombers and fire missions, your squad is down to 50%, but you are tough mother, and push on to your objective, approach the bridge, and there is an ambush to finish you off. Your squad is dead, you are wounded and taken prisoner to live the next couple of years in your own crap and have torture sessions twice a day. But in the meantime time another bridge goes up at another grid reference, and a major offensive commences in that area and the enemy is unable to reinforce their lines and your side wins. Surprise, you were a decoy! That's how the military works, when the enemy has airforce of their own.
Goodwood wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
Goodwood wrote...
One of the worst things you can do in real-world operations is to go in blind, and to assume that your operator(s) can handle the situation without knowing all the facts. Every good operation starts with Intelligence; anyone in the military knows this, and knows too that the chances of success have a direct correlation to how good the intel is going in. If you want maximal results, you give your forces maximal intelligence, and the resources to be able to deal with any foul-ups or unexpected complications therein. You don't throw your command into a fight without telling them what to expect; officers have been subject to court-martial, and thrown in jail, for less.
If they lose.
In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services sd that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose.
For example, you serve with special forces. Command sends you behind enemy lines to blow up some bridge at the grid reference such&such. You go in. Then they just give you out through their agents to the enemy. The enemy send their best troops to hunt you down. They search you day and night trying to confirm your location, but you are good, and not easy to spot, so the enemy randomly send in the bombers and fire missions, your squad is down to 50%, but you are tough mother, and push on to your objective, approach the bridge, and there is an ambush to finish you off. Your squad is dead, you are wounded and taken prisoner to live the next couple of years in your own crap and have torture sessions twice a day. But in the meantime time another bridge goes up at another grid reference, and a major offensive commences in that area and the enemy is unable to reinforce their lines and your side wins. Surprise, you were a decoy! That's how the military works, when the enemy has airforce of their own.
That's not how the SEALs, Force Recon, Army Rangers, Delta Force, the SAS, or any of the other Spec Ops communities these days work -- at least in the Western world. In fact, the entire analogy is not only inappropriate for this argument (which others have noted), but is complete bollocks. You do not sell out your own assets, even to further a batsh!t insane plan like you suggest -- it just isn't done. Even false-flag incidents like the Gulf of Tomkin or the proposals put forth in the Operation Northwoods document didn't call for the sacrificing of actual American lives.
Do you have any idea how much time and resources it takes to train a SEAL or SAS operator, let alone to build up a cohesive unit capable of performing such operations? A SEAL team is more precious than a truckload of diamonds. The pathos of "they knew the risks going in" doesn't exist for the military; any commander worth their insignia does all they can to bring their soldiers home and as intact as possible. Anything less is a betrayal of one's country, one's uniform, one's command and one's honor.
Goodwood wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
Goodwood wrote...
One of the worst things you can do in real-world operations is to go in blind, and to assume that your operator(s) can handle the situation without knowing all the facts. Every good operation starts with Intelligence; anyone in the military knows this, and knows too that the chances of success have a direct correlation to how good the intel is going in. If you want maximal results, you give your forces maximal intelligence, and the resources to be able to deal with any foul-ups or unexpected complications therein. You don't throw your command into a fight without telling them what to expect; officers have been subject to court-martial, and thrown in jail, for less.
If they lose.
In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services sd that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose.
For example, you serve with special forces. Command sends you behind enemy lines to blow up some bridge at the grid reference such&such. You go in. Then they just give you out through their agents to the enemy. The enemy send their best troops to hunt you down. They search you day and night trying to confirm your location, but you are good, and not easy to spot, so the enemy randomly send in the bombers and fire missions, your squad is down to 50%, but you are tough mother, and push on to your objective, approach the bridge, and there is an ambush to finish you off. Your squad is dead, you are wounded and taken prisoner to live the next couple of years in your own crap and have torture sessions twice a day. But in the meantime time another bridge goes up at another grid reference, and a major offensive commences in that area and the enemy is unable to reinforce their lines and your side wins. Surprise, you were a decoy! That's how the military works, when the enemy has airforce of their own.
That's not how the SEALs, Force Recon, Army Rangers, Delta Force, the SAS, or any of the other Spec Ops communities these days work -- at least in the Western world. In fact, the entire analogy is not only inappropriate for this argument (which others have noted), but is complete bollocks. You do not sell out your own assets, even to further a batsh!t insane plan like you suggest -- it just isn't done. Even false-flag incidents like the Gulf of Tomkin or the proposals put forth in the Operation Northwoods document didn't call for the sacrificing of actual American lives.
Do you have any idea how much time and resources it takes to train a SEAL or SAS operator, let alone to build up a cohesive unit capable of performing such operations? A SEAL team is more precious than a truckload of diamonds. The pathos of "they knew the risks going in" doesn't exist for the military; any commander worth their insignia does all they can to bring their soldiers home and as intact as possible. Anything less is a betrayal of one's country, one's uniform, one's command and one's honor.
crimzontearz wrote...
do not save them from the abduction.....even then THE most trusted agent on the normandy was Miranda...if anyone had to be the assassin it would have been her and chances are she is spending time with shepardon her knees right now......ahem....taking care of totally different matters
crimzontearz wrote...
also no one would be able to assassinate shepard on the Normandy with EDI on his side.....EDI is the Normandy now....
KarmaTheAlligator wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
You - no. Shepard - yes. Because Commander Shepard is a marine and he (she) accepted these rules when he enlisted, received his officer's commission, and agreed to work for TIM.
Isn't that what Renegade Shep is about though? Screw the rules, I do things my way.
Steel Dancer wrote...
Shepard: Hey, TIM, the Normandy SR2? The ship you gave me to defeat the Collectors? You can have it back if you want it. Upgrades and everything.
TIM: Really?
Shepard: Naaah, kidding. It's mine now, alllllll mine. The crew? Mine. Miranda and Jacob? Mine. EDI? Mine. Kelly? ..ehh, you can have her back if you want.
TIM: ...
Shepard: Wow, guess bringing me back with my memories of Akuze intact was a bad idea really, eh?
TIM: ...dammit.
That would be like going up to a police officer and complaining someone stole your marijuana. You got something stolen you weren't supposed to have in the first place.The Angry One wrote...
If he doesn't like it, he can take it up with the Alliance courts, who'll be very interested to find out how a private organisation managed to get the top-secret plans of the navy's top of the line frigate and made a copy of it.
Zulu_DFA wrote...
KarmaTheAlligator wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
You - no. Shepard - yes. Because Commander Shepard is a marine and he (she) accepted these rules when he enlisted, received his officer's commission, and agreed to work for TIM.
Isn't that what Renegade Shep is about though? Screw the rules, I do things my way.
"Pure psychopathic renegade" Shepard is. "Ends justify the means renegade" Shepard isn't. I mean he does say "screw the rules" to the boyscout / good christian morality guide, but he adheres to the unritten rules of expediencey of which I am talking about. And those rules say that it may be required at some to expend him as well.
Recall Eden Prime. Are you sure Anderson had been unaware of the incoming attack and it was just a pecaution to send him, you, a council spectre and a stealth frigate there? But he tells you: "Info strictly on the need-to-know basis", and he means it. And you accept it. Neither he tells you all he knows about Banes later on.
Shepard is a middle-ranking officer, not the hub of the universe. His mission is unique, but he is not entirely in charge of it. People in charge have him do the shooting.
Maybe, maybe not. EDI might be able to track him down by cross-checking communications logs with all known front companies. It's undoubtedly heavily re-routed but patterns ni the data might be found.DPSSOC wrote...
Why it's not like you can find the man. With nearly unlimited resources he can hound Shepard to death (his or yours) without any fear of retalliation.
...Another reason to return the Normandy is the crew. With only 2 exceptions the crew of the Normandy work for Cerberus, we have no guarantee they'll hop on the "Screw TIM" bandwagon. Even if you've managed to win over every man and woman on the ship there's still the very real threat TIM could pose to their families that might compel them to action, Shepard can't protect them all. Not to mention the possibility that TIM put an assassin among the crew in case of just such an eventuality. Dumping the crew is an option I suppose though the question arises of where.
You mean the crew who each personally owe Shepard their lives???
sergio71785 wrote...
I felt a little bad about stealing the Normandy.
But I make myself feel better by considering it as.... liberating a sentient being.
Goodwood wrote...
That's not how the SEALs, Force Recon, Army Rangers, Delta Force, the SAS, or any of the other Spec Ops communities these days work...
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 mars 2010 - 07:03 .
Sialater wrote...
sergio71785 wrote...
I felt a little bad about stealing the Normandy.
But I make myself feel better by considering it as.... liberating a sentient being.
Kinda like rescuing Moya from the Peacekeepers?
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